Mini 1190: Game over

[Hoppster]

I hate millers.
Nice Roleclaim.

???


VOTE: Captain Corporal

Because he's scum.

Never played with a Miller D1 claim before. However, Empking is probably town by virtue of Captain Corporal being scum.

I am GMT +1 (British Standard Time).

[Hoppster]

Unvote; Vote: Hoppster

for that fucking stupid second. I'm struggling to see your reasoning, assuming this isn't random, and if that quoted post is your reasoning... jumpy much?

You honestly don't see it?

What exactly is Captain Corporal saying with his post?

Nothing.

Is the claim scummy? Is it a town-tell? Is it neutral?

We don't know, because CC-scum has just made a horribly transparently fluffy post in an attempt to look like he's commenting on the claim.

"Nice Roleclaim" - what does that even mean?!


P-Edit:

VOTE: CC
You give us godawful questions and then you vote the Miller claim. RVS is over, folks.

He didn't vote the Miller claim.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SleepyKrew

CC

could

be idiotic town (but is likely scum).

SK is definitely over-enthusiastic scum either distancing or being opportunistic (depending on CC-alignment - SleepyKrew is scum both ways).

[Hoppster]

I don't think scum would make a mistake like SK did.

Do you not feel that SK's post felt like an over-eager rush onto the wagon?

[Hoppster]

Semi-wall below, sorry all.

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

... Come again?

Of course

there's a chance he's town (and therefore a Miller), that's the situation WITH EVERYBODY.

Please... with this logic, you should never ever make a vote apart from a select few scenarios when somebody is confirmed scum.

Hoppster

- First post of his (which includes a CC vote) appears serious, kind of appears as if he's jumping the gun here. (Scum)
- #26: Calls out Sleepy for over-eagerly rushing onto a wagon. Contradiction. Hopp overeagerly started a wagon and pushed for it in RVS. (Scum)

JUDGMENT: Lack of posts doesn't set anything in stone for me yet, but he's leaning scum.

What? How is a serious vote in RVS scummy?

I am also not contradicting myself in

any shape or form

.

Even if I was overeagerly starting a wagon (and I firmly believe I was not), my overeagerness in starting a wagon and Sleepy rushing overeagerly onto a wagon are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not even being hypocritical, if that's what you're driving at. Starting a wagon and rushing onto a wagon are

very different things

.

My wagon was justified, anyhow. Or are you saying this is not the case?

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

In fact, here's another lovely quote illustrating this:

Because here's the thing, it's not certain that Empking is a miller or not. I don't want to keep my vote on him throughout the whole day phase and potentially mislynch a townie.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

You have 2 points on Thomith - Null and Null-Scum.

You have 2 Scum points on myself. You have 3 on SleepyKrew.

And yet you vote for Thomith?!

Empking

- Claims miller right off the bat, you all know how I feel about this. (Null)

Yep, that's right, I know you think it's... null? That's not how it looked earlier...

IGMEOY: Empking

^ Ie. MILLER CLAIM TOTALLY NOT NULL

FoS: Toro

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thomith
Thank you Sundy

^ plzexplain

1. You're attacking me over doubting your Miller claim. What you fail to realize is that

all of us don't know who you are exactly

, and that there is a possibility that you're faking the Miller claim so you can get the cop of your trail. Your attacking me due to my thinking appears jumpy to me.

It may be me being slightly incoherent due to the time, but I think that's a scumslip.

How?

[Hoppster]

Oh, come on.

You're seriously voting SK for the Miller Mason Recruiter obvjoke claim?

:/

ani, do you agree with panz that Toro is not scum?


Panz, why vote Empking over SleepyKrew?

Realising SleepyKrew's claim was a joke, do you still think Empking is gambitting scum?


jakesh: Did you read my post immediately above yours?

[Hoppster]

Hoppster:
Only an FoS? No vote?

My conscience is satisfied with my vote on you for the time being.

I didn't like the "Aww I missed RVS" post. Then he contributed, so I unvoted.
"All of us don't know exactly who you are." Does nobody else read this as "I know you're town but the town doesn't"? Am I going senile?

1. Why vote Thomith immediately after?

2. You're looking far too hard for a scum-slip there.


@ Elfen: How is it possible to see the Random Questions that Captain Corporal asked but NOT see that we had moved out of RVS (both happened on the very same page)?

[Hoppster]

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

[Hoppster]

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ See this, Empking?

Don't ignore it please.

(Takes into account even the 'Godfather claim'. I'm pretty sure I have read games in which somebody put themselves forward for investigation and the Godfather claim issue was likewise brought up, but the person was town, and I don't think I've actually read any games where a Godfather does it.)

Almost done with my post.

[Hoppster]

FML.

Going to sleep on this as Empking is making me seriously doubt my Toro read.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

@ Mod: I'm sure everybody finds your facts very interesting. >>

[Hoppster]

I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town

Jakesh, you need to explain your Empking vote. Pronto.

[Hoppster]

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

Oh shit, missed this.

At that moment in time I felt that Thomith was a bigger threat, I didn't have as many points on him as most of his posts were the same thing and I felt he was scum trying to appear active. Empking's play I was going to evaluate some more through time and then make a judgment.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

[Hoppster]

glad you like the quote. Just wait until you get to the votecounts

anyways, I'll delete that duplicate post with the bad quote tags for you

This is a different shade of purple to your other posts, Mod.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

My apologies for that last post, my computer screwed it up.

I don't see anything relevant really, do you? (Not being sarcastic I'm just wondering.)

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?


Don't want a Panzer lynch. I think it's quite a strong town-tell that he didn't realise the obvjoke SleepyKrew claim.

My vote on Emp was 50% to see his reaction, he only asked Why which perfectly makes sense.

The other 50% of the reasoning would be I hate two people pointing fingers at eachother back and forth so early into the game. HE says he claimed Godfather, he did not claim godfather and that made no sense to me. IT seemed like it was becoming more bitching then legit arguing with some helpful purpose behind it.

Why are you still voting Empking?

You've seen his reaction (which I suppose is an acceptable reason for voting Empking) but how does bitching mean Empking is scum?

I'm back
So all I've seen is Toto failvoting Elfen (bus?), Toto and Empking yelling at each other, and Toto using terribad logic.

Why bus(?) after Toto failvoting Elfen but not after Toto yelling at Empking?

[Hoppster]

Don't want a Panzer lynch. I think it's quite a strong town-tell that he didn't realise the obvjoke SleepyKrew claim.

Does this town-tell also apply to Animorph/xvart?

Not quite so much.

Ani pretty much piggybacked off Panzer's post so doesn't get as much credit from me.


Thomith: Weird = scummy?

[Hoppster]

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

Do you know for sure that Empking is Miller? No.

Do I? No. Although as I've said before I'm certain he's not.

Okay.

Let me explain to you why that is scum-logic.

Your reasoning for not voting Empking earlier seems to have been (as I did think it was, but I wanted to clarify) that there remained a possibility that he was actually a Miller.

That completely fails to take into account basic town logic, which I will now explain in the spoiler in a wholly intentionally patronising manner.

Spoiler: BASIC TOWN LOGIC EXPLAINED

Section 1: Uninformed majority

Mafia is, as I understand it, the informed minority against the uninformed majority.

For the sake of keeping it simple (and we really do need to do that quite clearly), I will assume that you are town (ie. the uninformed majority).

As the uninformed majority, apart from certain circumstances (which we shall not go into in this [and I shall pretend do not exist] - let's keep it simple, after all) we do not know for sure who is in the informed minority and who is in the uninformed majority. We can make judgements, but we will never know for certain - there will always be a chance we are wrong.

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 1: There will always be a chance that somebody (who is not you) could be uninformed majority OR informed minority.

Section 2: Voting (and the voted)

So, you vote for who you think is the informed minority. Using our knowledge from Section 1, however, we also know that whoever we do vote will always have a chance of being the uninformed majority OR the informed minority.

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 2: Whoever we vote always has a chance of being uninformed majority OR informed minority.

Section 3: Truth

The uninformed majority can be assumed to be, by and large, truthful whenever possible (bearing in mind we're keeping things simple). It is the informed minority who lie (having knowledge to hide).

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 3: The uninformed majority are truthful.

Section 4: Normalcy

Scum Millers.

No.

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 4: There are no people in the informed minority who are Millers.

Section 5: Tying everything together (with context)

.........................

> 5.1 Toro vs. Empking

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

1. Using what we know from Section 1 and 2, we know that Empking does indeed have a chance of being town (aka uninformed majority).
   
2. Using what we know from Section 3, we know that if Empking is town, he probably is a Miller as he claims to be.
   
3. Using what we know from Section 4, we know that if Empking is a Miller, he is not scum (informed minority).

And now using point

b

together with point

c

, we can logically conclude that if Empking is not a Miller, he must be scum.

How? Well, if he's not a Miller, that means he's not being truthful. But we know that townies are truthful. Therefore he is not a townie. Therefore he is scum.

That was easy, wasn't it?

So, by saying there's a chance Empking is a Miller, you're actually saying there's a chance that he is town.

But we already know that (see Section 1)!

So, actually, you're not saying anything at all. It's like saying "I'm not voting Empking because it starts with a capital E."

You're just stating a fact. You have NO logical reason for not voting Empking.

.........................

