Mini 1198 - Marketplace Mafia - Game Over

[IceGuy]

/confirm

[IceGuy]

We should somehow coordinate our bids to not overbid ourselves. I propose claiming of what we're bidding on, so every ability is only bid on by one player. However, we should

not

claim how much we're bidding.

Random vote: VOTE: HellloooNewman

[IceGuy]

UNVOTE:

Enough random voting for now. Also, please stop pushing a MS lynch THAT early. The efficiency bonus isn't worth having no coherent strategy and no bidding possibilities.

these should all be claimed, as they are stronger in the hands of an unknown scum than in the hands of an unknown town.
The rest, should stay hush hush.

No, they shouldn't. I can imagine two situations for an important power, such as cop:
1. Everybody thinks somebody else has already bid, and nobody actually bids on it. While probably hilarious in hindsight, it would hamper us quite a bit.
2. Several people bid on it, everybody thinking he's overbidding scum, and we have to pay a fuckton of money although scum bid much less.

We should just try to win as many powers as possible and also give nobody more than one power (except for Last Will). Scum can only kill them off one at a time, and only if they win the night kill.

Also, people to claim those abilities will help us know who has what money.

Governor goes for $80? Then a town should finish the day on $19. But then that person claims the next day to buy something with $60... hang on.. etc

We don't know what starting capital and wages everybody has. It's only a sample PM in the first post, maybe some townies got PMs with different amounts?

- Forgot who brought I up, but a SK is highly unlikely in this setup. Considering he'd have to buy his kill and all.

I can imagine a kind of SK with a lot of money and maybe some special abilities. But it's not too likely in this setup.

- Random thought. Mass claim amount of starting cash?

Not now (too much information for scum, too little for town at this point), but we should definitely consider a starting capital/wage/transfers claim later on.

I have no opinion in regards to advertising. I mean, if you're considering putting money towards advertising, then I'm sure you have a reason to do so. My initial impression of it is that it does seem unnecessary because there are so many powers on the list already to choose from. But, you know, that's just me.

They might not be available next Day.

As Pere noted, there's a lot of information we can gather with this. Size of the scumteam. Funds of the scumteam. Whether there is a third-party role or not. etc.

This.

I don't mind doing something like this. Remember that scum can probably transfer funds between themselves though, so I doubt that we'll be able to pull this off. That being said, it will force to make a decision to drain a significant portion of their funds on it (keeping them from being as competitive elsewhere in the Marketplace).

+1 for vig vote. Even if the person who claims NK is scum, he can't use his NK other than we direct him to if he doesn't want to be exposed.

Also, with this being mini-theme, I doubt investing and grow your business are worth the risk, compared to getting good stuff day 1. What's everyone's stance on this?

I'm going to invest some money. Mostly because being a Cop on N1 is nice and all, but being one on N4 or N5 can win us the game.

[IceGuy]

Iceguy, did you even read which powers I was referring to by who should claim? Cop and Doc weren't on the list. Only ones that are stronger in the hands of scum.

I read it and explained why we should claim all powers, including Cop and Doc.

[IceGuy]

A 10 day lynch target should be set to attain a reasonable efficency bonus. Transfers should be publically announced before completion however the amount transfered can stay secret. Investment should be last resort and a player should bid all their funds on night-kill before investing. Advertising should be avoided for the early day phases of the game. Growing your business is overrated and shouldn't really be aimed at doing for any role in particular the exception being a cop who believes they're likely to be alive near the end game. Players should attempt to avoid openely claiming which bids are theirs this early on in the day as it gives mafia information to help amend their plans and plan their night kills however since Seacore has already claimed no one else should place a bid on Setup Information without openely stating suspicion towards Seacore.

