Mini 1176: Dexter Season 2 (Game Over) Who Won?

[Hinduragi]

Vote: Kise

That vig thing was uncalled for. I should've at least been allowed the decency of dying N2.

[Hinduragi]

I get that KKN is trying to shrug off his wagon and do something with his post. Its not a quality post, but I don't read scum.

Same. I've also seen the 'RVS isn't over' argument happen with both townies and mafia members. It's null tell at best.

Tans, on the other hand, seems to be attacking everyone who attempts to hop on his wagon. I took a look through his iso on town games and couldn't find this behavior in any of them though they matched the game he linked. And his latest post in which he votes for Amrun, the reasoning he gives is stretching at best. He's grasping for a lifeline on page 4.

Unvote; Vote: Tans

[Hinduragi]

I was referring to your nervous behavior. Nice try.

[Hinduragi]

What leads you to believe otherwise?

[Hinduragi]

In the quote I had from Budja, he was comparing your play. I cut off the rest of the quote to point out what I was agreeing to. I was going back to the thought when I typed that sentence. At best, it's a mountain out of a molehill. At worst, intentional misrepresentation.

When it comes to each other's scumhunting, don't worry about it, the feeling is completely mutual.

You weren't nervous in the castlevania game. You jumped on to those who voted you but in a different manner. For example, the 'all five fingers' thing.

[Hinduragi]

In your post 53 though you criticized people for placing votes without reasoning when you were guilty of the exact same thing. THAT is why I placed my vote on you in my VERY NEXT POST.

How is frustration over something she seemingly inadvertently posted make her scum, though?

[Hinduragi]

They're saying others haven't explained their votes yet which could be considered scummier...I think. Also:

How is frustration over something she seemingly inadvertently posted make her scum, though?

[Hinduragi]

I forgot to announce it while I was home but I am also V/LA until Monday.

~Noted

[Hinduragi]

That wasn't the basis for my vote.

The basis was because I thought he meant that in m previous games I didn't attack people who hopped on my wagon but if you read my past games you will see that I do - so I called him out for lying and hence the vote
Reading is tech

Nah, it wasn't bad reading. One thing you should know about Socio is he is actually following along; It just doesn't seem that way because he's terse about it. This is scum-Socio looking for a nice little way to hop onto the bandwagon.

Unvote; Vote: Socio

When I played with scum-Socio, his voting reasons were just as shitty back then.

Baltar, you going to try to sell me on the Socio wagon or did you just create it to see who would jump on?

What is there to sell? Socio had shit reasoning and got called out on it. When he showed the reason, that exposed him. VPB bagged us some scum.

Farside, the 5 town games in the middle of those links.

[Hinduragi]

I had scum-Socio down from playing with him in Defcon 1. I looked at [redacted] that Amrun mentioned and Defcon 2 for town-Socio. The difference between his play in them is that in Defcon 1, he has really shitty voting reasons when he bus's me but wasn't called out on them until late in the game. In Defcon 2, there's a noticeable change. He backs up the Bunnylover case and is more aggressive in finding scum. The same town-Socio bandwagon'ing someone to L-1 because this someone might have purposefully misunderstood me? No.

At this point in the game I'd ordinarily put up a TOWN/SCUM meter, but frankly pretty much everyone is sitting in the middle, with you at the bottom and Sotty at the top. So there isn't much point.

I don't get it. Why not vote your one scum read instead of sheeping the town read?

His basic reaction was 'lol, come at me bro'...which sort of made me think he's not really scum when he's antagonizing people to vote him

Scum-Socio

Hey Socio... You going to you know? Actually contribute something?
[...]

Vote: Socio

NOPE

Town-Socio

Yesterday lasted all of three days, so I'm not surprised that we have some "lurkers." Pressuring them is likely to get us nowhere at this point.

Vote: SocioPath.

K.

IM DOWN WITH WRAITH-SHOT AND VV-LYNCH.

Also Nik has some weird obsession with me this game, likely oppertunistic scum trying to kick while the other is down as the case may be.