> 5.2 Toro vs. Thomith

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

However, even if we do assume for the sake of argument that your reason for not voting Empking is logical (and really, it's not) then we run into an issue when approaching your Thomith vote.

As shown, your argument "I won't vote Empking because he could be a Miller" simplifies down into "I won't vote Empking because he could be town".

However, you have no such issues about voting Thomith.

But, don't you have any qualms about voting him?

We can use your reason for not voting Empking here, as it is equally applicable. Couldn't Thomith be town? There's always a chance that he is (see Section 1), just like there's a chance Empking is town (and therefore a Miller)!

tl;dr

- Umm. Just going to re-quote myself from an earlier post here:

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

Never played with a Miller D1 claim before. However, Empking is probably town by virtue of Captain Corporal being scum.

Is the claim scummy? Is it a town-tell? Is it neutral?CC

could

be idiotic town (but is likely scum).

What is the relationship between Empking and "fluff posting, possibly idiotic town" CC?

SK is definitely over-enthusiastic scum either distancing or being opportunistic (depending on CC-alignment - SleepyKrew is scum both ways).

In the last two quotes of Hoppster he is already backing down off of his CC scum claim, which convienently comes directly after getting some heat.

Don't be stupid.

I purposely oversold the scumminess of CC's post to try and get out of RVS and get discussion generated and to push my top scum-read at the time.

However, with Empking-scum, CC-scum's reaction to the Miller-claim would have been less "guuuuh?" (which is how it came across) because I find it unlikely Empking-scum would not have disclosed his plans to fake-claim Miller.

Thus, were CC scum, Empking would not be scum.

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

Hold up, you know that Emp is a miller?

If you actually believed this was a point, you'd be unvoting Empking.


Ninja'd by PBug vote and unvote.

Had a vote in originally, but I suppose there's no harm in leaving my vote off for the moment.

CLAIM, TORO

[Hoppster]

And now using point

b

together with point

c

, we can logically conclude that if Empking is not a Miller, he must be scum.

How? Well, if he's not a Miller, that means he's not being truthful. But we know that townies are truthful. Therefore he is not a townie. Therefore he is scum.

That was easy, wasn't it?

You really needed a spoilered wall post with logical truth table analysis to provide us with this? When exactly start believing that Toro was scum? From my perspective you and him have been dancing around each other all day with respect to your reads on each other.

Somebody hasn't been reading my posts.

You're suspicious of me as well, which means you've theoretically been (or perhaps should have been) through my ISO as well.

FoS: xvart

Vig yourself tonight.

I agree.

Actually, take out a lurker of your choice.

I kinda agree, but not to the same extent as above.

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

Elfen, do you think Toro is the best lynch given that 1) he might just be a PR, 2) if he's Mafia then he can't produce 2 kills, and 3) if he's not town-aligned he'll still want to appear so by striking out in an anti-town direction??

I'm not completely sure that 2 is standard with all mods.

@ Mod: If there were any Mafia PRs in this game, would they be able to carry out both the NK and their own action?

Also, if there were any SKs in this game, would they have a compulsive night-kill?

4. Deadlines and Activity

i) You will be automatically replaced if you receive 3 prods, or 2 prods in the same game day.

^ Is this rule still in effect? Because if so, 1joe60 needs replacing.

Elf being an idiot is a null-tell. Though Panzer, he does seem a bit more VIish than last game, doesn't he?
Anyway, Sundy, you're forgetting that Toto may be scum and that we have a SK as well.
The fact that Elf didn't know the Town Win-Con is highly scummy. I wouldn't put it past him not to entirely read the Role PM though.
So are we sparing Toto?

Whut.

At no point does Elfen say or suggest that he doesn't know the Town Win-Con.

You're also trying very hard to attack Elfen at a time when he is an easy target, but also say that he is null.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SleepyKrew

[Hoppster]

Its not the case that lurkers can be replaced. Flakes can be replaced but not lurkers.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

What are your thoughts on SleepyKrew?

[Hoppster]

Its not the case that lurkers can be replaced. Flakes can be replaced but not lurkers.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

But whae if scum has a roleblocker?

I miss your point.

I don't trust Toro to choose his own target, even if he is town.


Happy with self-vig or directed shot.

Somebody hasn't been reading my posts.

You're suspicious of me as well, which means you've theoretically been (or perhaps should have been) through my ISO as well.

FoS: xvart

And you point is what?

[1] You've been dancing around Toro all day

and then

[2] you bust out this big post that goes into excessive details that essentially breakdowns to common sense and launch onto the wagon

. It really seems to like over justifying joining. If Toro is scum you definitely are. However, you are also scum independent of his scum level due to the

[1]dancing and unable to take a stand on the wagon

. Even if Toro is not mafia aligned your behavior can be seen as

[3] someone weighing in on the wagon with soft support while questioning it along the way;

then launching onto it when it seems too good to be true.

What don't you understand about 'you haven't been reading my posts'?

For town, that's a pretty clear signal that you need to read my posts and stop being such an idiot.

The fact that you still haven't been reading my posts but are still fine with pushing me as a lynch is just... astonishing, paticularly when your points are all rendered moot if you stop ignoring my posts.

I've taken the liberty of labelling which of my posts exactly are relevant to which parts.

Spoiler: Wall of Relevant Posts. May be deja-vu for anybody who's actually been reading my posts.

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

... Come again?

Of course

there's a chance he's town (and therefore a Miller), that's the situation WITH EVERYBODY.

Please... with this logic, you should never ever make a vote apart from a select few scenarios when somebody is confirmed scum.

Hoppster

- First post of his (which includes a CC vote) appears serious, kind of appears as if he's jumping the gun here. (Scum)
- #26: Calls out Sleepy for over-eagerly rushing onto a wagon. Contradiction. Hopp overeagerly started a wagon and pushed for it in RVS. (Scum)

JUDGMENT: Lack of posts doesn't set anything in stone for me yet, but he's leaning scum.

What? How is a serious vote in RVS scummy?

I am also not contradicting myself in

any shape or form

.

Even if I was overeagerly starting a wagon (and I firmly believe I was not), my overeagerness in starting a wagon and Sleepy rushing overeagerly onto a wagon are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not even being hypocritical, if that's what you're driving at. Starting a wagon and rushing onto a wagon are

very different things

.

My wagon was justified, anyhow. Or are you saying this is not the case?

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

In fact, here's another lovely quote illustrating this:

Because here's the thing, it's not certain that Empking is a miller or not. I don't want to keep my vote on him throughout the whole day phase and potentially mislynch a townie.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

You have 2 points on Thomith - Null and Null-Scum.

You have 2 Scum points on myself. You have 3 on SleepyKrew.

And yet you vote for Thomith?!

Empking

- Claims miller right off the bat, you all know how I feel about this. (Null)

Yep, that's right, I know you think it's... null? That's not how it looked earlier...

IGMEOY: Empking

^ Ie. MILLER CLAIM TOTALLY NOT NULL

FoS: Toro

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ See this, Empking?

Don't ignore it please.

(Takes into account even the 'Godfather claim'. I'm pretty sure I have read games in which somebody put themselves forward for investigation and the Godfather claim issue was likewise brought up, but the person was town, and I don't think I've actually read any games where a Godfather does it.)

Almost done with my post.

FML.

Going to sleep on this as Empking is making me seriously doubt my Toro read.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

Oh shit, missed this.

At that moment in time I felt that Thomith was a bigger threat, I didn't have as many points on him as most of his posts were the same thing and I felt he was scum trying to appear active. Empking's play I was going to evaluate some more through time and then make a judgment.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

My apologies for that last post, my computer screwed it up.

I don't see anything relevant really, do you? (Not being sarcastic I'm just wondering.)

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

Do you know for sure that Empking is Miller? No.

Do I? No. Although as I've said before I'm certain he's not.

Okay.

Let me explain to you why that is scum-logic.

Your reasoning for not voting Empking earlier seems to have been (as I did think it was, but I wanted to clarify) that there remained a possibility that he was actually a Miller.

That completely fails to take into account basic town logic, which I will now explain in the spoiler in a wholly intentionally patronising manner.

<snip'd. No spoilers within spoilers.>

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

Hold up, you know that Emp is a miller?

If you actually believed this was a point, you'd be unvoting Empking.


Ninja'd by PBug vote and unvote.

Had a vote in originally, but I suppose there's no harm in leaving my vote off for the moment.

CLAIM, TORO

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

I think I've seen one mafia vig and it was a large them (I think). I highly doubt there is a mafia one shot vig in a mini normal all things considered. And the directing a vig kill to a single person is highly scummy due to the influence scum have in the night actions.

The only thing that could even be construed as justified suspicion here would be if you believe that I am scum and my faction has a Redirector or Bus Driver, with both being explicity non-Normal.

Or perhaps if I have full setup knowledge and know every single person's role.

You're also very convieniently overlooking anybody who's not me who was also trying to direct the vig-shot.

Stop being such an idiot if you're town, bus SleepyKrew if you're scum.

Fine, we let Toto live.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: jake
I'll just put that there while I read up on Hop.

More votes on this doubly-opportunistic scum please.

Toro can vig jakesh, I'd be down with that.

[Hoppster]

Okay, so I've seen you hopping on and off Toto, and voting me with terribad logic.
Also, how is that "doubly-opportunistic"?

