Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)

[Iecerint]

/confirm

[Iecerint]

RayFrost is town.

Juls I think has the best idea about how to manage duels, scum WIFOM notwithstanding. EDIT: The elaborations that pick the duel partner at L-2 and by town consensus make it even better.

Juls and Gammagooey are town.

Magister spells out what is probably the situation. Throw in some Sima Yi drama as a longshot complication depending on where SX's getting his material.

Missed that bit about Toasty, though...some pretty flagrant doublethinking going on there... O.o

RF, those 3 characters aren't literally brothers; rather, their bromance drives a lot of the drama. Zhang Fei's kinda the odd man out, though...it's mainly a Guan Yu/Liu Bei bromance AFAICT...

Ludi, which DW games have you played?

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I assumed Ludi had said something like "they're brothers" somewhere and you'd misinterpreted what he meant by that. My point was that you might have misunderstood the relevance of their being "brothers" to the likelihood of their inclusion.

I thought your pregame chat seemed like a proactive attempt to get stuff together, etc. It was the first thing that jumped out at me when I started reading. You also noticed the ML/Toasty thing that I didn't, but I'd already typed that out by that point.

Also: Hi Toasty.

[Iecerint]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 2 - Juls, Katsuki - (L-9)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

elvis_knits

- 1 - Gammagooey - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 2 - RayFrost, ToastyToast - (L-9)

Maxous

- 1 - Vi - (L-10)

mykonian

- 4 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto, C-Worl - (L-7)

RayFrost

- 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

ToastyToast

- 1 - AlmasterGM - (L-10)

Vi

- 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros, Iecerint, InHimshallibe, Maxous, mykonian, RedCoyote

I'm a HUUUUUGE Sima Yi fan, especially after playing DW7, so I kinda want it to come into play tbh. ^^~

I asked whether you'd played all the games to determine whether it was weird that you grouped the sworn brothers but not the Sun family. DW7 makes it clear that the Sun family isn't connected in the same way that the bromance is connected (e.g. SSX spends as much time in Shu as Wu), but it's not really touched on in earlier games IIRC.

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I hadn't noticed that he was implying EXACTLY AND ONLY those 3. That changes things.

Upon reread, also:

It also appears you DID know

why I choose those three characters

of Shu, (being principle proponents/brothers) yet saw fit to try painting my expression of Shu as somewhat maligned or weird or anti-town. I do not think it was at all.

As for Wu, its your guess as good as mine, considering that the Quan family has four members plus sisters.

Bold added. Ludi is assuming 3 scum per team and ruling out the possibility of 4; otherwise, his comment about Wu would make no sense. O_O

Inside information, etc.

VOTE: Magister Ludi

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Give the pinyin.

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Oh, that's Zhuge.

Yeah, he's a big deal in DW. Rivalry with Sima Yi, etc. I prefer Sima Yi because Shu is really ineffectual and unsympathetic IMO and I'm annoyed that Zhuge doesn't ditch them or at least take over the country.

/off-topic

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It depends on whether the game was balanced town v scum or faction v faction v faction.

I think it's true that site meta probably trends 3v3 for 20-sized games, though there are exceptions.

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Iec I thought that 4 scum might be balanced TOTAL until Spy said that the duel could be a double lynch instead of just a force-lynch 1 person deal.

o_O

This is crazy talk AFAICT, unless you mistyped or I totally don't know what you're claiming...

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It's relevant because we're trying to determine whether it's scummy that Ludi assumed 3v3 and discounted 4.

I suppose he ideally would've responded to this himself BUT cat's been out of the bag for a bit by now, so ye know.

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@ RC -- You don't have to have any information about the theme to interpret it. The scumtell is that he appears to know the number of scum that are on each team. This would be scummy even if he hadn't made any comments about the theme.

His comment about Wu was that he wasn't sure who the scum would be because there were 4 brothers (I assume he means Sun Jian (actually the father), Sun Ce, Sun Quan, and SSX (a sister, but idk who the 4th would be...), though I'm really not sure). This makes no sense because if there were 4 obvWu candidates, the scumteam could just be all 4 of them. There's only awkwardness if you think 4-man teams are impossible for whatever reason. Since 4-man teams are perfectly plausible in a game this size IMO, I think it's a scumslip.

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I'm not voting Ludi for theme spec. I'm voting Ludi for a scumslip. The scumslip was nested in theme spec, but the theme spec was incidental to the slip itself.

Katsuki always lurks and one-lines. That used to be all she did, but she's started to surprise me with her reads of late (cf. Square Enix V).

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@ RedC -- That part is just trying to give you the flavor background because you said you didn't know it, but the flavor background was irrelevant. The scumslip itself was very standard ("scum shows they know the set-up").

Spoiler: More flavor in an explanation for you if you think it'll help

Early in the novel the game is based on, 3 friends swear an oath to live and fight for one another, and to die together. They gather lots of like-minded warriors and form a nation that they call Shu-Han when Cao Cao forms Wei -- the idea being that they're the true Han Chinese government in exile. Most importantly, the strategist Zhuge Liang is recruited; his strategies repeatedly allow the vastly outnumbered Shu (and Wu, on occasion) armies to beat back Wei.

Wu was a True Neutral 3rd nation founded by the children of Sun Jian in response to a different warlord declaring himself emperor of China in their region. The Sun family -- most prominently Sun Jian, Sun Ce, Sun Quan, and Sun Shang Xiang, but also a handful of others -- and some friends of the family -- namely the strategist Zhou Yu -- form the Wu nation. At first it's technically a vassal state of Wei by the time it exists, though the game doesn't really ever dwell on that.

When Ludi was doing extended speculation about the set-up of the various teams, he said:

1. Shu scumteam is the 3 sworn brothers.
2. Wu scumteam is hard to figure out because the Sun family has "4 brothers and some sisters" (not sure what he meant by this -- maybe he thought Sun Jian was a brother? but that's just 3? -- but it doesn't really matter AFAICT).

This is scummy because there's little reason to believe that there will be 3 rather than 4 scum per team in a game this size (Gamma and some others disagree), but he implicitly (i.e. without reasoning his way to it) takes that assumption and uses it to rule out important characters like Zhuge Liang for Shu while ruling in some combination of the Sun family as the Wu family while saying the exact Wu combination was too hard to figure out because the number of Sun brothers was *4* (IMO, focusing on the brothers doesn't make much sense, BUT that's what he said, so ye know...).

My guess is that Ludi is ShuScum who knows that his scumteam is the 3 sworn brothers (without Zhuge for whatever reason). Then he tried to map that same concept (i.e. focusing on 3 family members or close friends) onto the Wu team he didn't know, and he had trouble. He failed to recognize that his unnamed exclusions and inclusions showed he knew something about the set-up.

On the other hand, several players (Amrun + some others?) have said that this is townLudi meta. Elaborate?

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@RF -- If I had to support another wagon, it would be the wagon on elvis. I didn't understand the wagon on myko, and I don't think Amrun is scum, either; she's doing the same logic-checking that gave me good feelings about her in Follow The Cop AFAICT. (Oddly, though, I didn't get the same <3town<3 vibes from her until I just did a reread.) On the other hand, she's also not really townhunting the way townAmrun did in that game....

Basically, I have some other suspicions, but those have lots of "well, it could be X..." dependencies attached to them. I feel much more confident about Ludi.

[Iecerint]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 3 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE - (L-8)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 2 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe - (L-9)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)

GreyICE

- 3 - Vi, Juls, C-Worl - (L-8)

Iecerint

- 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 4 - ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-7)

RayFrost

- 1 - Maxous - (L-10)

ToastyToast

- 2 - AlmasterGM, RedCoyote - (L-9)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros

TownAmrun has historically shared them, though. In Follow The Cop, I got the sense that your playstyle was "find your friends with specific questions, then lynch from the remainder." Here your playstyle seems like "find the scum with specific questions(/observations), then lynch them." Both are legitimate playstyles, but the contrast has me nervous.

P-edit: I think Amrun's given plenty of reads; they've just been scumhunt-y ones. It feels weird to think weird thoughts about someone because they're scumhunting BUT ye know.

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@RedC, I made the observations you're asking about in the votepost:

It also appears you DID know

why I choose those three characters

of Shu, (being principle proponents/brothers) yet saw fit to try painting my expression of Shu as somewhat maligned or weird or anti-town. I do not think it was at all.

As for Wu, its your guess as good as mine, considering that the Quan family has four members plus sisters.

It looks like I misremembered "members" as "brothers," but it doesn't affect anything.

I'd rather lynch elvis than Amrun.

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@RF -- If I had to support another wagon, it would be the wagon on elvis. I didn't understand the wagon on myko, and I don't think Amrun is scum, either; she's doing the same logic-checking that gave me good feelings about her in Follow The Cop AFAICT. (Oddly, though, I didn't get the same <3town<3 vibes from her until I just did a reread.) On the other hand, she's also not really townhunting the way townAmrun did in that game....

Basically, I have some other suspicions, but those have lots of "well, it could be X..." dependencies attached to them. I feel much more confident about Ludi.

But I've felt better about Amrun after part of her explanation was that this is a large game; I had that in the back of my head as I asked her about it.

Ludi is way, way more obvscum than either of you, though. Even if a player has a sense that 3/3 is more likely, they're not going to come out with it in such certain terms and they CERTAINLY won't use "not-3/3!" as a condition that rules out a set-up possibility, ESPECIALLY when they don't rhetoric-walk their way there first.

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Also, RedC, claiming ignorance one more time is going to go beyond the boundaries of SoD. <_<

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Iec gets a special mention down here because of super-hard tunneling for a pretty mediocre reason.

I disagree. I think Ludi-tier slips, provided good exposure, are the ideal basis for a D1 lynch.

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I didn't get any negative feelings about myko at all, so that push seemed totally out of the blue to me. I was surprised the wagon picked up 4 (IIRC?) votes back then. I think it's suspicious that you came up with such a different take on things from the start, which can imply a different set of knowledge about the game (e.g. if you were discounting things I noticed because you knew those players were town, etc), but I don't think the logic itself was scummy. Maybe you can re-explain what was up with the myko wagon?

I think your vote for Amrun seemed totally out of the blue to me at the time, though I see some prior allusions to Amrun now that I reread you again. Still, I think your votepost is a bit scummy. Amrun'd been relatively active IMO, even if the style was awkward given that you knew her meta. Even your text is kinda schizophrenic; you say she's scum for not scumhunting, but then you allude (disparagingly) to scumhunt-y things she'd done (e.g. meta use, and NOT vaguely -- it was the basis of an unvote, and she followed up when I asked her about it).

Re: Ludi, that's correct, but it's beyond just implicitly or passively assuming 3 teams. Rather, he presented the make-up of the Wu scumteam as a puzzle given that they have more than 3 members. A normal town response might be something like "Huh? That's odd. Maybe I'm wrong about the logic behind the Shu scumteam" -- which, IIRC, we'd already established was conspicuously leaving out Zhuge Liang. Instead, in spite of being aware enough of flavor information to the contrary, he presents the flavor as a problem with his 3-man assumption to be overcome or something. This is unnatural because his assumptions were assumptions to begin with. <_<

I have never been in a game where scum was told about the other scumteam; however, scum can probably infer whether there's another scumteam being that they know their own size.

