Lemming Mafia - Mini 1196

[mikemike778]

\Confirm ... couldn't not sign up to this with my avatar

[mikemike778]

Pick Limo

[mikemike778]

What we could do is have the second leading wagon (aka scummy enough to be a viable lynch the next day) to pick the 'crap role' the next day if they are alive. That doesn't mean we have to lynch them that day, but they are more likely to be lynched than other players.

Yep, sounds like the best way of making this work, have to see how it all works out in practice - if there is any really crappy missons probably worth declaring them and then we can figure out what if anything to do with them.

VOTE: PeregrineV

No objections to people voting to push the picking process forward now but to say you are going to do it indefinitely is getting your excuses in for not making a proper vote later on.

[mikemike778]

I don't like mike's vote because I don't see anyone else (besides animephorv who's an outlier for every purpose)

sheeping Chuji's point against Peregrine

. Seriously, mike, it does not look like a serious thing to me

So it would be OK if everyone else was going to sheep it would it ???

We might end with half the day being taken up by the mission picking and not just Day 1 ... sitting on the fence indefinitely voting for whoever's up next to pick is going to be pretty useless for finding scum. And a pretty good place for scum to hide.

[mikemike778]

I am fine with the CK's plan so long as everyone agrees not to pick a mission.

Fine as long as we don't faff about too much as its 2 week deadlines after Day 1. Anyone with a crappy mission needs to declare it within 24 hours (48 ?) of start of day if we are going to go through with this or its just going to get messy.

[mikemike778]

I have a tendency to get fiery at those who may target me, and if it's a strong fire I feel, I feel it's good to grant insurance that it's nothing personal.

Are you expecting me to target you then ? Why ?

[mikemike778]

I was thinking an attack on Peregrine might jive with a motivation to attack me, because I know that my statements could be construed as defending him for an ulterior dark reason.

So ....

You attacked me because you thought I was going to attack you for defending Peregrine which you were about to do. And then said sorry
Blimey.

Anyways, I just don't see scum posting this kind of crap - not this early on so I'm not joining this wagon. Peregine is a better vote.

[mikemike778]

Unvote.
Vote: Forest_air

FoS: Mikemike

Never made a Random vote to start the day. Why is that?

I will agree that Peregrine's play is anti-town at least. Start participating and contributing.

Since I've never played with a "role selection" mechanic, you'll understand if I insist you go into deep detail about how my play is anti-town.

@Mod- I think you mean July 14 instead of June 14?

????

My first post was my confirm post. You didn't random vote on your confirm post either are you going to FOS yourself as well ? Next time I logged on, I made a proper vote. Proper vote > Random vote.

Your play is anti-town because the vote is useless, it tell us sod all about anything.

Forest hasn't logged in since friday so its not helping to pressure her to pick. If anyone holds the game up by logging in and not picking then we wagon them.

The role selection thing can go on for a decent % of the game - every day. If everyone does what you do and just votes for whoever is next to pick then we are kippered.

[mikemike778]

What do you think of the current cases? Are they any good? Does it feel like people have hit the mafia mother lode?

Well of the 3 active wagons ...

1. Tazaro - see post 137
2. PeregineV - see post 143
3. Forest - there is no case at this point
4. animorpherv1 - see below

I'm not liking animorpherv1's play so far particularly with him going on about the links to ongoing games. Yeah its pretty off doing that but its not scummy and considering policy lynching him for that seems an over-reaction.

[mikemike778]

Unvote.
Vote:sAbLLimINal

3. Forest - there is no case at this point

Then why are twistedspoon and Jedo voting him? You know why I did.

Are you suggesting there is a case here ? Other than a player who has been inactive for a few days not picking their card ? Because I can't see one. Or are you calling that a case ?

No response to my post = sadface = fuck you.

That's not very nice is it . Fuck you too

So why are you voting me then, how am I leaning scum ?

UNVOTE:

OK despite some dodgy posts, Peregine's still sticking to guns with the voting mission pickers after being hassled about it by pretty much everyone is actually a town-tell here. Taking this vote away for now.

VOTE: animorpherv1

[mikemike778]

If your going to Random vote for Random vote reasons, fine. Even weak ones, fine. But don't vote saying your case is good, and then try and back it up. That's not only scummy, but very anti-town.

And I had town points on you ... don't like this post though at all. Discouraging players to make and argue for their cases is not a good thing at all. If you want to play the sit-on-the-fence game then you play it but don't try and get everyone else to join in.

FOS - PeregrineV

[mikemike778]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?s ... or_id=9034

Guess Ani's lack of posts is down to not having time to log on to the site and not for example because he is scum who's pretty crappy attempt to policy lynch someone has just revealed his scumminess.

[mikemike778]

This game is not based on Lemming the video game.

Thats why I signed up what is it based on then ?

[mikemike778]

Don't have time to read past 3 pages.

Choose: Payoff

You probably missed people asking why you voted me then for no apparent reason. Or chose not to answer it. Anyways Ani looks scum to me so my vote is staying there.

[mikemike778]

I really hate it when votes are so dispersed. It's like, I'll stick my vote on this person, not talk about them a lot again, kthbye

Ani should have more votes ...

I dont see why it needs to be rephrased. Assuming you are scum, how would you go about playing your game? I play mafia with the assumption that Scum generally dont want to be noticed. You do this by attempting to look as towny as possible. How would you play your game so that attention is not drawn towards you yet make sure that you are active enough so people dont notice you for lurking?

Yeah but anyone who has played a few games knows that these days this is what people are looking for in scum - someone who doesn't want to be noticed. It makes sense that anyone who has played a few games may decide that the best way to go is to try and be noticed.

Read through the early pages re Ani - does look natural to anyone ??? Its just a total over-reaction to the whole linking to other games thing, it looks fake. If he was the kind of player who would go round throwing stuff at other players to try and get a reaction then OK I can buy that but then he buggers off and the best he can do is post a couple of nothing posts.

And hiding your status aint going to work if you are going to post about 1000 posts elsewhere, we know you are here !

