Mini 1190: Game over

[Sundy]

Hello people.

EST, town, Batman, and I forgot the last question

I don't even feel like doing a RVS since you guys jumped into action so fast.

[Sundy]

Well I kinda liked CC while everyone else was up in his face, so that's a mark against SK.

Having the initials SK is another mark against him.

Claiming that CC voted Miller-claim = not reading thread, making up case = bad. Looking for contradictions = possible genuine scum hunting? Calling his own logic "shit" and saying others should think him scummy for it = kinda town. Changing directions and voting for me = why?

I have a contradictory read ATM. SK looks like someone trying to be really aggressive and awesome with a slight hint of town despite himself.

[Sundy]

Oh geez guys you make it real hard to follow a game on my phone. This has to be a record time for 9 pages

I'll do a more detailed read tmrw when I'm not sloshed but so far I'm wanting to vote Toro in this Toro/Emp shindig. Let's see if a more-than-cursory read changes my view

[Sundy]

OK that re-read happened. I had to skim a little bit during some of the more complicated arguments, but that's your guys' fault for not being more concise.

PEOPLE I LIKE:

CC, Hoppster, Pbug. The last two are always posting things I agree with, and CC (who was lurking after a strong entrance) accused himself of lurking in a townie fashion.

SUSPICIONS:

Thomith was echoing lots of people, as other players have already stated.
Jakesh's vote on Empking was worthy of votes on Jakesh, as others have already stated.
Elfen is weird.
Panzerjager/1joe60/animorph: I have no impression of them. I don't like this. People could accuse me of posting in the same manner since I have been lurking, but my excuse is that I'm at a wedding, where 1-2 of the above 3 are probably scum.

WHO TO VOTE?

Sooooo, since I disagree with 1 of the wagons (SK) and I want to keep Empking/Toro around for the good points they make, I would recommend we redirect our wagon onto ANY of the 6 players above.

*break for ISO re-read*

vote: Panzerjager

ISO #1: accuses Empking (misses obv-joke)
ISO #2: reiterates point
ISO #3: reiterates point AGAIN
ISO #4: continues to accuse Empking of lying, but also jumps on his Toro suspicions. If both of these players are town, this is a good move for PJ.
ISO #5 & 6: whatever whatever blah blah blah, Empking/Toro reiterations here too

[Sundy]

Panzer should be unlyncvhable just because he's not part of the atmosphere of lurking and not voting that will screw us over.

And you're voting for Toro why then?

Panzer has 7 posts, only 3 players have less posts and 1 (Jakesh) is tied. And Panzer is one of these that has provided content I deem suspicious rather than just being checked out and null.

[Sundy]

Panzer should be unlyncvhable just because he's not part of the atmosphere of lurking and not voting that will screw us over.

And you're voting for Toro why then?

Yeah, I thought about that when I made my post. There's around a 90% chance that Toro is scum, its worth it in this specific case.

Well your vote's fine. Personally I wanted to see conversation about something besides you:toro since the long fights were confusing me. I'm sure you feel quite justified in your vote however

nonetheless I do dispute the claim that Panzer is one of the ones who is keeping the game from lurkerdom, since I specifically pulled his name from my list of lurker-esque types

[Sundy]

What current votes do you consider justified? (From my POV its mine, Toro's, Panzer's and your's)

Hoppster's vote on SK was reasonable, though now a bit dated
Why do you say Toro's vote on you is justified?
Why is Panzer's vote on Toro justified and not SK?

[Sundy]

@Empking: Oh and re: justified votes, all current votes seem fine to me except Jakesh (worst vote ever) and Animorph. Doesn't mean they're all laid by innocents but they're thought through

I'd like to see more votes laid down so we can have an actual bandwagon instead of low-stakes, back-and-forth carping

[Sundy]

Don't want a Panzer lynch. I think it's quite a strong town-tell that he didn't realise the obvjoke SleepyKrew claim.

Does this town-tell also apply to Animorph/xvart?

[Sundy]

Lalalala

Okay I'm in the bottom half of posters, but with every post I have added content(suspicious in your eyes or not) and I find it kinda pot-kettle that a guy with only two more post than me and went 7 pages without posting is accusing me of lurking.

It is pot-kettle. That said, low-activity is still a pretty good scum-tell, and 1 or more of the lurkers is likely on the scum team. It's not me, so it's probably some of the others.