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EBWOP: Though I'll admit that that one was O_O for me, too. <_<

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14.)Iecerint—His activity levels seem to fluctuate, don’t like how he must constantly remind us his reasons for voting Ludi

1. Uh, I've posted several times every day...

2. People (= RedC about 3 times and most recently elvis) keep asking me to re-explain the case on Ludi.

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Also, Ludi has been voting me for ages. <_<

It's more than a little weird that scumhunterRedC gives you good feelings, but you didn't read him carefully enough to recognize that he's asked me about Ludi over and over. O_o

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Iecerint

Post 394: The focus on the supposed scumslip by Ludi is being pushed a bit hard. Do you think scum would be so forth coming with flavor knowledge and assumptions? I think you are reaching here and it looks pretty scummy.

Well, scum SHOULDN'T, obviously. That's why it's a scumslip. <_<

I think flavor/set-up spec's actually a pretty easy way for scum to contribute to the discussion provided that they have the right flavor background. Also, the context was that Toasty and RF and me (and Katsuki?) had already done some flavorspec, so flavorspec was a low-awkwardness way to contribute to the game.

But really, I think a lot of it is that he's a fan of the flavor to start with.

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@ RedC -- SoD means suspension of disbelief.

@ Vi -- No, that doesn't mean my read is weaker. My point is that he participated in flavor spec largely because he is a flavor-fan. Juls suggested that scum would not flavor-spec or openly make assumptions.

[Iecerint]

One incident is all it takes. I think I'd have to discover something really incredible to want to lynch anyone else.

I'll give this game a readthrough tomorrow afternoon, though. I owe the rest of you some attention, too.

[Iecerint]

I'M DOING MY READTHROUGH. I'M ONLY ON PAGE 8. <_<

~~Iecerint's Re-readthrough~~

1. Elvis's pre-game duel strategy talk is weird. She proposes a situation where scum would never get D abilities, but includes little cautions about it as a "possible downside" of her plan. Sounds made-up. EDIT: Subsequent "should we just lynch" bit is also weird, because using duelling as a double-lynch is unambiguously better than that.

2. Vote for myko still doesn't make sense to me. I guess it evolves into a serious vote later? Will see soon.

3. Oh. That wasn't cleared up yet. RF explains things as above. In light of this, elvis's plan was just awful rather than poorly-reasoned out. <_<

4. AGM proposes alternate, closer-to-obv plan.

5. RC says that obvtown is a myth because the fairy scummonster will mess with things, then he basically proposes the same plan with different rhetoric.

It would not surprise me if RC was on the opposite scumteam relative to Ludi. His behavior toward me more recently (e.g. asking the same question of me like 3-4 times, then saying I was scummy for focusing on it through he understands, etc) could be designed to strengthen a Ludi wagon by proxy. Still think Ludi's legit, though.

6. BB makes the same silly type of argument as did RC ("BEWARE! SCUMS IN GAME!"). Possible RCscumfriend if BB is a new player.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. BB is just scummy. He's somewhat LESS likely to be scum with RC UNLESS he's a new player.

7. Amrun gets scumhunter points for #50, but calls out BB without calling out RC.

8. Elvis cross-supplies RC's silly strawman-destroying rhetoric. AGM obviously was not proposing that he personally choose the town dueler.

9. Oh. Well. Nevermind. AGM is apparently living in a crazy world. <_<

<_<

10. Gamma's RVS is +.

11. Toasty's RVS is -.

12. Elvis goes into crazy world, too, or she didn't see AGM's votepost. EDIT: She sees it afterwards. I'm surprised she didn't edit her plan after RF pointed out that she didn't know how the duels worked... O_o

13. Toasty asked DK if his vote was random, even though a large number of the RVS-y votes weren't random and a totally random vote after so much pre-game talk would appear a bit silly.

14. Maxous shifts Toasty's words around a little in 75 (1-1 /=>/ a dispute between parties).

15. Oh, nevermind. Toasty indeed meant something dumb.

What's with people making dumb claims about ideal play this game? You can't give anyone the benefit of the doubt... <_<

16. Ludi does he first laser-guided /outguess in #89. I'd missed before the possible significance of his referring to Wu as the "Quan"* family. Since Sun Quan wasn't even included in the series until DW4 (in spite of being the technical founder of Wu -- I think it's because Sun Jiang and Sun Ce are portrayed as heroic figures in the novel whereas Sun Quan is portrayed as cowardly/weak/deceitful), this is totally not a default way of looking at the Wu nation. I'd assumed Ludi was Shu s/p the 3-brothers-and-only-them thing, but it looks like he makes weird assumptions about Wu, too.

(* This is an error/slip on his part...the family is the Sun family; Quan is the given/"first" name of Sun Quan, the guy who ultimately founds Wu.)

17. RF calls out Ludi on attacking Toasty via /outguess, etc. and Ludi claims he was just making an idle observation.

18. I never really noticed how in-her-own-world Katsuki has been, probably because I didn't start posting until around the same time as her and we had some back-and-forth.

19. I disagree even more with Gamma's PoV re-4/4 now that I reread. In the simplest implementation, the duels basically give double lynches, or lets scum out themselves by duelling differently than instructed. They're a pro-town mechanic so long as they're used appropriately. Saying they "could" doublelynch town is like saying "you can lynch town by mistake; ergo, lynches are anti-town." Just sayin. I think this might be too nuanced to be part of evaluating the degree to which townLudi would infer a normative set-up, anyway.

20. I'm surprised that myko thought to vote elvis in 141. Lots of scummy things had happened in the meantime. EDIT: But he expresses feelings-type support for Ludiwagon.

21. RC's wallpost isn't really as substantive as I remembered it being. (Probably partially because I didn't really bother with most of them that didn't apply to me before tbh.) But I mean it's pretty much a list of I AGREE WITH THIS SENTENCE I QUOTED over and over. Sometimes he makes mini-quotes out of context. And he asks me to re-explain Ludislip for the first (1) time. <_<

EDIT: Well, I suppose he does give a nice summary. Surprised that he thinks Katsuki and Elvis seem town. I don't get C-Worl as scummy -- he's a non-entity AFAICT. Toasty as scum makes some sense, though.

22. I don't remember Ludi saying that RF was scummy re: elvis 154...

23. GreyICE...well...I agree with AGM's evaluation of his first posts, but I think AGM is indeed a weird player on elvis's scumlist. I don't recall her saying anything about him before this, either. Maybe it's from the pre-game yelling? EDIT: It is. I guess. But you never can tell with this playerlist. <_<

24. RC's entry into the game is worse than GreyICE's, albeit qualitatively the same.

25. BB does this lame "OMG GUYZ B CAREFUL LOL L-5 IS SRSBZBZ" thing that has to be made-up. Scummy.

26. No idea why C-Worl thinks GreyICE and AGM are scum together. EDIT: UNLESS he just doesn't know GreyICE.

27. CSL is making something up about C-Worl. I hope... <_<

EDIT: Yay! (Finally...) <_<

28. I think it's weird that inHim enters targeting CSL, of all people, his having making shit up notwithstanding.

Really, Ludi has been such obvscum so far, even more than I remembered him being, and I can't understand why everyone hasn't already lynched him by page 7 or whatever this is.

29. <3CSL<3 Though he doesn't really comment on the existing case.

30. I'm still not seeing why people thought Amrun was scum. I guess it's still coming? Trendy wagons in this game have made no sense to me at all (Ludi notwithstanding).

31.

Please don't kill him until I'm done thanks.

[Iecerint]

CLOSER, YOUR MIND'S FLYIN BLIND WITH YOUR HEAD AND YOUR FACE...

~~Iecerint's Re-readthrough~~

31. Not sure I agree with Gamma re: elvis in 194. IIRC, everyone who has tried to strawman someone this game (except once!) was actually correctly arguing whatever absurd thing appeared like a strawman s/p being simplistic or making no sense. I mean I don't blame him for not realizing that people are insane, though.

32. Oh. Well, the ZOMG LET'S BE CAREFUL-tell is totally legit re: elvis, though RedC and I think someone else (BB?) did the same thing soo....ye...

33. I wish I knew anything about DK re: Amrun 196.

34. OK, now we're starting to enter NO U territory at the following elvis post.

35. RC calls out a NEW ZLBC-tell on elvis. But he didn't really push his old one. And I don't remember him personally getting going with this one. CSL->STFU's.

36. DK calls elvis townie, claims he requested explained reads for that very reason (207). This was totally not the sense I got when he requested it, especially because someone else had already attacked the list, albeit more specifically, with a similar theme ("where iz frum?").

37. EK having possible vibes toward DK in 208...makes sense given the stated town read, but it departs from the earlier attitude...

38. Not sure why BB thinks Toasty and I are scumspots on the Ludi wagon.

39. @ Gamma

There's also the small thing about elvis responding to an invisible ghost that takes AGM's words and changes them into saying that AGM is king and decider of obvtown, lynches, and all things, but it's mostly the not caring thing.

IIRC, this is one of the anti-strawmen where you assume elvis is making it up but the other person's claims really were that absurd.

40. Juls finally gives me an inkling of why people might think Amrun is scum ("doesn't want to kill DK aggressively enough"). Which, ye know. It still isn't THAT bad. <_<

41.

1. I thought Vi was having a sincere restriction here because she doesn't tend to be deliberately annoying but... "idiot input" is my hobby and job. For serious. C-worl was quite obviously fake so I said as much. It's more a neutral thing. I don't see much point to them alignment-wise.

I'd missed this. Really? What character in the DW Universe would have that kind of PR? I guess she might be an arbalest or something, though I dunno who that'd be associated with...I guess if some Shu characters are town/Neutral, maybe Yue Ying, but I doubt she'd make the game otherwise given the implicit set-up...

42. Not sure why RF has a town read on GreyICE rE: 247. Null, sure. Town, idk.

43. I don't understand why people (other than Amrun, who explaind it) get a townvibe from Ludi's comeback post (254). Well, I mean, I DO, but I think they're missing context.

Ludi says RF isn't scum (which I think 1-2 players use as evidence that Ludi is town -- namely Amrun, IIRC), but RF had already moved on to other targets and discounted his read on Ludi, so olive-branching him is an obvious, low-risk move. I'm not sure why he singles-out Katsuki as the other "scum" on his wagon -- he says that it's a weak vote, even though that's the same as what CSL did, and then he says that Katsuki is scum for saying that CSL is doing it, which is enough POV-fails to make my head spin.

44. Not sure why inHIM votes DUM. All DUM did is say like I EXIST.

EDIT: Oh. So it's because that's all that happened. Fair enough, though WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT KILLING LUDI WITH FIRE GOD.

45. RedC attacks Toast. Also, RC asks me about Ludislip for the second (2) time.

46. I wish DUM had made his replace-in post more readable. I suppose it gives us some reads, but it's impossible to find the specific arguments being referenced without lots of legwork. Not unlike the RedC bits.

47. Don't like the Amrun attacks, probably, though I can't really tell what DUM is disliking, so ye.

48. DUM I THINK YOU ARE IGNORING LUDI ENTIRELY? WTF. (Is it just later?)

49. I have never played with RCtown before AFAICR. Just RCscumfriend in Square Enix II. He seemed perfectly capable there sooooo idk where all the hate for his town meta derives from.

50. GreyICE has weird reads.

51. GreyICE is suspicious of Amrun for going back to her old wagon after she grew disaffected from Ludi (and will explain it well enough when I pester her about it in a few pages). This is probably just an error BUT please take note @ GreyICE.

EDIT: But it looks like he also cross-supplies "usual suspects."