[Hinduragi]

Socio goes for the claimed third-party role. If there's an SK, I can see a problem arising with the claim but with no flips I don't see any reason in doubting the claim. There's really no reason to vote Kise unless you would like to wagon someone besides your buddies who won't flip town.

You telling everything about that role, Kise? Seems like you have inside info into the setup, ie why would we have no reason to suspect an SK here?

:goodposting:

Just ISO'd LMP and noticed why my question was ignored: because he answered it already. KKN's pushing is weird because LMP sheeped his town read due to shitty reads. I've had it happen to me in a game(I'd like to think it's more common early on in the game) so I don't see it exactly being a scumtell.

[Hinduragi]

Farside isn't trying to lynch Kise.

I want to hear the main points against Budja minus the Kise thing since Socio is also voting Kise. I understand they're in the thread but I'm largely ignoring them because I have a gut town read on him.

Tans, what do you think of Kise?

He is unique in that he cites and pulls references from the only game he has played with me.
In that game, (DEFCON 1.0). we were scum together.
He also vigged me (NUKE'd).
And then flaked, and was replaced by FATE.

Discrediting the wagon? Nice, Socio. We both know why I vigged you: to win the game. I flaked site-wide around that time for personal reasons. It was a one-time thing. If you didn't notice, Fate also mentioned how I had the perfect bussing.

But combining Hindu's join date, plus his limited exposure of me, makes his stance seem the most clouded of all on my wagon.
Mostly because I have less faith in his ability to play as compared to others on my wagon.

More discrediting. Really nice.

In fact, your whole 261 is a giant discreditation.

Your "these wagons are silly" and then hopping onto one and hitting it up to L-1 with little to no reason(which was later proved to be non-existent reasoning) was insanely scummy. You've still failed to address that.

In terms of what I think of socio now, I'd say leaning town, but it's not a strong read by any means. He's participating and answering to his wagon well, imo.

What part of 261 do you consider responding well? His entire response pertaining to me was ad-hom.

[Hinduragi]

Yeah, I noticed and I think Socio comes out as scummier. Your heart's in the right place and that's all I needed to know about it. You just didn't think the Kise vote through enough. Socio said his voting reasoning was weak, and, to a lesser degree, he didn't want a survivor. He didn't wait for the details or continue asking questions about the claim like you did. You came out on top easily.

[Hinduragi]

New day, new things to shine lights on.
Let us see where this rabbit hole goes.

Vote: KKN

Currently game meta is silly and should be reworked.

Oh, I'd love to hear the reasons for this one.

I support a Kise full claim. As far as the wagon goes, I agree there's scum on it. Kise's vote was bad, but it was obvious why he did what he did. I don't see any reason to doubt his claim. What about that vote makes you think he's not a survivor, Farside?

I'll brush up on the LMP case. So far, I had only looked into the sheep vote he made.

[Hinduragi]

LMP's case isn't juicy enough. While I can see it, it just doesn't stick out as particularly caught-scum. Him sheeping his reads D1 was also something that has happened to me as town and, from what I've seen, that's been the primary reason pushed since they just quote-walled about it. His make it till you fake it argument is true and I think this makes him a little less likely to be scum.

Farside, I was more or less referring to his motives. The hammer's the part of the wagon most scum would avoid and I don't see any scum trying to cruise by on a survivor claim making themselves a blatant target for everyone to take a shot at.

I was looking back on the Amrun case and saw this thing about false dichotomy which makes absolutely no sense. The keyword in the quote was "I think" meaning it's a personal opinion. Even if the fallacy term still applies to this, it doesn't mean she's scum or town.

LMP, what do you think of Tans and his Amrun vote? His main point when first voting Amrun was that she was fencesitting. Your reasons are different. Do you agree with his reasons too?

Tans, why did you switch your vote back to Amrun over Farside? Why didn't you intially just unvote KKN and go back to Amrun?

LL didn't die because he was a random spot on the dartboard.
People tend to ignore the dead, and their dying words far too often.