2&3: This aren't reiterations. These are answers to questions. It's protown to answer questions and clarify things. I had nothing else relevent to posts, so I posted what i needed to

They were repetitive answers to questions. Another word to describe them: Reiterations. I also felt that several of your answers restated points that other players had already made (ex. Toro saying he'd take a cop investigation). They all followed the old Toro/Empking axis of investigation, but didn't seem to me to add anything new.

Man this Panzer makes relevant posts and adds content to the game, I think he's scum

Why are you winking? *eyebrow*

So you admit Jakesh's vote is horrible, yet aren't voting him, why?

I didn't ADMIT his vote was horrible, I SAID his vote was horrible. "Admit" is something scum do when they're trying to hide something. I'm more than happy with a bandwagon on Jakesh. He'd already been called out for his sins (which I noted in my post earlier today). You, on the other hand, have flown under the radar with little attention paid to you (from what I recall, so correct me if I'm wrong, hard to double-check since the thread is already so long), so I decided to post about you. Furthermore, there are other posters with even fewer posts, but they strike me as disengaged, which makes the lurking less of a scum-tell, and more indicative of possible disengagement altogether. Animorph, for instance, I've played a game with where he barely posted, replaced out, and was town.

Also what are your views on Captain Corporal?

I've stated in several posts that he's not giving me bad vibes so far. To expand, I liked his flurry of activity at the beginning. I did think it was a little weird how he tapered off on that, but now he's not a top priority for me.

This is the only moment is your post where you even somewhat address your thoughts on Empking and Toro. What are your reads on them? You surely have them, given how much of the thread has been them arguing with each other.

Empking I find more trustworthy than Toro, but he seems to have a very cool head, so I'm trying not to take him at face-value too much. I support a Toro lynch if it comes to that, but I'd rather talk about some other things first, since the case really started to tunnel and get boring. It would not surprise me if they were both town. I would be somewhat surprised if Empking was scum, less surprised if Toro was scum. I don't think they both are.

[Sundy]

I've claimed multiple times in the thread, go search for it.

Can you elaborate?

[Sundy]

Vote: Elfen

[Sundy]

Sundy what did you mean when reading Panzer's ISO #1 that he missed an Obv-Joke?

The Miller Mason Recruiter line. Even if he didn't realize it was sarcastic, it reminded me of the time he was accusing Toro & Empking of being both scum. He says that the mason claims are some sort of a weird gambit by scum, rather than the more obvious possibility that the claims were unrelated. His excuse is that he's giving elaborate theories to cover every base, but it looks to me like he's casting the maximum possible circle of suspicion.

Did you not say you would keep both myself and Empking around? Why would you vote me if it 'comes to that'?

To prevent a no-lynch, or if there was no better bandwagon. Now that you've claimed 1-shot vig, I think we can verify that you're not aligned with the main scum faction by the fact of there being 2 kills tonight. If you're trying to appear pro-town when you place your kill (and you're lying about begin town, as a SK), then you'll try to kill someone scummy, and hopefully hit scum in the process. If you're aligned with the scum, there shouldn't be 2 kills tonight and we can kill you anyway!

[Sundy]

Elfen, do you think Toro is the best lynch given that 1) he might just be a PR, 2) if he's Mafia then he can't produce 2 kills, and 3) if he's not town-aligned he'll still want to appear so by striking out in an anti-town direction??

Does that still make him the best lynch? Who else would you recommend besides him or yourself?

[Sundy]

Unvote: Elfen

[Sundy]

You call the case on you massively solid, Toro? :/

@ Mod: If there were any Mafia PRs in this game, would they be able to carry out both the NK and their own action?

Good point I forgot about Mafia-aligned vig.

Well if the chances of harm being done by 2 kills outweigh the advantage of giving Toro the benefit of the doubt and letting him try and hit scum, then I'll put my vote on Toro. Especially if he considers the case on him solid.

[Sundy]

It was solid enough to get me to L-1, wouldn't you say so?

When I'm town, i usually consider wagons on me scum-driven or bad logic.

[Sundy]

Absolutely no way town should vig themselves!

NO SELF VIG

vote: Jakesh

sounds reasonable to me, I was thinking along these lines. At least get some pressure and decent engagement going.

[Sundy]

Since Elfen is getting replaced, it makes sense to hear from his replacement first before sealing his fate, yes?