52. EK's vote for Amrun feels random again, though I recall from the iso that it's sorta weakly telegraphed.

53. If this is "improvedDK," I would hate to say "normalDK."

54. Amrun's explanation on leaving Ludi is still fine. I'd like her to reflect on RF's having already left him rhetorically + Ludi loving this flavor + Ludi mainly just flavor talking and then attacking those rhetoricing against him.

55. Not sure why it's scummy for Amrun to go back to her original suspect after losing interest in her second one re: GreyICE. Seems pretty basic to me.

56. Amrun is towntown. I mean she just is. Ima look at her wagon whenever I finally reach the end of this thread with extreme scrutiny.

57. Ludi does MOAR really confusing set-up /outguess, appealing to Gamma, in 365. Then he separates his post in two nicely with -------s and continues to call me scum for continuing to call him scum.

58. Did GreyICE ever answer what was wrong about Ludi's post as alluded to in 366? Cuz idk. Is it just a joke about wanting AGM votes?

59. Vi, if you've read any of my town games (and I know you've read AT LEAST 1), you know that I waffle like hell if asked specific questions that I don't think have a clear answer (re: 371).

60. RC asks me to explain Ludislip for the THIRD (3) time. Also, I missed your other thing -- I never ignore meta, and meta was the only thing making me somewhat iffy on Amrun way back when sooooo ye.

Also, not sure why he decides to vote Amrun over Toast or BB, even giving the content in the same wallpost. Hell, some of his Amrun-related wallposts sound apologetic ("Maybe you're in too many games").

61. EK 380 re: Amrun is scummy. It wouldn't make any sense for scumAmrun to deliberately subvert her advantage, unless scumAmrun DOESN'T fake townAmrun -- which I doubt, because Amrun said somewhere that she's never been lynched as mafia IIRC. And she already explained why she changed her strategy when I asked her about it. <_<

62.

You didn't answer my question: you brought up meta, not me, but my meta doesn't support your statement. I have, so far, scumhunted a lot as scum. You say it's not all meta-based, but why bring up meta when it does not support your argument at all and contradicts it?

Amrun, are you claiming a meta-contrast between your old playstyles, or just commenting that you are good at being scum?

63. Toast's townread on RedC MAKES NO SENSE. AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. NONE. AT ALL. WHOA.

Ugh, and his other reads aren't much better, but I already talked about some of those.

64.

It's more than a little weird that scumhunterRedC gives you good feelings, but you didn't read him carefully enough to recognize that he's asked me about Ludi over and over. O_o

QFT

65.

JUST A FEW PAGES LEFT. I THINK I'M ON UHH 16 OR SO IDK.

[Iecerint]

I was pretty sure it was fake due to the flavor, but I thought it was just Vi being Vi. ^^~

OK BACK TO WERK.

[Iecerint]

YOU CAN'T MISTAKE MY BIOLOGIES:

~~Iecerint's Re-readthrough~~

65. BB continues his standard FRIENDSHIP IS THE WAY TO HAPPINESS talk, but 430 actually sounds less hackneyed for some reason.

Had BB even made a comment a DUM constitute before this post...?

66. Toasty 436 looks like a lie. I have not noticed disproportionate townhunting from his posts this game, but he claims his scumlist was PoE s/p townhunting rather than scumhunting. Then he returns to old scumhunty-type things re: DUM. It's like he recognized that his scumreads had not been well-motivated, used a default handwave, and then continued to playing the game as if he had not had to address that issue. The fact that this created a discrepancy is scummy.

67. I cannot tell whether DK really believes the things he says. I guess he may? I remain amazed that this is DK when he is well-behaved.

68.

So I should back off out of fear? I think not.

lolirl

69. I have no idea what RF is talking about in 443.

70. Vi, did you ever respond to my response to your question about Ludi being a flavor-fan? Cuz your inference that I think that people who love DW are all town is a little bit crazy.

71. Ludi's notion that my vote for him is "tepid" is lolol.

72. @ RF -- it's not just one slip, it was a CONSTELLATION of slips. Gosh, I think every single one of Ludi's post-confirmish pre-KILLIEC posts has some manner of weirdness in there somewhere.

ALSO ~ I have more time now because I got my grant and will not owe my university 80K HOORAY~!

73.

Iecerint 503... Post reads as hollow.

Expectation is that a Townie with a slip would crusade with it

and/or not fail to provide outside reads regardless.

HELLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Have you read ANY of my posts?? <_<

74. Also, I didn't waffle on Amrun/EK; at least, not the way you intimate. I had some questions about Amrun in spite of a townread, got answers, and that was that. Soooo ye (re: 522).

75. When's the Toasty wagon going to explode? I'm almost all caught up now...

76. I don't know what to think of Katsuki...I get a town read on her again now that she's started posting again. even though not much is going on...

77. DK's vote for Katsuki is horrible. EDIT: Oh, the Vi thing. Is just because Toasty didn't answer, innit?

78. Ah, OK. Max notes that Toasty misstates/distorts his prior case on Vi.

79. Oh, gosh, and then he flips back and says he "added" it, which the quoted bit does not imply. Yeah...

tl;dr read summary incoming...

[Iecerint]

TOWN

Katsuki - This is mainly something I feel in my heart.
Vi - My only hesitation is the accusation of my waffling re: EK/Amrun as a fact OR scumtell for me re: this game, because it is neither, and I think she knows that. BUT idk.
Iecerint
Gamma - No complaints + good feelings. Never played with him, though, AFAICR.
Juls - I'd encourage her to review the circumstances of the Ludi post she terms "goodposting," though. Also applies to Amrun.
AGM - I feel town things. I understand his basis for thinking I'm scummy, too, unlike some other players'.

mykonian - Maybe he belongs in null? But I get good vibes. It's true that his content is a little one-note.

RayFrost - Happy thoughts; good, careful reading.
Amrun - I believe the meta shift explanation, and I think this is very similar to townAmrun apart from that

NULL

inHim - He hasn't really done anything...he apologizes for lurking every few pages and then makes a forgettable post...I don't think I ever made a lasting note on one of them
DUM - These guys are edging toward scummy, I think...the thinking pattern appears very disorganized...it's hard for me to get a sense of how they're processing things...
Maxous - My *gut* says scum, and I had been thinking scummy things before this readthrough, but I find that I agree with almost everything he says if I ignore the tone and focus on the content. So now I'm kinda null. Might've just been reacting to tone before.
DeityKabuto - I dunno this guy's meta...it's apparently different...I almost want to put him toward Town -- that exchange with Vi a page or so ago looked very Town to me, for example - but the first part of the day was very inscrutable...
GreyICE - This is not the GreyICE that I know, but the GreyICE that I know has been both town and scum SO idk. Not my scummiest read, though, for sure.
C-Worl - Never played with him before. This guy's nullish to me...there's sometimes a kind of earnest sense the way that townCMAR used to be...maybe leaning town because of that, but it may be because he reminds me of CMAR.
mykonian - Moved here; see above
elvis_knits - Moved here; see below

SCUM

MagisterLudi - Scumscumscum. Still scum. Scummier than before the reread. I would encourage anyone who found his post-flavor content a pleasant change to reread it in context. Confirmation bias is maybe confirmation bias, but I expected to get a LITTLE bit more of a balanced feeling on reread, and the opposite happened.
Bastard Bros - I think EVERY SINGLE POST has some kind of WE MUST BE CAREFUL, FRIENDLY PLAYERS TO DEFEAT EVIL kind of grandstanding theme, and I think it's fake. Have never played with him before, though. Is this a favored metanarrative of his or something?
ToastyToast - 1) His list of reads made NO SENSE, especially the "<3RedC<3 + weakIecHate" combination, which should have been impossible if he'd actually been reading RedC's posts enough to love them (i.e. because he'd know that RedC kept having me re-explain Ludislip).
RedCoyote - His wallposts don't really much content in them AFAICT in spite of the EXTREME volume, and he's got a weird interaction with Toasty going on. I may be mis-remembering, but I think I've only played with RedC in the Inception mini, where we were scum together...I'll have to look back and see if he had the same kind of thing going on there, though I think he replaced in D2 and got lynched there, so idk how much there's gonna be.

elvis_knits - This should maybe go into null...some of the posts nearer to the present give me more positive feelings...

[Iecerint]

Iec: It is a basic fact that I have drawn less supicion as scum than I have as town and that I have been more succesful as scum. Jack once described my town playstyle as "skipping in a field of mafiascum scumtells" or something. Of course, I play more as town than as scum and the pressure is higher as scum, so it's natural I have more "off" games as town.

Jack says you're a scummy townie? Idk. I thought you were obvobvtown in Follow The Cop. I believe you when you say you've only been lynched as scum, though.

[Iecerint]

NOW I AM DONE THANK GOD THAT TOOK FOREVER.

Ludi > Toast > RedC > BB, I think, as duel preferences go.

If we go with Toast and Toast flips scum, I want to think about RedC in relatively serious ways for the second one; otherwise, I will prefer Ludi.

BB would be OK, but I see the other flips as more informative.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, RedC only made 9 posts in Inception...he misclaimed early on and was lynched. So I can't really use that to compare. He didn't post these crazy walls, though, or be too vapid, though he himself was kinda the main event, so ye know.

[Iecerint]

(I should clarify that I called RedC RC for the first part of my wallposts. So yeah. Sorry)

[Iecerint]

Here's all the Ludi stuff from my wallposts; it leaves out the old Ludislip and the "spec is scummy --> specspecsped" bits:

It would not surprise me if RC was on the opposite scumteam relative to Ludi. His behavior toward me more recently (e.g. asking the same question of me like 3-4 times, then saying I was scummy for focusing on it through he understands, etc) could be designed to strengthen a Ludi wagon by proxy. Still think Ludi's legit, though.

16. Ludi does he first laser-guided /outguess in #89. I'd missed before the possible significance of his referring to Wu as the "Quan"* family. Since Sun Quan wasn't even included in the series until DW4 (in spite of being the technical founder of Wu -- I think it's because Sun Jiang and Sun Ce are portrayed as heroic figures in the novel whereas Sun Quan is portrayed as cowardly/weak/deceitful), this is totally not a default way of looking at the Wu nation. I'd assumed Ludi was Shu s/p the 3-brothers-and-only-them thing, but it looks like he makes weird assumptions about Wu, too.

(* This is an error/slip on his part...the family is the Sun family; Quan is the given/"first" name of Sun Quan, the guy who ultimately founds Wu.)

I don't understand why people (other than Amrun, who explaind it) get a townvibe from Ludi's comeback post (254). Well, I mean, I DO, but I think they're missing context.

Ludi says RF isn't scum (which I think 1-2 players use as evidence that Ludi is town -- namely Amrun, IIRC), but RF had already moved on to other targets and discounted his read on Ludi, so olive-branching him is an obvious, low-risk move. I'm not sure why he singles-out Katsuki as the other "scum" on his wagon -- he says that it's a weak vote, even though that's the same as what CSL did, and then he says that Katsuki is scum for saying that CSL is doing it, which is enough POV-fails to make my head spin.

57. Ludi does MOAR really confusing set-up /outguess, appealing to Gamma, in 365. Then he separates his post in two nicely with -------s and continues to call me scum for continuing to call him scum.

[Iecerint]

1. That's an awfully boring treatment of Zhang He.

2. On the other hand, I told SX pre-game that I wanted to be Zhang He, sooooo ye. I figure the set-up was probably finished by then, though; I don't think it was too long before the sign-up thread opened up.