HEY I'M-A GONNA HOP ON LARGE FORMING WAGON BUT ALSO LEAVE MYSELF ROOM TO JUMP ON A HOPPSTER WAGON IF IT GETS SUPPORT

Explain how my reason for voting you was bad.

when you don't try and explain how I am misinformed or explain your behavior and instead just post your ISO is scummy. On the other hand, you labeling all your posts with their scummy behavior is helpful.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you. You're not - you're attitude is clearly "well I don't need to bother trying because he didn't explain", which is either a terrible-town attitude or a scum attitude.

You're obviously not even trying to read what I'm helpfully laying out for you. You're basically just trying to smear me now and you're not even trying to scum-hunt.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

This is pretty interesting in the fact that you are using the scum knowledge tell (scum know who is not scum) only you are using it backwards. You are asking how Toro knows that Thomith is scum; so unless

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

this isn't even a tell. It's backwards; and if you think he is bussing you should have been voting either of them; but at the time of this post you are voting SleepyKrew while only FoSing Toro.

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

I'm not somebody who changes his vote every time he sees what he thinks is a scum-tell, because that would be stupid. You're dropping loads, but SleepyKrew has been taking priority because he is more obvious scum. In this case, I thought it was a scum-tell and thusly pressed (yes, I'm not an idiot, I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well), but believed SleepyKrew was still likelier scum taking everything into account.

These points, and the earlier point about "Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this" warrant a

Hoppster+7

, contigent (upwards or downwards) on how he explains his apparent shifting of position on Toro.

Spoiler: Context for Wall of Relevant Posts

And you point is what?

[1] You've been dancing around Toro all day

and then

[2] you bust out this big post that goes into excessive details that essentially breakdowns to common sense and launch onto the wagon

. It really seems to like over justifying joining. If Toro is scum you definitely are. However, you are also scum independent of his scum level due to the

[1]dancing and unable to take a stand on the wagon

. Even if Toro is not mafia aligned your behavior can be seen as

[3] someone weighing in on the wagon with soft support while questioning it along the way;

then launching onto it when it seems too good to be true.

Spoiler: Wall of Relevant Posts, annotated in blue

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

... Come again?

Of course

there's a chance he's town (and therefore a Miller), that's the situation WITH EVERYBODY.

Please... with this logic, you should never ever make a vote apart from a select few scenarios when somebody is confirmed scum.

Hoppster

- First post of his (which includes a CC vote) appears serious, kind of appears as if he's jumping the gun here. (Scum)
- #26: Calls out Sleepy for over-eagerly rushing onto a wagon. Contradiction. Hopp overeagerly started a wagon and pushed for it in RVS. (Scum)

JUDGMENT: Lack of posts doesn't set anything in stone for me yet, but he's leaning scum.

What? How is a serious vote in RVS scummy?

I am also not contradicting myself in

any shape or form

.

Even if I was overeagerly starting a wagon (and I firmly believe I was not), my overeagerness in starting a wagon and Sleepy rushing overeagerly onto a wagon are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not even being hypocritical, if that's what you're driving at. Starting a wagon and rushing onto a wagon are

very different things

.

My wagon was justified, anyhow. Or are you saying this is not the case?

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

In fact, here's another lovely quote illustrating this:

Because here's the thing, it's not certain that Empking is a miller or not. I don't want to keep my vote on him throughout the whole day phase and potentially mislynch a townie.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

You have 2 points on Thomith - Null and Null-Scum.

You have 2 Scum points on myself. You have 3 on SleepyKrew.

And yet you vote for Thomith?!

Empking

- Claims miller right off the bat, you all know how I feel about this. (Null)

Yep, that's right, I know you think it's... null? That's not how it looked earlier...

IGMEOY: Empking

^ Ie. MILLER CLAIM TOTALLY NOT NULL

FoS: Toro

^ This is relevant to [1] because I am making my suspicion of Toro very, very clear - I'm not 'dancing' around him at all and to say that is just stupid.

It is slightly relevant to [2] because it's when I first began to think that Toro might just be an idiot (expanded on later).

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ This is relevant to [1] because I am, again, making my Toro read very, very clear. Yes, it's changed, but changing your mind is not a scum-tell.

This is relevant to [2] because the post I began typing up contained the spoiler that xvart says is containing only excessive details and common sense. Well, that's the point of it, stupid. I was trying to show Toro-town why he was wrong (yet also at the same time justifying my town-read of Toro), but as I finalised the post I began to doubt myself, as for Toro-town to essentially do what I was saying he was doing... well, he would have to be quite stupid indeed.

It is relevant to [3] because I am not supporting the wagon. To say so is idiotic.

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ See this, Empking?

Don't ignore it please.

(Takes into account even the 'Godfather claim'. I'm pretty sure I have read games in which somebody put themselves forward for investigation and the Godfather claim issue was likewise brought up, but the person was town, and I don't think I've actually read any games where a Godfather does it.)

Almost done with my post.

^ See my reasoning for last post, except on a greater scale because I am repeating myself (and enlarging font size) for emphasis.

FML.

Going to sleep on this as Empking is making me seriously doubt my Toro read.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

^ This is relevant to [1] because it's quite clearly the defining point at which I begin to come around to Toro-scum.

It is very, very relevant to [2] (although I only just realised that), because I am trying to understand Toro further, to ensure that I have made the correct judgement about / interpretation of his posts.

It's relevant to [3] because, again, I am not supporting the wagon, I'm just following a line of questioning. Admittedly I am potentially setting up for a move onto the wagon (in fact, I was in a way), however it is clearly pending results of questioning.

I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town

^ This is relevant to [1] because I'm not 'dancing' at all; I'm not afraid to say what my Toro read was.

Kinda relevant to [3] because this post is not in any shape or form supporting the Toro wagon.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

Oh shit, missed this.

At that moment in time I felt that Thomith was a bigger threat, I didn't have as many points on him as most of his posts were the same thing and I felt he was scum trying to appear active. Empking's play I was going to evaluate some more through time and then make a judgment.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

^ Same as before (2 quotes above), really.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

My apologies for that last post, my computer screwed it up.

I don't see anything relevant really, do you? (Not being sarcastic I'm just wondering.)

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

^ This is relevant to [1] because I am using the questioning to further my Toro read.

It is relevant to [2] because it is confirming what is later posted in the spoilers (proving my initial interpretation correct).

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

Do you know for sure that Empking is Miller? No.

Do I? No. Although as I've said before I'm certain he's not.

Okay.

Let me explain to you why that is scum-logic.

Your reasoning for not voting Empking earlier seems to have been (as I did think it was, but I wanted to clarify) that there remained a possibility that he was actually a Miller.

That completely fails to take into account basic town logic, which I will now explain in the spoiler in a wholly intentionally patronising manner.

<snip'd. No spoilers within spoilers.>

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

Hold up, you know that Emp is a miller?

If you actually believed this was a point, you'd be unvoting Empking.


Ninja'd by PBug vote and unvote.

Had a vote in originally, but I suppose there's no harm in leaving my vote off for the moment.

CLAIM, TORO

^ This is relevant to [1], as I have a very clear stance.

This is relevant to [2], because as seen above, the spoiler was confirmed and my scum-read reinforced by my questioning of Toro.

It is relevant to [3] because it is at this point I lend support to the wagon. I don't lend support at any other points.

So, xvart, your points against me can only be justified if you explain the below:

1. Why is changing my mind scummy?
   
2. Why is feeling the need to explore my reads scummy?
   
3. Your third point is simply just wrong in all respects.

Finally, what do you mean by "for town." That sounds pretty definitively that you know I am town.

Is English your first language? I was going to make a derogatory remark here, but realised that would be rash of me considering you may very well speak Albanian as your first language.

If English is your first language, you're reaaaally stretching here and I assume that native English speakers on this site (probably at least of average intelligence if not above-average) will see this.

The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

Either way, Hoppster is scum. And

if he flips scum then panzer has a very high likelihood of being scum with him.

Explain why you think this [the bolded text].

I don't get how you are pairing me and hoppster but that's fine.

You don't understand, but it's "fine" and you're not going to ask for reasoning?

Hoppster+7

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hopitty
Get it? I vote-hopped
Toto can kill jakesh.

Prediction: Accurate

Very, very keen to lynch either SleepyKrew or xvart today. Both are very, very likely scum. xvart is my slight personal preference, but I suppose in trying to detach my personal feelings from the game, SleepyKrew is probably the more likely to be scum. I'd be very, very happy to lynch either of them though.


Before I forget: in the horribly tragic event that I flip before xvart flips, you should bear this in mind:

Either way, Hoppster is scum. And

if he flips scum then panzer has a very high likelihood of being scum with him.

^ That looks awful like scum distancing to me (from my perspective of myself being town), as it's a convenient way for xvart to attack panzer and then retract all suspicion with the click of a finger.

[Hoppster]

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you. You're not - you're attitude is clearly "well I don't need to bother trying because he didn't explain", which is either a terrible-town attitude or a scum attitude.

You're obviously not even trying to read what I'm helpfully laying out for you. You're basically just trying to smear me now and you're not even trying to scum-hunt.

This is laughable since you are accusing me of "not trying" and while you do the absolute bare minimum to try and disprove my suspicions.