[Sundy]

I know nobody liked the idea of a Panzerjager wagon last time, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Number 378: Requests self-vig from someone who would prove they are telling the truth by performing this vig
Number 386: Says that Elfen replacement cannot change what Elfen did, even though earlier he said that there is no real evidence either way on Elfen
Number 395: Votes xvart saying, "did not even notice all that." notice what!? Hoppster made a long defensive post that basically reiterated what he already posted, so what new is there to gain? Called out on this by SK and Xvart, gives weak defense
Number 447: FOS on Hiplop with some weird views on meta & sample sizes

TO SUM UP

: did anyone really follow his train of thought with the votes on Xvart, CC, and now Hiplop??

Hoppster: I found xvart more persuasive.
CC: Really has not redeeemed himself yet from tapering off after a strong beginning, but PJ pushing his lynch still makes me feel benovolent towards him.
Volkan: the end of number 430 slightly annoys me, when he wants to change PJs mind (even though PJ just called him town)
Toro: Seems to have disappeared

[Sundy]

2) I don't like replacements in general. They are a necessary but heavy burden. Elfen was straight unreadable because he was an idiot. I don't care if fucking Yosarian or Glork replace in, they aren't gonna make Elfen less of an idiot, even if they play the straight up townest game one can play. The spot is still tainted. And If we choose to clear the idiocy, we could be giving the scum a pass and the game. This is an awkward view, but (since you are on about meta too) meta me. I think PBuG and most other players who have played with me(which is still most the game) can attest to the fact that I hold replacement spots as far more scummy then regular spots. Most people that replace out are either caught scum or someone who never showed up in the beginning. Also, we established that Toro should be shooting Jakesh.
3) I don't think those are weird views. You can't predict behavior based on such a small sample size. If I get in a fight when I'm drunk, it's unfair to assume I always fight when i'm drunk based on one incident. Why do you think psychologist use samples of 100s even 1000s in their studies? Because 1 incident doesn't mean there is a correalation. Also didn't we go over the weird=/=scummy thing before(this applies to 2 and 3)?

Also, is tunneling the only thing you stop lurking to do?

I don't think there's any connection whatsoever between Elfen being an idiot and the slot being scum. You said he was "unreadable" and now the slot is forever tainted? Why??? Being a bad player does not make the slot scum or town. And I'm not trying to give his replacement a pass, I'm just saying it wasn't a good idea for you to call for him being vigged based on nothing. It was a bad idea and it may have been anti-town.

Why are you asking me to meta you for your view of replacements when you were JUST saying how meta was so impossible? And yes, it's weird to apply scientific standards of hundreds of games, because Mafia isn't really like that. And no, weirdness alone doesn't make you scummy, your other actions do. Also your contradictions on when meta is and is not appropriate to use.

I am definitely not lurking, PJ, and I am not really tunneling you either. I've voted 2 people since I voted you. I just keep on commenting on you because you keep on doing things that strike me as off.

Hoppster: an example of why xvart is more convincing: You padded your post with a million examples like Madonna and The Simpsons, but you kind of missed the point. You didn't say "if you're town, you'll feel blah blah blah," you said "for town, you'll feel blah blah blah." The lack of an If is key, and I think it's telling you inserted If into your defense, and said it was interchangeable when it is not.

After xvart/hoppster, I feel a little like I did after empking/toro. Both not scum, maybe both town, slightly more likely to be xvart/empking as town.

Volkan, the thing that ticked me is you quoted a post saying you were town and said something to the effect of "let me change your mind." obviously I know you meant to refer to the other part you quoted, I just found it amusing.

I'll look over SK later. A concisely stated case would as always be most appreciated.

[Sundy]

unvote, vote: Hoppster

[Sundy]

Hoppster is starting to look scum, but i cant get over the town read i got on him from earlier on :\

If I wasn't already voting him this post would have convinced me to.

By "him" you mean Hiplop? What is your view of El Hoppster???

[Sundy]

El Hoppster(3) - Xvart, Sleepykrew

My nickname was so awesome that you had to leave out my name while counting my vote?

[Sundy]

Daydreamt is a word?!

[Sundy]

1) Pointing that Emp did it was a way of saying why I'm the only one answering for it.

For me, what you said was worse than Empking. He said it first, but almost off-hand. Only

two minutes later

, he changed his mind to suggest taking out a lurker. You took the suggestion a lot more seriously, and even after giving yourself an entire day to think it over, you still set up an entire separate vote-count devoted to the idea of having him vig himself. You always took the idea a lot more seriously than Empking did. However, there are 2-3 things in your post above that are improving my impression of you.

