Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[Heliman]

VOTE: Heliman because he was calling me scum in Newbie 1094

lol, hi spaidlle.

VOTE: Nintendoaddict11: Because nintendo is a bullshit system.

[Heliman]

Reactions. And not voting at all makes one look scummy, so RVS.

BAAAANHH! Isnt it to generate disscusson?

Using a randomizer to pick your vote and then making sure everyone knows just how random it is defeats the purpose of a random vote, and makes you sound like nervous scum.

how does saying you're using a randomizer defeat the pourpos of a vote that's inherently random to begin with that makse no sense

[Heliman]

VOTE: jilynne1991 for getting a scared when he votes someone who is still active

[Heliman]

EDIT: also for staying in RVS too long.

[Heliman]

unvote, vote demonhybrid[/vote]

calling someone definite scum o n the second page, over a RV. Plus blindly following bobby

Hiplop, your typos are so purposeful it's not even funny, I smell... what, a survivor? Cultist? Certainly something that doesn't want to die tonight, because your really short and shitty posts do not follow form with the rest of your meta.

[Heliman]

@jilynne1991
Ok, fine, UNVOTE:

Holy crap, I really am just batting 1000 in this game.

FOS: Heliman

for what I said in 127. Vote stays on archaebob for now.

Oh yeah, sorry about that, this is my first mini normal here, I just sorta assumed that it would be a bunch of the traditional ones. Still, could you explain how that would that get me a FOS again?

[Heliman]

(PFP)
That's harsh, man.
Anyways, back to buisness.

So let me get this straight, you want Jil to answer a question, but refuse to explain your 'process'? In the words of Hiraki...

HMMZORZ

I'm pretty sure what archebob is doing right now is trawling for a reaction tell. I'm personally going to leave him be on it for now, but if he never follows up on what he was looking for or was looking for somthing really stupid then it will be a+ + scumread to me and I will push to lynch.

[Heliman]

@Ace

What archaebob is doing right now is dictating the game completely. Almost every post since page 4 has been directly related to archaebob's comments or questions. He isn't trying to generate discussion, he's trying to control it and lead the town to a mislynch D1.

This is a load of bullshit reasoning. Being able to play as a vocal town player is practically the opposite of acting scummy. Furthermore, as long as his reasoning is legit, you have no goddamn buisness accusing him of trying to push a mislynch D1, especially since he isn't showing any signs of tunneling.

Can't really be counterproductive, the only thing that's beneficial for town to be secretive about for long periods of time is reaction testing, and we're well past the stage of the game where that's the best tactic.

Stop trying to dictate how others scum hunt, a reaction test is legitimate at any stage of the game. It may always be underhanded to use, but as long as the trap doesn't look like scum covering it's own ass it isn't malicious.

What you did at the beginning of the game was pro-town, with nice reaction testing and discussion generating. However now the reaction testing is largely irrelevant and discussion is going in full force; continuing your tactics is highly anti-town at best.

It isn't anti town, if at any point there is a player acting suspicious that isn't giving a solid read, a reaction test of him is both pro town and viable.

I'm going to guess you'll keep doing this until you've appeared to generate some discussion about everyone, or at least most of the game, then "explain" your techniques in some bs way, choose someone for the lynch and wait for everyone else to sheep you.

If you think that he's scummy for an argument he hasn't made yet then you are either tunneling or desperate to scumhunt to appear town.

I don't think there's anything better for me to do than to attempt to fuck up your process right now.

Only if you're scum it is.

@Hiphop&Giitah

Major FOS for those contentless bandwagons. pressure=/=voting someone then sitting around with a thumb stuck up your ass.

[Heliman]

Oh, it's okay Jil, want some candy?
Haa haa. Hee hee. Hoo hoo.
Sick burns aside, are you 13? You sort of dodged that question.

@HipLop

Well it seems that hiplop is boxing himself into a corner here, especially with that bullshit vote he made on Giitah in 207. He's also a dumbass for not using meta.

@Nintendoaddict1

Two things: first, your argument against Hiplop is odd, because even though he made the absolution that Giitah is town, you've totally ignored the OTHER absolution he made that said that Giitah is scum. You're mistaking a way of speaking with a scum tell and that's NOT COOL.