Players shouldn't attempt to spread their bidding too thin and should set themselves a maxinum of two items to bid for. Cop, doctor, neighbourzier, setup information and night-kill should be what we ultimately aim for as they all provide the greatest benefit whereas Governor, Investigation Immunity, Extra vote and Vote nullifer should be considered aiming for soley to prevent mafia attaining them. Last will and oracle should not be aimed for as neither provide any real benefit for us or the scum. Whoever recieves nightkill should publically claim it and then a decision of whether we're vig-votting or not shall be made. Governor, Investigation Immunity, Setup Information, Extra Vote and Vote Nullifer should also consider open claiming when recieving the item.

Lynches should happen between day 10 and day 14. We should

not

lynch until we have both a reasonable lynch candidate and a strategy for the night. The efficiency bonus is not worth having no strategy for Night or a random lynch. Transfers should

not

be claimed unless specifically requested - it doesn't help us as much as scum to know who has more or less money. You should only bid (maximum amount) on NK if you have at least $100 and don't bid on anything else, otherwise invest everything you don't need. No advertising, at least for now. Cop, Extra Vote, Last Will, Neighborizer and Vote Nullifier should grow their business, as this abilities become more important every Day/Night. Players should claim what they're bidding on, and should not bid on more than one ability per day, except for Last Will, which should go to somebody with a high-risk town ability (cop or doc). Nobody should bid against a claimed town bid. No town member should bid on Governor to make sure a player saved from lynch is automatically outed as scum. If claimed town wins the NK auction, a vig vote shall be held.

[IceGuy]

Oops. I fail at c&p.

I'm going to try something risky.
I'm the guy who has bid $41 dollars on the Set Up info.

You should

not

claim how much you have bid! Now scum knows they can safely win this by bidding $42. (Although it probably doesn't matter for Setup Info.)

Claiming the amounts theat everyone has bidded on every item is sub-optimal and should be avoided until later in the game as it gives mafia a list of players to night kill however I have no problem with the list that Seacore suggested claiming when they recieve the item or even when they have the leading bid as it gives us a chance to prevent town bidding wars.

~~

Seacore, has the leading bid on Setup Info for $41 therefore no one else should bid on that unless they have serious doubts on Seacores allignment which should be brought up in thread.

Agree.

[IceGuy]

Transfer of funds don't actually occur until the next day therefore there's minimal town motivation to transfer funds at this point in the game so any transfer of funds done by town need to be stated openely in the thread sooner rather than later.

Bad idea. Then scum knows/can estimate how high the town bids are.

I don't understand how you can believe that players claiming on everything they bid on would be optimal, them doing so literally tells mafia who holds the cop and doctor power which they will proceed to kill straight away if they recieve night kill.

That's why the Doc should protect the Cop and the Cop should have Last Will.

[IceGuy]

So the doctor can get shot night one and the cop night two?

Only if scum manages to win the NK both nights. And none of them has Last Will. And if they survive to D3, it doesn't matter anyway because they've used up their shots, if they don't Grow Their Business as you propose.

IceGuy, you get that my bid is published, right? Magua posts tables of them...

Maximum bids function like eBay -- the current bid will always be $1 more than the second highest bid, or, to put it another way, if you are winning the auction, you are always bidding the minimum amount required to do so. If another player bids higher than the current bid, but less than or equal to your maximum bid, you will remain the highest bidder and the current bid will be raised appropriately.

We don't know the highest bid, we know the second highest bid.

[IceGuy]

Cop, Extra Vote, Last Will, Neighborizer and Vote Nullifier should grow their business, as this abilities become more important every Day/Night.

I understand the logic behind this, but I don't really agree with it. Especially in this sort of setup with limited use powers. The cop can make 2 quick investigations and then claim them with no real drawback. An extra investigation is nice, but it's not very useful if they're dead.

Don't forget we aren't guaranteed to have Cop powers at auction at any time. This could literally be the last time Cop powers are auctioned off.

2. If the cop claims, what makes you so sure the scum don't have the doctor? If scum do, nobody would be the wiser, since nobody knows who actually has the doc.

If the doc doesn't die and doesn't protect the cop, we've got confirmed scum.