You're not reading my posts.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

This is pretty interesting in the fact that you are using the scum knowledge tell (scum know who is not scum) only you are using it backwards. You are asking how Toro knows that Thomith is scum; so unless

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

this isn't even a tell. It's backwards; and if you think he is bussing you should have been voting either of them; but at the time of this post you are voting SleepyKrew while only FoSing Toro.

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

You didn't explicity say you think Toro is bussing Thomith; but that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from your statement "are you saying there is no chance that Thomith is town." You are asking Toro how he knows that Thomith is scum with the implication that he has inside information. The only way he would

know

that Thomith is scum is if he is a daycop or they are scum buddies together. Since the first isn't true they would have to be scum buddies together.

I'm not somebody who changes his vote every time he sees what he thinks is a scum-tell, because that would be stupid. You're dropping loads, but SleepyKrew has been taking priority because he is more obvious scum. In this case, I thought it was a scum-tell and thusly pressed (yes, I'm not an idiot,

I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well

), but believed SleepyKrew was still likelier scum taking everything into account.

And what's up with the bolded portion of this quote (which directly follows the previous one)? You try and admonish my argument that you didn't say they were scum together but then you admit that you knew that would be the case.

You're not reading my posts.

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

Finally, what do you mean by "for town." That sounds pretty definitively that you know I am town.

Is English your first language? I was going to make a derogatory remark here, but realised that would be rash of me considering you may very well speak Albanian as your first language.

If English is your first language, you're reaaaally stretching here and I assume that native English speakers on this site (probably at least of average intelligence if not above-average) will see this.

The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

So what you are saying is anyone with above average intelligence will realize that when you said "for town" you meant "for scum or stupid-town"? That completely undermines your entire ad hominem because what you actually said and what you say you were implying do not align at all. When you said "for town" (referring to me) you were saying "for someone who is town" which looks explicitly like you know I am town. This is the inside information scumtell you incorrectly used earlier.

You're still not reading my posts.

I'm saying that you're either stupid (or possibly ESL) for thinking that actually was a scum-tell, or you're scum because you're stretching so much.

Let me explain the "for town" a bit more... umm, appropiately.

Spoiler: for town

For town, that's a pretty clear signal that you need to read my posts and stop being such an idiot.

"For town" - the following only applies if you are town (fairly interchangeable with "if you're town")

This seems to be the main thing you're struggling to understand. Imagine an old man saying "For me, playing chess is fun!"

He's not saying playing chess is fun for everybody. He's saying it's fun for him. In other words, it only applies if you are him.

Or a TV advert with Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen saying "For us, L'Oreal is the only hair product we will use!"

They're not saying it's the only hair product that anybody uses, it means that it's the only hair product that they specifically will use. It only applies if you are them. (And then the wannabes out there who want to be just like them will then strive to use only L'Oreal.)

Now imagine an advert starring Homer Simpson, advertising a new DVD boxset. He says "For all true Simpsons fans, there's no superior Christmas present!"

He's not saying it's the best Christmas present for everybody - it only applies to Simpsons fans. (And if you know somebody who is a Simpsons fan, the clear suggestion is that you should buy them this DVD boxset.)

Finally, pretend we have Madonna advertising a new CD, and she says "For all true music fans, missing out on this would be stupid!"

She's not saying that if you don't buy her CD you're stupid. She is saying if you're a true music fan and you don't buy her CD, you're stupid. Not buying her CD would mean you're either not a true music fan, or you are a true music fan but you're stupid. Thus all the people who do regard themselves as true music fans will feel pressured into buying the CD, because to not would either mean they are not a true music fan or that they are stupid.


"you need to read my posts" - you need to read my posts

"stop being such an idiot" - you need to stop being such an idiot.


I am strongly implying that you not reading my posts is directly related to you being an idiot.

However, with "For town" added, it becomes "For town, not reading my posts is directly related to being an idiot".

And that's obvious.

Why would any logical-thinking town not read my posts and then attack me for issues I addressed in my posts?

You'd have to be idiot-town for that to apply.

Even without the idiot part, I am still (less obviously) implying you're an idiot. If I said "Town should be reading my posts", I am saying that, if you're town, not reading my posts is DOING IT WRONG.

You can also logically infer from the underlined statement that I am also saying you not reading my posts is scummy. You're not logical-thinking town, but that doesn't mean you're idiot-town necessarily. The other obvious suggestion is that you are not logical-town, because in fact you're not town at all, you're scum.

In fact, I already explained that but of course you didn't read it:

The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

1. Why is changing my mind scummy?
   
2. Why is feeling the need to explore my reads scummy?
   
3. Your third point is simply just wrong in all respects.

1. Changing your mind is not a scumtell; but the degree of your changing read and the pomp and circumstance behind the changes is a scumtell.
   
2. I don't really understand your second point or what you are asking me to respond to, but that could just be because of my poor English comprehension and my failure of basic communication skills; however, if you are asking why it is scummy for you to explore your own reads the answer is simple: there is nothing scummy with someone exploring their own reads.
   (i) It is scummy the manner in which you have done so and the effort it took for you to actually say what you were trying to say.
   (ii) It looks very strongly like you plopped down a long post of quotes with no explanation at all hoping I would back off just because it was a long post and long posts are always well thought out
   (although it did work on your buddy Panzer since he hasn't been able to articulate anything surrounding his unvote/vote and what he actually saw).

1. Your response to this relates to #2(i).

2(i). What is scummy about not posting "I JUST REALISED TORO IS SCUM" when the thought occurs to you and instead questioning him to strengthen your read (which is to do with the effort I put into it which I don't understand how it is a scum-tell in the slightest)?

2(ii). This relates to the first quote in this post which you didn't read.

WHY THE HELL IS EVERYBODY IGNORING SLEEPYKREW

Hoppster: I found xvart more persuasive.

whaaaaaattttt

Number 378: Requests self-vig from someone who would prove they are telling the truth by performing this vig
Number 386: Says that Elfen replacement cannot change what Elfen did, even though earlier he said that there is no real evidence either way on Elfen
Number 395: Votes xvart saying, "did not even notice all that." notice what!? Hoppster made a long defensive post that basically reiterated what he already posted, so what new is there to gain? Called out on this by SK and Xvart, gives weak defense
Number 447: FOS on Hiplop with some weird views on meta & sample sizes

TO SUM UP

: did anyone really follow his train of thought with the votes on Xvart, CC, and now Hiplop??

You've got some good points here, so I suppose I would be kiiiiiinda receptive to a panzer wagon, but really, SleepyKrew and/or xvart are much better.

hip, we have two games together? What was the other one besides Nowhereville? Also, trying to meta me gives me the laffs.
Content with vote on Hop for now.

Seriously, people need to read SleepyKrew's ISO, look at how he hasn't justified (or fail-justifies) his votes, and then vote him.

[Hoppster]

Please do not skip over the whole of this wall: important tl;dr at foot of post.

This is laughable since you are accusing me of "not trying" and while you do the absolute bare minimum to try and disprove my suspicions.

You're not reading my posts.

Again, you have not explain how I am not reading your posts or why you believe I am not reading your posts.

Spoiler: What I said earlier (with addition of idiot-friendly annotations in blue)

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you. You're not - you're attitude is clearly "well I don't need to bother trying because he didn't explain", which is either a terrible-town attitude or a scum attitude.

You're obviously not even trying to read what I'm helpfully laying out for you. You're basically just trying to smear me now and you're not even trying to scum-hunt.

This is laughable since you are accusing me of "not trying" and while you do the absolute bare minimum to try and disprove my suspicions.

You're not reading my posts.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you.

This quote, in context, is quite obviously the bit I have isolated which you have missed, misunderstood, or just pretended did not exist.

You are accusing me of doing the bare minimum to try and disprove your suspicions. However, this point was already addressed, in the isolated sentence I included. Your point is wrong, because I was, as I said earlier, "trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you".

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

This is pretty interesting in the fact that you are using the scum knowledge tell (scum know who is not scum) only you are using it backwards. You are asking how Toro knows that Thomith is scum; so unless

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

this isn't even a tell. It's backwards; and if you think he is bussing you should have been voting either of them; but at the time of this post you are voting SleepyKrew while only FoSing Toro.

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

You didn't explicity say you think Toro is bussing Thomith; but that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from your statement "are you saying there is no chance that Thomith is town." You are asking Toro how he knows that Thomith is scum with the implication that he has inside information. The only way he would

know

that Thomith is scum is if he is a daycop or they are scum buddies together. Since the first isn't true they would have to be scum buddies together.

I'm not somebody who changes his vote every time he sees what he thinks is a scum-tell, because that would be stupid. You're dropping loads, but SleepyKrew has been taking priority because he is more obvious scum. In this case, I thought it was a scum-tell and thusly pressed (yes, I'm not an idiot,

I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well

), but believed SleepyKrew was still likelier scum taking everything into account.

And what's up with the bolded portion of this quote (which directly follows the previous one)? You try and admonish my argument that you didn't say they were scum together but then you admit that you knew that would be the case.

You're not reading my posts.

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

This quote, in context, is quite obviously the bit I have isolated which you have missed, misunderstood, or just pretended did not exist.

You are accusing me of contradicting myself by saying that Toro wasn't bussing Thomith but they were scum together, or something stupid like that. However, this point is wrong, because as I clearly said earlier, I did NOT rule out Toro bussing Thomith. "Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No." "... yes, I'm not an idiot, I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well".