@ Nintendo -
You need to spend some more time in the newbie queue, my friend. The fact that it would even cross your mind for an instant that claiming right now would be a good idea is some major facepalm.

You were at L-2 and you're saying you find claiming to be a bad idea in that situation?

Claiming either comes when the player feels like it or if he's at L-1 with a hammer over his head with people asking him to claim. So yeah, claiming at L-2 is a bad idear most any situation.

@Giitah

@Heliman As for explaining my recent actions, well, I might as well speak now too. I'm a believer that pressure does change response, so I did consent to vote jump. That being said, no, I don't actually think he's suspicious, and yes, I disagree with you on 'pointless voting', because actions in this game are hardly ever pointless. Even random votes have significance.

You're right, pointless votes do have significance, but only to the people who notice the pointless votes (out of RVS, mind) and think: "What a passive player!" If you really want to add pressure, bring an argument, or any player with so much as a chip on his shoulder will be unaffected by it.

[Heliman]

and now I'm going to have to look into your meta to see if you always act overdefensive like that.

[Heliman]

@DemonHybrid

If I had a nickel for every time I've seen a newb town fail to scum hunt retroactively... I'd have at least over 25 cents I'm sure. Point is, it happens often.

Which doesn't mean it should.

@Jilynne

Reading into Archaebobs meta I've noticed that the following question is a pet peeve of his, but frankly I don't care. Jily, who are your top 3 scumpicks right now? remember to state why for each person.

@Archaebob:

...Well I didn't see anything as overdefensive in the games where you were scum. w/e, reduced to null tell on that line of reasoning. however.

Interestingly enough, I did find a thread where you got all up in a player's ass about FoSing in RVS stage, and how that player turned up scum. I assume that that hunch is where you're getting your current read from. U_U mm hmm. However, I would like to note one teensy weensy little difference between your scumhunt and the result of this past game. It can be found here:

I think that, without realizing it, jilyenne reflexively softened her random vote on hiplop because hiplop is her buddy. That knowledge affected her confidence in random voting him because she knew that the vote was fake. Downgrading the vote to an FoS was her subconscious way of distancing from it.

Funny thing is, when you called out the scum in that old game, the person the scum FoS'd was town. Explain the difference.


NINJA EDIT: oh lawds I better actually post that game I was talking about.
Mini 1026

[Heliman]

@Deuxieme

Actually, in addition to just going over a few players, would you mind giving us your thoughts on the whole game so far? You know, what you've thought of all the various arguments and whatnot.

@Nintendoaddict11

Do you have any response to the hiplop argument that I blew out of the water earlier? It was pretty scummy of you to pull.

@archaebob

@ Heliman -
Can you provide the quotes from my meta that are bothering you?

I don't need any, there is just the simple fact that the player who the scum that you got lynched FoS'd in that game turned up town.

It's never protown to defend someone unless you already

know

that they aren't capable of defending themselves, and they are actually about to be lynched.

*Cough* 13, new player and had half the active players on her tail stemming from a bad argument. *cough* Also, I totally agree with Ace's post regarding your Jil case. This totally invalidates your argument from its advent. Also, its anti-town to point that out? If there is some sort of GLARING FLAW in someone's argument, pointing it out is obviously the pro town thing to do, because it makes sure that people don't start wasting pages and pages of time and info riding on a lame horse of an argument. Plus, you certainly didn't complain when I brushed a few of the bad arguments off you.

unvote vote Pine

Read his iso, note how utterly devoid of content his play is, and vote this lurker scum. He's done nothing, and his multiple failures to read the thread, combined with weird posts like this

A policy lynch? really? Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

[Heliman]

@Nintendoaddict11

What case? You don't talk about hiplop much, just to FoS him and say he's boxing himself into a corner. And how was it scummy for me to do?

Are you dense? the argument you made in #209, which I addressed in #221.

@Archarbob

If you have a point to make about my meta, you need to provide quotes. Context is everything. I don't even know what game you're talking about right now.

Don't play stupid, I linked the game in #226. The game is my quote.

