Dealing with Scum Bus Drives

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Post Post #4 (isolation #0) » Wed May 25, 2011 10:56 am

Post by ReaperCharlie »

It's perfectly fine to have a scum Bus Driver. As long as things are balanced out with a bunch more town power. He can only Busdrive 2 people per night (unless he's got some crazy-@$$ powers like the Mixmaster had in Metropolis: Revisited -- check out both the role PM for him, and the mod notes).

I have a game coming out soon in which there will be a possibility of a scum Bus Driver. There is also a glut of other power which will likely be town. The point of the game is to figure out who's lying, and kill them off; it should be pretty straightforward on that level. But it'll be confusing though, figuring out who's lying! ;)

But it all depends on how you want the game to feel.
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Post Post #5 (isolation #1) » Wed May 25, 2011 10:57 am

Post by ReaperCharlie »

Battousai wrote:It depends on the role (assume player A is the intended target, while the action has been redirected to player B)

Investigative: Player B is innocent/didn't visit anyone
Protective: Usually doesn't get a result normally, so doesn't get one redirected
Killing: Usually doesn't get a result normally, so doesn't get one redirected

You shouldn't tell the player that their action was redirected no matter what, though when you give them "Player B is innocent" they can pretty much infer it, when they ask if you made a mistake and tell them no.

I wouldn't even tell them that. I would tell them "Your target is innocent".

What's the point of having a Bus Driver or Redirector, if the PR being redirected KNOWS he was redirected?
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Post Post #9 (isolation #2) » Wed May 25, 2011 1:04 pm

Post by ReaperCharlie »

That's why Redirectors and Bus Drivers aren't allowed in Normal games, Kdub.

They're part of the beast of Mafia. Learn to love them, or avoid them like the plague.

The way most people do with Jesters, Cults, etc. I love Cults, though.
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Post Post #14 (isolation #3) » Wed May 25, 2011 4:10 pm

Post by ReaperCharlie »

Magua wrote:
Bullet wrote:What should a Moderator do when he designs a Bus Drive role for a Scum Group and then they start changing the actions every night.
Should he inform the townspeople about possible changes if they targets are changed or not?
I'm really confused about this, just want to know what is the best thing for a Moderator to do.


For roles that normally do not get any response to their actions (eg, doctor), then they should not be informed.

For roles that do normally get a response (eg, cop), you have two choices:
1) You can tell them their new target (cop investigates X, you give them the report "Y is innocent")
2) You can not tell them their new target (cop investigates X, you give them the report "Innocent")

Frankly, I consider 2) to be bastard modding. You can make the argument that it's equivalent to a godfather coming up innocent on a cop report or a framer framing the cop target, but if there's a bus driver and investigative roles don't know if they were redirected or not, the investigations (from the point of view of the player) effectively become random. Were I the mod, I would go with 1)

You should also consider how trackers and watchers, etc, deal with the bus driver itself.
- A tracker who tracks the bus driver should see them visit both targets.
- A watcher who watches a bus driver target should see the bus driver visit. By the nature of watching a target that is being bus driven, the watcher should also end up watching the other person driven, which if you're going with 1) above, means that the watcher will know they're driven and will know that the bus driver is one of those appearing on his report.

Finally, you should determine if the bus driver can drive themselves with someone else. I advise against this, but that's just personal opinion.

All of these decisions should be made before the game starts, obviously.

Star Wars Mafia:

Redirector-scum knows he's going to be investigated that night.
He redirects the known cop to an innocent person that night.
Cop gets the result "Innocent".
Cop doesn't push for Redirector-scum's lynch the next day.

It's a function of the role itself. It's not bastard-modding.
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Post Post #17 (isolation #4) » Wed May 25, 2011 6:51 pm

Post by ReaperCharlie »

Magua wrote:And I would still prefer:

Redirector-scum knows he's going to be investigated that night.
He redirects the known cop to
an innocent person
the cop himself that night.
Cop gets the result
"Innocent"
"Cop is innocent".
Cop
doesn't push for Redirector-scum's lynch the next day.
has no useful information.

What do you mean you'd "prefer" that. Like... it'd be automatic? That's useless. It takes away the entire choice and strategy of the role. And if not automatic, then... what? What if the redirector doesn't choose to redirect to the cop?

What's so hard to understand about "Cop inspects a target" and "Cop gets a result 'Your target is innocent/guilty'"?