If you were meaning to say "for someone who is likely town" or "someone who might be town" you should have said that because what you said definitively identifies me as town. It's what we call a scumslip since only scum would know definitively that I am town. Furthermore, the fact that you attempted to use examples and logic (incorrectly) further identifies you as scum because you attempting to undermine me (and my methods) and not defending or excusing the behavior. "town" =/= "scum or idiot" in any language, ESL or otherwise. The biggest problem you have with this whole issue is that you can't use the excuse "I was typing too fast and meant 'for someone who is likely town' or 'for someone who might be town'" because you have backed yourself into a corner and neither of those excuses would hold any weight given your expressed suspicion of me.

I'm not defending my behaviour, because I have nothing to defend. I am right. You are wrong.

I was trying to use examples and logic to show how I am right and your case is complete idotic crap.

Your examples hold no weight. The point in contention is the proper noun (Homer Simpson, Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen, or me as the case may be); not what they are saying that follows. In each of your examples, it cannot be argued that when you said "For Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen" you meant for "two people

other than

Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen" just like you can't argue that when you said "For town" (for someone who is town) you meant "For someone who is either scum or an idiot." Everything that follows is irrelevant to the argument (whether it be preferred make up, Christmas presents, or enjoyment of chess).

ASKFJGOEJGSLKL

THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM ARGUING AT ALL

THAT IS WHAT I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT ARGUING IN THE SLIGHTEST

READ WHAT I'M POSTING

IT IS ENTIRELY RELEVANT TO READ PAST THE "FOR X" PART

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT I AM MAKING

Spoiler: Again, what I said earlier (blue annotations aren't quite so idiot-friendly, as I'm honestly struggling to think of a way to make it any more obvious how wrong you are than I already did, but you obviously just glossed over it)

"For town" - the following only applies if you are town (fairly interchangeable with "if you're town")

This seems to be the main thing you're struggling to understand. Imagine an old man saying "For me, playing chess is fun!"

He's not saying playing chess is fun for everybody. He's saying it's fun for him. In other words, it only applies if you are him.

OF COURSE I DON'T MEAN "FOR ME" = "FOR ANYBODY APART FROM ME"

THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY STUPID

YET SOMEHOW THAT'S HOW YOU'RE INTERPRETING IT

IT BOGGLES ME

BOGGLES ME

WHAT FOLLOWS THE "FOR ME" IS ENTIRELY, ENTIRELY RELEVANT AND YOU ARE BEING AN IDIOT BY IGNORING IT

HE IS SAYING THAT HE FINDS CHESS FUN

HE IS NOT SAYING THAT EVERYBODY FINDS CHESS FUN

I AM ARGUING THE ABOVE TWO SENTENCES

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT HE IS SAYING "EVERYBODY BUT ME FINDS CHESS FUN"

Or a TV advert with Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen saying "For us, L'Oreal is the only hair product we will use!"

They're not saying it's the only hair product that anybody uses, it means that it's the only hair product that they specifically will use. It only applies if you are them. (And then the wannabes out there who want to be just like them will then strive to use only L'Oreal.)

OF COURSE I DON'T MEAN "FOR US" = "FOR ANYBODY APART FROM US"

THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY STUPID

YET SOMEHOW THAT'S HOW YOU'RE INTERPRETING IT

IT BOGGLES ME

BOGGLES ME

WHAT FOLLOWS THE "FOR US" IS ENTIRELY, ENTIRELY RELEVANT AND YOU ARE BEING AN IDIOT BY IGNORING IT

THEY ARE SAYING THEY USE L'OREAL

THEY ARE NOT SAYING EVERYBODY USES L'OREAL

I AM ARGUING THE ABOVE TWO SENTENCES

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT THEY ARE SAYING "EVERYBODY BUT US USES L'OREAL"

Now imagine an advert starring Homer Simpson, advertising a new DVD boxset. He says "For all true Simpsons fans, there's no superior Christmas present!"

He's not saying it's the best Christmas present for everybody - it only applies to Simpsons fans. (And if you know somebody who is a Simpsons fan, the clear suggestion is that you should buy them this DVD boxset.)

OF COURSE I DON'T MEAN "FOR ALL TRUE SIMPSONS FANS" = "FOR ANYBODY APART FROM ALL TRUE SIMPSONS FANS"

THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY STUPID

YET SOMEHOW THAT'S HOW YOU'RE INTERPRETING IT

IT BOGGLES ME

BOGGLES ME

WHAT FOLLOWS THE "FOR ALL TRUE SIMPSONS FANS" IS ENTIRELY, ENTIRELY RELEVANT AND YOU ARE BEING AN IDIOT BY IGNORING IT

HE IS SAYING THAT THERE IS NO BETTER CHRISTMAS PRESENT FOR ALL TRUE SIMPSONS FANS

HE IS NOT SAYING THAT THERE IS NO BETTER CHRISTMAS PRESENT FOR ANYBODY

I AM ARGUING THE ABOVE TWO SENTENCES

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT HE IS SAYING "FOR EVERYBODY APART FROM ALL TRUE SIMPSONS FANS THERE IS NO BETTER CHRISTMAS PRESENT"

Finally, pretend we have Madonna advertising a new CD, and she says "For all true music fans, missing out on this would be stupid!"

She's not saying that if you don't buy her CD you're stupid. She is saying if you're a true music fan and you don't buy her CD, you're stupid. Not buying her CD would mean you're either not a true music fan, or you are a true music fan but you're stupid. Thus all the people who do regard themselves as true music fans will feel pressured into buying the CD, because to not would either mean they are not a true music fan or that they are stupid.

OF COURSE I DON'T MEAN "FOR ALL TRUE MUSIC FANS" = "FOR ANYBODY APART FROM TRUE MUSIC FANS"

THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY STUPID

YET SOMEHOW THAT'S HOW YOU'RE INTERPRETING IT

IT BOGGLES ME

BOGGLES ME

WHAT FOLLOWS THE "FOR ALL TRUE MUSIC FANS" IS ENTIRELY, ENTIRELY RELEVANT AND YOU ARE BEING AN IDIOT BY IGNORING IT

SHE IS SAYING YOU'D BE STUPID NOT TO BUY THE CD IF YOU'RE A TRUE MUSIC FAN

SHE IS NOT SAYING THAT EVERYBODY WOULD BE STUPID TO NOT BUY THE CD

I AM ARGUING THE ABOVE TWO SENTENCES

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT SHE IS SAYING "EVERYBODY APART FROM TRUE MUSIC FANS WOULD BE STUPID NOT TO BUY THE CD"

IF YOU DON'T BUY THE CD THERE ARE TWO POSSIBILITIES

1. YOU ARE NOT A TRUE MUSIC FAN
2. YOU ARE A TRUE MUSIC FAN, BUT A STUPID ONE

THAT'S WHAT I'M ARGUING

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT

Scum motivated behaviors you have exhibited:

1. Changing reads that coincide with wagon momentum;
   
2. Attacking the attacker and not the attack;
   
3. Justifying actions after the fact with information not available and unprovable;
   
4. Knowing someone's town alignment;
   
5. Directing a possible vig kill to a single individual; and,
   
6. Mismatched suspicions and voting (debatable).

1. Okay, that's fair enough, but it is just a coincedence and nothing more.
2. I have admittedly been calling you an idiot repeatedly, but this is in tandem with argumets, not instead of.
3. What? How is that scum-motivated? Are you saying this couldn't happen to town? I hope this comes back to bite you on the ass as town one day.
4. No, you just can't read (or understand my arguments) properly.
5. So what? How is that scummy?
6. Debatable, fine. You admit yourself this isn't a 'solid' point so I won't bother defending (it'd just be "no it wasn't").

Directing a vig kill is highly scummy because it is very easily manipulated by scum night actions

I ANSWERED THIS

AND YOU OBVIOUSLY AGAIN DID NOT READ IT

I AM ANGRY AND SUPRISED FOR SOME STUPID REASON WHEN REALLY I SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED YOU NOT TO READ IT

Spoiler: What I said earlier, pre-emptive annotations added in blue

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

I think I've seen one mafia vig and it was a large them (I think). I highly doubt there is a mafia one shot vig in a mini normal all things considered. And the directing a vig kill to a single person is highly scummy due to the influence scum have in the night actions.

The only thing that could even be construed as justified suspicion here would be if you believe that I am scum and my faction has a Redirector or Bus Driver, with both being explicity non-Normal.

Or perhaps if I have full setup knowledge and know every single person's role.

A hypothetical scum roleblocker DOES NOT mean directing the vig shot is scummy, AS THEY CAN ROLEBLOCK REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE SHOT IS DIRECTED OR NOT

AND THEN I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ELSE YOU COULD POSSIBLY THINK IS SCUMMY

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hoppster: an example of why xvart is more convincing: You padded your post with a million examples like Madonna and The Simpsons, but you kind of missed the point. You didn't say "if you're town, you'll feel blah blah blah," you said "for town, you'll feel blah blah blah." The lack of an If is key, and I think it's telling you inserted If into your defense, and said it was interchangeable when it is not.

YOU'RE NOT READING IT PROPERLY

AAARGH

READ IT

THAT PART IS NOT AN IMPORTANT PART, BUT IF YOU PRETEND IT DOESN'T EXIST AND THEN READ THE REST AND COME BACK AND READ IT AGAIN THEN IT SHOULD BE REALLLLLLLY OBVIOUS

unvote, vote: Hoppster

Ohhhhh come on.