Furthermore, if there are 3 scum, any 3 items can be scums. Or scum could just bid on 2, and the third guy save his money for tomorrow.

Also what part of 3 scum can pick any 3 abilites do you not understand?

Why shouldn't scum be able to bid on more than one item per person? I'm almost tempted to vote for you since you seem to be that certain what scum can and can't do.

IceGuy: the Governor particullarity you mentioned is awesome, but only if everyone sticks to that plan. Also, scum may immunize a townie to make him being linched next day.

Yeah, but it costs them a mislynch.

[IceGuy]

And how will you know who the doc is? You think scum would automatically claim they have the doc?

I was referring to the specific case where (yet unknown) scum claims doc.

Read it again, and you will find that is exactly what I am saying. And yes my sources are from the front page.

So, where on the front page does it say that scum can't bid for more than one item at a time?

And if you really think I am scum, why aren't you voting me? What is holding you back? Or is this some post that you can point back to, after trying to outbid me?

I'll wait for your reaction to this post.

Imo the double vote is scum motivated. Because it will be shown as a ???, which means scum can put it anywhere, and nobody knows who is moving it.

Claiming should help.

[IceGuy]

Crap, how much longer until we start eating at our bonus? I'm sorry that I've been away.

We already are. Every day we lose $5.

1 - Bulletproof x2
2 - Ability to be the only one who knows what the current bid is for all the auctions. It will be hidden from everyone else. But the high bidder will know if they are the high bidder x1
3 - Ability to know how much money someone has at the start of next night phase x3
4 - Watcher x1

Since every death and every advertisement delays an ability for a day, Bulletproof is off the table till D3. When we lynch someone, #2 will be delayed. If there is an NK, #3 is delayed, and so on through the 4 numbered abilities.

I don't get that. Is a delayed ability guaranteed to not appear on D3, but only on D4?

[IceGuy]

My thoughts on the abilities:
- Auction Detective: Great scumhunting tool, need to buy.
- Commuter: Not as useless as you make it, at least in conjunction with another power role. Could function as a sort of "life insurance" for outed power roles.
- Doctor: Meh. I'd only bid on it if we need two outed power roles protected or if there is an obvious NK target we need to protect.
- Love Potion and Medium: Useless.
- Night kill: Need to buy.
- Ninja: Extremely powerful in the hands of scum, useless for us. We definitely need to bid on it.
- Roleblocker: Powerful in the hands of scum if we have outed NK, Trackers or Watchers, otherwise pretty useless for everybody. I would only bid on it if there is a real chance at least two of NK, Tracker and Watcher go to outed town.
- Tracker and Watcher: Weak investigative roles, but useful for both scum and us. Watcher is a bit stronger.

[IceGuy]

Also, if I were scum, why the hell would I have said anything at all?!?

Because the "Auction Detective" ability would've made it known anyway.

[IceGuy]

Starting cash = $100.
Win of bid on oracle = $20 + $1 transaction fee. Remaining funds = $79.
Penalty for not having highest bid = $2. Remaining funds = $77.
Investment = $50. Remaining funds = $27.
Day two started and wage recievement = $90. Remaining funds = $117.
Bid on nightkill = $116 + $1 penatly fee. Remaning funds = $116
Recievement of investment = $75. Remaining funds = $191
Bid on nightkill = $190 + $1 fee.

It all adds up.

It adds up much better this way:
Starting cash: $125. (Scum likely gets more money than town.)
Won bid on Oracle for $20, fee: $1, remaining funds: $104. (He reasons that Oracle will go relatively cheap and allows him to earn town brownie points. Is also useful to scum.)
Other bids: $3, remaining funds: $101. (Maybe Cop or some other abilities where he got overbid.)
Bid on NK for $100, fee: $1, remaining funds: $100. (Thinks that he can safely overbid town because all they've got is $100, which they can use to bid $99. But the kill goes to the other scum faction or a third-party role who had the same idea but earlier.)
Wage: $90, remaining funds: $190.
Bid on NK for $189, fee: $1, remaining funds: $188. (If the current bid is $190, the second highest bid is AT MOST $189.)