It's a
role
, just like PGO/Weak Doc/Roleblocker/etc. Trying to dilute it or change what it fundamentally
is
, only cheapens it.
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Post Post #21 (isolation #5) » Wed May 25, 2011 8:38 pm

Post by ReaperCharlie »

No, because if you redirect a kill, their "target" changes. Their target dies. The NEW target.

Same with investigations. They get the investigation result that they'd have gotten on the NEW target, but without necessarily knowing that it's a different target than they thought they were targeting.

--

Also, most Bus Drivers I've seen can NOT busdrive themselves with anyone else.

Actually, I can't recall ever seeing one that could do that.

--

Like, take Metropolis: Revisited. M: R had framers, and it had godfathers, and it had a cop. That's fine. Great, thumbs up. Cop knows up-front that a guilty result might not really be a guilty. Cop knows up-front that an innocent result might not really be an innocent. This is all good. (It'd be less good if the setup didn't at least contain the *idea* that it might have godfathers and framers, but it did. So it's fine.)

Why would it be less good? They're perfectly common roles in non-Normal games.

--
But if you were going to have the Mixmaster work like that? No. Now the cop has a report that is literally 100% useless. May as well not even have bothered. It's the equivalent of putting a cop into a setup where all of the mafia are godfathers. Cop and godfather are both standard roles, but it begs the question: why bother having the cop to begin with? It's just not good design unless your design is "screw with the players", in which case, y'know, bastard mod.

Meh. I guess anything non-Normal is automatically bastard these days, at least in the current site meta.

--

It's not LYING to the player. It's giving them the result of their new target. They are left to assume for themselves based on what they know.

--

It weakens the cop in the same way that this thread wants to weaken the doc.
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ReaperCharlie
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Post Post #25 (isolation #6) » Thu May 26, 2011 5:57 am

Post by ReaperCharlie »

dramonic wrote:the fact a redirector can void the powers of a role is perfectly normal and/or balanced in my opinion.

QFT. Agreed 100%.

dramonic wrote:I use "your target" and not "name", but then again people playing in my games don't expect normal results that often...

"The person you ended up targetting" would be much worse IMO, even if it's more factual(ish).

Yeah, the second one is stupid.

I completely agree with the first; well, depending on the amount of flavor I'm including with the PMs, of course. If it's just a simple "Innocent"/"Guilty", then it's easy. If it's
this
though... well, that's a different story.

Spoiler:
Rikku's Night 2 Action Result Flavor PM wrote:
After observing the events of the day, you knew already that you'd be busy for quite a while that night. So you waited until the lights clicked off in the bunker and artificial 'night' fell, stripping down to your lightest 'combat' outfit, and making sure all of your buckles and straps are fastened snugly and securely. After waiting a few minutes to make sure nobody is stirring outside your hatch, you turn the gears and open it slowly. You immediately sneak to Furcolow's quarters and return the binoculars you stole the night before.

You may be a compulsive kleptomaniac, but you have morals too. Never steal outright when you can borrow just as easily. And you've gotten your use out of the binoculars anyway, and besides, you promised yourself that you'd never steal something for long enough that the rightful owner would fret at it being missing. After stepping out of Furcolow's room and closing the door softly and gently behind you, you sneak just two doors down to Muffin's quarters, and jimmy the lock. As soon as it's open, you begin searching through her belongings, rummaging through her stuff... searching for... you don't know what. You found something pretty awesome last night in Furcolow's room, maybe you'll find something equally as useful here.

After about four minutes, you hear Muffin begin to stir; you freeze and look carefully over your shoulder, breathing silently, heart pounding in your chest. But after thirty seconds that seem like thirty minutes, her chest begins to rise and fall softly and evenly again, and your pulse rate slowly descends from the plateau that it just skyrocketed to.

You continue to search through her belongings, being even more careful not to make any unnecessary noise. Inside one of her closets you find a sleek, very tight-looking bodysuit that you've never seen her wear, but you admit to yourself that you surely wouldn't mind watching her get into or out of it...

You shake your head, amused but disgusted at yourself. In one of the pockets you find a device like you've never seen before, and you read the side of it, hoping to gain a little more knowledge about this fascinating little gadget. The side reads: Intention Detection Device [IDD]. There is a warning label on the side not to use if you are pregnant, prone to epileptic seizures, or if you have never taken radiology training: this device may cause overexposure to plutonium particles if used improperly.