It's never protown to defend someone unless you already

know

that they aren't capable of defending themselves, and they are actually about to be lynched.

*Cough* 13, new player and had half the active players on her tail stemming from a bad argument.

First ten pages, people talking about something instead of sitting on their asses. What's your point?

Now you're taking my post out of context. If you look at it's corresponding quote (re added since you decided to omit that bit), it's obvious that I was giving reasons for why helping Jil wasn't by your own description "anti-town."

This totally invalidates your argument from its advent. Also, its anti-town to point that out? If there is some sort of GLARING FLAW in someone's argument, pointing it out is obviously the pro town thing to do, because it makes sure that people don't start wasting pages and pages of time and info riding on a lame horse of an argument.

It doesn't invalidate my argument at all. What do you think my argument is exactly?

You know damn well it's about the FoS argument.

And yes, it's anti-town to point that out in the first ten pages of a game. You are depriving the town of a reaction. If it's near deadline and a player is about to be mislynched because of a bad argument,

then

you can jump right in. Anybody with half a brain could see that the wagon on jil wasn't a lynch wagon.

But archae, you DO get a reaction! Not from the hapless target, but from the scummy player that tried to pull the bad argument, like you!

A policy lynch? really?

I don't know what makes you think 1) that I'm pushing for a lynch or 2) that my Pine vote is purely based on policy.

unvote vote Pine

Do something. You're still voting me for my

Giitah

vote? Give me a break.

@ everyone -

Read his iso, note how utterly devoid of content his play is, and vote

<1)

this lurker

<2)

scum.

Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

I haven't said that it doesn't apply to them. All you know is that I picked

one

target and made an argument about that

one

person.

There are 3 players who are making little-to-no content posts. To pick and vote only one without addressing how this one the other two is a double standard.

Heliman, I have no patience for games. If you have an issue with me, drop a vote and make a case.

If you have no patience with games, why are you playing mafia? Contrary to popular beliefs held by many aggressive players, I don't have to vote to scumhunt, so if you me to make my case you're in for quite the pleasant surprise because you're looking at it.

How about helping me find out why Pine hasn't done anything to help town?

Do I look like a sheep to you? Screw it, I don't care. The reason why pine hasn't done anything to help town yet is because, to quote your own words, It was "the first ten pages." There, problem fucking solved.

[Heliman]

Um, duh?

[Heliman]

@Archaebob

No defense? Ok, now

that's

scummy enough for a vote.

VOTE: Archaebob

@nintendoaddict1

Um, duh?

Exactly. So are you for or against a hiplop lynch?

Is this contradiction scummy? It's one thing to make a contradiction, and another thing to make a scummy one. IMO, Hiplop's contradiction isn't all that scummy, and even comes off as a simple change in opinions. Telling a scummy contradictions is usually a matter of weather or not it was made with either malicious intent or in pursuit of the player covering his own ass, weather or not it actually fits either category is up to you.

[Heliman]

V/LA until Wednesday, not that you care, but I'm going on a cross-country trip to Boston.

[Heliman]

Yo biznatches,

I'm back early!

*reads* *reads* *reads*
Oh hello mason claim. Whatever, sounds like reasonable enough claim to me. I didn't have any scum reads on Demon to begin with.

@archaebob

*Digs around, finds questions*

@ Heliman -
1) If you weren't voting me right now, who would you be voting and why?

2) What's the intended purpose of your current vote? Are you succeeding in your objective?

1) Jil, essentially for the reasons Demon listed and provided that she actually returns from her V/LA.
2) To prompt you actually respond to my argument. Have you responded? No.


That said, I'll start where I left off, Archie boy, my vote on you isn't coming off until you can show me how flawed my argument is, the fact that you're refusing to do so is the scummiest thing since scumtown; not to mention you were doing some pretty bullshit question dodges at the time. You also say that I'm scum right now. Now that I'm back, you may want to follow up on that.

What else is there?
You've made alot of accusations at people while I've been gone, I didn't like your case on demon particularly, and not just because he claimed mason at the end.