What's puzzling me here is that your initial case convinced me, but Hoppster's rebuttal seemed clear enough. However, I am now worried that, not having the ability to keep up with your walls (I've been reading them, but it's just hard to follow), I am missing something important on hoppster. It especially concerns me because the sort of tells you are identifying are precisely the type that I consider most important as scumtells.

This reads as off to me. If you are so WORRIED and ESPECIALLY CONCERNED, why do you not just read through xvart points on Hoppster again? Or better yet, make up your own mind independently? Why express all this agony about whether or not you might be missing something on Hoppster, and go do some research for yourself to find out??

[Sundy]

I thought I had understood it when I gave Hopp the initial 7, then he made a decent rebuttal. The thing is that xvart seems convinced that he has a strong case, but for the most part Hopp's rebuttals are also reasonable-sounding. You're just being unrealistic if you think that the solution to enablingn people to follow a lengthy wall debate is "READ IT!". I say this as someone who has wall debates a lot myself - they are next to useless for persuading other people.

I guess one solution would be if xvart just provided slightly more detail onto his list (explaining each tell briefly), and then Hopp responded on each - rather than this debate getting drawn out any further. They're both convinced of their own positions, but, if I can't understand it, I'll wager that it isn't making all that much sense to most others.

To some extent I do understand this. It is what I was getting at when I compared Toro/Empking to Hoppster/Xvart here. Do you have a read on Hoppster outside of the Xvart fight?

SK could easily just make 1 kill and let it go. Scum could just claim he was blocked. How else would you test it?

Mod: can you tell us whether double-targeting is allowed?

If it is not allowed, then the "I was role-blocked" defense will only work once, if we are willing to give Toro another night given that things do not go as we expect tomorrow.

[Sundy]

Mod: can you tell us whether double-targeting is allowed?

were I to include a role with 2 active abilities, which i am neither confirming nor denying, then It might be possible for them to submit 2 actions during a night phase. However a role which could do this I am neither confirming nor denying.

Sorry. My question was whether a player can target another player twice in a row on two consecutive nights.

Could you also tell us whether, in a version of the Tspoon universe that included a 1-shot vig, whether a role-blocked vig would have used his 1 shot?

Thanks Empking for being the first to bring up the RB and give the scum team clever ideas! Though I am sure they thought of it already.

[Sundy]

Hoppster: an example of why xvart is more convincing: You padded your post with a million examples like Madonna and The Simpsons, but you kind of missed the point. You didn't say "if you're town, you'll feel blah blah blah," you said "for town, you'll feel blah blah blah." The lack of an If is key, and I think it's telling you inserted If into your defense, and said it was interchangeable when it is not.

YOU'RE NOT READING IT PROPERLY

AAARGH

READ IT

THAT PART IS NOT AN IMPORTANT PART, BUT IF YOU PRETEND IT DOESN'T EXIST AND THEN READ THE REST AND COME BACK AND READ IT AGAIN THEN IT SHOULD BE REALLLLLLLY OBVIOUS

OK. You should really P-edit your posts, and then slice out any extraneous language. I swear you were posting the exact same paragraph two or three times. I do not see how I am misinterpreting what you said at all. Your sentence seemed to be saying that if xvart were town, he would read what you said and see the sense in it. Except you left out the "if." Whatever. Let us drop that question for now.

So who should we vote? I am going to ignore everything you say about xvart, since your case seems built upon your problems with his case on you. And that leaves SK. Since your very second post, you have been pushing a lynch on SK. I actually had a town read on you at first because I liked your first attack on him-- that you pointed out that CC did not vote the miller claim. A lot of your other points did not seem as well-grounded, and were significantly more subjective. You have quoted his posts like 12 times and say "this is scummy."

Can you concisely state why SK is scum using analysis and evidence? Or anyone else that we should vote besides yourself?

Empking, you were saying how it was scummy for someone to expand their options of who they would vote for. If you look at Hoppster and his stance on PJ, you will say that he rules out a PJ lynch at first, and later says he is more open to the possibility. What do you think of that????

[Sundy]

But you would be willing to hammer Hop?

As a deadline compromise instead of Hiplop, yeah.

