TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Leonshade]

/Confirm

[Leonshade]

Vote: David Xanatos

French people are harmless: check about every war they ever "fought" in.

Vote: Rodion

for not knowing his history.

No mass name-claiming, that would be absolutely pointless.

[Leonshade]

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

That's not what you said. Whether or not you meant that, it's not the message people got from your original post. Mafia's based on communication, saying one thing then claiming that you meant something different when called out on it makes it look like you're trying to give excuses for your behavior.

[Leonshade]

On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage), but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.

The original post for reference.

So yes, "speedlynch bad, fullclaim good" seems to be what you said there. "If you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim" does not fit, however. After all, the the two interpretations you've offered are directly contradictory; one implies that vezok should only be pressured to fullclaim (which is what you said), the other says that

if

vezok will be speedlynched, he should be forced to fullclaim first.

Of course, another question is why you would ever pressure someone to fullclaim if you're not planning on lynching them. That's not something you should do on D1 without some very special circumstances.

[Leonshade]

@ Leonshade: Is your Rodion vote random or (has it evolved into) a non-random vote?

Started as a random vote, but then others noticed him talking about pressuring vezok to fullclaim (which I missed the first time around) so I started liking my vote where it was. Now it seems like it might've been a misunderstanding, however, so I'm going to change my vote.

Unvote
Vote: Jilynne

Her defense of vezok is offputting.

[Leonshade]

I don't like Vifam trying to deflect the suspicion on him onto someone else, but I'm going to keep my vote on the Jilynne slot for now. Vifam has enough votes on him at the moment, and I want to keep a close eye on whoever will replace Jil.

[Leonshade]

I don't like Vifam trying to deflect the suspicion on him onto someone else, but I'm going to keep my vote on the Jilynne slot for now. Vifam has enough votes on him at the moment, and I want to keep a close eye on whoever will replace Jil.

Attempt to distance yourself from the bandwagon, noted.

VOTE: Leonshade

I'm not trying to distance myself from the bandwagon, I just want to stay on another one for now.

[Leonshade]

God damm it.


I'll defend myself later.

This is starting to become ridiculous.

Unvote
Vote: Vifam

Vifam seems to be avoiding questioning, and that combined with him trying to deflect suspicion is making him look like scum to me.

Vifam joined the Jil wagon early on, what are your feelings on this? And why do you think Jil is scummier than Vifam?

I don't think Vifam joining the Jil wagon early on is anything special, it was a viable wagon at a time when not much else was going on. As for Jil, me staying on that bandwagon was more because I felt that there were already a lot of people pressuring Vifam so I figured I could do more by pressuring and questioning another player. But since it looks like it might take a while to replace Jilynne, I don't see much reason to stay on that bandwagon.

[Leonshade]

I don't think Vifam joining the Jil wagon early on is anything special, it was a viable wagon at a time when not much else was going on. As for Jil, me staying on that bandwagon was more because I felt that there were already a lot of people pressuring Vifam so I figured I could do more by pressuring and questioning another player. But since it looks like it might take a while to replace Jilynne, I don't see much reason to stay on that bandwagon.

We cannot bandwagon more than one target at a time. That's simply not how the game works. Yes, other scum

do

exist, but your vote is your entire statement to the town. Either you feel Vifam is the most scummy and your vote belongs there, or you have doubts and you keep your vote on Jil and you tell us why you have doubts on the bandwagon. My question about Vifam joining the Jil wagon was more-so asking to detail, since you think both are pretty scummy, why Vifam would have voted for Jil? If you saw nothing out of the ordinary then why are you so convinced that Vifam is scum? Switching your vote to Vifam at this point seems only to appease the town, because I pointed out what was off about you. All your reasoning seems to be just repeating what everyone else has said. You're looking scummier and scummier to me, and I'm

very confident

my vote is placed where it ought to be.

I rarely have strong enough reads early on in D1 to consider one player scummier than another, so I consider my D1 vote to be a tool with which to pressure people. I now consider Vifam scummy enough for a vote, but at the time of my initial post suspecting him, I wanted to stay on Jil because I felt that there might be more to her/her player slot. A voice can easily drown out in a large crowd, so I was hoping to bring the town's attention to another possible scum instead of being just another vote on a bandwagon. Now I feel Vifam is scummy enough to merit a vote above everyone else, however.

Why would Vifam have voted for Jil? Early bussing is possible, as are multiple scum teams. I don't like to speculate on that this early on, though, which is why I don't consider it all that interesting at the moment. When I said I was nothing out of the ordinary, I was specifically referring to Vifam's vote on Jil, not on his other behavior.

There's nothing I can say to your comments about appeasing town, I can only hope that my actions will show that you're wrong.

Jil hasn't been replaced yet, right?

MOD: no, I have been having problems with finding replacements in games lately.

*gasp* JT! YOU'RE ALLIVE?!
*snicker*

You aren't voting for anyone and most of your posts have been either fluff or one-word answers to questions. Are you actually going to do anything in this game, other than answering "yes" to this question?

[Leonshade]

@leonshade: can I haz links to some of your other games pls?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14413
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14959

The first one is my very first game from a year ago, the second one is a game I had to replace out of early on. Other than those two, I don't have normal completed games to link to. I do have a few finished marathon games, which I will link to if requested.

(B) suggests that previously,

by itself

, Vifam's deflection of suspicion was not enough to convince Leonshade that Vifam was scum.

However, surely then, Leonshade's reason for not voting Vifam earlier would have been that (by itself) the deflection of suspicion was not enough to earn his vote. As we've seen [see (A)] that was NOT his reason for not voting Vifam, and herein lies the contradiction.