3. I could see Toasty wanting to fakeclaim Zhang He...

4. But I'd think he'd come up with something better.

[Iecerint]

@ Toasty -- Scum (presumably) have access to multiple fakeclaims. My point is that given that Zhang He is among the choices, if someone likes Zhang He he's somewhat more likely to choose to fakeclaim as him. On the other hand, the chance of you being town Zhang He is just the baseline, because it's (presumably) random.

The reason I make the inference that you like Zhang He is that you are 1 gay.

@ Ludi -- Because if players express interest in particular roles pre-game, SX might be more likely to include them in the game itself. I would do that as mod, at least, because I want people to enjoy the game, see roles they enjoy, etc. As stated, likely not relevant as our communication was too close to game start, but worth mentioning.

[Iecerint]

I use "gay" the way that lesbians use it.

I thought you made a statement about "pretty much all of us" liking the flavor and/or SX games at some point in my readthrough IIRC, so I assumed you knew the flavor. Maybe I confused you with someone else?

[Iecerint]

Yeah, now I can't find it in any isos. I could've sworn it was you. <_<

[Iecerint]

Iecerint
Post 458: It does not matter if I were scum or if I were town, if I knew and enjoyed the subject matter I would probably come in excited and start discussing it. Your arguement is reaching and the fact that you have nothing else to offer looks scummy. You are pushing a lynch on something to me is not that lynchable in-of-itself. This is what scum do. They find the easy targets and they push them. You are absolutely at the top of my scumlist at the moment.
Post 470: No. I asked why scum would give away the farm in flavor spec. I think they would be a bit more careful.
Post 503: Again, your tunneling on this minor "slip" is tunneling. You should wait for a flip before you see this as anything more than just being a fan-boy.
Post 607: Your scum list are full of easy targets. Your town list is full of easy targets with the exception of a couple. Don't use red, it's the mod's color.
Post 626: Look at you immediately trying to discount a claim.

In order --

1. OBVIOUSLY. I agree 100% with the first half, at least. My point is that Ludi participated in spec because he likes the flavor. That's what created the environment where he slips. Your own paragraph logic here doesn't hold together -- participation in flavor spec is overdetermined by interest in the flavor regardless of alignment, as you yourself state.

2. I don't know what you mean by "farm flavor." I'm going to repost what I responded to and said because I'm not sure what you're taking exception to. I think this is basically the same point as #1, though:

Post 394: The focus on the supposed scumslip by Ludi is being pushed a bit hard.

Do you think scum would be so forth coming with flavor knowledge and assumptions?

I think you are reaching here and it looks pretty scummy.

My point is that he participated in flavor spec largely because he is a flavor-fan.

Juls suggested that scum would not flavor-spec or openly make assumptions.

EDIT: OH, maybe you meant that scum would only flavor-spec in minor ways? I suppose that would be ideal, but it's not what happened.

3. If I see a legit slip -- let alone a constellation of slips -- by a player, I'm absolutely going to ask that player to be lynched. (I'm very annoyed that you keep calling it a "minor" slip; there was more than one slip, with major slips among them, and then tunneling on me until the Toasty wagon took off.) If you want to call that tunneling on my part, fine.

4. This is bogus IMO. "Your reads are similar to mine; ergo, you are scummy." Or I'm assuming that's where your sense of "easy" ultimately comes from.

5. No, I provided evidence both that the claim might be legit and that the claim might not be, because I had information about Toast and Zhang He and mod-talk pre-game. This is a straight-up misrep/misread. <_<

Since RC has flipped scum, I feel relatively strongly about Toast being killed. I think he had some unusual interactions with RC's slot during the game, etc. Only scumread in Gamma's new post is BB, though, so I suppose that'll do.

I'd really like it if he'd duel Ludi or Toast, though. D:

Fun fact: Assuming Gan Ning isn't 3rd party, Gan Ning comes from Sun Quan-era Wu. Fits with Ludi's "Quan family" focus. Though I suppose it doesn't fit the "family" focus idk.

[Iecerint]

Eh but why

two

scum groups?

In flavor the principle conflict is between Wei and Shu. Wu is kind of peripheral and shifts their alliances throughout the war, though they're usually tentatively allied with Shu.

[Iecerint]

Vote: Gamma to Win

Something I just realized --

Ludi is cleared of being Wu, provided that they're an actual faction. RedC kept asking me to restate the case on Ludi over and over. That's not something you do on a scumfriend.

So his "Quan family" weirdness appears to've just been weirdness rather than a slip.

[Iecerint]

2. K
3. Looking back in iso, his slippost is actually all the same post. I think I got confused about this in the readthrough because of something RF quoted. However, that restated argument does make more sense.
4. Who else is on your scumlist, and why?
5. The reasons I supplied for it being real are A) I talked to Spy and B) A fan of Zhang He would come up with something better for abilities, which contradicted my "ToastFan picked Zhang He" theory.

[Iecerint]

Duelist Nomination: AGM
Vote: BastardBros

Juls has already said she's dueling me, and I think Vi issued a fake scumtell on me once, so I'm slightly wary of her.

Ludi's almost certainly not Wu s/p RedC flipping Wu, so I don't think he's an ideal duelist-target anymore.

[Iecerint]

Unsure how to read post. Options include:
*"Vi is scummy because of some accusation against me earlier"
*"I don't trust the scum-killing dayvig's judgment for finding scum"
Choice of AlmasterGM in light of either of these positively dubious.

I wanted to choose my #1 town read who also had town support and plausible reads as my duelist. Juls is out because she wants to duel me 100%. Katsuki I'm relatively uncertain about. You might be OK, but I think you know my meta better than to think waffling on Amrun/EK would be a scumtell for me, and I think it's a stretch to claim it even happened. RF and Amrun I think are too controversial to be reasonable choices. The remaining player is AGM; I think I'm also his #1 suspect, or I was before I caught back up, but I'm very confident he's town and so think it's plausible that he'd select someone decent.

So it's the first one of those two, but it's more like "Vi is not the player I most want to empower s/p some accusation against me earlier."

I'd really like to have Amrun duel as my #1 choice, but I doubt there's enough support for that.

[Iecerint]

Why does everything think AGM will duel GreyICE, anyway? I don't think GreyICE is even on top of his scumlist...

EDIT: He's not -->

1) Iecerint
2) elvis_knits
3) ToastyToast
4) Magister Ludi

Also, C-Worl.

From page 22.

[Iecerint]

Quick skim:

Ludi to me looks like town tripping over himself and people ganging up on him for it, ESPECIALLY with the Wu flip basically showing that the slip Iec went on about for the entire damn day doesn't exist at all.

This is not quite right. The "Quan Family" thing is innocuous because he's almost certainly not Wu. Leaving out Zhuge Liang to claim 3 rather than 4-man scumteam is still a bit weird.

@ Vi -- IIRC you can get a /self-meta thing on me fencesitting toward the end of SAIII. VPBaltar tried to call me scum for fencesitting on something. It comes up in almost all my games.

I'm about to drive home from my grandparents' and will read properly at that time.

[Iecerint]

@ Vi -- I realized on the way home that you also have my meta from Holy Orders...can't remember if it came into play there, but I was under lots of suspicion all game there, so I figure it probably did.

Re: GreyICE/AGM -- I think pretty much everyone assumed two teams upfront IIRC. The first player I remember subverting that was inHim, who suggested that the scumteam might be a Wu-Shu alliance. I think Toasty/RF/Ludi/I had all gone into the flavor-based 2-team spec to various degrees by the time GreyICE posted.

THOUGH, given that I have that chronology right, that makes GreyICE's "discovery" of the 2 scumteam possibility looks made-up unless he just hadn't read at all. And other-scumteam talk subsequent to just imagining the possibility is weird. When I read that part originally I wasn't sure if he was joking tbh. <_<

[Iecerint]

@ Gamma -- Here's the EK/AGM bit I assume we're discussing:

I'm not liking this at all. Who is coming up with the list of obvtown? You? You propose we give certain players license to duel and force others to duel and not others? No way. We rule by majority, like always in a mafia game.

Imagine the following: you and I are both confirmed town (by cop or something). We take a straw poll for who should duel and it comes out as follows:

Two obvscum players (5) - Obvtown, good scumhunter, good scumhunter, AlmasterGM, elvis_knits
Two people who we think are town, but for some reason these 7 people think are scum (7) - obvscum, obvscum, lurker, lurker, VI, null, null

My position: Fuck the straw poll, we're lynching the obvscum.
Your position: Welp, I disagree ... but I guess we'll go with the majority.

This example is clearly weighted to favor my side of the argument, but I think my point is clear - I'm valuing the opinions of certain people over others, and if it comes down to the wire, I'm not going to sit back and permit idiocracy. Scum and/or VIs should not have their votes weighted as strongly as obvtown and/or expert scumhunters. And don't give me this "well, we don't know who the obvtown are" - it's not that difficult to generally discern who is protown and who is not.

My point was that AGM was indeed proposing a deviation from majority lynches, which is what EK proposed above. That was the anti-strawman thing I was referring to IIRC.

[Iecerint]

You are getting the chronology confused. That was AGM's clarification AFTER elvis made that comment. This was AGM's original comment (before both the ones listed above):

I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.

This post legitimately begged the question of where "obvtown" was coming from IMO.

[Iecerint]

1. I got a good feeling from RF in his first posts.

2. No, it is definitely a scumtell.

3. No, you are wrong; it's just the first time that I stopped focusing on something that you didn't think was a scumtell.

[Iecerint]

There were better players to lose the duel and better players to win it. We don't even have a claim from inHim.

That was extremely premature.

[Iecerint]

@ Amrun -- Lu Bu is almost certainly a serial killer or analogous 3rd party role, especially since we know we have one. He's the strongest warrior in flavor, has a habit of killing his superiors and being kind of crazy, etc.

In internet culture, the "Don't Pursue Lu Bu" goofy translation achieved demi-meme status -- some people who don't know much about the game know about it --so I think it's very likely that he's in this game.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I see...you're arguing that Gan Ning was the 3rd party.

Very unlikely, especially given AGM's info. Does not make flavor sense, and does not allow for Lu Bu's inclusion.

One possibility is that the flavor was intended to allude to the fact that Wu was sometimes allied with Wei.

[Iecerint]

@Iecerint:
AGM said 3 anti-town factions. It does'nt neccessarily mean anything such as an SK. It could be any anti-town role.
Red Coyote flipped the red Wu.
There is the green Shu and the yellow Turban people as well right(like the Zhang's)

I'm not saying you are wrong but I would'nt completely rule out RC being 3'rd party based on his character.
Did'nt RC's character(Gan ning) have a habit of changing alleigances anyway?

Gan Ning worked for another lord before joining Wu, but he was loyal after joining Wu. That's the standard pattern for all factions if the person wasn't related to the leader or a childhood friend or whatever, though -- namely, Zhang He (= Toasty) was loyal to Yuan Shao before joining Wei. You might as well spec that Huang Zhong is 3rd party and working for that Jing province fellow (or whoever it was he and Wei Yan came from). Gan Ning was something of a pirate originally, though, which may push in that direction more than some of the other possibilities. I doubt it, though.

Also, just realized something, presumably separate Shu/Wu scumteams and Gan Ning being a member of the latter -- while Gan Ning is a very popular DW character, he's very much relegated to sub-plots in the overall historical/novel narrative. This makes me think that popular characters were chosen rather than flavorful ones, which makes me less concerned about Ludi's "3 brothers scumteam" spec, since I don't think Zhang Fei is very popular.