First off, to get my standard "How I Play" PSA out of the way: I rank my suspects from 0 (absolutely town) - 100 (absolutely scum). Everybody starts at 50. Because I don't believe in towntells and am skeptical about most scumtells, it is common for people to stay at 50. 50 does not mean "no opinion" - it means "I don't see scumtells" from this person. Absent claims,

need for deadline compromises

, etc. I will always vote the person with the highest score.

I hope you will revise all of your scum-points and future town-tells in light of new information (especially after lynches and the night) or this manner of playing will start to seem

awfully

rigid.

[Sundy]

But you would be willing to hammer Hop?

As a deadline compromise instead of Hiplop, yeah.

First off, to get my standard "How I Play" PSA out of the way: I rank my suspects from 0 (absolutely town) - 100 (absolutely scum). Everybody starts at 50. Because I don't believe in towntells and am skeptical about most scumtells, it is common for people to stay at 50. 50 does not mean "no opinion" - it means "I don't see scumtells" from this person. Absent claims,

need for deadline compromises

, etc. I will always vote the person with the highest score.

I hope you will revise all of your scum-points and future town-tells in light of new information (especially after lynches and the night) or this manner of playing will start to seem

awfully

rigid.

EBWOP: I also cannot help but notice that you have null-tells on fully half the players in the game. Don't like it.

[Sundy]

But you would be willing to hammer Hop?

As a deadline compromise instead of Hiplop, yeah.

First off, to get my standard "How I Play" PSA out of the way: I rank my suspects from 0 (absolutely town) - 100 (absolutely scum). Everybody starts at 50. Because I don't believe in towntells and am skeptical about most scumtells, it is common for people to stay at 50. 50 does not mean "no opinion" - it means "I don't see scumtells" from this person. Absent claims,

need for deadline compromises

, etc. I will always vote the person with the highest score.

I hope you will revise all of your scum-points and future town-tells in light of new information (especially after lynches and the night) or this manner of playing will start to seem

awfully

rigid.

I do revise my scumpoints if new information comes to light. But it will be a cold day in hell before I'm seen giving out townpoints (see previous post)

Yes that is why I said "future town-tells," in order to suggest the town-tells you will begin making, once you realize that this particular portion of your Mafia theory (no town-tells) must be cast aside.

Anyway I did not really need the explanation you so kindly provided, because it is clear you are doing the same in all of your games, and I do not find you very scummy in this one. I am just pointing out that these particular aspects of your game-play (no town-tells, and having a large frequency of null reads) must be very nice indeed when you are playing scum, as it leaves your options wide-open.

This is very dull theory-talk. Will someone please do something exciting, like contribute to a bandwagon?

[Sundy]

Welcome TheFool. I think you are seriously right about Captain Corporal, who has earned a big red star next to his name until he comes back and actually contributes. He is looking worse every day tbqh. Give me 24 hours and I would be more than happy to bandwagon the crap out of him.

Ditto Thomith.
@Mod: prod on Thomith?
@Mod: can you add asterisks to the opening post to indicate prods, as promised?

I still think one of the two of you are scum, but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum. My vote will stay there, and unless you want more of a case from me, gonna make a more compelling case on hoppster(or a new target), or actually want to build a case on me, I don't really have much to add.

Is the other Hiplop Hoppster? I thought you were under the impression he had acted fairly scummily...

[Sundy]

Welcome TheFool. I think you are seriously right about Captain Corporal, who has earned a big red star next to his name until he comes back and actually contributes. He is looking worse every day tbqh. Give me 24 hours and I would be more than happy to bandwagon the crap out of him.

Way to pat him on the back for something I said 2 or 3 pages ago.

You seemed a lot more desperately-trying-to-find-scum-elsewhere at the time. Now your ISO seems plausible!

Here is my categorization of players in the order of which I would not like to lynch them, as I am bored right and waiting until it gets later until I can go out to the bar.

TOWN:

Sundy

CLEARED FOR LYNCH UNTIL MORE INFO POPS UP:

Empking, Toro

SEEMED TRUSTWORTHY BUT WHERE DID THEY GO?:

PBuG

SEEM TRUSTWORTHY BUT CANNOT BE TOO CAUTIOUS:

Xvart, Vollkan

TRENDING TOWN UNLESS I CHANGE MY MIND:

Panzerjager, Sleepykrew

WTF? NO REAL REASON NOT TO LYNCH:

TheFool, Hiplop

SERIOUSLY GONNA KILL YOU IF YOU DO NOT COME BACK:

Captain Corporal, Thomith

LYNCH:

Hoppster

I hope this list does not make me look stupid once all is revealed.