So. Here I am. Pick me apart Archaebob. Pick apart my argument, pick apart my entire play style today. Noting the terseness of your words in regards to me since I've been gone, I'm pretty sure you've been holding off on some BS case until now, so lets hear it.

[Heliman]

Yeah, its this closed hand shit that's bothering me most. I'm not buying it any more.

According to you, we are at the stage of the game when we should be "lynching scum," I'm the guy you say is scum. If you can't make a case against me then you're a full of shit and we should lynch you.

[Heliman]

Yes, with my current argument included.

[Heliman]

That's approximately 4 minutes.

[Heliman]

Hah! I'd like to see you try.

Quoted
Meta

However, my whole case isn't enough, I will not change my opinion unless you actually make your case against me too. I have a very good reason why too.

[Heliman]

One:[url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17245]Newbie 1094[url]

Two: Hiplop- Don't you have a thing against having town call their scumpicks?

[Heliman]

Oh damn I messed it up again, well at least you have the link.

[Heliman]

Hm? It depends on what his reasoning was. I actually was going to post a question similar to yours just now but you beat me to it.

[Heliman]

What about his meta makes him look town? How does his play now contrast with his scum play?

[Heliman]

No I mean in general. What do you think of him?

He hasn't been around enough for any strong reads. Aside from his post about him mentioning that you were being surreptitious with your suspicion of me, I've noticed his arguments have been very heavily meta based. There's that, at least.

[Heliman]

-5 brownie points, Demonhybrid claimed mason too.

[Heliman]

Another one? What with the replacements, absent players, and people who have been on or are currently on V/LA, I'm tempted to ask for an extension.

[Heliman]

No, I want archaebob to make a case against me TODAY, thanks. We have 3 days after today, be paitent.

[Heliman]

Better suggestion:

Request Extension.

[Heliman]

actually by my count the votes are stacked pine:4 and BA:3.

[Heliman]

@Heliman feel like explaining why you're still on bob at this stage in the day? Everyone who posts today needs to either join one of the larger wagons or state why they would prefer a no lynch. And there'd better be a lot of posts in the next 8 hours.

hm? I thought it was fine as long as votes for one player>than the votes for any other player.

whatever,UNVOTE: VOTE: pine. Of the three role claims today, I consider his the most suspicious.

[Heliman]

@Hiplop

gonna assume mafias kill got blocked, and a vig of some sort killed DH.

This is... What? No vig in his right mind would ever kill a mason N1, he's too valuable. Plus, mafia almost always prioritizes killing PR town before aggressive town, especially one that can make himself confirmed town at any time by outing his partner.

@Nintendoaddict

VOTE: Nintendoaddict11

I'll get to Barry Allen tomorrow. My vote was poorly timed pressure and I'm not prepared to make a case that will shift the tide of this lynch.

I would prefer to hear from a replacement, but it doesn't seem that that is going to happen.

unvote, vote: Pine

And that is a lock... why the hell lynch a claimed PR?

FoS foil

If there is a vig, you've got a target named foil.

This post Nintendo made after the hammer is a huge scum read. First, he never bitched about the Pine wagon the whole time town's votes on him were building and held his tongue on the whole matter only until after pine was hammered. That's pretty scummy in it's own right. BUT THEN, and this is the important part, he FoS'd Foil and asked for him to be vigged BEFORE PINE FLIPPED TOWN. Only scum could know that pine was town before he died.

[Heliman]

On top of him claiming, I said why I thought Pine was town earlier in the thread, go back and read it.

I said you never spoke out against the wagon. The entire reason pine was lynched was because he put off a big argument for the longest time and then just role claimed instead. In fact, you also said yourself in #666 that "the RB claim was a bit sketchy."

[Heliman]

Reason enough to lynch? I, and six other players say yes.

[Heliman]

Because according to you the 7th person to vote is somehow deserving a vig kill before we even know the flip.

[Heliman]

Apparently as much as you can once pine is already dead. We didn't see you doing that yesterday, did we?