[mikemike778]

Tazaro why get so jumpy at having inactives with votes on you ???

[mikemike778]

Having said that Me=W looking super defensive at the moment. ISO on him doesn't look great at all - why do you have a vote on an inactive slot by the way ? - what did they do to offend you ?

Is CryMeARiver ever going to answer why he voted for me ?

Keep changing my mind on PeregrineV, he's fallen off my scumlist for now

[mikemike778]

You know what; I am going to unvote from ani. I am assuming he showed flakeness with that vote, and sAb is seems more like one who made a real "convenient" vote on me that gives him an excuse to leave after parking it there.

UNVOTE

VOTE: sAb

So you are going with an OMGUS vote ? Don't think I've ever seen anyone this nervous about getting a few votes on them.

[mikemike778]

@Everyone- If the person you are lynching claims treestump (making them unlynchable, and their alignment is still unconfirmed), who would you switch your vote to?

Probably Me = Weird, maybe PeregrineV or one of the replacees to get them to post something useful. Probably not Taz although his phobia of votes on him is a bit weird.

Why am I being "super" defensive?

All of your recent posts have been defensively orientated and answering attacks on you - would you actually post anything if there wasn't a particular attack on yourself to defend ?

[mikemike778]

PF here. Well I played with animorph once before. We were a hydra and we were scum. I did most of the work and he lurked alot and got us a lot of flack when he did post. I still had alot of fun so i may hydra with him again sometime. Ani's lurking seems consistant with a possible scum ani but I seem to remember him trying harder to defend himself when he wasn't lurking. Saying all that happened was a crap case arose on him doesn't feel like ani scum so maybe his lurking is a symptom of some bad computer access. But I will ask him some questions to see what rational may be in his head. see if there can be any town logic to his actions or if he is just scum.

If we forget the lurking, how does his early play tie in what he was like in a hydra ? particularly re the policy lynch which like I said looked like a fake attempt to draw attention to himself and show 'he's not trying to fade into background'. Did he do this sort of thing then ?

Gut says Ani. Vote stays there.

[mikemike778]

Me =Weird says

Have you not read my attacks on forest and peregrine?

re Forest, I said recent posts that was ages ago.

re Peregrine, yes I saw that but again post 277 which I presume you were referring to is essentially you responding to an attack from Peregine on yourself as pretty much all your posts recently have been.

Apologies if the quote looks a bit crap, was faster to do a DIY quote

[mikemike778]

especially considering that there are some people who haven't been doing

anything.

Possible V/LA tomorrow.

This is true although would scum really do nothing ??? I don't think so - they are probably just inactive (other than Ani who has probs just realised he's given himself away and buggered off) not that that makes them town of course. I see players who only ever post to respond to stuff against them to be a scum-tell.

Tazaro - what happened to the paragraphs in 319 ??

[mikemike778]

Sorry for my absence guys. I missed you.

First of all:

Unvote

Second: This game just blows, it is driving me nuts!

Tazaro looks town to me. He contributes to the game and gives ideas and scenarios, while most of us are just not posting content or not posting at all. I lean to agree with what he says on #310. We still have plenty of time too see more of him, but for now I think PeregrineV is our best lynch for today, based on his "windy" votes and on the general activity of the game, that might allow scum to "pass by".
On this moment, the deadline may become an issue, with half of the players being prodded, we might not have enough players to make a lynch. That makes me think that the best move is to put PeregrineV at L-2 (by my calculations).

Vote: PeregrineV

Still a week till the deadline , no need to put someone at L2 just because we are running out time. That sounds like a cop out. Where have you been anyway and what is a windy vote ?

You say

"and on the general activity of the game, that might allow scum to "pass by".

PeregrineV doesn't strike me scum trying to sneak through the game if thats what you are trying to get at. He has been scummy/pro-town at times but that's different so I don't get your point here.

[mikemike778]

When has he been pro-town? Everything I've seen has been null or scummy.

EBWOP -
typo, meant to say anti-town

Point being that yeah he has at times looked scummy and unhelpful but he's not looked to sneak through the game un-noticed so Mal's reasoning behind the vote doesn't make sense.

[mikemike778]

mikemike has said some things which caught my attention. This day has floundered like nobody's business, so putting PeregrineV at L-2 is in fact a reasonable thing to do. I'm not sure why you think it isn't reasonable. I'll ISO mikemike next time I'm on.

No objections to anyone putting PeregrineV at L2 if they think he is scummy or they think he is unhelpful - he has been anti-town plenty during the game.

I do have objections to someone putting him at L2 purely because there is 8 days left before the deadline and for no other reason. Its a cop-out.

Mike: For the actual number of posts he made I can remember remarkably little about what his actual opinion is. Also need to look at this in ISO.

I take it then you didn't bother to read my posts about Ani ...

[mikemike778]

UNVOTE:

OK I think Ani is/was scum but this isn't going anywhere and he's up for replacement so I'm switching to my number 2 scum read currently.

VOTE: malpascp

I really don't like his reasoning behind the vote. Not good enough - there's been enough posted around Pere to form a genuine opinion but instead he's just hopped on the wagon and hidden behind the 'not far from the deadline' justification. Have you even read the thread ?

[mikemike778]

So you still think that Ani was scum, hence that I am scum, and your reason is... "gut read"... But now, after also practically calling Per scum, you vote a lurker slot because "it isn't going anywhere"?

How is it a lurker slot ? And I explained my thoughts on Ani plenty earlier on in the game. But to answer your questions - yes I think Ani is scum and hence yes I think you are scum.

[mikemike778]

@Khan:

Why reveal your tactic now? Isn't Per still the leading waggon?

Aye, I was wondering this myself. Not posted much recently as I've not really had much to add. Not changed my mind on either Ani/you or Mal who are still my biggest scum-suspects.

Fine with a Pere lynch though and will hammer if ness.

[mikemike778]

People not voting for PeregrineV need to remind me of their reasons.

Few things really ... firstly the speed of the wagon on him seemed strange given the general pace that the game has gone, it seemed out of line with what has happened so far in this game.