[Sundy]

OMG am I actually going to get my Panzer wagon soon??

unvote, vote: SleepyKrew

[Sundy]

Huh. With 5 people in your list scummier than Panz/Sleepy, why are you voting one and hoping for a wagon on the other?

Notice that 2 of the scummier players were listed in a scummy category because I wanted them to post again. And 1 of them has done so since then. Furthermore, the category I listed Panz/Sleep in was "trending town unless I change my mind." So clearly I changed my mind, innit?

Reasons why I decided to change my vote:

#1 PBuG's re-entry into the game and analysis, both of Hoppster and of SleepyKrew (his views on Panzer didn't hurt)
#2 Hoppster's pleas in large letters, which I looked at with new eyes when they were legitimized by a player I trust more
#3 I had an early town-read on SK thanks to the number of his posts and the early vote & un-vote on me. I recently (yesterday) read him in ISO and was struck by the number of his posts which were 1 or 2 liners
#4 He is very active in other threads as well, with similarly-styled posts, but a quick scan of the other game (today) indicated that he was pressuring harder and in a more threatening manner in his other game (this is obviously subjective)
#5 His reason for voting Hip was bad

Panzer I find it just delightful that you express suspicion of my vote while putting the wagon I placed my vote on at L-1. And by "delightful," I mean "evil."

[Sundy]

@Sundy: Time to start reading my posts. I said I'd be V/LA until now. IGMEOY.

Plz.

My problems with your lack of content far predate your V/LA starting on Friday, June 24th.

You acknowledged this yourself in a post on Wednesday:

I have been slacking off and not scumhunting. While I have been keeping a few notes on people, I haven't really been working.

So how about instead of you asking us all to say what we think of you, you start scum-hunting again and

then

we can give our opinions on you? Maybe you can start by saying whether you think that Panzer vs. SK is a better lynch, whether Hip or Hop is a better lynch, or whether you prefer someone else altogether?

[Sundy]

Just checked something. When hip joined the game, Panzer was all:
"Meta sucks."
"You can't meta from one game."
"Meta is garbage."

Now let's look at his latest post... Hmm...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

General question for anyone who wants to answer it:

Does this REALLY NOT seem like a bus to anyone? I can't get over the idea that this would be a really bad move by SK if he and Panzer were scum-buddies. And that worries me.

[Sundy]

FoS: Sundy

for changing his mind on three different people based on my post; that being said, I agree that I see potential SK/Panzer bussing.

My post already gave you a good deal of credit, no need to assign yourself even more. I found your analysis reinforced an interpretation of the gameplay that I had previously espoused, it's not like you converted me to a different religion. And when you change your mind on one player, it makes perfect sense to see other players in a new light, as it changes the way you see a host of interactions.

[Sundy]

That was based on this:

#1 PBuG's re-entry into the game and analysis, both of Hoppster and of SleepyKrew (his views on Panzer didn't hurt)
#2 Hoppster's pleas in large letters, which I looked at with new eyes when they were legitimized by a player I trust more

I simply thought it a bit surprising that I'd influenced what appeared to be a strong scum view of Hoppster and town reads of SK and Panzer just a few posts previous. You had just been clamoring for Hoppster's immediate lynch.

No sir!

SK & Panzer were both in the scum-half of my reads. Maybe it was confusing because I said "trending town unless I change my mind," but they were nonetheless in the second half of my list.

And I never clamored for an immediate lynch and I wouldn't even say I had a "strong scum view." My vote was on Hoppster, but during that whole time, I was asking questions to other players, asking people what they thought about Hoppster and other cases as well, expressing ambiguity on Hoppster/Xvart, and asking Hoppster for details on his SK case.

None of this was calling for an immediate lynch or expressing a particularly immutable scum read. All this was before you came back to the game, though yes I did like your post, and yes you did encourage me to change my vote.

[Sundy]

OMG there is a Sunday now too??

unreal.

Sunday, can you tell us why you say you are already prepared to vig the hammer vote? Does it have anything to do with your read on SK? Do you think he is innocent? If so, why??? And have you read the entire game yet?

[Sundy]

Well now.

I would like to hear from Toro first, I think.

(Tspoon, I am impressed by the depth and breadth of literary allusion in your flavor.)