What the hell is it that xvart has going for him?

It must be his personality, because it's damn sure not his arguments, and both my username and avatar are superior to his.

I have been keeping a few notes on people

Lynch All Liars
But I still think Hop is scum. What to do?

WHY IS THIS GUY STILL ALIVE

Spoiler: tl;dr for everybody not reading the wall-war

xvart doesn't read my posts where I already answer what he's saying. (See here.)

xvart is pushing a scum-slip which is not a scum-slip. (See here, same post as link above. It's in the spoiler.)

If you're not reading the walls, you DEFINITELY need to read my spoilered response to his supposed scum-slip, because despite my answer being incredibly comprehensive and idiot-friendly he continues to push the issue.

[Hoppster]

Please note: this is an xvart-free post. If you wish to skip the xvart-Hoppster walls,

don't skip this post

, because it's not an xvart-Hoppster wall. My next post will have responses to xvart.

WHY IS SLEEPYKREW NOT BEING VOTED BY ANYBODY

(myself and Toro aside)


Look at his ISO. Look at his voting record. Look how he frequently hops onto forming wagons generally going with the momentum. Look at how he either does not justify or fail-justifies his votes.

Can you concisely state why SK is scum using analysis and evidence? Or anyone else that we should vote besides yourself?

Seriously, people need to read SleepyKrew's ISO, look at how he hasn't justified (or fail-justifies) his votes, and then vote him.

Or alternatively see my slightly different phrasing just above.

If you look at Hoppster and his stance on PJ, you will say that he rules out a PJ lynch at first, and later says he is more open to the possibility. What do you think of that????

*headdesk*

You made a good case (with good points), I agreed with it (implicitly retracting my previous town-read).

Hoppster: Vote Hiplop if you want to live.

BUT SLEEPYKREW IS SUCH OBVIOUS SCUM

IT HURTS TO VOTE ELSEWHERE

Willing to settle for Hiplop at deadline, but REAAALLLY SleepyKrew is a MUUUCH better lynch.

EVERYBODY PLZ VOTE SLEEPYKREW KTHX

[Hoppster]

The below post

is

an xvart wall.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you.

As I have explained, this isn't a sufficient response for me

because

in your original long string of posts when no commentary you labeled it all according to what I was accusing you of. If anything, this should have been proof that I did read what you were saying since everything I was accusing you of was labeled in each of your posts. It took you a while later to actually provide a rebuttal of why my interpretation was wrong.

I didn't label it according to what you were accusing me of, I was labelling my posts as to what

dealt

with your points. Admittedly in hindsight some of them are a bit unrealistic of me to expect you to have got, but there are certainly some that, paticularly given my labelling, you should have been able to identify what I was showing.

IT IS ENTIRELY RELEVANT TO READ PAST THE "FOR X" PART

No, everything after the "for town" part is irrelevant because that is the only part I was originally arguing: the knowledge of someone's alignment that only scum would know. The behavior afterwards is inconsequential because you identified me as someone who was definitively town in the first two words of your post.

asdfkgjskdsds

You didn't even read my post, did you?

I am completely lost as to how to explain this now, because I have made it simple, step-by-step, given relevant examples, and you still miss it.

Given the context of the whole sentence (as shown clearly in my several examples) the "For X" does not mean the sentence is necessarily directed solely at X.

"For X, doing Y would be Z" means that the person(s) being addressed are either:

1. X and Z (as they do Y)
   
2. X but not Z (as they do not do Y)
   
3. Not X (may or may not be Z)

In this example, X is town, Y is not reading my posts yet still attacking me, Z is stupid.

If that doesn't clarify it, you can lynch me based on these stupid, awful semantics that are just completely wrong, because I'm not going to defend myself anymore from it. I've made it perfectly clear, and you're basically saying "NUH-UH".

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

I think I've seen one mafia vig and it was a large them (I think). I highly doubt there is a mafia one shot vig in a mini normal all things considered. And the directing a vig kill to a single person is highly scummy due to the influence scum have in the night actions.

The only thing that could even be construed as justified suspicion here would be if you believe that I am scum and my faction has a Redirector or Bus Driver, with both being explicity non-Normal.

Or perhaps if I have full setup knowledge and know every single person's role.

A hypothetical scum roleblocker DOES NOT mean directing the vig shot is scummy, AS THEY CAN ROLEBLOCK REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE SHOT IS DIRECTED OR NOT

AND THEN I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ELSE YOU COULD POSSIBLY THINK IS SCUMMY

You accuse me of not reading because you have a different interpretation of what you said than what you actually said? Where did you say anything about a roleblocker in your first response? This is another example of you justifying something after the fact with evidence that was not originally stated. What you said originally is completely different than your annotations in blue. The whole point is if there is a RBer they know if the single individual set to be killed is on their team or not. When it is not directed, they do not know if the target is going to be their team or not. Even if they don't have a RBer they can influence the kill during the day to someone who is town and say "welp, at least we got rid of a town lurker." Giving scum advanced knowledge of specific night actions only helps scum and not town because they have more information about night actions to begin with.

Oh. My. Fricking Days.

YOU ARE NOT READING MY POSTS

What I said earlier, pre-emptive annotations added in blue

Given the ridiculous nature of your attacks, I felt that you would bring up the roleblocker as it's the one bit I didn't address beforehand (as I thought it obvious, but eh). Perhaps a poor choice of words in 'annotations' (addendum strikes me as a better alternative in hindsight), but that is it.

The thing is, the whole thing about scum deciding whether to Roleblock Toro is great and all if he is town.

Do we know he is town?

No, we do not.

However, if we are to assume that he is town, then really, there's no issue. As ridiculous an assumption as it is, if we assume he is town and we direct his vig-shot which is resultingly blocked, using not dissimilar logic to yours we can just assume the vig target was scum and lynch it (as it would be counter-productive for scum to roleblock Toro to prevent town Player X from dying only to have that player mislynched the next day).

Giving Toro-scum free reign is ridiculous, as he could perfectly justify an Empking-vig (having been suspicious of him), but really, that would be a stupid vig-shot. I do not trust Toro to choose his target, and even Toro-town could still vig Empking (as the suspicious would be genuine - it may even be more likely this way).

The issue I had imagined you were going to bring up was "well if he gets roleblocked then we won't know whether he's lying or not" or something to that effect.


This post is just complete junk.

Number One I have dealt with several, several times now. Each time you refuse to read what I'm saying. Maybe you're looking at the words, but you certainly aren't reading them.

Number Two is not a scum-tell.

Number Three I have dealt with in this post.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

This goes back to the directing vig kill argument. You are fine with a vig shooting

any lurker

but you want it tied down to a specific lurker for what purpose? Why does it matter which lurker he shoots if you are fine with generalized lurker kill?

We give him the option of two lurkers. If Toro is scum and one of the lurkers is scum, all he has to do is shoot the one who is not scum. I'd much rather not get into WIFOMic situations like that and that is avoided completely by directing the shot.

And who did you consider a lurker at that point in the game?

1joe60, jakesh. To a certain extent, looking at the posts, I actually had (still have? :/) relatively few posts (disregarding people who had replaced in), although I think I have provided substantial content. I was slightly worried Toro would be able to vig me and then be able to justify it the next day as a lurker vig-shot.

[Hoppster]

overaggressive and erratic

This will be my meta, for both scum and town.
I'm a

2 Shot BP Townie

Just to add the full context of your signature:

Don't lynch me for being overaggressive and erratic!

Why did you bring this up?

Personally, I think

[1] the specific nature of the claim (ie '2-shot')

and

[2] the rarity of the role itself

(

[3] I can't recall ever seeing a player aligned with a non-town faction claim Bulletproof Town in a game that does not have an open setup

) makes it unlikely that he's aligned with a non-town faction.

[1] is bordering on WIFOM and is pretty null. Even if it weren't, it could be his actual role - 2-shot bulletproof scum.

[2] is also WIFOMy.

[3] In my Mafia experience, I've only seen one Bulletproof claim of any sort (that I can remember) in [REDACTED - ONGOING]. The player claimed 1-Shot BP, we lynched him, he was scum (1-Shot BP SK).

Oh, i guess im not. Guess i forgot to post that post

Ill hammer at the end of the day (real day)

hiplop, why did you want to leave it until the end of the day - ie. what did you hope to gain from it?

Votecount1.19

Sleepykrew(L-1) - Hoppster, Empking PBuG, Sundy, Panzer, Xvart

@ Mod: Why is Empking listed as second on the wagon when he joined after Xvart?

(ie. fix plz.)

SleepyKrew, who (if any) are scum on your wagon and why?

I'd like an overall list of reads as well please. The list doesn't need explanation, just a list of who is town and who is scum will suffice. Give reasons if you really strongly feel inclined.

@ Sunday: Will you be vig'ing the hammer vote regardless of SleepyKrew flip?

[Hoppster]

DAMNIT NO HIPLOP

I WANTED HIS READS


SleepyKrew, feel free to pretend you're town and post reads.

[Hoppster]

People who ignored me when I was screaming SleepyKrew was scum in big letters - why?

(You know who you are.)

I'd also like everybody's reads on (now deceased) vollkan - from pre-flip, obviously.