[Iecerint]

Myko, why'd you duel inHim instead of EK?

[Iecerint]

Oh, I think I've figured out the answer. But give it anyone.

P-edit: Thanks. Yeah, I figured it was because people had expressed inHim duel feelings, but I don't remember anyone wanting EK to do so.

[Iecerint]

Toasty posted his ability name. I see no reason why elvis wouldn't be able to.

[Iecerint]

I think Dian Wei and Xu Zhu are the most likely protective roles via flavor.

Via abilities, Cai Wenji might've made sense (I think her musou heals herself), but she just flipped (=inHim).

Xiahou Yuan's big flavor importance is his rivalry with Huang Zhong of Shu (who ultimately kills him).

[Iecerint]

Worth noting that Zhang He was a watcher/tracker or something, which also didn't make much sense other than that he's a kinda fast character.

[Iecerint]

This is myko all over again; sub-par duelist on sub-par target. I want a claim from DK and GreyICE's flip before I vote either way.

@ Gamma -- Why does having special concern about EK => +double death...?

[Iecerint]

Voting no winner at this stage with only one scum down, is dumb, because both of you could be town and 'no winner' becomes a scum tool in that case, as you probably won't see scum dueling each other.

AGM confirmed 3 total anti-town factions D1.

P-edit: I don't trust you this game, myko; no general negative feelings. And I would only expect dueling like that from someone like Furco. <_<

[Iecerint]

Vote: EK to win

@ Max -- I suppose it's irrelevant now, but Lu Bu was never associated with Wei. He served the regent of the boy-emperor of Han China, then killed said regent. He briefly served under Liu Bei (before Shu was founded), but he rose up and took over the little province Liu Bei was overseeing. Then Liu Bei complained to Cao Cao, who helped him retake the province. Lu Bu was killed after the province was retaken.

I'm happy DK claimed for us. I'd been worried that Vi might be Lu Bu. <_<

I bet I know who she is, though~.

[Iecerint]

It's hard to believe he didn't read all the spec about Lu Bu as a third party. O.o

[Iecerint]

We could just have him duel second. It's not an either/or situation.

[Iecerint]

I'd maybe prefer AGM, but Max wouldn't be bad. Even in the WCS, Max is relatively locked into yielding solid results one way or another.

I have minor residual worries s/p AGM being Sima Yi, BUT meh.

[Iecerint]

Oh lordy... <_<

If town, you would've at least asked for a claim first.

Claiming:

I'm

Cao Pi, Heir of Wei

. My duel ability, Foiled Ambition, lets me vengekill upon death. I also have a passive ability, Prince of Chaos, which stops all duels for the day once per game the first time I would have otherwise died in a duel.

In other words, the day will be converted into a duel-less day unless I win.

T-Bone is scum upset that he got caught for what he sees as a trivial reason. BB was scummy, too; his "let's be careful" rhetoric in the absence of any attempt to put his neck out to enforce a system is the thing I remember sticking out. Scum is scum.

Vote: Iece to win

[Iecerint]

Yep, you can lynch normally after a failed duel. The day continues, but no more duels may be declared until the following day.

I agree that it's more useful to scum than town BUT what'd'ya do, etc. This is part of why I've been grouchy when people duel without going through the proper steps first, though that was pretty overdetermined. <_<

[Iecerint]

I'm thinking DUM or C-Worl as the vig shot.

P-edit: Well, that complicates things. <_<

It's a surprising ability on Zhang Liao...he's not Cop-y at all...but then Xiahou Yuan isn't really an obvious doctor, either.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I missed that it's D). That uncomplicates things a little.

[Iecerint]

Iecerint 1085... Interest raised at abilities. Whimsical temptation to vote for no winner for sake of duelless Day. Superior alternative to let Iecerint lose and vengekill T-Bone. Question remains as to whether Iecerint is death preference. Correction. IF Iecerint loss does not end Day AND Iecerint loss does not imply Iecerint death, THEN previously outlined plan optimal. IF Iecerint has better ideas for who to vengekill, THEN ideas should be stated immediately.

Your post-correction explanation is correct. However, I don't get a vengekill unless I win a duel (or you vig-kill T-Bone, but that's a waste), so if I lose, I won't be able to vengekill T-Bone. The only way I can vengekill is if I won a duel in the past. Unless I am misunderstanding your idea.

As such, T-Bone'll almost certainly be dead by the time I can vengekill. Right now I think I'd use my ability on DUM or C-Worl given that T-Bone is out of the picture by that time (i.e. either because I beat him in a duel or he is lynched normally subsequent to a different outcome).

Re: Max's idea -- Lynching T-Bone normally is OK with me, if suboptimal from my PoV. Vengekills are fun.

I suppose I should clarify how my vengekill works, since it looks like Max might misunderstand. It's not that I'm a PGO-y vengekiller who kills my hammerer or kills my killer. Rather, after I die, I submit a person to kill to the Mod. So scum have no more to fear from killing me than they do from any other vig (except that my kill can be postponed by keeping me alive).

My inclination is that you should support me to win (AFTER Vi does her thing) if you think I'm town, and you should choose something else if you're wary of me.

[Iecerint]

I don't think Ludi's very likely to be scum anymore. He's not Wu due to RedC, he's not likely Lu Bu-linked due to the lyncher claim circumstances, and he's somewhat unlikely to be Shu due to the Gan Ning's flip implying a different scumteam construction philosophy (i.e. "popular" re: Gan Ning vs. "important (with questionable exclusions)" re: his spec). And AGMtown means there are no other anti-town factions.

There's still the 3/3 thing and the questionable exclusions given his "important"-type universe, but there are enough other factors that I think there are better choices.

I think duel deadline is tomorrow. Vi should probably shoot someone before then.

[Iecerint]

Impatience and frustration ensuing at addition to claim. Identification of vengekill as D) ability negates all previous plans by ViBot and others.

It wasn't an addition:

My duel ability, Foiled Ambition, lets me vengekill upon death.

Addendum. Current duel will end Day upon conclusion. Discarding previous plan of holding fire until afterward.

The current duel will only end the day if I win it. It will not end the day if something else happens; if anything else happens (shenanigans notwithstanding), the current duel will be nullified, and further duels today will be prevented. We will still be able to lynch, though.

You should still probably shoot before the duel ends in the event of my winning, though.

[Iecerint]

I understand your point Iecerint..I will take it into consideration but it does'nt exclude Ludi from being mafia indefinitly. Mafia can purposely lie about stuff like that. I have seen it before.

I doubt Ludi intentionally made scummy assumptions about the set-up. That doesn't make any sense to me. Namely, there would have been a significant chance that it would have gotten him lynched before lucky other scumflips could exonerate him on those grounds.

@Gamma: No winner = Double death of duelists - not simply ending the duel like nothing happened.

This is incorrect. If I would have died from the duel, the duel is nullified and no one dies. This applies whether I lose or neither party wins

P-edit -- Yeah...

[Iecerint]

He does die either way in that we can lynch him afterwards if the duel is nullified (nullification does not end the day), but that's all.

Make sure you don't end the day til Vi does her shot.

[Iecerint]

I'd already told you that I wanted you to kill DUM or C-Worl. <_<

[Iecerint]

O.o

I guess AGM's barometer didn't count one of Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo as scum. That, or Wu and Shu are a single scumteam. Otherwise, there's no room for Shu.

[Iecerint]

A.)Duel - You may post once per day "Duel: Player Name". At this point, only votes counting for you, the player you have dueled, or for neither will be counted. At the end of 48 hours or when one category has a majority OR deadline would activate, the category with the most votes wins the duel and all other parties are killed and the day ends.

So yeah.

Dong Zhuo is a good guess for the lyncher target. Dong Zhuo was Lu Bu's lord and adoptive father. Diao Chan, whose father had been killed by Dong Zhuo, convinced Lu Bu that Dong Zhuo was sexually abusing her and that he needed to be killed so that they could be together, etc., so Lu Bu killed Dong Zhuo.

[Iecerint]

Iecerint being scum is based on being on the coattails of catching Magister Ludi so early on (read it again; RayFrost was the one who pointed it out and Iecerint just tried to "follow along"), holding his vote there longer than most, and then dropping it for calling him confTown-by-PoE puts him high up there. In addition, consider Day 3 from T-Bone's point of view. I mentioned it before, but T-Bone chose for his duelist one of five people on his list who was second from the bottom in terms of looking scummy and/or being easy to win against. In addition, T-Bone didn't even try to win the duel. If the scumteams are somehow merged (see tinfoil hat below), that duel was an excellent means of making suicide painless. If not, the theory starts to crumble but it still doesn't answer how strange a choice of duelist that was.

Well, RF and I noticed separate things about Ludi. It's true that RF was first, though. The rest I don't understand. Do you think I'm scum with Ludi?

I don't know who was scummier than me on T-Bone's scumlist (it was just a paragraph IIRC?), but I assume he picked me because I was the player most likely to die along with him that wasn't his scumfriend.

I still don't think Ludi's scum (preferred duel targets to Ludi: basically everyone except Vi, RF, and Max), so I think he was a subpar duel target. I suppose I can't fault Gamma for wanting to be quick given the past two days. THOUGH the refusal to claim is scummy, so maybe this'll have a happy ending, after all.

I want Ludi to claim.

[Iecerint]

I meant that it was like BLOCK TEXT instead of a proper list. I thought you might have been thinking of something else. But I now see that it's indeed in a non-arbitrary order.

It's really not surprising to me that he'd choose someone other than Gamma. Gamma would, ye know, beat him, and then we'd have gotten another duel.

He was probably scum with C-Worl and/or DUM. They would've been easier to beat than me, or at least easier to "no win" with, but he didn't duel them. Ludi is a relative longshot IMO, though LudiShu isn't as crazy a possibility as LudiWu. I think I had more mud going into D3 than Ludi, so I think that's enough to explain his decision.

I do not, have not, and will not dispute that I fencesit.

[Iecerint]

I think DUM would've been easier to beat than me. He possibly could've beaten DUM altogether. I don't know why else he'd pick me over him.

What's the anti-connection for them?

[Iecerint]

Thanks. If other people had already put pressure on DUM before that (and I think they had), that's indeed a no-connection tell.

Given that I dunno why he chose me over DUM BUT w/e. <_<

[Iecerint]

I've been toying with posting this for about a day now:

Unless exactly one of the scumteams has had bad luck in some configuration each night or one of them doesn't exist as a full scumteam (likely Wu if this possibility is in play, since the main flavor conflict is Shu-Wei), I think it's possible that exactly one of {Vi, Gamma} are scum and their kill/extra duel is intended to compensate for the lack of a nightkill.

I don't know who either of them is in flavor. I had assumed that Vi was Zhang Liao, actually, until DUM claimed that Zhang Liao was a duel-activated Cop, which made no sense to me (Zhang Liao's role in flavor is to first be Lu Bu's rather-excellent underling and then to be a total badass and do a 300-y thing at He Fei Castle), but she didn't freak out when DUM claimed that, so she's apparently not Zhang Liao). There's still one more Wei possibility for her role if SpyreX is relying heavily on later DW flavor (possible, given that Cai Wenji and Jia Xu have flipped), though it could just be a Xiahou Yuan-y situation.

Gamma...same situation as with Vi re: plausible roles.

This is why the DUM claim surprised me so much. <_<

However, dealing with either of them is very high risk-reward. I think I want both Ludi's and Gamma's rolename.

But I wasn't sure if it was just paranoia, so I've hesitated to post it s/p high risk/reward.