[Sundy]

Thankyou very much

I made it in a rush and it's not as big as past ones, but I try to stick a nice quote about enemies in at the start of each day phase (mafia is all about enemies and friends, no?)

oh, and Toro is Sunday now, just to remind you

Ah yes. BTW, is Quilford going to continue to pop in?

[Sundy]

OK.

Normally I would try to start a Panzer wagon again, but I still think (as said in an earlier post) that SleepyKrew's post about him right before he got lynched seems a little bit unlike a scum-buddy.

CC offered a ton of null reads that all essentially say the same thing. He's been saying for several days now that he had a weak scum read on me without providing any evidence, and now he has me as his ONLY scum-read-- again, with no evidence. Voting CC is very, very tempting at the moment. But I will re-read first. Closest competitors are Thomith and TheFool.

[Sundy]

vote: Captain Corporal

I am keeping an eye on the Xvart case as it develops. I found the earlier analysis of his interaction with SK persuasive, but a lot of the rest of the post feels like throwing things to the wall to see if they stick. And even though I have lessened suspicions of Panzer, I like the way in which Xvart defends himself against Panzer´s argument. Thus: conflicted.

CC on the other hand seems rather unambiguously scum. Until he has a really good solid read on players (at least enough to lay a vote down), he looks like scum who let the pot go too long without stirring it, and now is afraid to touch anything without it blowing up in his face.

[Sundy]

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile... I am in a new city right now and it's the 4th of July. :excuses:

Nothing really seems to have changed
After a bit of vacillation, I am back to thinking Panzer is a worthy lynch candidate
Less inclined now to vote Xvart

Still very pleased with a vote on Captain "why is active lurking a scum tell" Corporal

[Sundy]

Oh also I've been thinking it's to our benefit to kill all the Mafia as quickly as possible (duh) since it'd be a shame for a SK to be able to exercise 1 kill and then restrain himself for the rest of the game under cover of a fake RC. Yes Sunday I'm talking to you. I don't think this is necessarily the case and there's nothing to be done about it right now, but if Mafia is dead and the game isn't over yet, well then...

[Sundy]

Back from V/LA.

People who ignored me when I was screaming SleepyKrew was scum in big letters - why?

(You know who you are.)

Ohai no answers.

Hmmmmmmm.

One more chance, ppz.

Am I one of the people you're talking about?

Because I thought about it, and pretty much decided I wasn't, so...

[Sundy]

Sundy: Who do you think I am talking to (ie. who do you think is guilty of ignoring me)?

Sunday, Volkan, Thomith, and TheFool?

[Sundy]

EBWOP:

Well, not Volkan, let's not speak ill of the dead.

[Sundy]

Sundy. Dude. You ignored it until I came back and supported it. Not trying to infer that I influenced your read again but srsly.

Yeah but I don't think I need to answer Hoppster's question since I answered it way back when I switched my vote. I even addressed his big font and everything.

whatev!

[Sundy]

I can't decide if it's worth letting someone come in and replace for CC, take the time to read 35 pages, and then lynch them anyways-- unless they can demonstrate some kind of innocence.

In the absence of this, maybe Panzer?

I just feel we need a night phase, the game is kind of STAGNANT right now despite there being excellent scum candidates.

[Sundy]

Do you have any actual suspects, Heliman?

[Sundy]

Do you have any actual suspects, Heliman?

Panzar, primarily. My condolences if my suspicion of him wasn't blatant enough for you to notice in my previous post.

It was more the absence of a vote.

[Sundy]

Ok first of all reasons I replaced in to this appears to be

doomed slot

First of all I read through the thread and got a

slight town read

on CC

Was your town read justified when you read your role PM?? I look forward to your reads...

As you might have figured out I'm pushing your lynch. Partly because my list of scum reads took a big hit with Panzer/Thomith.

[Sundy]

Monk is being rather charming. I like his read on the game. Want to read a more complete one. And he is right that I am indecisive. It is a flaw I like to pretend is strategic.

[Sundy]

unvote, vote: The Fool

PJ & Thomith are very tempting, but if one is bad, they both are.

[Sundy]

DISCLAIMER: I'm pissed off at games at another site and this game isn't going anywhere atm.

unvote, vote: The Fool

PJ & Thomith are very tempting, but if one is bad, they both are.

Make sense androgynous personage!! We are not going to lynch Masons!! Case on TheFool that doesn't boil down to he's linked to xvart or sleepykrew!! This post screams scummy!!