You mull the name of the device over in your mind: Intention Detection? So you can tell what others intend to do? Interesting. You slip the small device into one of the pouches you carry on your slim waist, and make sure to place everything exactly back as it was; except for the IDD, of course.

You sneak out of her room and continue down the titanium-plated hallway. It's a good thing you're light on your feet and don't wear metallic shoes, otherwise your footsteps would cause an obnoxious 'clank, clank, clank' sound as you crouch-walked through passageways and hatches.

As you skulk through the bunker, you pass door after door:

...Cortana...

...Samus Aran...

...Chun Li...

All these were brave and beautiful women who fought for what was right, but it did not avail them in the end. They perished nonetheless. You stop at the next door. bv310. You decide to try out the IDD on her and see what happens. You focus your attention on getting into her room without disturbing her sleep... carefully... carefully...

...and, you're in. You creep over to her bed, and watch her sleep for a few seconds: so peaceful; tranquil as a child. As if all is right in the world. Not a care of worry on her face, just a sweet half-smile brought on by a pleasant dream. Her jacket lays on the chair in front of the computer desk, she must have been up late again -- as usual. Nothing too suspicious about that, you ponder. But she's asleep now, and here you are, with a brand new device that you haven't even been able to test out yet. And her daytime activity has been well worth questioning, regardless of how innocent she looks in her bed at this moment.

So you feel through your pouch and pull out the IDD gadget, giving a quick glance at the directions, which instruct you to train the device squarely at either of her temples, while watching her chest rise and fall. It is very important, says the document, that the target's breathing be even throughout the entire 25-second process. You take a breath and begin to focus the device at bv310's head, careful to keep it still and not waver.

All of a sudden, you hear a footstep just outside the door. Your heart jumps straight into your throat. You are absolutely positive that you're about to be caught, and you immediately drop the device on the desk as softly as possible and leap across the room to the closet, step in, and close the door most of the way behind you, breathing heavily, suddenly aware that you're sweating profusely.

You wait, watching through the crack of dim light the doorway. Waiting... waiting...

You sit silently crouched in bv310's closet for a good five minutes. You realize that from the time you heard the noise, to the time you were silent in the closet, just under two seconds elapsed. You curse to yourself, and realize that you've gotten slow because you haven't practiced your trade in quite a while before the last two nights. You vow to yourself that next time will be closer to one second, and after waiting five more minutes without hearing a sound, just for good measure, you step out of the closet and make your way over to the bedside desk to pick up the IDD again.

You look down at the screen display; it reads:


Partial result: Inconclusive.
Reacquire subject to continue.


...in yellowy-orange letters. You reset the device and begin the scanning process again, sure to keep a careful eye on her chest, and a careful ear open for any sign of disturbance either in her room or outside in the corridor. After twenty-five seconds, you hear a very soft, yet very rewarding click. You look at the device, and the screen display changes from graphs and diagrams cataloguing the inside of her brain into a more concise result, which displays:


No Malicious Intent Detected.


...in a decisively green color. Surprised at the result, you take the Intention Detection Device and stow it back in your waistpouch, and exit the room quietly. As you sneak back to your own room, you consider your results.

So... she really
is
as innocent as she looks!
you ponder, surprised.

You come to a fork in the passageways: For a second, you contemplate returning the IDD to its owner, but at the last second you reconsider and decide to just return to your room. You've had enough close calls for tonight, and you don't want to push your luck!

You get back to your quarters and breathe a huge sigh of relief as you hear the soft click of the lock behind you, finally. You walk slowly over to your bed, unwinding your scarf from your neck and kicking your boots off softly. You reach behind your back, untying your small yellow bikini top, and lay it gently on top of your dresser. You reach down to your waist; pushing down, you wiggle slowly out of your tight olive-colored miniskirt. Then, finally a bit more comfortable, you pull back the cover of your bed, hop lightly onto the mattress, and pull the comforter up under your chin, curling up on your side into a ball, and snuggling your cheek into your soft pillow...

A minute later, your eyes are closed and you are fast asleep.

_
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"Take me to Pleasure Town!" "Look, the most Glorious Rainbow Ever!" "Do me on it!" -

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ReaperCharlie
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Post Post #28 (isolation #7) » Thu May 26, 2011 10:34 am

Post by ReaperCharlie »

I pretty much agree with Kdub.

/thread

Cave Johnson, we're done here.
Show
"Take me to Pleasure Town!" "Look, the most Glorious Rainbow Ever!" "Do me on it!" -

Spoiler:
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