Woah, back up there. THAT's your reasoning? Is anyone besides me still looking at Socio? This has got to be one of the most obv-scum voting reasons I've ever seen. I was considering backing off and finding his buddies first since the wagon apparently wasn't convincing enough but WOW, this is bad. He tries to tell Farside off about weak reasoning when she's referring to him not going for people with which he'll have better reasons for voting. I leave the pressure off of him for just a post and he goes right back to shit play. Socio is scum.

Vote: Socio

[Hinduragi]

Wow, not much has happened since I last posted. Also, .

@Bolded Kise: Probably.

With nothing new, me skating figure eights, and Socio still playing obv-scum, I am happy with my vote. I like the Farside case but Socio's is better. I've been onto him since Day 1 and he's still dropping scumtells. I'm really confident with this one. LMP would be null-scum coming up after Farside. After that, all I have is a large grey area of null with town-VPB.

[Hinduragi]

what is socio currently doing that is playing obv scum?

All of his votes thus far have been weak. The one time he jumped on a wagon he never commented even when I brought it up and pointed it out.

Your "these wagons are silly" and then hopping onto one and hitting it up to L-1 with little to no reason(which was later proved to be non-existent reasoning) was insanely scummy. You've still failed to address that.

He's using sarcasm to make him appear carefree when there are votes on him. It gives him a behavioral advantage even though he isn't contributing to the game in any pro-town way. He discredited most, if not everyone, who voted him at one point in a single post. The whole part he mentioned about me was a personal attack rather than anything game-related.

Oh yeah, Socio. Why KKN over Tans? What about sheeping a dead person is better than a read you have had for D1 still going into D2?

[Hinduragi]

I think that whole being limited to a single vote really throws some people off.

So...why do you trust the LL-tell more than your own read that carried over from D1 into D2?

[Hinduragi]

Mmmmm.

Nice false dilemma.

No. You could've voted Tans(your read that you seemed to have more justification from) or KKN(Because LL magically thought he was scum). You voted KKN. There isn't a false dilemma, just you avoiding a simple question to an otherwise terrible vote.

You are looking for a tunnel.
A way to ignore the game without ceasing to provide posts or "content".
Focus on me, let everything else slide on by.

Wrong. This, this, this, this, and this say otherwise.

Yet another vote with shitty reasoning from Socio-scum. I'm actually REALLY surprised noone has caught onto this by now. Sure, as town you have the same demeanor when you post but your town votes are definitely things I can see as pretty well thought-out, not "lolololol this guy got NK'd and voted LMP; LMP must be scum".

Can't you just answer simple questions? *sigh*

WELCOME TO MY WORLD.

Hind, list of reads ASAP please.

With nothing new, me skating figure eights, and Socio still playing obv-scum, I am happy with my vote. I like the Farside case but Socio's is better. I've been onto him since Day 1 and he's still dropping scumtells. I'm really confident with this one. LMP would be null-scum coming up after Farside. After that, all I have is a large grey area of null with town-VPB.

The only thing that really changed since this was the Socio scumread only got stronger.

Hits the prod zone immediately after being called out?
Is not like he actually hasn't posted for days as opposed to just not in this game?

No. Socio wants this wagon bad. That's why he calls me out on bullshit like the quoted above. If he doesn't push this wagon as hard as he can, he knows I'll keep pushing him until he flips scum. That's why he started a wagon on me purely based on "tunneling" in the first place.

P.S. I will make sure to keep my posting up so the poor kittens don't have to die.

[Hinduragi]

Their back and forth, as LMP says, shows more certainty than it does relevant interogating.

You expect me.. to interrogate SOCIO?

Your "these wagons are silly" and then hopping onto one and hitting it up to L-1 with little to no reason(which was later proved to be non-existent reasoning) was insanely scummy. You've still failed to address that.

Heh.

Oh yeah, Socio. Why KKN over Tans?

"I have only one vote"
"There's a reason you would vote one over another"

Mmmmm.

Nice false dilemma.

/unanswered

Some birds just can't fly.

[Hinduragi]

^this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard...almost to the point of unbelievability.