Vi apparently has the same thought I had...?

[Iecerint]

Working in the context of {Vi, Gamma} as the source of the other scumkill, my initial bias is that it would be Vi, because I think a kill is more balanced for this than a free duel (e.g. because the free duel can be subverted, as on D2 and D3).

However, I think scumVi would be more hyper-aware of the possibility that that set-up detail would be discerned, so I don't think she'd take steps that may remove Gamma by pivoting for Ludi like this.

Soooooo ye.

<_<

[Iecerint]

1. I obviously don't currently think that you're Zhang Liao. I think Zhang Liao is either DUM or a scum fakeclaim.

2. It is more than a little unsettling to me that, in spite of the fact that I've expressed interest in joining Ludiwin with you and asked you a specific question, your instinct is to ignore the substance of what I've posted and instead discredit me on the basis of an irrelevant detail.

[Iecerint]

If that's not it, then if you were referring to Gammagooey's extra duel possibly making up for a lack of scumkill... while that would be really cool as a game mechanic, I don't think that's necessarily the case.

This is what I was referring to. I thought it was clear because of your recent Ludi support.

In addition, while there are some sketchy circumstances around Gammagooey (i.e. he's not here right now, his duels are on people who are turning Town) I don't really think he's scum ATM.

If you don't think Gamma is scum, why would you support Ludi? Because he's softclaiming being a fancy role? But Gamma has a proven fancy role...?

[Iecerint]

WHOA the duel deadline is tonight at 11:00 PM PST. <--- NB

[Iecerint]

Ludi, I think you should at least claim your D) ability.

[Iecerint]

(He posted re: myko/DUM above.)

[Iecerint]

I'm here. I keep typing things and deleting them.

I think you are somewhat more likely to be scum than Ludi, but I think your losing the duel is very high risk/reward, and I think Ludi is being anti-town. On the other hand, I think the most likely scenario is probably that you are both town, in which case I'm inclined to vote you to win since you have the proven useful ability.

So I go back-and-forth. <_<

[Iecerint]

To answer the question you directed at DUM --

I don't think there's a scum motive in what Ludi's doing, either. The players he's pushing to join his wagon have explicitly requested claim sub-details, and he's refused. So it makes me annoyed at him, but it doesn't really make me think he's scum.

P-edit:

@ Katsuki -- Bad idea. I think both town > 1 scum > both scum.

@ Gamma -- Some of what you're saying makes sense, but I also started to hit SoD on you around the same time (albeit not for the same reasons), so I'm discounting some of that. I do agree that he's Shuscum if he's scum, though.

[Iecerint]

I guess (1 scum + both scum) might be reasonable enough to chance no winner, come to think of it. O.o

P-edit: Suspension of disbelief. I started to have doubts about you around the same time he voiced them, albeit for different reasons (e.g. yet another 1-kill night).

Re: the other -- I don't think that's how I would react in scumLudi's situation at all, but I suppose you may be right. <_<

[Iecerint]

O.o

I had a passing moment of faux brilliance where I hypothesized that Gamma was Sun Ce, but then I realized that Gan Ning never served under him. <_<

[Iecerint]

...

Cao Ren is famous for defending Jing province for Wei for a long time even though he was outnumbered and for defending Fan Castle against Guan Yu. I would have inferred something defensive, but I dunno what would've made Ludi not want to claim. : /

[Iecerint]

I think it's relatively likely that exactly one of Gamma and Vi is scum...

I think massclaim is the next step. I think it's best if Gamma and Vi go first, then we popcorn through the rest.

[Iecerint]

I would prefer to have Vi go first.

[Iecerint]

Next*

I meant before myko/Katsu.

[Iecerint]

I turned my computer back on when I realized something important. ~

I strongly insist that Vi claim next.

P-edit @ Maxous -- Don't worry. I have scum for you to duel. That's plural. Like "sheep" or "fish." ~

I will be V/LA tomorrow/today (Sunday) because I'm going to a concert out of the state.

[Iecerint]

Checking in before I head out --

Vi, after claims are complete and pending total absurdity from anyone in the meantime, please kill from the set {myko, DUM, Katsuki}.

~I've got a theory~

See you tonight~!

[Iecerint]

Also, Vi, please claim the names of your abilities.

Myko should claim his character + ability name.

OK, now I'm out for real. -->

[Iecerint]

I'm back.

I see someone (DUM)'s already dueled out of order, and on someone who had not yet claimed, in spite of my explicit instructions to the contrary. This is suboptimal and very annoying, but still manageable if I'm not mistaken.

@ myko/Vi re: claims -- thank you.

Vi, I think the same ideal kill subset remains. DUM has complicated things by unnecessarily dueling out of order, but I still think he's very likely to be scum.

I think Maxous and C-Worl still need to claim.

Once claims have completed and Vi has used his shot, I'd like to point something out before the duel ends.

[Iecerint]

DUM dueled Max on the previous page.

[Iecerint]

Please don't move on the duel until claims are finished and I've said my piece. Day ends when the duel ends.

I mean, you are welcome to try figuring it out, but ye know.

[Iecerint]

I forgot that Katsuki never claimed.

I guess we're still waiting on her to confirm Vi's claims.

Also, please point out whether you two claimed Neighbors earlier in the game.

[Iecerint]

Claimed => crumbed*

[Iecerint]

Ugh, I have stuff I REALLY wanna say, but I need Katsuki to claim.

Claim, womyn.

[Iecerint]

Gamma's plan sounds OK.

I glanced through it with selective ctrl+f "Vi" and "neigh," but really don't have time to pour over it in too much detail. Am taking a USMLE diagnostic. Katsuki has to claim, anyway.

I have my megapost made up in notepad, so that's different.

[Iecerint]

Vi, pending Katsu's claim, I am revising my tentative kill list.

{DUM, Max, myko}

myko >>>>>> DUM >>> Max (>>>> Katsuki).

Basically, please kill myko. He is scum. Very certain.

More after Katsuki + Vi-shot.

[Iecerint]

Actually, you can probably throw in C-Worl somewhere below myko and before DUM/Max, given Max's inclusion.

OK NOW I AM GOING SEE YOU IN ~4 HOURS.

[Iecerint]

Taking a break; halfway through.

Katsuki should claim before I provide reasoning re: myko, I think. I'll go ahead and post my whole elaboration later tonight if she hasn't by then, though, since we only have ~30 hours til duel deadline.

[Iecerint]

Katsuki, there is not a great deal of time. The day-ending duel deadline is tomorrow, and Vi still needs to make her shot. Please claim fully within the next few hours.

[Iecerint]

Great! Just waiting on Vi to shoot now.

[Iecerint]

Here are the remaining claims IIRC while we're waiting on Vi:

1.)Katsuki -- Neighborizer with Interrogation flavor -- Sima Yi
2.)Vi -- Daykiller, currently Neighborized with Katsuki by way of RF -- Cao Cao
3.)Iecerint -- Duel-canceller, activated vengekiller -- Cao Pi
5.)Gammagooey -- Free dueler, roleblocker -- Xiahou Dun
9.)Drunken Unicorn Master -- unactivated Cop -- Zhang Liao
10.)mykonian -- Backup role, currently Hated s/p killing Cai Wenji -- [some random dude who doesn't even have a unique character model]
12.)Maxous -- unactivated one-night nightkill-stopper -- [some random dude who doesn't even have a unique character model]
16.)RayFrost -- nexus, unactivated self-redirector -- Zhong Hui
17.)C-Worl -- unactivated roleblocker -- [some random dude who doesn't even have a unique character model]

Thoughts for now re: claims specifically:

1. There is DEFINITELY scum in the random-dudes. Of them, I think myko is most likely to be scum because Cai Wenji being Hated makes no sense whatsoever and either Sun Ce or Sun Quan makes good sense as some kind of "back-up" role. Focusing on rhetoric about RF when a duel's already been declared + lurky play where possible + stolen duel earlier in the game pretty much seals the deal.

2. DUM, did you ever claim the name of your Cop ability?

More when we've got one more flip.

[Iecerint]

Eh, I'll go ahead and post my big post. There's not time, and today should not go on without my posting it.

When I received my D) ability, SX included a specification that I appeared to have interpreted it incorrectly. Rather than select a vengekill target AFTER dying, I choose a player BEFORE dying, and that player dies along with me after I die, whenever that should be. (The original wording is ambiguous about when the choosing would happen.) His way of clarifying it was that it was analogous to making myself one-way lovers with someone rather than vengekilling.

At this point and throughout the day I've been (slowly) PMing SX for clarifications regarding how I can use conditionals to set-up ability activations. Of particular interest is what happened after a series of queries that I sent after I became suspicious of Vi re: the "daykilling scum" hypothesis. Though I didn't think TOO much of it at the time, I was surprised by one specific allowance: I could use "Cut Through: I" (that is, an abbreviation of "Cut Through: Iecerint" such that it would activate "before" the daykill was used), and it would constitute a result where Vi would be killed by my subsequent death. However, I could NOT assign a vengekill during twilight.

I didn't dwell on it until a little after that, but that makes NO SENSE if Vi's ability works the way she claims it does. I shouldn't be able to interrupt her post and act in the middle of it like that; the point of conditional/triggered activations is to accommodate strategic intentions with the slower pace of MS play, not to introduce a whole new microgame. I'm extremely confident of this interpretation because when I tried sending SX more complex conditionals (like, if such and such is true AND this is false AND I've used Prince of Chaos, etc.), he specified that anything too crazy was kind of beyond the intent of the mechanic.

Given the above, the simplest reason I was allowed to use "Cut Through: I" as the basis of activation is that Vi's in-game kills are fake. They have no DIRECT connection to the player dying. They are masking one faction's otherwise-silent daykill.

[The following text is a bit deprecated -- this was written pre-claims -- but I still think it's worth including.]

While I'm not CERTAIN about her scumfriend, I SUSPECT that it is DUM. Consider the following:

1) The timing of DUM's claim.
2) The flavor-character of DUM's claim.

3) Vi's intent to kill DUM or C-Worl D3 AND...
4) ...Her shifted intent to kill C-Worl or myko today.

[<--- This part was mistaken; I had mis-remembered D3]
5) DUM's quick move to solidify anti-Gamma sentiment as soon as Ludi flipped, even though much of the anti-Gamma argument applied with equal validity to Vi.

I can elaborate on what I mean by any of this upon request. I want to keep this reasonably short.

tl;dr

Vi is confirmed scum. If she is not, I will eat my hat irl. She's probably Liu Bei if she's telling the truth about not being able to be dueled, which I assume she is.

I wanted to see how Vi would use her "daykill" if I put pressure on her a little, but feigned ignorance of the totality of what was going on -- I thought she might kill a scumfriend to throw off a Iec who only kinda knew what was up -- but there are fewer than 24 hours, so I'm posting it now.

Thoughts on the duel in a separate post.

[Iecerint]

Basically, I think DUM is scum for the above + the random duel on unclaimed Maxous, of all players. His team probably thought the Cop D) would be enough to give him the benefit of the doubt (same on the claim timing). One thing worth noting is that if he flips scum, his team probably doesn't have Katsuki on it, because I think she'd be able to come up with something more plausible (being that she knows the flavor a little).

Voting for Max to win is probably best.

I'm not sold 100% on Max, though, so I considered No Winner for awhile, but I figure it may be worth letting him stop the nightkill, anyway, since we can't kill Vi today, anyway, and he's on Vi's daykilling scumteam if he's scum. If he fails to stop it, Gamma can duel him tomorrow. THOUGH -- we might want to get clarification on whether Max can use the ability the same night he activates it.