Secondly when he got called for his anti-town play, he didn't back off from it. I'd expect a scum player to realise that strategy wasn't working and pander to the needs of what the masses want.

Thirdly, I guess there's also the case of too scummy to be scum. His whole approach looked to have bunged a bullesye on his head - which I don't see scum doing. There's not been any blending into the background.

Fourthly and probs most importantly, I'd rather lynch Ani or Mal.

[mikemike778]

mike- Why would you be fine with a Peregrine lynch today?

Despite the above, he has been scummy - we need a lynch today and his will give us a lot of information. Of the other options, Tazaro I have a town read on him so I'm not liking a lynch on him. Not sure on Me=W, don't like the fact he's been entirely reactive instead of pro-active in scum hunting but then I guess others would label the same on me.

[mikemike778]

Also, if each player currently voting could please state their case in bulleted points on their current lynch candiudate, using post links as backup, we can hash out some good info from day1.

Voting Mal

1. Vote on Pere on the grounds that we have 8 days to go before a lynch. Pathetic reason - jumping on the biggest wagon on the grounds of timescales when there was plenty of time left isn't good enough. Accountability.

2. Post 367 waffle about lurkers probably being scum. Well if you think that then damn well vote for them and try and get them to do something instead of hiding behind the reason above.

3. Contributed zilch else

[mikemike778]

It is time for the "If I have to, I wouldn't mind, etc." votes now.

Getting on a wagon for the sake of getting on wagon is not our necessary and proper business on day one.

Assuming you don't agree with a no lynch ... with 24 hours to go , getting on to a wagon for the sake of getting onto a wagon is necessary and proper business.

[mikemike778]

UNVOTE:

With no support for a Mal lynch. This vote is useless.

VOTE: PeregrineV

I have a town read on Taz so I'm not voting for him unlike Pere he has looked very pro-town in my eyes and of the two, Pere is a much better lynch. Think that puts Pere at L2.

[mikemike778]

UNVOTE:

With no support for a Mal lynch. This vote is useless.

VOTE: PeregrineV

I have a town read on Taz so I'm not voting for him unlike Pere he has looked very pro-town in my eyes and of the two, Pere is a much better lynch. Think that puts Pere at L2.

Actually, Mal was 3 votes away from a lynch, the same as me, until you moved your vote.

Please point out which of the 6 posts made by Mal gives him a town read.

If the vote counts are right (465) ... Mal had 1 vote (me) when I switched - hadn't seen your vote. Mal remains my number 1 choice and will switch back to him if there's a chance of a lynch tomorrow morning (UK tomorrow).

Dunno if the last bit was aimed at me I've never had Mal down as a town read.

[mikemike778]

Also point out how you believe Per is scum and more likely scum than Mal

Again if this is aimed at me I've already said I think Mal is the most likely to be scum, not just out of those two.

[mikemike778]

mike: pro-town, to me, would mean helpful. I am helpful? Or are you using a different definition. From what I read according to others' opinions, I am not responsible for whatever assumed-to-be-good directions we are going in.

Pro-town to me means doing things that will help town or look as if they are at the least intended to help town . As the most frequent poster, you have been driving activity and discussion in the game which is the opposite of what scum would want to happen. Especially in a game with lots of reps and lurkers.

You also don't seem to give a damn about what people may read into your posts and just post them anyway - this makes you look town to me.

[mikemike778]

Motion for players to consider: motion that we agree that the same people will pick the same missions as before if they are still available on the picking list. This is the best way to ensure that, if a roleblocker does not claim, he will remain with his role and use the information he already has from roleblocking some to try to figure out who to roleblock next

No a roleblocker should claim full stop. I actually think picking different cards might be better as there'll be a lot more information floating about that we can try and figure out come a mass claim at some point.

In fact, I prefer the motion to a roleblocker claim even if I am the roleblocker and am worried about claiming. (a) There might not be a roleblocker; (b) I might be the roleblocker; (c) we do not know the roleblocker's wishes about claiming.

No.

Losing a role blocker to a scum kill is no biggie, pros are way better than the cons with this. Seems a bizarre statement to me - why say this - scum will probably change the killer tomorrow if they have been roleblocked so the info might not be much use anyway if there is a roleblocker.

You've been role blocked haven't you ?

[mikemike778]

I have 8 games to keep up.

I am on MSN.

And I don't have to post when you want. I post when I have something to say. Also, I find scummy to inspect everyone's status. It is a fact that I was online, but it is absolutelly null. Despite that, you use it as reason to FoS me. If you find it so scummy, you could had placed a vote; it's not like I could get quickhammered or something.

My reason to be defensive: I am being (stupidly) acused. Or didn't you want an answer from me?

How is that scummy ????
Its information gathering. Lurking can be a scum sign - checking everyone's status can find active lurkers. How is doing this scummy ???

[mikemike778]

mike's question to me: That question better not be a role fish. If I say I do not know, then you know my role is vanilla. If I say yes, then you know my role is a power role. If I say no, then you know my role is a power role.

You weren't meant to answer ... it was an accusation (I think you've had your kill blocked and are trying to wriggle out of a RB claiming).

I'm sure any role blocker will happily answer for you if there is one.

[mikemike778]

The only way I could see him not voting is if he somehow thought further input from me would negate his thinking of me as that scum who did not succeed at killing.

Nope I'm waiting to see if a role blocker pops up and claims a block on you. Thought that much was pretty much obvious ...

If they do then yep I'll be very confident you are scum - if not then that's one theory out the window.

[mikemike778]

@mikemike778: According to you, you thought the theory is true. Why not assume it's untrue unless a roleblocker claims a block on me, which I know is certainly doubtful.

What are you waffling on about ? I'm not assuming anything.

You are getting very very jittery about this aren't you considering I've not even put a vote on you yet? Lets see what happens shall we.