Like I said, it's probably a lie. Would you at least read the exchanges I had with him? Like, really read them. I have had the same unbelievability concept except with his votes.

@Farside: Tans' 516/532 makes him likely town. I don't really know what you mean since you didn't share a big back and forth unless you meant the D1 stuff as well, which I think I already commented on. Scum with SP? You. Why? I think you're both scum. I'm not blissfully blinded that I'll be lucky enough to catch the entire scumteam in one day but I'd like to start with my strongest read and go from there. There may not be an easy-to-spot connection but that doesn't mean the two aren't buddies, especially when the two players are both fairly experienced.

No. Socio wants this wagon bad. That's why he calls me out on bullshit like the quoted above.

Does not follow.

"Socio wants this wagon bad" - Because you're starting to feel pressured now that we're both gaining attention.
"bullshit" - I'm scum because I got prodded? No.

As does the rest of your post.
The only thing that changes about your scumreads is that I only get stronger?
Maybe you should look at what the word "tunneling" means in regards to the game of mafia.

How do they support it? In each of them, I was clearly paying attention to the rest of the game. If I'm being singled out for voting my consistently strongest scumread in the game, that isn't tunneling. That's scumhunting.

[Hinduragi]

I've been thinking about what Socio said and I think I do need to relook at my reads. I'll do a D2 re-read and get back to you guys with it. Maybe I'm missing something? There's got to be a reason only the survivor is helping me wagon him. The VPB wagon is a load of garbage.

No reason's what you saw in the post that made Tan's look town. I asked what in the post makes you lean town on him by the way.
No reasons why he finds me scum and no reason why he finds SP scum, maybe OMGUS?

Noone asked for reasoning on my town reads. In fact, I barely give super strong reasoning except when I'm voting a person.
Yes, I OMGUS'd Socio on Day 1 when he never voted me and have been keeping the same vote ever since.

[Hinduragi]

Goddammit. My router went out. I reread from my phone while I was gone but couldn't post anything because it would've been too big and I can't organize my thoughts from there. I'll have some kind of catchup post up tonight.

[Hinduragi]

Wow, I didn't even realize I was at L-1. And yes, guys, I apologize. I feel like I'm not getting into this as much as I should. I know my tunneling was bad but, hey, I was getting voted earlier. That's why I explained I needed a reread, in an attempt to stop distracting the town from going for scum and some people mistook that for me thinking my vote on Socio was a bad one and I was trying to avert pressure. If I was a cop, I could've explained it better but I've never played this role before. I couldn't have proved my entire case on this because I have seen townies get tunneled on by players who pulled tracker and saw them do something scummy and both flipped town. I'm pretty sure Socio isn't town, though. I don't think he's ever debated the stronger points of my case with me even when I asked him to. I just can't see town doing this or discrediting me, even townSocio. I'm Esmee Pascal, the replacement Lieutenant. I am very occupied with my personal life so I have very little time to focus on my police work, thus I am only a 2-shot tracker. Why 2? Trust me, I don't get it either. On Night 1, I tracked Socio and saw him visit Locke Lamora. Since then, I've been pretty sure he's scum but noone's been wagon'ing him with me so I couldn't really get the pressure I wanted on him.

I'd actually rather No Lynch than kill anyone else at this point.

On day 2 with no scum flips? Why?

[Hinduragi]

I'm Esmee Pascal, the replacement Lieutenant. I am very occupied with my personal life so I have very little time to focus on my police work, thus I am only a 2-shot tracker. Why 2? Trust me, I don't get it either. On Night 1, I tracked Socio and saw him visit Locke Lamora.

Socio?

Yes, Sociopath. The guy I suspected at the end of D1. I've been voting him all of today too.

Actually... Hindi can you check everything you just claimed and make sure you didn't make any mistakes?

Uh, I just checked before I claimed and just now too. Results still says Sociopath and my role is still a 2-shot tracker. Why?

Pedit: Ok, lol

[Hinduragi]

No, I didn't breadcrumb. The one time I tried it was off-site and apparently it got spotted pretty easily. I forgot what my alignment was. Since then, I haven't tried it.