If myko flips scum, and I think he will, that will make my Max worries go away a little. Other than the above, my main concern about Max is claimed-based -- he claimed a really fancy, flavorful ability and a does-not-actually-exist-in-the-game role. While I don't think ALL the nothing-roles are scum (e.g. T-Bone's Xu Huang claim was decently flavorful), I do think the juxtaposition of "blah" character and "UWA" ability is contrary to how theme games are made. Game-makers give fancy stuff to legitimate characters; that's what makes it fun for fans, etc.

[Iecerint]

1

Re: DUM -- Nice job totally ignoring the fact that Vi is confirmed scum.

If you're referring to me, I don't think you had no prior suspicion of Max, and I don't know if anyone did, that Vi bit you just quoted notwithstanding; I do think you dueled without town consent on an unclaimed target without requesting a claim. Whether you had made voiced suspicion of him in the past is beside the point.

I mean gosh, if I were to claim intent to duel Gamma, that wouldn't absolve me of responsibility for dueling him, let alone pre-claim.

2

P-edit: Re: Gamma. I really doubt she can be duelled. Checking whether Vi can duel was null cost; I'm surprised we didn't test it immediately. She's careful enough to plan around that. She's probably duel-immune. Liu Bei makes sense because he repeatedly shirks away from conflict over and over again in DW flavor; he even refuses to take over Shu, and his generals have to arrange to have it conquered for his benefit.

That said, a test can't hurt.

I'll admit I DID have my doubts a little because Cao Pi being one-shot duel immune whereas Cao Cao is totally duel-immune does make a certain kind of sense, but it's impossible that her ability works as described given the kind of conditionals SX allows.

I was pretty sure that one of you was Xiahou Dun earlier s/p his role as a duelist in DW7 flavor; I think I alluded to this in spec in Vi prior to the claims. Wasn't sure which, though.

3

P-edit 2: SX said earlier that if a duelist dies by other means, "all effects" of the duel will be carried out. I inferred before that that meant the day would end and D)s would be activated, but it was just an inference.

[Iecerint]

I'll vote after I get myko's flip.

[Iecerint]

Though that looks a lot like a scumclaim.

[Iecerint]

Are you Sun Ce/Quan, too? Cuz that would make me very proud of myself.

[Iecerint]

Katsuki, talk to me about Max.

[Iecerint]

Oh, OK; is already coming around.

[Iecerint]

Katsuki was voting both of you to die, so I wanted to see why she was doing that. But in her iso, she already states leaning Max winning, so ye know.

If myko flips town, I think Max is probably scum.

If myko flips Shu=Vi's=DK, I think Max is probably town, because I don't think SX would give 2 nothing fakeclaims to the same team (so he wouldn't be Shu) && I don't think he's lying about his ability + blocking nightkills is not likely for an NK-based scumteam (so he wouldn't be Wu).* This would implicate C-Worl, the 3rd nothing-name, as likely Wu.

If myko flips Wu=NK, I think Max is similarly NOT Wu (because I don't think SX gave 2 nothing fakeclaims to the same team), but he may well be Shu. Might be worth letting him win to stop the NK, though.

Still need Max to confirm whether he can use his D) ability on the same night he obtains it.

* On second thought, I guess he could be lying and they could no-kill for WIFOM BUT that is a relative long-shot IMO. <_<

[Iecerint]

I am getting very paranoid...

Mod: Vote Count, Please

[Iecerint]

Max, did you ever explain who/what it was that you were looking for?

[Iecerint]

I was paranoid that Vi didn't really kill myko. I asked for a VC so that SX would show up and post without myko dying if that was part of the reason SX hadn't posted.

BUT it looks like it's just the normal V/LA stuff.

[Iecerint]

Did you not read my post...? O.o

[Iecerint]

...

O_o

Unvote; Vote: No winner

[Iecerint]

1. Myko flipping town shakes my faith a little bit, especially after he'd all but claimed scum, but I'm still pretty certain that:

a) Vi's ability should not be able to be fiddled with the way I know it can be if it works as she claims (those of you with conditional abilities can probably ask SX to get the same information firsthand for yourselves -- or you may be able to ask hypotheticals about mine) --> Vi is lying scum --> Vi's ability masks one scumkill.

b) There is not an embarrassed town vig killing people at night.

2. Given 2 scumteams, I think Max and C-Worl are both scum. I don't buy that SX would put 3 not-even-really-in-the-game roles into a theme game when there are so many roles to choose from, and I don't think he'd unequally distribute generic fakeclaims across teams, either. --> That's why I think Max needs to die.

I was really expecting myko to flip scum, so I haven't looked over Max's iso or anything...if you have something compelling, Gamma, show me.

3. I think you're [@ DUM] scum because, namely, I don't believe your role, I don't like your duel timing, and I didn't like your play right after Ludi died re: Gamma. Refer back to my post after the Vi post for details.

THOUGH, frankly, since Cai Wenji was apparently a "hated townie" for some reason, I'm starting to become willing to suspend disbelief on your role itself. <_<

[Iecerint]

Well, I guess you'd have to ask about my ability specifically, since the death processing timing is pretty critical.

[Iecerint]

Iec why do you think Max is scum that doesn't involve setup speculation.

Because you're setting up basically entire scumteams on setup spec right now. (Vi+Max, C-Worl+DUM)
And setup stuff is fine for as a tiebreaker or boost for scum reads but basing everything on that is stupid.

You are correct about everything here, but that's really all there is. I was very confident in myko-scum Max-town before myko's flip; I was originally trying to goad Vi into killing myko thinking that he was her scumfriend. <_<

The fact that myko flipped town changes it around, but I think the basic premise remains. I haven't had time to reconsider the entire game in light of myko being town yet, so that's all I have.

You've alluded to a strong belief that Max (and myko) were probably town before. Can you articulate why you think Max is town? I am receptive.

[Iecerint]

Max, I've made plenty of posts saying why I think DUM is scum. I abbreviated them in that post and referred back to an earlier post. He was taking myko's place in my mind as Vi's shoot-bait way back (though that was before all the other claims had come out and he ruined it by initiating a duel).

@ Gamma, having read over that lyncher business in context, I think his comment is considerably less bizarre when you recognize that his scumfriend *IS* scum posing as a highly active pro-town role. The lyncher angle per se looks like an attempt to adhere to his prior agnosticism about 2 scumteams. The idea is to discredit other scum-at-day parties so that Vi survives longer once there are enough flips and 1-kill nights that shenanigans are obvious.

The specific allusion to his D) ability is indeed probably rhetoric more likely to come from the town side, or at least the side where his ability is real. I think it may well be a real ability, though I imagine it spares his own scumteam.

Glancing through his iso, he pushes for Toasty D1, but doesn't really do much else (that he follows-up on with action) apart from attack RF pretty consistently today. Not to mention his response to my case on Vi:

I don't think Vi could fake that.

lol

[Iecerint]

I think RF and C-Worl are the ones who haven't voted. They need to post.

[Iecerint]

Other potential* scum-at-day parties.

[Iecerint]

Have you been reading the posts you were calling me town for? I've been calling you scum since the claims ended. <_<

I think 4 scum (2/2) remain from an original 3/3.

Vi is scum = 95% sure.
Max/C-Worl scum = pretty sure (largely /outguess and myko flipping town, but their play doesn't really make me uncomfortable with this)
DUM = scummiest read of those who remain (refer to earlier posts)

I think leaning town on DUM, let alone calling him obvTown, is crazyworld.

[Iecerint]

As I stated in my Vi post, the DUM-Vi passage was deprecated by the subsequent claims. I wrote that up soon after I recognized what was going on, which was roughly the post where I came back and strongly insisted on Vi claiming next.

Pre-claims, I thought it was DUM because a) I thought his crappy claim fit with his scumpartner not knowing anything about the flavor and b) his Ludi quotation that implicated Gamma after Ludi died looked like a blatant attempt to set-up Gamma as a day-killing scum.

Post-claims, I thought one of {myko, C-Worl, Max} had to be her scumfriend because of how I think someone who likes the flavor enough to make a theme game would set it up, and I was leaning myko because his claim made the least sense.

[Iecerint]

I just doublechecked. My iso 114-115 makes that pretty damn clear.

[Iecerint]

1. Uh, yeah, that sounds totally plausible to me. You don't (or shouldn't) balance 2-scumteam games town-scum; it gives players who get town wincons a 50% chance of winning vs. 25% for those who draw scum. I actually thought 4/4 was OK going in, though using a Survivor like a Traitor 4th to both teams is a much more elegant solution. Based on flavor, DK was probably a lyncher on Amrun, anyway, so calling Lu Bu "anti-town" may be inaccurate; it's impossible to say without knowing his exact wincon.

2. Also, you are clearly scum, so unless 1 team just has 2 kills, there have to be 2-teams.

Fun fact: everyone can (probably) ask SX about my ability in the hypothetical and get the same information I have. Vi-nigh-confirmed-scum (and 2-nigh-confirmed-scumteams) doesn't have to be esoteric knowledge.

3. Yes, I am aware that you "think" it is "unlikely" that there are 2 scumteams. You are saying it because it is the only universe where you could not be scum, provided that that universe also has SX allowing me to use abilities in the middle of people's posts and have them resolve both a) before said posts end and b) before abilities used in said posts activate.

4. RF (and Katsuki) are the remaining possible nightscum if DUM is town, but I don't think he is. Currently think he's town by PoE.

[Iecerint]

1. I notice you totally ignored my broader point, which is that the proposed set-up is not unbalanced at all. Re: the Lu Bu situation, it's only speculation, but:

a) Lu Bu kills Dong Zhuo in flavor.
b) Dong Zhuo was a Survivor this game.
c) Ergo, Dong Zhuo was probably Lu Bu's lyncher target.
d) Ergo, Lu Bu was probably anti-scum rather than anti-town.

2. I know Katsu and Gamma understand it because they commented on it. The only players who seem disproportionately confused are you, Max, (and DUM? not sure whether his case on Vi was intended to build off mine or if it was totally separate). Don't think C-Worl and RF have said anything one way or the other.

When I received my D) ability, SX included a specification that I appeared to have interpreted it incorrectly. Rather than select a vengekill target AFTER dying, I choose a player BEFORE dying, and that player dies along with me after I die, whenever that should be. (The original wording is ambiguous about when the choosing would happen.) His way of clarifying it was that it was analogous to making myself one-way lovers with someone rather than vengekilling.

At this point and throughout the day I've been (slowly) PMing SX for clarifications regarding how I can use conditionals to set-up ability activations. Of particular interest is what happened after a series of queries that I sent after I became suspicious of Vi re: the "daykilling scum" hypothesis. Though I didn't think TOO much of it at the time, I was surprised by one specific allowance: I could use "Cut Through: I" (that is, an abbreviation of "Cut Through: Iecerint" such that it would activate "before" the daykill was used), and it would constitute a result where Vi would be killed by my subsequent death. However, I could NOT assign a vengekill during twilight.

I didn't dwell on it until a little after that, but that makes NO SENSE if Vi's ability works the way she claims it does. I shouldn't be able to interrupt her post and act in the middle of it like that; the point of conditional/triggered activations is to accommodate strategic intentions with the slower pace of MS play, not to introduce a whole new microgame. I'm extremely confident of this interpretation because when I tried sending SX more complex conditionals (like, if such and such is true AND this is false AND I've used Prince of Chaos, etc.), he specified that anything too crazy was beyond the intent of the mechanic.