[mikemike778]

I didn't like malp's 335. First off, he says that taz has been about the only one contributing, which was not true at all, and I remember times I've replaced in as scum and initially named one main town or scum read. Plus the whole thing about "only" a week til deadline.
Taz, can you please drop the thing about lemming pledge being vanilla. It isn't helpful and is just distracting. Also, are you seriously calling peregrine town because he's new and reminds you of wraith? I played in wraiths first game. He got modkilled, but if he hadn't, he would've gotten lynched anyway. He was scum. New doesn't mean town.

On another note, how am I lurker? I was contributing regularly until computer problems made me go V/LA. You bring attention to 943. I contributed as much or less in that game, though everybody else was just a lot less active. As for the other part, you hit the nail on the head. You knew I was town. Whether consciously or not, that influenced you.
Ironically, jilynne sounds over defensive when she asked how she was over defensive. And I'm just going to not respond to jilynne now, because it won't accomplish anything.

I'm voting peregrine for reasons later on.
Scumbuddies: malpasc, tazaro.

Alternate might actually be chuji, with the too townie thing. I wouldn't vote him til lylo though.
In response to your attack, the questions from 218 I asked for clarification on, which you conveniently ignored in 272, after which I answered. Which I never overreacted to. I didn't overreact to togtog either. It genuinely looked to me like he might not have wanted an answer and was attacking me. 296 was not an OMGUS. OMGUS is voting someone purely because they voted you. I voted you because of scumtasticness. Re 432, do you know what a FoS is? Finger of Suspicion. Meaning you suspect mike for it.

If I recall, much of the "cases" on me sound like "he's got a scum attitude!" So, when they drive home their cases with concise bullet points, we'll find out what the specifics are. Then we'll see if I can refute them.

You mean like this?

• Complete refusal to explain
  your own
  suspicions
  
• Strawmanning(ignoring the point and picking at one little thing)
  
• Ignoring my self-defense
  
• Asking distractingly irrelevant questions
  
• Overreactions
  
• Sarcasm and generally having an anti-town attitude.

Hope I didn't miss anything.
Oh yeah, here's a bonus about why malp is scum:
Scum read on malpasc. Reasons: Voted peregrine because deadline is too close, which looks like a lame excuse to vote a high bandwagon. Then he says that he has good reasons. I also really don't like how he keeps calling taz town just because he posts a lot. I also find it scummy how he points the finger at the lurkers. If he does flip scum, I'm going to look at the more active players. He also calls taz town because there are no links to anyone else, and it's way too early to look for connections.
Taz is situational, depending on other flips. He's more of a placeholder almost.

Me=Weird post from yesterday.

Why did you role-block Chuji ? Your top remaining scum reads were Mal and Tazaro ... doesn't make sense you went for Chuji above these two.

With the number of power roles that (may be) floating about, use of the role block by town is potentially counter-productive - using it on your 'alternative' on the grounds that he's 'too townie' looks bollocks to me. You've read the 'Role Blocker needs to claim' stuff and sensed an easy mis-lynch. A town Me=Weird role blocks Mal here.

VOTE: Me=Weird

[mikemike778]

My scum rankings so far are:

1. Me=W
as above

2. Mal

3. Oversoul - see below

4. Shadow - although I'm rethinking this. Ani looked scum, Shadow doesn't. Not sure where I stand on this one.

Tbc Tazaro - Looked Town Day 1 although the most jittery person under pressure like ever. Theory not looking quite so sound now.

Oversoul mainly because CMAR. Lurking is okay-ish well its not but its not the main reason for his suspectness. His putting off an explanation as to his vote on me is just wrong ... Even when replacing out, he would and should have put at least a sentence or something to justify it. Doesn't make any sense at all if he's town. Question avoidance is a big scum tell although I've not seen anyone trying and dodge their way out of it even whilst replacing out before.

[mikemike778]

Why is it terribad? Other people already asked for them. What do you want after all?

PS: you could have merged your two-word posts. Just saying.

It sounds like rolefishing in an attempt to out PR roles to the Mafia for the next night.

Sounds like rolefishing ????

Its the most blatant rolefishing I've ever seen.

OK so Me=W is scum number 1,
Mal looks a pretty clear scum number 2

[mikemike778]

Why is it terribad? Other people already asked for them. What do you want after all?

PS: you could have merged your two-word posts. Just saying.

It sounds like rolefishing in an attempt to out PR roles to the Mafia for the next night.

Sounds like rolefishing ????

Its the most blatant rolefishing I've ever seen.

OK so Me=W is scum number 1,
Mal looks a pretty clear scum number 2

Two scum claiming RB?! One of them CCing the other? Are you serious?

CCing?

Yes I'm serious.

Based on the cards they picked .... they could well both be role blockers and are just claiming what they've actually got.

[mikemike778]

Right- it's high risk, high reward. I used it on chuji because if he is scum, then he by far the most likely to submit a kill. Also, going into WIFOM-y territory here, but if I were scum and wanted an easy lynch, why would I have used it on chuji, instead of who you think I should've, mal?

Disagree.

Last few times I was scum (admittedly on another site but same theory should apply), scum would leave the townier looking players from doing the kill for the precise reason that they wouldn't want to put them in danger - they are the players most likely to win the game for scum and the worst players to endanger by doing the kill.

Using your role block on someone who looks town to you makes no sense to me at all.

It's already been stated I think, but saying again. My role-block would not have done anything to the neighborhood, as chuji didn't choose anyone, and it wasn't an active ability.

You didn't know this when you did your role block though did you unless I've missed something - (only had time to skim read the Overside-Chuji Mason thing - need to go through it again properly at the weekend) - so this in no way justifies your pick

Though this isn't necessarily scummy, you've left my town list. Seriously, 2 scum, both claiming rbs, one of whom is cc'ing the other.

So you think 2 players can't both be scum because they both claimed RB do you ? Complete and utter WIFOM and the fact you've actually mentioned it yourself highlights this - the two of you could have easily discussed it and figured lets both claim RB and whoever doesn't get lynched gets a free pass to the end of the game. Especially if the 2 of you are actually RB which is perfectly possible.

but if I were scum and wanted an easy lynch, why would I have used it on chuji, instead of who you think I should've, mal?