He's claiming NK because of Auction Detective (or rather because how he - and I - remembered it) and/or to have a plausible explanation why he isn't bidding on anything else.

Yeah, busted.

VOTE: Newman

[IceGuy]

Yeah, no. It is confirmed that he made two separate bids on NK,

No, it's not confirmed. He claimed it, and there is no way to prove his claim.

you've just attempted to construct an entire made up transaction record to place your vote on him without even mentioning that it takes him to L-2

It's not just "made up", it shows a plausible transaction record which fits the information we have from independent sources much better than Newman's own.

furthermore you've avoided discussing the lynch yesterday which you were not part of, the items up for auction today, the abilities won yesterday and much more.

My first post on this Day was a survey of the items up for auction.

There needs to be more votes on Icey.

I don't see any justification for your vote except that you're defending Newman at all costs and I'm one of his attackers.

[IceGuy]

No, it's not confirmed. He claimed it, and there is no way to prove his claim.

Wrong, it is confirmed in Post #207 by Hiphop. This post alone proves that your entire transaction record is completely implausible and therefore an attempt to create a scenario which never existed.

That just confirms that

somebody

bid this amount. Newman claimed it after hiphop's post.

[IceGuy]

EBWOP:

Your vote and incredibly opportunistic push on HN was just the final straw and solidified my suspicions of you. My vote was placed on you before you attempted to 'attack' HN so I'm unsure how you're attempting to link the two actions furthermore if I was attempting to just attack the people attacking HN I wouldn't have stated I had a town-read on Seacore and Hiphop the leading attacks of him in my previous post.

Well, both of them are pretty much conftown.

[IceGuy]

That just confirms that

somebody

bid this amount. Newman claimed it after hiphop's post.

I have no fucking clue what you're attempting to get at by stating this. We know that Hiphop stated he was going to bid on NK and therefore no one else should meaning if the person bidding against Hiphop wasn't Newman and was town they would have claimed by now and stated they did so. If the person bidding against Hiphop was mafia then Newman would be town because mafia wouldn't have a bidding war with themselves.

We know for sure there are more than two win conditions, which very likely means we either have two mafia factions or a mafia/SK setup. In such a setup, I don't see why one scum faction shouldn't overbid another.

[IceGuy]

Let me just make sure I understand what you're getting at here. You're stating that Mafia faction #1 bet $116 on the kill, was outbid by Hiphop for $117. Mafia faction #2 overbid to $189/$190 and was outbid by Hiphop for $190/$191 and then someone from mafia faction #2 claimed to have mafia faction #1's bid and all of this is more likely than Newman bidding $116 himself as town or mafia.

I'm saying: Somebody (likely scum) bet $116 and hiphop outbid him, bidding more than $189. Afterwards, Newman tried to outbid them both by bidding $189, but fails, because hiphop already bet more.

[IceGuy]

EBWOP: bet -> bid

[IceGuy]

Vote - Iceguy

Obvious OMGUS is obvious.

[IceGuy]

So, I OMGUS'd the 3rd or 4th one on my wagon?

You OMGUS'd the only person on your wagon who isn't conftown.

[IceGuy]

Mal and Bobsnox are far from confirmed town or town at all. You continue to attempt to ignore the fact that my vote on you was placed before you began attacking HN and still somehow manage to continue pushing your flimsy and weak transaction accusation despite how obvious it is that it's incorrect.

Yeah, my post was a shot from the hip. What it actually boils down to: I attacked him after others attacked him (partly simply due to time zone differences), I voiced my suspicions and didn't just jump on the wagon, and I am not conftown. This makes me the primary target for scum trying to force a mislynch.