Mod: V/LA Friday-Sunday (inclusive). Sorry for lack of notice.

[Hoppster]

Back from V/LA.

People who ignored me when I was screaming SleepyKrew was scum in big letters - why?

(You know who you are.)

Ohai no answers.

Hmmmmmmm.

One more chance, ppz.

When I'm dead, take my scumreads into account.

Uh what.

Town

Xvart - Seems to be genuinely scumhunting.
PBuG - Also, good scumhunting. Getting good vibes from you.
Empking - Weak town read. Just gut for now.

Null

Thomith - I actually need to ISO you, which I haven't done before. Until then you remain null.
Sunday - More posting would be nice.
Hoppster - Again, I would like to ISO you. Null for the moment.
TheFool - Once more, need to ISO.
Panzerjager - I'm a little concerned about you, but that probably just because you were voting me.

Scum

Sundy - You seem to be coasting along nicely without making yourself too obvious. I'll ISO you as well, and put up a better read on you.

Firstly, Xvart.

Ok, looking at PbugISO

Hmm, Emp actually looks pretty town. Although he only mentions PBuG once. Not sure what to think of that.

Sundy now

Hmmmmmmmm.

4 people you said you wanted to ISO.

You ISO'd just one of them, and even then that was the fourth person you ISO'd.

VOTE: CC


Less inclined to believe xvart is scum (well, Mafia at least) with SK's Mafia flip. Were I SK-scum (and buddies with xvart-scum), I would definitely be voting with Hoppster-town's awesome logic rather than xvart-scum's terrible logic.

[Hoppster]

Sundy: Who do you think I am talking to (ie. who do you think is guilty of ignoring me)?

[Hoppster]

TheFool: Why you be ignoring me?


I now understand what people were going through with xvart-Hoppster because I'm feeling oblomovistic (hooray invented words!) about reading the whole xvart-Panzer thing. And these walls are, like, barely even walls. No, they're not walls in any sense. I'm just totally oblomovistic about the whole back and forth between them.

Sundy: Who do you think I am talking to (ie. who do you think is guilty of ignoring me)?

Sunday, Volkan, Thomith, and TheFool?

he means those who thought SK was town despite him screaming about it.

Just FTR, I don't exactly mean that.

People who completely ignored me are the worst offenders.

People like...

Oh, Captain Corporal.

I will re-read and write some notes on people.

I mean, look at this.

He re-read and decided to totally ignore my large font.

I just don't understand.

[Hoppster]

@ Mod: You have super mod powerz for editing. In future, it would be greatly appreciated if you didn't clog the thread with quintuple posts. Remember, with great power comes great responsibility.

More votes please.

I'd rather deal with CC-scum today than try and sort out the mess of whether you or Panzer (or TheFool, but he's mostly an option to me if CC somehow flips town) is scum. You must realize how sketchy you look after day 1. My vote isn't moving anytime soon.

Missed this somehow yesterday.

I agree with this 100%.

Sup, female canines. I'm rereading now and stuff. I'm going to basically reread this whole steaming pile of posts by tomorrow or the next day or something, but in the meanwhile is there anything of interest for me to focus on?

Panzerjager
xvart


@ Panz: Is TheFool scum(my)?


I'm still happy with a CC lynch.

[Hoppster]

@ Panz: Is TheFool scum(my)?

Yes he's probably Xvart's buddy

Captain corporal(4) - Sundy, PBuG, Hoppster, Panzerjager

[Hoppster]

...yeah.

Seems like we're not getting a CC replacement.

Prefer a CC lynch.


@ panz/Thomith: What have you discussed in your QT?

[Hoppster]

monk is Towny McTownperson. I say we turn this wagon around and lynch Xvart.

^ bit of an overstatement. I agree more with:

I agree that monk has acted town, but that is only one post out of quite afew of CC's scummy posts. idk if a lynch on monk would be a good or bad idea yet, afew more posts could help me decide.

Umm,

^(A) Did anyone see Sleepy's Miller Mason Recruiter claim? I think the scum are gambiting us here.

EK claims miller straight away then Sleepy calim's he's not only a miller but a Mason Recruiter as well?

^(B) I'd be willing to bet there are not two millers in the game. Or two masons.

Panzer:

(A) If you thought SleepyKrew was being serious about his claim, why did you not vote him? His role (ie. the Mason Recruiter bit) is blatantly impossible if you were a mason, so he is essentially CC'ing you. But you voted for the Miller claim that wasn't CC'ing you [Empking] over the one that was [SleepyKrew]? Why?

(B) Umm, this should be self-explanatory. You said you didn't think there were any masons, but you and Thomith

are

Masons apparently.

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE:

monk is :REALLYGOODPOSTING:.

I'm not paticularly worried about Panz/Thomith being scum, because if they are their lies will unravel with time, and if one gets caught as scum by any means we win (obviously).

xvart, claim now.

Give us a full list of reads as well.

[Hoppster]

Wow, bad miscount. Thought xvart was at L-1 for some reason.

VOTE: xvart

Still want a claim, bearing in mind:

20 hours to deadline

I don't want a monk lynch.

[Hoppster]

With this in mind, and in my defense, the point that should be made is what is the scum motivation, intent, and benefit from being such a vocal player, advocating for lynches and fighting tooth and nail for lynches, and drawing incredible amounts of attention because of this? Furthermore, what is the scum benefit from continuing to push a lynch on someone who claimed mason unless I really believed it. Is that the sort of attention that a scum member would want?

This is an awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwful defence.
I have played vocally as scum.

I have played vocally as town.

It's not a tell either way.


However, defending yourself with "HERP DERP WHY WOULD SCUM BE SO VOCAL

AMIRITE????????

" is an unbelievably stupid defence.

As scum (in [REDACTED] - I've flipped) I have aggressively tunnelled on an un-CC'd cop. In a Large game, no less.

IT'S NOT A TOWN-TELL IN THE SLIGHTEST - I KNOW FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE.


Your defence is WIFOM, and shitty WIFOM.

Hey, we were wrong to lynch SleepyKrew. He was just soooo scummy, never justifying his opportunistically timed votes...

BUT WHY WOULD SCUM DO THAT AND MAKE THEMSELVES SUCH OBVIOUS SCUM AMIRITEEEEEEE? SURELY SCUM WOULD WANT TO JUSTIFY THEIR VOTES MORE THAN TOWN SO THAT THEY WERE ABOVE SUSPICION!!111

OH NO WAIT HE WAS SCUM

WHOOOOOOOPS

I CAN'T BE SCUM, SCUM WOULD NEVER PLAY LIKE THIS

SRSLY GAIZ NO SCUM MOTIVATION I'M SUPER SRS

unvote, vote: The Fool

PJ & Thomith are very tempting, but if one is bad, they both are.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

did you read xvart's defence?

And you didn't feel the bloodlust rising within you?

SCEPTICAL HOPPSTER IS SCEPTICAL

[Hoppster]

Hoppster

- I never said it was a

good

defense. It tied hand in hand with what I was saying with motivation and intent behind specific behaviors. I believe my behavior to be town motivated, in that I am advocating and trying to get scummy people lynched. I have yet to see anyone discuss my scum intent and motivations. Furthermore, if it is a null tell why does it fill you with bloodlust? And, if it is a null tell then what exactly am I being accused of doing?

IF IT'S NOT A GOOD DEFENCE

WHY MAKE IT

IT'S NOT EVEN A DEFENCE

THERE'S NO TOWN MOTIVATION FOR MAKING A STUPID DEFENCE LIKE THAT


You are also, as you were on Day 1, not reading my posts.

I did not say your defence was a null-tell, I said your play-style (the one you were harking as a town-tell - "HEY NO SCUM WOULD DO THIS GAIZ FOSHO" was a null-tell.

Your defence is stupid and scummy.

I'm only restraining myself because I have seen town do that stupid defence before, otherwise, believe, I would be baying for your blood on the basis of that post

alone

.


Explain to me, xvart, why it was that on Day 1 you were able to respond to my walls but you somehow selectively chose not to respond to the bits where I called out SleepyKrew as scum.

Your vote on monk is bad bad bad. Changing your mind is not a scum-tell. In this case I'm inclined to believe it's a town-tell as from time-stamps etc. there's clearly a train of thought. You like talking about how there's no scum motivation for your posts - explain the scum motivation for monk saying you're town and then changing his mind before anybody has posted. (I'll give you a clue - the only one is WIFOMic.)

Give us a list of reads. "X and Y are scummy" is not what I'm looking for. I mean a player-by-player list of reads.


This post from TheFool is a very good post and a lot of what he is saying strikes a very good chord (ie. I'm thinking similarly).

And I'm not a big fan of the Xvart case. I guess Monk is being more productive now, though if you ask me I'm NOT totally convinced it's a town slot, I don't like how he's called a couple people townie and then accused them of being scummy, opportunistic, wot wot?

Hypocritical much, wot wot?

PBuG

(i like, although one recent case did catch my attention)

I guess Monk is being more productive now, though if you ask me I'm NOT totally convinced it's a town slot

While you strike both of those off your lynch list you're leaving your options reaaaaaally open should there be a push in either of those directions.

And yours is much worse than monk, because you're doing it more subtly.

2) His transition from Monk to Xvart felt weird to me, and only explained in retrospect

'Zis is not a scum-tell.