I've already said I think you are both scum

[mikemike778]

@Taz: Why are you claiming vanilla now and not before when others asked about vanila roles.

@Mal:

Why did you chose Taz as a target, he was your strongest D1 town read, it makes no sense at all.

This.

Although this might explain it.

mike's question to me: That question better not be a role fish. If I say I do not know, then you know my role is vanilla. If I say yes, then you know my role is a power role. If I say no, then you know my role is a power role.

You weren't meant to answer ... it was an accusation (I think you've had your kill blocked and are trying to wriggle out of a RB claiming).

I'm sure any role blocker will happily answer for you if there is one.

A scum player reading this probably sees a nice opportunity for a mislynch.

Slightly torn because Taz's reaction to my 'theory' about him being role blocked does reflect badly on him. On balance though this looks opportunistic scumplay from Mal. Especially given his play in day 1 and the way he jumped on the Pere wagon with zero justification. If scum, the gap between him claiming RB and then announcing his RB is probably him being indecisive about whether to go that direction or not and getting his story straight. A town player is more decisive here because they don't have to make anything up.

Taz is looking like flailing scum though ...

UNVOTE:

Intend to still vote Mal but more catching up needed.

We've now had 2 players claiming role block and then claiming they use it on someone they had previously got a town read on. I think they probably are both scum and probably are role both blockers.

[mikemike778]

I don't care what anyone thinks is a point against me. I have not seen malpascp explain a justification for why it would make sense to claim he targeted me. WHY?

That's a weak attempt to divert the attention. If we are going to pursue that, we can return to why Mew chose Chuji. At least you seemed scummy to a person or two yesterday.

Also, you didn't do the right thing. That's the point.

We should be persuing both of these.

In a game like this with potentially so many PR, you don't use a role block on someone you have a town read on.

[mikemike778]

@Lama

I agree with your declaring of a doc card, if its dissapeared. There is another possibility though that scum went for a WIFOM no-kill. Probably unlikely but if both Mal and Me=W were scum role blockers, it doesn't seem so unlikely.

[mikemike778]

I targeted Taz because I thought that if he was on the scumteam, they would choose him to do the kill.

He being VT this night only makes it more likely to him to have directed the NK, because scum wouldn't risk to get two of theis abilities blocked. farside's post about not being possible to scum to make the NK and their ability means that if Taz is scum, he directed the NK almost for sure. Since I targeted him, I think the odds of him being scum get somewhat off the charts.

@mike: I don't think a no-kill would be usefull to scum in the first night. They could be afraid of the existence of a Watcher of Tracker, but besides that, I guess scum made their kill.

Do you not think it would be better to target someone you did think was on the scum team ? Why did you think Taz would be the most likely to do a scumteam kill ?

Mike, do you suggest that both Mal and M=W decided to forfeit a scumkill to go into risky 1vs1s to frame Taz and Chuji?

Unlikely I guess but if they are both scum, its possible. If it did lead to a 2nd and 3rd mislynch it would probably leave them close to a win.

[mikemike778]

And if Tazaro flips scum, Malp is also not allowed to be RBed, but KK replacement is.

Hang on a minute ...

I thought Bookie and Payoff were unaffected by Role Blocks! At worst a RB on that card would back that up.

Remind me again why I can't role block Malp ...

Major FOS Lama

[mikemike778]

I skiped Mike's post.

I re-analyzed the game at night and I thought that scum would prefer Taz to direct their NK, as he was less likely to be blocked or investigated.

I choosed him because I had a weird gut scumread on him, and he was the scumiest from the "townish" group.

Why did you feel he was less likely to be blocked or investigated ? I'm still not buying this - you had a weird gut scumread on a player you previously was your biggest townread.

[mikemike778]

Remind me again why I can't role block Malp ...

Because if Tazaro is scum, Malp is town who RBed him N1. Why why why why why does malp-scum come in with a fake result that will get his partner lynched when someone else already claimed what is a pseudo-guilty?

Try again. If Tazaro is scum you can block the other RBer, M=W or KK replacement. If Tazaro is town its the RBers, nieghbors or KK (actually hydra too).

Best hope you aren't scum then as if you are then that it looks like they don't have to worry about their kill being blocked ...

You are a long way from confirmed town so you are not going to dictate who picks what and what they are going to do - if everyone wants me to pick from your little list and I end up with a RB then fine I will. Otherwise I'll RB whoever I want and I'll be announcing it tomorrow. Not today.

[mikemike778]

Also, whomever gets close to lynch should pick pier in order to get rid of that role and it will tell us if taz really was vt or not.

Agreed 100%

[mikemike778]

You are not making any sense. Since when is vigging kk part of the plan to find out if mal/mew were lying? And since when is blocking outside YOUR designated range grounds for a policy lynch? You've taken this very simply plan and warped it around your own reads and are basically trying to control all of the town. Screw that.

I suggest the two people with the roleblock abilities, roleblock the neighbors mal and mew (easier if whoever gets cement blocks mal and whoever gets cement mixer blocks mew). Then at day break, we know who lied. It also prevents those two from performing any night kill, thus narrowing the pool for trackers. It's simple, void of bias (unlike llama's has been going towards), and any vig abilities should kill whomever they wish

(though, I'd suggest not mal/mew tonight)

.

Now, any thoughts on who to lynch today? I'd say lynching taz based on mal's claims, before the plan happens, is wrong. Now, I support his lynch based on his scummy play D1 (though other head hasn't really weighed in yet). But lynching him because he could have been blocked just seems wrong when tomorrow we will know whether or not he was blocked or not.

Why ?

They have a neighbour card so we don't lose anything there. If Taz is lynched and flips town then any vig should definitely aim in that direction. If he flips scum then its up to the vig.

[mikemike778]

Are we going to allow cards to be picked before we hammer?

are we allowed to pick cards after the hammer ? presume not so yeah I think we start picking now.