At this moment, neither you nor Newman have provided any explanations for my questions (why you voted me without a case, and why Newman claimed different bid amounts), instead preferring to attack me. Since I'm sure Newman will not be placed at L-1 or hammered before the mod's explanation, I believe my vote is currently in the right place.

P-Edit:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ethos
The mod's explanation satisfies me enough to move my vote. I'll still be watching you, though, and I will put my vote back on you if necessary. Ethos seems to be trying very hard to start a wagon on me without providing any justification.

[IceGuy]

Anyone has an idea of what this means?

I'm guessing at least one of the scum groups has an ability to finance itself by stealing. Note how the dollar amount is always equal to the highest bid.

This is a blatant lie, you haven't attempted to ask me a single question through our entire conversation and I outright challenge you to quote and provide them.

*facepalm*
When I point out that you don't have a justification for something, like I did in ISO 14 and 22, or when I say there is no plausible explanation (ISO 13), this means that I consider you scummy until you provide me with a justification/explanation, and you did not. Yes, it is not a "question" in the formal sense, but it boils down to the same.

[IceGuy]

Ummm.....learn to read? Here, I'll quote it for you!

Re: 189 vs. 190 - when I said 189 I was going off the top of my head, using the math that made sense. When you guys freaked out, I went through my pm's to get exact amounts.

So the number off the top of your head was "189", whereas the actual number was "190"? How did you arrive at that number?

And those were answered a long time ago as quoted in my previous post, you just attempted to find any form of reasoning to jump your vote over and ended up stating that two people didn't answer your "questions" which weren't really questions and were both responded to.

Then please provide me with a quote containing your justification for your vote in post #239 which does not exclusively refer to events after this post.

[IceGuy]

Avoidance of joining or commenting on the WLC wagon during and after it,

I didn't consider WLC scummy and so I didn't vote for him, and I also didn't consider him towny enough to defend him. He was pretty neutral to me and I focused mostly on mechanics, not expecting such a fast hammer.

your statement that you were going to invest on day one but no comment on what you plan on spend your funds on

Well, I invested all my money on Day 1, so I didn't bid on anything. I'll wait for Seacore's and hiphop's decisions for today, but I currently believe my best course of action is to again invest everything or at least a substantial portion of it.

I consider the recent events to be a confirmation of my scumread on Newman, so UNVOTE: . I won't put Newman on L-1 since Extra Vote is still unaccounted for.

[IceGuy]

Also- alarm bells did tingle my insides: but since I had no idea at the time, if it was another Townie that bid much smarter then me, like Bidding 99$ straight out instead of playing the poke-it-with-a-stick-and-see-if-moves game, or a scum who bid way more then that to get it right off, I couldn't know till later.

Midnight, could you post your exact bid amounts and responses (i.e. winning bid, outbid)?

I may be one of the most guilable people in the world but I believe Newmans explanation over the mix up and still consider him to be town but let this be a warning anyone that lies about their auctioning and bidding actions later in the game will be hung.

Chaos interrogation of Newman bringing up the fact that it was impossible to have the funds he was claiming to have reads as a solid town-tell.

I don't get what you're trying to say in the last sentence, but what makes Newman scum in my eyes are the inconsistencies. For instance, I can simply look through my PM box and simply copy&paste the nest egg, wage, bid amounts, investments, and balances, and it will all add up.

Newman made several SMALL mistakes (189 vs. 190, two invented bids) and claimed he deleted his PMs. Why should anybody delete PMs from an ongoing game, especially if they are important for bookkeeping? If he would be off by, say, $100, I would believe he's town who made a honest mistake (forgot to factor in a bid, or forgot his nest egg, or whatever). But being off by $1 or $2 isn't an honest mistake. Stuff like this happens when you're trying to construct a bid and investment history, and you forget to add a bid fee, or accidentally add in a fee for a bid you're not claiming.

Malpascp is town for this post, and people should be voting Ghostlin for this. There is MASSIVE scum intent behind it.