[Heliman]

If you want to hear from me you'll have to bring a case or something, because currently we have a:

roleblocker(confirmed)
Mason(confirmed)
Mason(hidden)
Tracker(claimed)
Sensor(claimed)
Power role that targets at night(if tracker is real)

Barry, if you're really a tracker, 6/11 town is a claimed/confirmed/hidden a power role. Am I the only one who thinks that this setup looks unbalanced and unlikely or is this a common occurrence here?

[Heliman]

IF THERE ARE ANY OTHER ROLES OUT THERE IT IS CURRENTLY IMPERATIVE THAT YOU DON'T CLAIM UNLESS BARRY OUTS YOU.

I am for outing, if Barry outs a player who agrees with him, we lynch nintendo tonight. If not, we have both our scum right where we want them.

[Heliman]

Oh yeah I almost forgot:


ARCHAEBOB.
CASE.
NOW.

[Heliman]

Mafia tracker? Isn't that a horrible counterbalance for masons, a sensor and a doctor because it can only ever pick up on the doctor?

[Heliman]

As for me I stand by my vote on Heliman. He wants me to out someone I believe to be the doc? Is he kidding? That means the doc either has to protect himself (if he can) or he dies the next night phase. I think we have enough roles out there right now, thank you very much, and asking for me to out a doc is downright scummy. My vote stays on Heliman.

I never asked.

Everyone, how many scum do you think we're looking at here in this game? At first I was good with assuming three Mafia but now I'm not sure anymore... Heliman's point on the uselessness of a Mafia Tracker is making me doubt that there are only three Mafia.

IMO 2:11 ratio is pretty common in my book.

[Heliman]

-Barry is scum tracker, and his report is on town powerrole. Barry knows a town powerrole already and this doesn't hurt us

Actually this one depends on weather or not scum can daychat. Where I come from they can, but I understand that usually they can't here.

[Heliman]

@xvart

I'm halfway through page nine right now but I see a archaebob/hiphop scum team as a possibility so far. I wish that archaebob wagon would have gone through when it was building momentum.

Your nine pages in, forming scumteams at that point isn't helpful at all.

@Archaebob

@Archaebob

A massclaim? Not in assention with that. A claim from the possible night targeting role I think should be necessary, but you shouldn't fish for the mason like that.

@ Heliman -
Before I post my rebuttal to all your nonsense from yesterday, I have to know: at this moment, do you still think I'm scum?

Archaebob... are you really trying to put this off again? Stop dicking around, you know I think you're scummy.

[Heliman]

EDIT: WOAH DID NOT SEE THAT FRIENDLY NEIGHBOUR CLAIM, one sec I'm making an argument.

[Heliman]

Claim: Friendly Neighbor

.

I

targeted archaebob last night. I now have a QT with him in which we can discuss at any time. Archaebob isn't a PR at all.

Foil, why did you target archaebob last night when he said himself that he thought you were town? What would possibly have warranted you using Friendly Neighbor on him?

[Heliman]

HELI SUMMARY

Given Foil's very Bum claim, I'm willing to hammer him tonight, I can see basically no chance of him flipping town.

Archaebob, I'm very disappointed you never had any argument, but fortunately Foil's transgressions far outweigh your own right now. To mimic you're own closed hand behavior: I may tell you why I wanted your argument later.

Either Nintendo or Barry are likely to be killed tonight, if it isn't obvious.

It's also interesting to note that if Foil and Barry are scum Barry doesn't need to be a tracking role.

[Heliman]

Heliman

:

Post 89

- Irregardless of the cult/survivor thought process, how does creating typos prevent someone from dying at night? The typos thing is such a petty and ridiculous thing on which to latch.

Post 171

-

I'm pretty sure what archebob is doing right now is trawling for a reaction tell. I'm personally going to leave him be on it for now, but if he never follows up on what he was looking for or was looking for somthing really stupid then it will be a+ + scumread to me and I will push to lynch.

What is the point of exposing a reaction fishing plot? Doesn't that undermine everything? Also, why are you answering for archaebob when being questioned by nintendoaddict? This looks like someone wanted to show how observant. Also, the "I'm going to watch archaebob to see if he follows up" also seems to undermine the intent.

Did he follow up adequately in your opinion?

Post 242

-

A policy lynch? really? Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

I felt this was spot on due to my opinion on the D1 lurker hunt fest.