[mikemike778]

Hi, I replaced in on the knowledge that would take a wee bit to catch up and I have to get my head round the rules (although farside has explained it well). If you want to summarise the game thus far, that would be good. I will be reading over as well. Thanks.

Pere lynched Day 1 - had a vanilla card

No Night Kill Day 1

Tazaro posts lots.

Me=W claims he blocked CK but gave crappy reason for why he did it

Mal claims he blocked Taz but gave crappy reason for why he did it.

Lama claimed the Fedora card would help scum and can't get in their hands - out of the game at the moment

Taz claimed tier Vanilla

Lama seems to think he's in charge

CK and Oversoul claim neignhbour forced upon them by the cards they picked.

Lots of people have been replaced

[mikemike778]

VOTE: malpascp

[mikemike778]

pick concrete mixer

[mikemike778]

Did malpascp ever address why it would make sense to believe HE would target me after day one?

Nope and not had a satisfactory reason from Me=W either.

[mikemike778]

@mike: Both stated a reason that was, in principle, a plausible one, but unlike Mal M=W's reaoning did not blatantly contradict his D1 reads.

So you think that role blocking someone because they are too towny is a plausible reason ?

[mikemike778]

@mike: I've already fully explained why I chose him. If that's not good enough for you, too bad.
I think what shadow's saying is that mine didn't contradict what I said D1. Because I had listed chuji as a suspect, but mal was stating taz as towniest.
mal, that sentence didn't make sense.

I know what Shadow is saying, doesn't mean I think its a plausible explanation. Anyway that's for another day.

Is the Taz lynch set in stone now ? What do the Taz voters think of Mal ?

[mikemike778]

I'm for a taz lynch. Mal, not so much.

We have a plan in place to tell if he is lying

. I don't see why people can't wait to lynch him.

Also, Oversoul, both taz and mal are at l-1 and you are voting Mew. Will you be willing to hammer?

No we don't.

We have a plan in place to find out if his card is a role blocker. I'm sure it is - scum would be daft to lie about that when they will be found out the next day. Same applies to Me=W.

If he did have a RB, it does not mean for a second, he (or Me=W) wasn't lying about who they role blocked and it doesn't in anyway suggest he (or Me=W) isn't scum.

As to why people are so keen to lynch - he is the scummiest player - his day 1 jump on the wagon, his day 2 role-fishing, his bollocks for a justification as to why he role blocked his town target, his lack of an answer to my questions in post 825. His declaration of a role block on Taz just looks opportunistic (following my earlier suggestion at the start of day 2 that Taz's answers sugggested he was a scum player role blocked).

[mikemike778]

Yeah, let's get Llama's conirmation plan behind us first...

@mike & over: Please claim whether your cards were role blocks and whether or how you used them.

Right.

First off to confirm, my card (Concrete Mixer) was a role blocker however there is a bit more to it than that and a bit more than Me=W let on (assuming that the mission hasn't changed from Night 1 to Night 2) - I am not prepared to say who I used it on for reasons that should be pretty obvious to Me=W.

If ness, I can expand a bit more on the 'bit more to it' bit.

[mikemike778]

Basically ... the card implies if Concrete Mixer is used on the same player it might kill them. How many times it needs to be used on them or the chance of it killing them isn't clear.

If its a 3 man scum team and scum get their hands on the card and know who to target then we are pretty much in Mylo.

[mikemike778]

Although Concrete Mixer does seem to have turned into Concrete ...

[mikemike778]

Also, how does a jackhammer make Mew town? It may just prove his role, flavor wise, but that doesn't mean he is town.

It basically confirms that there are 2 roleblockers if there needs to be an antiroleblocking role.

Just because he was a role blocker doesn't mean he is town ...

[mikemike778]

JJ
Mike
Oversoul

At least two scum in that trio, maybe three.

M=W and TOG are essentially confirmed town here. I really want to put malp in there but can't quite justify it, he doesn't get lynched today though.

How are M=W and TOG essentially considered town ?

[mikemike778]

Also, could everyone name their top two scum picks? Trying to read interactions before blowing the game away.

1. Malp
2. Me=W

Lama needs a ISO, there's been a number of times when his logic has just seemed weird and he looks to have way too much influence on the game. Malp really needs to be lynched today though.

[mikemike778]

Lets try answering this a new way.

Which one of those reads do you DISAGREE with and why?

I mean, sorta can see someone disagreing with M=W being obviously town, but zero clue how he isn't in a top three town read for someone. TOG I really can't see anyone doubting as town after his doc claim which makes SO much sense.

Votecounts say JJ is first scum though. Whoever is getting lynched gets the Jackhammer card. TGO gets fedora. Not sure on everything else yet.

I don't see any reason whatsoever to have Me=W as a town certainty. If you seriously think that the Doc claim gives TOG confirmed Town status then I'd love to play as scum against you some time.

JJ
I really want to put malp in there but can't quite justify it, he doesn't get lynched today though.

And this is just pure scummy. No less. Mal needs to be lynched today - he has been the scummiest player all game. To say

he doesn't get lynched today

is just weird. And then you go and put in the 'I really want to put malp in there' bollocks so if he is lynched and flips scum, you have a get out.

[mikemike778]

Votecounts say JJ is first scum though. Whoever is getting lynched gets the Jackhammer card. TGO gets fedora. Not sure on everything else yet.

Explain your vote count logic please. And you aren't in charge of choosing everyone's cards. Fact.

[mikemike778]

VOTE: malpascp

[mikemike778]

Anyway, I will reveal it now. My hunch is that if both of the roleblockers target the same person, that person will be killed.

That is why I have asked everyone to name their top 2 scum picks.

We will be lynching the first with the majority and then the roleblockers will kill the person with the second most. I would not mind a Mal>JtJ personally.

However, this plan will only work for one night as one of the roleblockers is most likely going to die.

Yeah its possible. In fact thinking about it, you might be right I assumed it was concrete on the same player in different nights but its probably concrete and cement at the same time.

If we go down this plan then whoever picks second last picks bookie or payoff - assuming they are going to co-operate.

