The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[The Fonz]

If Fate sticks to his guns on FES, and doesn't start spouting the 'Yos is white knighting FES' crap that he came out with, then FES probably goes down, and scum might well lose.

Both Fate and Yos deserve criticism for buying too heavily into the 'all the scum are on one side of this argument' frame. That said, I maintain that the scum case on Yos was completely retarded. The Fate case at least made sense - it wasn't like I had to make arguments I wouldn't have made as town.

[The Fonz]

Mastermate, you were far stupider than Yos. There was absolutely no way Yos and Balam were scum together. None. Fate may have been town, but he wasn't right- about anything- the last couple of days. It was PC and MM buying Fate's bullshit that cost the town this game more than any one mistake Yos made.

[The Fonz]

Yes, I agree with that Ray. The mea culpa on MM's part was good play and showed maturity. That said, it was also pretty much the only option that would have been left open to a scum MM there, as well. We were lucky enough to have a nice juicy townfight between Yos and Fate, and we just supported the side whose arguments actually made sense.

[The Fonz]

Yes, that's reasonable. It's like I said at the time- if there were any chance of Yos and Balam being scum together after fate claimed Vanilla, there would have to be another power role somewhere. FES made the very good point that scum just can't expect to have two of them claim powerful town roles and not have that imply the balance is fucked. Was it MoS who made the 'one tracker alone is balanced' argument? I literally couldn't believe I was reading that from an MS veteran.

[The Fonz]

You know what, MoS? I'd have seen red if I were town over your refusal to participate in the massclaim in the manner agreed to. You were more suspicious of Yos, you should have claimed first. I've seen 'I don't want to claim, because then he'll change his claim based on mine' standoffs before, and the only resolution is to go with the will of the town. Which was MM before Yos, because that's what the popcorn decreed.

[The Fonz]

I just remembered the argument I had for us being protown, and I'm kinda sad I forgot to present it, although I get the feeling it wouldn't have helped. Going into that night after the FD lynch, YosCayke and Balam had identified Copper and PC as scum. Thus, the smart choice for scum would be to have their third member make the nightkill. Yet, even though YosCayke blocked us, someone still died. That was pretty strong evidence for us being town, since there was pretty much no reason to suspect we would be blocked that night (especially with the doctor soft-claim). Still, too little too late, I wish I had remembered to say this before we got speedlynched.

Oh yeah, and this wasn't a good argument at all. Yoscayke was obviously roleblocked.

[The Fonz]

Oh wait. The previous day. Yeah, that makes some sense, although I don't think Yos had actually pegged copper.

[The Fonz]

Before Yos, definitely, that was a mistake. Which side of the claims balam goes depends entirely of whether you think he's scummy or not and who are the people who need to be confirmed, him or the rest of the town.

Right, and the right to make that decision belongs to the town as a whole, via popcorn process, not to you as an individual.

[The Fonz]

You could have claimed, then asked him to claim results next. Objecting to the process when it's your turn just looks like scum wanting to base their claim off as much info as possible. If you'd asked the town, I think there would have been a majority for 'after the massclaim' rather than 'before' for Yos and Balam to claim.

[The Fonz]

I think pretty much everyone who posted was OK with massclaim, and I don't like the idea of dragging out the day waiting for one lurker to give his OK.

[The Fonz]

P.S. Does anyone read what the night kill victims wrote with the idea that 'hey, they're obviously town the scum wanted dead?' Or is it just me?

I did. We didn't kill you because of your scum reads, which seemed flimsy and changeable, we killed you because your town reads were bang on. That bit about 'scum is not found by playing pick three of...' sealed your fate. All those players were town. That said, y'know, you'd even said you wanted to lynch UB before you died.

That said, this was a tricky game to be scum in. Gurgi and I joined because we wanted to scumhunt together, and it was hard adapting to being scum. I think the same may be true of Reckamonic. The reads on which Gurgi based his early play were made before we even knew we were scum- he genuinely didn't get the FES hate.

[The Fonz]

I was onto you and Copper, and FES was... god... I've NEVER seen scum defended that hard by town. I figured Yos was white knighting - that argument for FES being town was so insanely bad that I figured it HAD to be made by scum who'd been backed into a corner by white knighting a scummy townie who just refused to play in any sort of pro-town manner.

I thought his arguments for FES-town were pretty good, actually. I'd have had no problem seeing townYos believing them. You were 'onto' us with a series of poor and, frankly, in many cases factually untrue arguments. I mean, like I said, Gurgi basically stuck to the same positions he'd taken when he thought he was town.