[Hinduragi]

'YES I WILL LISTEN TO THE "CONFIRMED TRACKED SCUM" AND RELOOK AT MY READS.'
WHICH WAS CONVINIENTLY RIGHT AFTER I UNVOTED HINDI.

That's why I explained I needed a reread, in an attempt to stop distracting the town from going for scum and some people mistook that for me thinking my vote on Socio was a bad one and I was trying to avert pressure.

I already explained that in my claim. With you lying about visiting LL, I know that I was dead-on with my read. You should add another person to that small list of very few people who can read you.

[Hinduragi]

Sigh, I'm not going to be able to dispute this with the way it's going. It's my word against his and I've already been discredited from trying to avoid claiming.

FUN FACT:
I HATE DOING KILLINGS.
BECAUSE I HATE TRACKERS/WATCHERS.

This is true, actually. The one time I played with him as scum, we argued in the scum QT about who would send it in. Then we realized it was an anonymous untraceable kill.

Claim is unbelievable at best.

Why?

Socio KKN scumteam possibility? It's likely. Socio's ignored him almost all game. You guys need to look into this.

[Hinduragi]

VPB looks TERRIBLE.

No. That was probably one of the best questions asked.

I don't buy "LOLOL RITA IS CONFIRMED TOWN CUZ THE SURVIVOR SAID SO". If ANYTHING, best scum gambit ever or Kise misread his PM. I'd go with the latter because you don't trust him except for when it comes to your claim, as per below.

I'm not going to fucking make myself a target because someone else goes on D1 'LOLOL IM A SURVIVOR AND THESE PEOPLE I CAN TARGET TO NOT BE SURVIVOR ANYMORE, BUT I DONT KNOW IF I WANT TO.'

KKN. Yeah, I put the gist of it in my claim. I'm limited because I'm occupied with my personal life(Her boyfriend, I'm assuming) and don't have time to focus on my police work. I have no clue why it's just 2, like I said.

A unrestricted tracker makes more sense in the situation. In my eyes.

I don't get it. Are you saying it's imbalanced?

[Hinduragi]

PRs are fucking crutches.
And fuck PRs and let them get NK'd.
I do more as a VT in games than most do as PRs.

He implied he was VT, but didn't say so.

[Hinduragi]

LOLOLOL

Now, time to read the notes.

I'm interested to know how my bus on Socio looked. I pre-planned it as soon as I got my role PM, btw.

[Hinduragi]

I know we won by role mechanics, that's why I'm lol'ing. I'm just curious what the thoughts on the bus were. Socio thought it sucked and he was dead D3 but then everyone called him town. Noone else really commented on it much during the game.

[Hinduragi]

What I'm trying to say is I'm just looking for tips on how I can improve my scumplay/gambits. I'm not trying to gloat over anything.

[Hinduragi]

I'd have probably wanted Socio dead really quickly after you died, and vice versa.

Is this from Faraday or an outsider? Reason being that you know my scum meta pretty well.

VPB, DDD, and Amrun really carried the town in this game. I'm disappointed Sotty left the site because of this too. Honestly, I was skimming and lurking at the same time so I never caught what really happened unless it was about that deal where Sotty would have to leave the site if she was scum this game.

[Hinduragi]

VPB, Juls linked your interrogation QT's in the "Mod Notes" post.

[Hinduragi]

I'm curious how DDD knew our actual characters' names.

[Hinduragi]

But cops get the result at Day Start. If LL died at Night End, then wouldn't that cancel it?

[Hinduragi]

He is trolling with his ego. Don't let it get to you.

[Hinduragi]

even with the worst bus in history on me

Even I know it wasn't THAT bad. See: Day 2 End and Day 3 Start.

[Hinduragi]

Oh.

1) LaGuerta's doctor ability
2) Murderer's Kill / Dexter's Kill
3) Role Cop / Character Cop / Investigation
4) Doake's Track
5) Batista's network ability (does not visit)
6) Lila's Messenge (does not visit)

The kill resolves before the investigation.