[mikemike778]

So lets get this straight. We are on Day 3 with 40 pages of posts to analyse, multiple cards outed and you are basing your scum list pretty much entirely on the basis of "there's probably 2 scum on the day 1 wagon". And even then, Malp who has been the scummiest player by far and was on that wagon (so presumably should be flashing red lights at you) you have down as town. How does his roleplay make sense from a town point of view ??? Because he claimed to have blocked Taz ???

Sorry but this is looking complete and utter crap to me.

And why JJ as first pick ? Alphabetical order rule ?

[mikemike778]

Vote count:

Me=Weird (1) Oversoul
Tazaro (5) malpascp, Jedo the Jedi, Me=Weird, Chuji, Porochaz, Llamafluff
mikemike (1) Llamafluff
malpascp (4) Tazaro, mikemike778, TOGTFO, Shadow Dance

And if you are playing vote count analysis ... why ignore the Day 2 count (probably because you were on the Taz wagon I guess but I digress) . Oh look there's your friend Malp on there again lynching town and MeW (another of your confirmed town reads for no apparent reason) making a second appearance and CK. Fair enough JJ is on there who was on your hitlist.

Presumably you are expecting 2 scum on this wagon on this then as well. Using Lama logic, JJ is one of them so which of your other town reads is also on there ?

[mikemike778]

Second day which I haven't looked at centers around a counterwagon that did not exist the first day. If malp is scum, then yes, there probably are two scum on the Tazaro wagon. If not, then it easily could be just one.

Interestingly enough, that is a good votecount to show at LEAST one of you/shadow/oversoul are scum.

Instead of waffling on about vote counts* , any chance of you explaining this:

Votecounts say JJ is first scum though

OK, we've grasped that you think JJ is one of three who fit your VCA logic but why him first - alphabetical order rule.

And are you planning on explaining this ?

First, I want to put Malp in the town category. Second, I still don't love his gameplay, but I think his roleplay makes sense from a town standpoint.

* and anyone basing their entire case on the 'probably 2 scum on the wagon' logic raises red flags for me - scum know who is town and can manipulate how many scum are on each wagon so it suits them and their future 'cases'.

[mikemike778]

Vote JJ

@mike/Shadow - You do realize malp-scum means both of you are more likely than not town as it would mean hydra/JJ/oversoul group rounding out scum.

Must be a 4 man scum-team then mister Lama because you and Malp and scum-buddies.

[mikemike778]

EBWOP - misread Lama's post

[mikemike778]

After all that, you still haven't explained why you are voting JJ .... other than it works well in both groupings - probably should be a politician, you seem to really good at delivering speeches without actually answering the questions asked.

About the Creatures Doc save.

A lot of Day 2 was based around the role blocks and one of the reasons Taz was lynched was because it was assumed that the role blocks must have prevented the Night Kill. Why did TOG let this happen and this assumption stand ? Getting the lynch right is more important than keeping the identity of the card secret - especially in a game like this where there are so many powers which may or may not be about the next day. The vote count wasn't cut and dried day 2.

I think a Malp town flip renders this irrelevent, a scum flip doesn't.

[mikemike778]

Have Over and mike claimed their targets yet? If not I'd like them to do it now, it might clear some things up for me.

I targetted Malp last night.

And has this game stagnated for everyone?

Also, who is going to get Jackhammer, Cement, and Concrete Mixer?

The most towny people should get those 3 roles.

I role blocked MeW. If you think the game is stagnating, use your vote and get off the fence.

I believe that scum would be on the mal wagon yesterday, as a way to distance themselves from the taz lynch. That tells me that Mal is more likely town than scum. I don't see why Shadow doesn't see this, as I also have a gut town read on him from yesterday.

For roles, I think mike should get fedora. In fact, I think we can start picking roles sooner than later. Shadow should keep picking shooter, and the concrete mixer/cement should go to Mal and TOG. Everything else is more debatable.

OK so who are your scum reads ?

Why should Shadow keep picking Shooter? We don't really know anything about this card at the moment so if Shadow is scum he could potentially be either getting away with anything or keeping a useful card away from town. Time this card went elsewhere.

Llama is seeming suspicious because of the super weak case on me, especially considering his only defense is that it would be informative. I have news for you, Llama, we've lost too many people just to have a lynch for information. I definitely need more posting from Over as well so I can get some responses to this business.

ditto ... there's a lot of stuff from Lama I'm not agreeing with. My number 2 scumpick.

[mikemike778]

Well maybe looking at his iso he was just dense...

I'll take that as a compliment given the shit you've come out with in terms of logic.

[mikemike778]

WTF? Mike, why would you do that?

vote mike

General scum read on him throughout the game

First pick Malp was being blocked by Oversoul so couldn't go there

If he was scum then obvious choice for the Night Kill

If he was town then had a passive power so no risk of either lose town a useful power or information from use of his card.

Seemed pretty straight forward - why wouldn't I pick him ?

[mikemike778]

Was going to make some big case on JJ, then I realized its mostly a gut type thing that I have been having a hard time fleshing out.
.

Lol

Scum firstly refusing to answer questions and hoping no-one would notice then when being forced into answering coming out with a cop-out like that. Should have stuck with your refusing to answer the questions shouldn't you - would have been more convincing.

You are making this easy.

Lynch Malp today then if he flips scum, lynch Lama.

[mikemike778]

Game stagnation, so I'll do a list of 4. Random.org choose:

Jedo the Jedi
Llamafluff
Oversoul
me=weird

If you were alive with these four players, list 2-3 people as scum and why.

Of these 4,

Llama - discussed him plenty recently but fair to say he'd be one of the 2-3 people.

Me=W - dunno maybe I've missed something obvious but I don't see any reason why he should be considered town. Defensive play and reactionary play day 1, bizarre choice of role block, on both the wagons that led to town lynches. Still got a moderate scum read on him regardless of Llama's wailing and second on this list although not sure how well he fits with a Llama/Mal scum team - he doesn't really but can figure that out later.