But hallo, hypocritical much, wot wot?

unvote, vote: The Fool

1) Jakesh left a bad taste in the mouth
2) His transition from Monk to Xvart felt weird to me, and only explained in retrospect

I'm not trying to ignore the Xvart case, but it just hasn't been that convincing to me. He generally digs down pretty deep when going after a case, and I find a lot of it persuasive.

Yah-huh.

So the case didn't convince you, so you thought you wouldn't bother explaining to everybody on the wagon why they were wrong.

@ Mod: Could we get another extension please? Considering PBug hasn't checked in (due to internet troubles) for, umm, ages.
Also please fix past VCs to take Panzerjager's vote into account kthx.

Empking: compare TheFool's read list and Sundy's read list and tell me why TheFool is a better lynch than Sundy.

[Hoppster]

Fuck, just lost a post which I poured my heart and soul into. Fuck you Firefox.

Basically, the gist of it is, I want xvart out of the game. I don't want to leave him alive for the following reasons:

• Lylo hazard
  : I can tell you know that if xvart and I are alive in lylo, I
  will
  be voting for him on the basis that it would destroy me if xvart-scum won this game, and I suspect there are other players who feel this way. So either we get rid of the scum now because he's scum, or we get rid of the town who could potentially lose us the game in lylo.
• No credibility
  : He has literally zero credibility with what he is saying (for me, at least)... Negative credibility even (if that's possible). For instance, I have reasonable points against Panzer here. xvart agrees with me. That by itself is genuinely enough for me to drop it. Panzer's response aren't great, but I just can't bring myself to follow up simply because xvart agrees with the 'case'. His lack of credibility also means that I struggle to read his posts, knowing how incredibly full of bullshit his posts including his case on me were Day 1. Anything he says I am automatically mentally labelling as bullshit without even digesting what he's saying. It's illogical of me but I just cannot help it.
• Distraction
  : I am finding it extremely difficult to motivate myself to scum-hunt or even post with xvart still alive. I don't know why. I just am. Seriously, it feels like
  trying to read with a screaming baby in the room
  , I'm talking about that level of distraction and I do not know the fuck why it's happening, it just is.

[Hoppster]

Just FYI, I realise I'm being a selfish childish twat but the Mod has specifically asked for no more replacements, so you're stuck with me.

I also genuinely believe an xvart flip would not also help my personal issues but would also benefit the game.

[Hoppster]

Distraction: I am finding it extremely difficult to motivate myself to scum-hunt or even post with xvart still alive. I don't know why. I just am. Seriously, it feels like trying to read with a screaming baby in the room, I'm talking about that level of distraction and I do not know the fuck why it's happening, it just is.

Dude this is not a very easy opinion to deal with.

I appreciate that which is why I qualified it with "I DON'T KNOW WHY I FEEL LIKE THIS" and "I REALISE I'M A DICKHEAD".

It's even impacting on my site-wide activity because I feel horrible posting elsewhere and not here which means I don't post elsewhere because I can't bring myself to post here.

At this point, for the benefit of my other games and this one I would be willing to replace out but then we need a replacement for PBug and weighing it up I think having two slots pending replacements would be more harmful to the game than me staying in the game and continuing to voice douchebaggy opinions.

It's just a part of my psychology, whether that be normal or a sign of a highly disturbed individual, and ultimately I can't change that.

xvart: I apologise for being a douche. I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely am sorry, but you being alive just bothers me on a psychological level completely which I can't really explain.

I am feeling awful about the way I am treating this game and the players, so if people want me to I will replace out if you think it will help the game.

VOTE: xvart

Stop saying words and die scum, even if you're town you are being incredibly antitown and need to be removed from the game

Granted I'm not

really

reading xvart's posts (I'm skimming though), but how is what he is doing any more anti-town than what I'm doing (trying to lynch people for, well, for reasons I don't quite understand myself)?

[Hoppster]

@ Mod: Not knowing the deadline is a sign that you need to give us another extension.

[Hoppster]

@ Mod: If we go into night, what's going to be the order of events for resolving the PBug slot's absence?

And please fix past VCs again kthx.

[Hoppster]

>_____>

This game. It's ridiculous.

Admittedly this is probably my fault, but still.

@ Mod: Will we have an infinitely long night if we do not get a replacement for PBug?

Also, how strict is the deadline? Eg, if I hammer but then it shows up on site-time (set at GMT) as 3:15pm, will you allow it?

I'll be around at deadline and I'll just hammer anybody.

HELLO IF YOU ARE READING THIS AND CONSIDERING REPLACING IN

(I know I usually skim recent posts before replacing into a game)

THEN PLEASE, REPLACE IN. I'M WILLING TO PUT UP WITH ANYBODY, EVEN DEITYKABUTO.

monk, I don't understand why you're not voting.

@ Mod: Please fix your VC - Monk isn't voting xvart anymore.

[Hoppster]

oh my god xvart/hoppster fight is melting my eyeballs

please tell me the next 20 pages aren't all like this

DON'T WORRY, THERE'S NO NEED TO BOTHER READING THE NEXT 20 PAGES (see below)


So I fucked up yesterday wrt deadline - I forgot about the game. Yeah... sorry about that.

BUT I'LL MAKE IT UP TO YOU GAIZ, I SWEAR

Claim: Super-Awesome Cop Guy

VOTE: Thomith

We lynch either Thomith, Panzerjager or myself today.

I investigated Thomith and got a guilty, so he's obviously scum with Panzerjager.

I investigated vollkan N1, which is why I was "WTF" when he got killed.

I did think Masons + Cop was powerful (two information roles) but didn't CC because there was always a chance scum had that crap-load of power. BUT I'VE GOT A GUILTY, SO.

Or you can lynch me and prove the claim, we still win. Whatever. That's less preferable because there's still the outside chance of there being a SK, but from the lack of kills that seems unlikely anyway.

There's the outside chance that Thomith was framed by a Mafia Framer, in which case it doesn't matter who we lynch first (myself or a mason) because when one flips town the other is auto-lynched anyway, so there's no point dwelling on that. I think it's unlikely, anyway.

Semi-wall below, sorry all.

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

...

C

ome again?

O

f course

there's a chance he's town (and therefore a Miller), that's the situation WITH EVERYBODY.

P

lease... with this logic, you should never ever make a vote apart from a select few scenarios when somebody is confirmed scum.

That's my breadcrumb from early Day 1.

POWERLYNCH TO VICTORY GAIZ

THAT'S WHAT YOU DAMN SCUMZ GET FOR LEAVING ME ALIVE, I PERSONALLY THOUGHT I WAS OBVTOWN AFTER NAILING SLEEPYKREW. WHATEVER. IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE ME ALIVE TO DESTROY YOU, THAT WORKS TOO.

Also, sorry about the shit I was pulling yesterday xvart. I want to pretend that was a clever gambit to make sure scum left me alive.

[Hoppster]

There's the outside chance that Thomith was framed by a Mafia Framer, in which case it doesn't matter who we lynch first (myself or a mason)

>>

This should obviously be 'mason'.

If you scumz want to push this as a scumslip, though, be my guest. I'm sure it won't look like AAAH-SCUMFLAIL at all.

[Hoppster]

EBWOP2: No, wait, I was right initially taking context into account. DAMN ADRENALINE MAKING ME DOUBT MYSELF.

[Hoppster]

HURRY UP GAIZ I WANT TO LYNCH SCUMZ BEFORE MOD GOES V/LA

[Hoppster]

WOOO SO CLOSE TO VICTORY

IT TASTES SWEET


I wonder if the Mod could just declare it a town victory after this lynch (assumming no SK), because assuming no shenanigans it's not like we're going to be lynching anybody

other

than Panzerjager tomorrow, so we'd just waiting 48 hours for night only to come in and speedlynch (well, I'd probably be dead, but still).

I suppose it could be fun to see what excuses Panzerjager comes up with tomorrow.

[Also, I forgot to mention earlier, I was actually roleblocked N1 so my investigation would have failed anyway (the fact that the person I investigated turned up dead aside).]

[Hoppster]

YEAH GO TOWN

WOOOOO


In a way, this is almost a perfect victory, as we actually only lynched scum.

SO YEAH WOOO


I investigated vollkan due to bad, bad gut twinges, largely on his weird stance between xvart and myself (the "Huh I believe Hoppster but xvart sounds like he's making a goodp point" stuff).

The Mason business was extremely unfortunate for poor Thomith. I had a pretty strong town read on Thomith up until then.

Fun setup, but I'm inclined to believe it's town-sided, as the traitor makes things very awkward for scumz.

[Hoppster]

Fun setup, but I'm inclined to believe it's town-sided, as the traitor makes things very awkward for scumz.

I disagree as although on the surface this may appear so, but remember that Scum had daytalk (which is very powerful when used correctly) and the miller also favoured scum, but I feel emplking plyed the miller role well

Iamausername just got his easiest town win ever

Daytalk doesn't compensate for "WOOPS WE JUST KILLED OUR SCUMBUDDY" imho.

[Hoppster]

TBH, it would have looked dodgy with Panzer claiming to be masons with you and then him flipping Unrecruitable Traitor.

Not completely sure if that by itself would have been lynch-worthy, but it definitely would have made me think.

[Hoppster]

No, I mean had Thomith said "LOL PANZER IS LYING SCUM". >>