GREAT FANTASTIC. My post isn't on either of the mason claims, so I don't see what your problem is. My reason for mentioning them is why I'm crossing them off for a lynch this round, which is what you did recently as well. Although it's too bad there's not more consensus, because I think Xvart's points about the weirdness of someone "forgetting" what their PM said are more plausible than simply the fact that day-talk is allowed for other masons. BUT ANYWAY.

I'm not trying to ignore the Xvart case, but it just hasn't been that convincing to me. He generally digs down pretty deep when going after a case, and I find a lot of it persuasive.

Monk

Sundy

(town)
Hoppster

Thomith

(mason claim)

Panzerjager

(mason claim)

Heliman

(apparently vig)
Xvart
TheFool

PBuG

(i like, although one recent case did catch my attention)

Empking

(i like)

And I'm not a big fan of the Xvart case. I guess Monk is being more productive now, though if you ask me I'm NOT totally convinced it's a town slot, I don't like how he's called a couple people townie and then accused them of being scummy, opportunistic, wot wot?

That leaves Hoppster and TheFool.

What are good reasons for voting TheFool?
1) Jakesh left a bad taste in the mouth
2) His transition from Monk to Xvart felt weird to me, and only explained in retrospect

[Sundy]

While you strike both of those off your lynch list you're leaving your options reaaaaaally open should there be a push in either of those directions.

Yeah big deal. I'm not sure who's scum, so I consider ALL my options open if a good enough case is presented, thank you. From a scum perspective, sure, that's me keeping my options open for a mis-lynch. But from my perspective, I'm just town with limited information.

And yours is much worse than monk, because you're doing it more subtly.

By "yours" I assume you reference the way I'm keeping my options open and/or changing my mind. Like you said, changing one's mind alone isn't scummy. Like you ALSO said, what you need is a train of thought. I've had a train of thought for my actions. I don't see Monk, both in the case of Xvart (as laid out above), and in the way he did an ISO on me, and then started pushing the idea I was scummy simply because I voted The Fool. That's not a train of thought.

But hallo, hypocritical much, wot wot?

Wow, the "wot wot" bit must have really annoyed you for you to repeat it twice, wot wot?

So the case didn't convince you, so you thought you wouldn't bother explaining to everybody on the wagon why they were wrong.

I did just that often.
MOST FREQUENTLY in response to you Hoppster. Plz read.

Actually, re-reading my ISO I am going to go ahead and assign scum points to whoever said I was trying to ignore the Xvart case, for blatant lying. Let's see, who was that?

AH YES. THE FOOL.
Great, so there's a 3rd reason to be voting him.

[Sundy]

Distraction: I am finding it extremely difficult to motivate myself to scum-hunt or even post with xvart still alive. I don't know why. I just am. Seriously, it feels like trying to read with a screaming baby in the room, I'm talking about that level of distraction and I do not know the fuck why it's happening, it just is.

Dude this is not a very easy opinion to deal with.

I think what Xvart said about not running another person up to a claim makes some sense. If Xvart does get lynched, his flip will tell us a lot about alignment. I would rather vote for Monk. So let's start moving to one of these wagons.

unvote

[Sundy]

I'm going to bed, I'll be briefly online again in about 10 hours, and then gone until right before deadline. I will hammer xvart if we're in danger of a no-lynch, or if Monk or TheFool doesn't take off.

vote: monk

[Sundy]

sundy why monk over thefool?

I don't know. Monk & TheFool are pretty much tied in my mind. Although honestly I really am thinking Panzer (especially after the concise restatement of the case by Xvart), and I don't understand why we aren't considering lynching the mason claims considering his reaction to SK.

Mod, when is the deadline?

[Sundy]

do it at the beginning of a line

[Sundy]

Dude it was totally not cool to stop us from lynching last night
Now we're gonna have the same problems

[Sundy]

yeah but a few people said they'd switch over our votes to not end up with a no-lynch and thus get more information

ANYWAY WHAT'S DONE IS DONE

[Sundy]

vote: Thomith

Masons don't turn up guilty on a cop investigation, do they?

[Sundy]

vote: Panzer

woo-hoo, I've been waiting for this since my first vote

[Sundy]

woohoo good game guys

the mason claim is really what ended it so fast

[Sundy]

Tspoon I want to play another game where we're on the same team. Any faction will do