Oversoul - been pretty much in the background, not much he can do about it but CMAR's play early doors is pretty incriminating, refusing to answer questions is my biggest scumtell and he (CMAR) did that as blatantly as I've ever seen anyone do (at least Llama had the decency to try and wriggle out of them).

Jedi - not really had any sort of read of him recently. If I'm right with Malp and Llama then at the risk of WIFOM here, it looks to risky for Llama to bus Jedi here. And if he was going to bus him to get some kind of town cred - then it'd have to be with some sort of case. So on that basis, he wouldn't make my list.

[mikemike778]

If he was scum then obvious choice for the Night Kill

Except I wouldn't be, because it was universally agreed the role-blocks go to me and mal.
Are you still going on about the role-block choice?

Night 2 when I went blocking.

EBWOP: About being on both town lynches, so was mal, chuji, and jedo.

I know - Malp is on my scum list, I've discussed Jedi. Unlike Lama I don't over-rely on VCA for my logic but it obviously has to be considered. Not sure about Chuji.

Seemed pretty straight forward - why wouldn't I pick him ?

It was known no one died N1, two RBs were claimed. One of the RBed player dies, other is alive. Now I don't know about you, but I was thinking "Oh, M=W must have blocked Hydra-scum", that means M=W is town and Hydra is scum.

You however didn't think this, which I don't get. There was no obvious doctor unless you were actually looking for one in which you would have probably found TOG. I mean, as bodyguard I probably would have been on M=W last night. After the doc claim he isnt QUITE as obviously town, but still, I call him town. You for whatever reason blocked him.

@hydra - I would vote oversoul out of that list today. After looking at JJ more thats all out of that list.

If you are town then your problem is you get too blinkered and think one thing, lock it down as fact and work on stuff from there. Gullible springs to mind. If scum you are incredibly dangerous given you are trying to wrap everyone round your finger ... tbf if you are scum and it works I'll be pretty impressed.

There were 12 players in the game most of which have some sort of non-vanilla role - the chances of not a single one having a protective element - virtually zero. Giving someone a guaranteed pass based on they claimed (unproven) a role block is pretty stupid really.

Not only that but if MeW was scum then how do we know he actually blocked the hydra anyway given his justification for doing so was bollocks ?

Fact is it was a zero risk move to block him - we lose nothing in terms of info or power and could have potentially gained a scum-find and blocked a kill. There's no other pick you could say that about other than Malp who is being blocked anyway.

[mikemike778]

Also there is his attack on ani for pushing on the ongoing game link, which sadly is very standard for ani. Then the back and forth on Peregrine really bugs me, especially since he eventually decides on Malp. However at deadline, he joins malp in voting Peregrine who he appeared to have a very slight town read on when there was no need to do such given deadline lynch rules.

I've never played with Ani before ... daft point.

Since when did I have a town read on Pere, are you making this up as you go along. Malp and Ani were my first choices but there was no support for them so instead of wasting my vote put it on Pere as he seemed more likely scum than Taz. Pere was always the likely lynch so if I was scum why would I put my name on the wagon for no good reason.

In fact ...

lets get this straight.

MeW blocks his town-read for no apparent reason
Lama decides he's town

Malp blocks his town-read for no apparent reason which leads to a mislynch
Lama decides he's town and we aren't mislynching (although seems to be bread crumbing a 'well I wasn't sure' comeback which has been noted and just confirms your scumminess if Malp flips scum)

I block my scum read
Lama decides I'm scum because I don't agree with him

Lama logic is just getting ridiculous, has to stop. And does anyone for a second buy the utter crap about his JJ vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Llama

[mikemike778]

But CK is lying ... no honestly he must be.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CK

[mikemike778]

[...]Either we believe Chuji's claim or not. Anyway, claimed cop result is claimed cop result. Our best move would be to lynch Mike today.

Also, I agree on Jedo being probtown. Scum would defenitivelly use the vig-shot. Unless it can be stored to the next night.

I confirmed that I gave a cop investigation to Chuji. Given that my role card PM did not mention any doubts about sanity and it is just a one shot I consider sanity a non-issue, too.

Boxes can be kept indefinitely until they are used up. I cannot tell whether they are used up in case of a role block. But given that Chuji was blocked on N1 and still could use the investigation on night 2 makes me think that blocked boxes are not used up.

Interesting ... sounds pretty useful this here shooter card, best make sure it goes to someone who can be trusted.

Pick Shooter

[mikemike778]

But CK is lying ... no honestly he must be.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CK

Weakest attempt ever at trying to save yourself.

[mikemike778]

But CK is lying ... no honestly he must be.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CK

Weakest attempt ever at trying to save yourself.

You fuck. God damn you for sabotaging the shooter role.

That's not very nice

[mikemike778]

Shame to waste that doctor box and that watch one as well, how's about I promise to give a box to who you lot want me to ? My way of saying sorry for that unfortunate accident last night ..

[mikemike778]

Heads off to get some popcorn ... this is going to be interesting.

[mikemike778]

You aren't going to help us out here and name your partners, mike? You know, looking at the overall situation it looks like you have no chance anyway, you could safe all us of some precious time.
.

That's 2 people now asking that now, do you lot trust me after now now ? How sweet ... or maybe the two of you are scummies in role-play mode, who knows ?

[mikemike778]

I am worried and purpose that a roleblocker block jedo if he continues to remain adamant with his CK kill.

you mean propose ?

[mikemike778]

That was fun to watch

Loved how town seriously thought I would pick jackhammer after the cop claim. Only way you were ever gonna get Shadow is if you got lucky with the Watch from Shooter so you weren't getting your hands on that.

[mikemike778]

Yeah the gambit was half unintended though as we meant to kill Chuji Night 1 in which case they never would have got the cop but the kill never went through. To be fair to Shadow though he originally wanted to give it to Town even without killing them.

[mikemike778]

nice friendly bookie/payoff chat N3

[mikemike778]

We also bussed on mike when he got lynched.

You bastards ... you got me lynched. Although I bussed both Malp and Ani/Shadow Day 1. Think town were the only ones not voting scum.