[The Fonz]

@The Fonz: I don't really see how the case on Yos was retarded; Yos had the same exact suspicions from Day 1 pretty much throughout the game even when it was becoming more and more obvious that all of the people he suspected were pretty much obvtown for a variety of reasons. "Consistency is a scum tell" if you will. From my point of view, it looked like a scum Yos just was refusing to give up his mislynch candidates. I kept on citing different reasons for why Yos should change his mind about certain people, particularly Fate on Day 3, but he kept shooting them down over and over again.

Fate Day 3 was incredibly scummy. Every single point we made against him was true. He was playing to survive. Every single dodgy thing FES did, Fate did the same or worse.

At that point, I just got frustrated and concluded that Yos was just scum even though my read of him coming into the game was town. And then when I heard Yos' choices for Jailkeeps... woah nelly. It just seemed even more scummy. Maybe since you were scum you couldn't really see why it made sense, but from a town point of view, Yos looked pretty scummy here. The only thing he had in his favor by mass claim time was game PR balance, imo.

Which was huge. But really, as scum you love it when an honest game theory disagreement, like whether a jailkeeper is best used primarily as a roleblocker or a doctor, turns into 'You're scum for disagreeing with me!' on both sides.

People like me, FD, DaSpot, and the Unicorns definitely DID look into various reasons why certain people might have been killed.

FD looked into the nightkills in order to use whatever they could about them to confirm what they'd already decided they were going to argue.

[The Fonz]

Fonz

- I really wish you'd stop saying that you were playing like town. You were playing pretty much exactly like scum. I'm not going through the damn thread to explain exactly why you were scum, but you really were. The gummybear wagon cemented it. Your reaction to that was as scum as scum could be.

I really fail to see how continuing to push a lynch you were already pushing once other people start to join it is a scummy thing to do.

What really fucking bothers me about this is you're probably going to turn around next time we're in a game together and I'm town and try to make out that I'm scum for attacking a newer player who is doing something massively scummy and antitown. 'Defend all the VIs' will not always work.

@Fate: You used AGM's absence as an excuse both for posting and not posting, when the one constant was you posted when you were in trouble. Even then, that was never the crux of the case on you. It was that you were consistently voting whoever was the biggest threat to you.

[The Fonz]

Dude. A gummy wagon shows up. So basically, a wagon moves off someone you have a middling town read on and moves onto your strongest scumread and you... do nothing except more or less ignore it and comment on some stuff.

Oh gods yes you were scum thank you very much.

So get off your damn high horse. I read you correctly.

You know that was Gurgi, right? I think i posted once between the wagon on Gummy showing up and the end of the day (to state, honestly, that I didn't see this 'change in read' you were talking about). It was the one part of the game, apart from the very beginning, when Gurgi was primary posting head.

Still. You accused us of an 'enormous change in read.' We were pushing Gummy before. We continued to push Gummy. What was inconsistent? You made out as if we no longer had Gummy as our no1 suspect or something, all because he made a post that said DaSpot's actions made him feel Gummy was scum, and commented on a couple other things.

Also, in that very post where you said 'Yos should have been a strong town read' Gurgi said 'Yos is town stop trying to lynch him.' In so many words.

[The Fonz]

Also... one little line is not it. You weren't playing off Yos like town does with strong town reads. You weren't interacting with them. You weren't building cases and wagons with them. You weren't treating them like town.

I mean you can type whatever, but you weren't playing as if you were both town.

Right. And if you'd posted 'That post does not seem to show the enthusiasm for the appearance of a Gummy wagon I would expect' you might have a point. Claiming it was a 'massive change in read' was simply false.

Also, you're accusing ME of 'not playing off' Yos, who should have been a 'strong town read' because of a 'conviction that FD was scum and FES was town.' None of those convictions could accurately be attributed to me d2. I had FES scum, FD town, and Yos neutral. It was gurgi who had FES town, Yos town, and Fate scum, and I think his handful of posts were consistent with that. I changed track on FD because we couldn't go through another day going 'Well I think FES is scum and my partner thinks he's town so we can't do anything about him," and I noticed that Fate had done everything FES was being attacked for as well.

[The Fonz]

But we were different people, and had different reads. Or 'reads.' We became much more consistent once I basically decided to go with Gurgi's reads. If this had been just me, I'd have attached myself to FES' leg like a Rottweiler. IF it had been just Gurgi, he'd probably never even have expressed suspicion. Balam had a similar problem with differing reads.

[The Fonz]

Anyway, I think we've got off track here. Whoever said you were better at finding scum than explaining was right. Perhaps being hilarious like this more often would help?

I'm not even sure I'd have gone along with the Gummy wagon too hard, but then GummyBear posted "You can't lynch me, I'm not one of the two big wagons!"

For others reading this, word of advice: Don't post that.

[The Fonz]

People who get lynched D1 don't ever get to brag about anything.