LLD, I don't see why Ghostlin is scummy; of course his cop claim does not absolutely confirm him as town, but nothing in his posts strikes me as scummy. Attacking the only outed power role with basically made-up reasons DOES strike me as scummy, though. And I this post doesn't make malpascp town. It's simply a nulltell for both.

[IceGuy]

Vig Voting and Vig direction allows the scum to manipulate the vig into killing town.

And it means that you can't read based on kills.

Reading kills is unreliable and pretty useless. Vig voting gives us a second lynch vote which we badly need, given the Newman and Midnight inconsistencies.

My strongest scum read is Icey by far, his actions throughout today have included obvious contradictions, changing of reads with minimal reasoning and insistence that Newman is scum when he was very quick to drop suspicion of Newman earlier in the day when the wagon seemed like it might die down.

I didn't drop suspicion of him. I just changed my vote because of your chainsaw defense of Newman, and because he had an explanation which seemed consistent at the time being.

I brought up my feelings on the lack of an SK twice, because it was brought up twice. I feel that an SK is unlikely due to the setup. An SK has an adherent disadvantage from the get go. He can't die and win (as town/scum can). He has to kill EVERYONE else. To offset that disadvantage, he gets unlimited NK's. If he has to bid every day for a NK, then his chances of winning become almost none (IMO).

Since somebody can steal money, maybe we have a "robber" who doesn't need to kill and/or survive, but simply amass a certain amount of money at some point.

If I get the kill, I am not killing newman. Catching up.

Because I don't think he is scum.

How can he NOT be scum? He invented a bid history and had to continuously change it so it fits the example PM, and then there's this:

Yes I lied. I have come clean about everything. The "deleting of mod PMs" was a part of my lie. I was frustrated at the time, yadda yadda.

If he lied about deleting mod PMs, why didn't he just get his bids, investments, etc. from them, at least after we called him out for his first lie? I already explained why his "mistakes" aren't honest mistakes.

Anyway, Newman is scum, Midnight is if he doesn't give a very good explanation, and at least one of LLD and Ethos is.

[IceGuy]

Vote: IceGuy

3 Posts to explain this read. If I'm not satisfied, I'll be driving your lynch today.

You replaced into a neutral-leaning-scum slot, immediately attacking a (almost) confirmed town power role with invented arguments and proclaim another, neutral-leaning-scum player, as town. Newman turns from neutral to scum in two posts without any other posts in between (#389 and #391), and you are against vig voting because you want to "read based on kills", which is pretty much impossible due to the WIFOM potential.

And your OMGUS vote in this post, of course, after the whole "let's kill the cop" scheme failed.

So, I OMGUS'd the 3rd or 4th one on my wagon?

You OMGUS'd the only person on your wagon who isn't conftown.

See, this is what I'm worried about.

Bobsnox (aka the person I replaced) was on the wagon at this time. Which is something Ethos so graciously pointed out for you in his next post.

You are effectively calling Bob confirmed town in this post. How does one go from "confirmed town" to "one of these two is scum"?

Read the post, like, two posts below that one. I corrected myself.

[IceGuy]

+1 scum points to IceGuy for the "OMGUS" routine.

This isn't about you calling ME scum in particular.

Then what is it about?

You are indicating a connection between myself and Ethos, in which one of us is scum.

How do you explain the connection?

I'm not indicating a connection between the two of you. I only think that at least one of you is scum. And I could see both of you being scum in different factions.

Also, please explain your behavior (attacking the cop and so on).

Further, OMGUS is a buzz word that scum uses to deflect town pressure back onto them. Sorry.

So...what would it be when I would vote you because of this post?

Also, your argument that NK analysis when the KILLER IS KNOWN is "WIFOM" only makes me feel worse about you.

Who says that the killer will be known? Scum can still snipe the NK...

Essenetially you're attempting to state that OMGUS is a scum-tell while committing it yourself.