Post 753

- the 2:11 ratio is wrong, but I understand that he has other site experience.

Heliman

- can you provide links for games like this from your other site?[/area]

1: It's common for players to feign stupidity and lay low so scum will pass them off as an easy lynch and abstain from NKing them, this holds true for many third party roles.
2: A "reaction tell" can also mean "scum covering his own ass," depending on what or if he was actually looking for some kind of specific response.
3: In retrospect, I don't really know why I thought that. My bad.

[Heliman]

what the fu- man that came out wrong. Just look at the tiny numbered answers at the bottom instead of the shitload of garble above it.

[Heliman]

*click* there's the hammer.

SHAME ON YOU NINTENDOADDICT FOR HAMMERING, YOU SHOULD BE FOSED AND VIGGED FOR DOING SUCH A THING TO A CLAIMED Pfffffffthahahahahaha. Ok, seriously, lets see that flip then, scum or no scum I'm curious about what his rolename is gonna be.

[Heliman]

With the amount of power roles around you on the table you should be a little less morose about your own life prospects.

[Heliman]

Guys, Guys, calm down. There's only one way to decide wether or not Nintendo's power role, and that's to kill Xvart. Honestly, you're all second guessing yourselves. We kill him tonight, and if we fail, we lynch nintendo tomarrow, how is that a hard thing to deal with? Town players are an expendable lot, so this way we get confirmed scum either way.

Now, I'm going to reread this whole mess of posts laid (mostly by Xvart) before me and make sure this is legitaroony, then hammer.

One last note on the number of powers: If this does turn out to be such a role-heavy round, it has taught me something interesting about mafia rounds. I had always assumed such role-heavy rounds would result in a quick read of reports and a quick win. Instead, it has created intense debate over whether each role exists and whether we should believe a claim. It also opened the door to at least one mafioso (Foilist) fake claiming a town role and almost getting away with it.

Actually, your thoughts tie in perfectly with [http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... 7s_3rd_Law]Stoofer's 3rd law of Mafia.[/url] Perhaps this is where the mod was going with this? Who knows.

[Heliman]

Finished now.

@XVART

One last thing:

It's interesting because we have an unaccounted for mason out there and nobody posting right now seems to think or care about that, which is also suggests that the scum are on my wagon.

Ok then Xvart, are you the Mason? You can save us a mislynch right now if you claim.

[Heliman]

Well, he has dude with an intent to hammer him now, the little weasel doesn't have much of an excuse to not claim at this point.

[Heliman]

VOTE: xvart See you tomorrow folks. I'm going back to bed.

[Heliman]

This Late Bah post is also a shameless plugin: I'm looking for players to join my highly experimental, multi-chatroom mafia game. PM if interested, because 100% of this is off-site and linking my post breaks the guidelines.

[Heliman]

Making a response to this seeing as I have a little spare time: Darn. oh well, I'm really happy I was at least able to pin Nintendo with deamonhybrid's tip, you couldn't ask for a better mason .

As I said in deadchat, since foil claimed ace as his partner in the quicktopic from the get-go, it would have made no sense if foil was trying to make Ace out to be the fall-guy, because it would have meant that he went into his plan knowing he would be caught. Shame I got picked off before I could mention that >_>.

Thoughts on the game? I especially want to hear from scum.

One thought I guess. Archaebob, that closed hand policy really help my opinion of your alignment. Actually, it was the entire reason why I once again donned my Kingslayer cap and went on you D1. I realize that some of it was for reaction tells which is fine, but most of it was just you being thrifty with your information. IMO, you should either voice your thoughts when you have them or keep the status of your side target totally withheld, because just dangling it over town's head really doesn't help, especially when you can NK'd early for being an active-hunter.

BTW, feel free to ask me any questions of me, I'm a lot nicer when not playing and I'll get to them when I can.

[Heliman]

Best way to get better is to make as many arguments as you can, even if some fail. Also, if you are ever foggy on the details, you will find your play phenominally better if you brush up on them. Knowing everything that has happened in the game is as important as knowing how to scumhunt. Actually, they're practically one and the same.