Given the above, the simplest reason I was allowed to use "Cut Through: I" as the basis of activation is that Vi's in-game kills are fake. They have no DIRECT connection to the player dying. They are masking one faction's otherwise-silent daykill.

@ Others -- Does it make any sense at all that Vi would be confused by my case on her, then come to the conclusion that I was town for making a case on her without trying to clarify it (until now)? <_<

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Vi -- That's only true (or SHOULD only be true IMHO) if there is 1 scumteam. Suppose a hypothetical game was town/scum/scum/scum. Would you want town to be 66% of the town and have a 50% chance to win? It's a moderated version of the same thing. Multifactions should be balanced accordingly.

But all of that is irrelevant because you are scum regardless of whether you think it is moral or balanced.

I understand Iec's post as far as "Vi could be daykilling scum covering the scumkill with a fake action", but I don't see why a mid-post action resolve means that the trigger is fake, especially since if it's really a scumkill then using it mid-post wouldn't matter since the action would either resolve immediately before or after the post in a PM/QT message from Vi.

If it's a real daykill, I shouldn't be able to mid-post trigger because it would mean that the conditionals SX allows allow strategies that wouldn't even be POSSIBLE without them (as I can't jump into Vi's post in real-time with normal forum posts and lover-ize her within keystrokes of her killing me). It'd be different if I could name lover'd targets in the twilight of my death, but I can't.

I'm pretty sure about that interpretation of the intent of the conditionals because SX got grouchy when I tried to make really fancy, complex conditionals. I think if the added microgame were intentional, he would have accepted them.

P-Edit: Correct up until the end, Gamma. I think she's really unduelable because it would be stupid to lie about it. GIVEN THAT, I think Liu Bei is the probable scum role that would be duel-proof.

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If she's said, like, "people who try to duel me die automatically" (which she couldn't, because she would have had to have said something about that early in the game), I would have thought she was just saying it for balance reasons as you inferred.

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No, it's NOT a kill. That's WHY I can use it. That is my ENTIRE POINT.

The act of Vi typing "Cut Through: X" does nothing. It has no function. It is just bolded text.

That's why SX let me use "Cut Through: I" as a trigger. Since it does nothing, there's no harm in letting it be a trigger -- SX has no reason to treat it as anything special from a mechanics point of view. If I was already technically dead due to their PMing SX about it before posting it (my "twilight"), the loverization just wouldn't happen.

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I think scum have even faked THIS VERY THING on this site before when I was reading through some old games once. <_<

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Vi is trying to make this hard. It is not hard:

1. I *CANNOT* assign a target after I am dead. This includes the time between when a hypothetical daykill on me has been submitted (or Vi's hypothetical command has been posted) and my flip.

2. I *CAN* jump into the middle of Vi's post and loverize her when she types "Cut Through: I," even though my "dead" state would be active keystrokes later and that would be impossible without fancy conditionals, my ability description makes no comment about rapid activation, etc.

3. Simple explanation: SX allows it because Vi's command is text that doesn't change my death state. Therefore, it is not a kill. Therefore, she is lying scum.

P-edit: This is a very...awkward argument with scum... O.o

That should clarify.

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I was personally in EmpKing's Super UPick, where the scum were daykillers (normal public ones, though; not fake ones). I think someone linked to a fake'd-version game after that. That was like a year ago, though; I can't remember what the other game was.

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Oh, I see what you mean.

Let me double-check the wording.

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OK, I can't confirm that. I never asked that specific question. Here's (the relevant bits of) what's confirmed (paraphrase):

1. I can't use it after Vi daykills me (intent at that time was after "Cut Through: Iecerint," but my wording doesn't specify).

2. I can use it via "Cut Through: I."

So it's possible that I cannot use it for "Cut Through: Iecerint," which would confirm that it is a legitimate kill (unless SX allows microgaming rapid mid-post bits to ability activations, which THAT WOULD BE ABSURD). I don't know why I didn't think to clarify that. I guess I was too excited about the fake-sounding microgame implications of "Cut Through: I" being OK given that Vi's ability was real. <_<

I've sent something to SX.

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I'm going to call a boy on the phone in 45 minutes, so I won't be as eager to stop studying for the most important test of my life until the one after that in a bit.*

* Probably. :X

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Just heard back from SX. He says it is possible that it could have worked (paraphrase). So he's being evasive. <_<

Calling boys is scary.

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Vote Count, please.

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I wish I'd asked him more specific questions before he recognized it would confirm your ability one way or the other. <_<

I'm still skeptical. I don't think I personally would let someone snake behind a real kill ability like that when part of the ability is that I have to choose someone before death. But now it's demoted from a surer thing to /outguess.

I also don't think a single 4-man team is balanced...

But there's a survivor. So maybe Shu/Wu together (Gan Ning) + Survivor could be OK, if that's how it's set-up. It seems like a waste of obvious 2-team flavor, though.

I think I'm still inclined to have no winner. So long as at least one of them is scum, this is a safe option. The other options lead to a likely loss if the other is scum UNLESS there are indeed two teams and Max is scum with you, etc.

Unless Vi is scum and they aren't

BUT Max is probably scum with her if she's is scum.

P-edit: I didn't go anywhere.

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THOUGH I actually think your point about CSL is accurate BUT I don't really trust you. : /

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I COULDN'T word it in those ways, though. Doing it any of the ways you just listed would result in no vengekill (because I'm dead once the predicate has occurred).

Eh...I'll be on before deadline...

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Well, No Winner clearly isn't going anywhere. <_<

Vote: DUM/RC to win

Here's hoping re: CSL.

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Not AFAIK.

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Max was crumbing another aspect to his role, so it's not necessarily true.

BUT, it probably is.

I just want the day to be over. I have USMLEs to beat. <_<

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YAY.

SPYREX. OW.

P-edit: Yep.

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Oh gosh. If I'd ever been killed, both Vi and Max would have died. XD

I also totally misunderstood myko's role as he claimed it. I thought he meant he got the ability of the player he beat in the duel...

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I *LOVE* the deadthread. Everyone thinks I'm scum.

And yet I live! MUAHAHAHAHA.

<3 all.

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I wonder what SX was referring to on June 3rd...

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T-Bone, you had my ability wrong. I didn't have a one-shot daykill. <_<

P-edit: It's mostly me talking to myself about /outguess. Not much different from the thread itself. I was sure there were more scum what with town basically having 3 kills each day.

Someone else can share it if they want, I guess, but I'd just as soon it weren't.

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4 if the town is disciplined with No Winner, WHICH...

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Add to that the town kept swinging their dicks into duels before anyone had time to think.

QFT. I think T-Bone's demonstration that scum could swing their dicks, too, was a good decision.

I wish the dead thread people hadn't known the outcome so soon. Might've been fun to see them participate in the set-up speculation and so on.

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Katsuki, RedCoyote was pro-town third party. SUCK IT.

More than that, he was a Death Miller.

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1. Duel mechanic: Fun!

2. Setup: I had a good time /outguessing it, but I was disappointed that it ended up being so simple. I like my imaginary set-up where Vi is a sneaky scumqueen better.

3. Meh, I think there were few enough scum-scum that it'd be silly to claim it was unbalanced. I feel for Gamma, though.

P-edit: The events that take place in the Jin storyline in DW7 are just late Wei...Jin didn't exist until after the conclusion of all of it....

P-edit 2: We just didn't want to WIFOM with the doctor.

[Iecerint]

Plenty of people had scum reads on me D1. I was lucky that RedC flipped scum, because it let me make some good fake independent contributions.

Also: I legitimately thought you were scum D1. Gamma impressed me by accurately characterizing what I was doing in one of his early posts.

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EBWOP: Flipped "scum"

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SX, what led you to include generic characters? I guess you're a fan of the novel?

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I was convinced that Katsuki was Wu-scum offering me an olive branch for like 70% of the game.

Thought the same thing about DUM and Vi from time to time.

XD

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RC, I miss being scum with you. SEII was so much fun. D:

Fun fact: DK could've clarified that Wu wasn't in the game if he'd claimed his wincon...AND that Vi was town.

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@ RC -- I came through and let you win the duel in the end, though.

P-edit -- Re: Max -- Yeah, but that wouldn't have mattered as much, I think. I had you as scum with Vi, etc.

And my suspicion was legit. That whole story was legit. The scum QT is full of me ranting and raving about what sly scum Vi was, etc. <3

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Well, I mean, I don't think more than a handful of people really thought any of us were town...this wasn't like some other scum games I've played where I felt like town had no idea what was going on...

I think town got discouraged by some bad luck earlier on. That bad luck led them to seek out other opinions that they'd disregarded as scum at first. The result was that we could control what was happening while still having town believe that they were personally responsible for the various bad outcomes.

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I didn't say anything mean, if that's what you're thinking. At least, nothing I didn't say in the thread, too.

I think I O_o'd at DUM's "fakeclaim," but that turned out not to be a fakeclaim SO.

I talk a lot about townIec v. scumIec v. blahblahblah, I list some posts and observations I ended up not posting. There's some stuff that could lead to /outguess if someone did real crazy meta times in other games. It's kinda a goofy read, though, since I spend most of the game hunting for a Wu that doesn't exist.

Meh. If RF feels strongly about releasing it, it's OK with me, but I'd just as soon it weren't.

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?

You say something about it being an "uphill battle for scum" in the deadthread on June 3rd.

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I thought you were really excellent D1. You just started dying irl after that.

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And it all worked out!

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Juls, I think people discounted your death because you were considered obvtown, so there was no reason to read too much into your being killed. If you had been myko or something, people would've looked back. And this is consistent with our choice -- we killed you because you were an obvtown player less likely to be protected than Vi. Your reads hadn't even been published when we sent in the tentative kill. Though your reads didn't change our mind.

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Less likely than Gamma.*

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The only one I disagree with is Amrun. I thought she was being town given townIec.

And she was the only actual scum of the lot.

So shows what I know.

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At least I nailed BB! And RedC, though I suppose I shouldn't have gotten any credibility for that last one. ^^~

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GreyICE, your play this game was different from what I was used to, too. I don't know if you would've been my vig shot for it, but I think suspicion in your direction was warranted.

Also <3

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Vi, why did you decide to shoot without claims 3/4 times? This was the main crazy part IMO.

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By that logic, there's almost no reason to claim at all.

I think the proper way to play dayvig is to shoot players at L-1. This doubles lynches and VC analysis opportunities later on. However, it requires that you aggressively keep the town disciplined. The duel mechanic and short deadlines complicated this strategy here, though.

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That was a clever character claim by the way Iec, choosing somebody that was a very plausible beloved prince.

Thanks! I made up the Zhong Hui claim, too, and a Wang Yuanji claim for C-Worl that he decided not to use. I missed RF's question about A) abilities on page 1, though. <_<

I was a little disappointed that more players didn't know the flavor. I thought DW7 was really fantastic, lack of Free Mode aside.

[Iecerint]

If you liked the story, you should look into DW7. It actually makes an effort to treat the narrative with a degree of seriousness.

I miss the Zhang He from DW3, though.

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And I'd absolutely play more DW and/or duel-having games.

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You should have asked a town-agreed lynch target to duel you. Automatic win.

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He didn't have to personally kill Cao Cao and Liu Bei. They just had to be dead.

IIRC.

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Which doesn't quite invalidate your point BUT.

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But DW is so fun.