I didn't OMGUS anybody. Newman and LLD voted me after I said "hey, you are scum because of <reasons>". I voted you when you kept defending Newman and attacking me on spurious grounds while simultaneously proclaiming others as town, and Newman made a post which seemed to clear up the inconsistencies, so you became my top scumread.

You also continue to ignore the fact that it's very obvious that no chainsaw defence occured but continue to attempt to use that as reasoning for your suspicions.

Again: yes, you were suspicious of me before I started being suspicious Newman, but your reason (given way after, by the way) for that was simply that I didn't do anything particularly towny on D1. You only went into full attack mode after I started pointing out flaws in Newman's claims, and you stayed with that although Newman basically claimed scum.

[IceGuy]

And Ethos, why the fuck are you asking me what powers the scum have?

I bid $97. Period. If it was won for $95, I should have gotten it.

This has the potential to be incredibly funny when the game is over, so...
Are you absolutely sure you/MS bid $97 BEFORE the deadline?

[IceGuy]

Okay, see, Ghostlin is confirmed scum to me, so he turbo bussed his buddy with the NK that quickly? Nahhhh.

Don't forget there are at least two scum factions.

Still,
VOTE: Ghostlin

The exchange between GreyICE and Ghostlin made me rethink my weak scumread, mostly based on lurking, on MS. GreyICE seems to be a genuine scumhunter, and Ghostlin's answer was terrible. I can imagine scum framing Ghostlin, but I doubt they let cop slip through for WIFOM reasons, so my bet is on Ghostlin-scum using some kind of bid manipulation ability he has.

It would also fit the theory of one "standard" mafia and a "robber" SK. If Ghostlin is the "robber" SK, he isn't interested in the NK - he doesn't need to kill, he just needs money, and Cop has the triple advantage of taking a powerful tool out of the hands of town, finding out who the mafia is, and appearing town by claiming cop.

And yes, my top scumread is still Newman. But since a Newman lynch doesn't seem to be possible today, and I still want at least a little efficiency bonus, I'm voting Ghostlin.

Seacore- I am not killing a null read. Period.

I would like to remind you of my post regarding Newman:

I don't get what you're trying to say in the last sentence, but what makes Newman scum in my eyes are the inconsistencies. For instance, I can simply look through my PM box and simply copy&paste the nest egg, wage, bid amounts, investments, and balances, and it will all add up.

Newman made several SMALL mistakes (189 vs. 190, two invented bids) and claimed he deleted his PMs. Why should anybody delete PMs from an ongoing game, especially if they are important for bookkeeping? If he would be off by, say, $100, I would believe he's town who made a honest mistake (forgot to factor in a bid, or forgot his nest egg, or whatever). But being off by $1 or $2 isn't an honest mistake. Stuff like this happens when you're trying to construct a bid and investment history, and you forget to add a bid fee, or accidentally add in a fee for a bid you're not claiming.

There is literally NO WAY Newman is town. You simply CAN'T make that many and that type of honest mistakes, and he actually admitted lying several times when his current lie became impossible to maintain. See ISOs #16, #23, #26, #32 through #37, #39, and #42.

Along the same lines, we might want to advertise shitty abilities that suck for the town in LyLo (Love Potion, Vote Nullifier, and Extra vote all stood out) early and then have the winner 'ground' them. Worst case, we'll know the scum spent lots of money to win, and also that they have the ability. Having a ninja 'Extra vote' or 'Love potion' pop up at the wrong time is bad news.

Unclaimed Love Potion and Vote Nullifier are worthless in LyLo, since they confirm the protected player as scum pretty much immediately. I agree with you on Extra Vote, since that can fuck town completely.

tl;dr: Ghostlin lynch, Newman NK.

[IceGuy]

What were the mafia thinking when they claimed scum to one another?

That;s what I WANNA KNOW.

Iceguy/Bob/WLC/Ghostlin lost this game for themselves >.>

And I want to know why the fuck you didn't read the scum QT when replacing in, spent the money earmarked for the NK on Auction Detective, and generally broke our strategy making a Cartel win practically impossible.