This would be a contradiction if me thinking that Vifam has enough votes was a viewpoint that existed in a vacuum, but it did not. I don't think that there's a limit to the number of votes any given player should have, I just felt that Vifam, at that moment, had enough votes. I later found him scummier, thus meriting more votes.

(C): When he tries to reconcile his earlier stance of not voting Vifam with his vote now, he uses the excuse that jily's slot is taking a while to get replaced. Which a reasonable justification for unvoting jily.

However, it is NOT a reasonable justification for voting Vifam, who has more votes than he did when Leonshade avoided voting Vifam before [see (A)]. Because that reason should still be valid for not voting Vifam.

Leonshade is trying to make it look like he had to choose between voting jily and Vifam, which of course is NOT the case. There are plenty of great people to vote (Pappums' list is good).

I could have voted for one of those people, but I saw no reason to vote for them over Vifam.

[Leonshade]

Anyways hello. Claim time right?

I'm town tracker, nice BW putting tracker at L-2 derp.

Why would you claim unprovoked?

[Leonshade]

L-2 is not L-1, but that's nitpicking I guess.

Unvote

[Leonshade]

There's nothing I can say to your comments about appeasing town, I can only hope that my actions will show that you're wrong.

- Scum uses manipulation and deceit to achieve their nefarious ends.

You're trying to sweep

me

and my accusations under the rug? This is red-light scum sirens flashing right here.

No, I'm stating a fact. The best I could have said to your accusation is "nuh-uh!", because there's no way for me to prove my motivations with words, only with actions.

This would be a contradiction if me thinking that Vifam has enough votes was a viewpoint that existed in a vacuum, but it did not. I don't think that there's a limit to the number of votes any given player should have, I just felt that Vifam, at that moment, had enough votes. I later found him scummier, thus meriting more votes.

I could have voted for one of those people, but I saw no reason to vote for them over Vifam.

- Scum try to look suspicious of someone that is in no danger of being lynched so they are uninvolved with the lynch of a townie.

AGAIN WITH THE NINJA MOVES. Meriting more votes? If I recall correctly..and I do. Back in #270 you said the reason why you were switching from Jil to Vifam was because it was taking awhile for Jil to be replaced. Now you're saying you switched it because you no longer felt Vifam had sufficient votes on him, as you did before when you kept your vote on Jil, and needed more. So which is it?

What is the bolded part even referring to? It seems to have nothing to do with the post you quoted. As for your question... those two things are not mutually exclusive. I unvoted Jil because it was taking a while for her to be replaced, and I voted Vifam for feeling that he was scummy enough to merit a vote.

My point is that I back up what I say with my reasoning and

my vote

. Like with Jil, like with DavidX, like with Vifam, whenever I said something I pushed the wagon. Something you've failed to do.

You failed at even appearing like you wanted Vifam lynched. Nowhere did you say you wanted him lynched.

You are too cowardly a mafia to try that.

I voted for Vifam when he was already at around L-4, wanting to lynch him seems to be kind of obvious at that point.

leon post 307 scum tell. no unvote?

I wanted a reaction from Junpei. I voted for him soon after, in the very next post in fact.

This would be a contradiction if me thinking that Vifam has enough votes was a viewpoint that existed in a vacuum, but it did not. I don't think that there's a limit to the number of votes any given player should have, I just felt that Vifam, at that moment, had enough votes. I later found him scummier, thus meriting more votes.

So basically this comes down to a subjective judgment about how many votes is appropriate? What changed to make you think more votes was appropriate?

I considered his stalling scummy enough to raise the bar.

L-2 is not L-1, but that's nitpicking I guess.

In fact I would argue you shouldn't claim until -1 AND someone has expressed willingness to hammer.

That was my initial thought, but Junpei's counterpoint made sense.

Now you could say I wasn't doing anything

helpful

(which would be an opinion), but I am still posting. That

IS

doing something.

I hope you feel like your bashing your head against a brick wall. That is totally what I am going for.

So why aren't you doing anything helpful? And why do you want to be annoying?

Vote: Zinger

Zinger's actively lurking and seems to be doing nothing to change that. Meransiel is similar, but while Mer acknowledges his active lurking and claims it's due to laziness, Zinger seems to be making some sort of attempt to look like he's not lurking. Both are anti-town, but Zinger is scummier.

[Leonshade]

I considered his stalling scummy enough to raise the bar.

Do you have any meta evidence for you taking into account wagon size as being somehow proportionate to your suspicion? It's an unusual way to play

I think I've explained myself poorly: When I said that Vifam has enough votes, I thought that Vifam and Jilynne were roughly as scummy, and that since Vifam already had a lot of votes, I might as well stay on Jilynne instead. Then quite a bit changed and Vifam was scummy enough that I could vote for him. The "enough votes" thing was a metaphor that got stretched out of proportion somewhere along the way.

Also, your second point against me was a contradiction you said I made. I provided a response to said contradiction in this post, what are your thoughts on my response?

21) Junpei - Vifam jumps on Rodion wagon after MoI brings up an iffy point in 81. Rodion is a newby that I have played with before and his logic doesn't always make sense. In 87 and 88 Vifam is strange and seems to be going back to discussion that is already over trying to look down. Attached to MoI again. 99 he jumps off the Rodion wagon once Pappums points out that Rodion is very new to MS. He has retracted from every path he has taken so far.. I don't like his posting. 115.. wagon hopping again. I am getting serious scum vibes from Vifam at this point. Gives a list with a lot of null reads. I don't like Vifam's play at all. 159 imo killed him. As others have pointed out he is trying to put another person up for lynch by saying the other person did more sheeping than I did. Looks like AtE. He replaces out as he tries to breathe life into another game. Ya.. as MoI pointed out, he promised a defense, and then gives us no reason why he is leaving this game.

I like Junpei's posting, but the only read I sort of agree on is Leonshade.
23) Leonshade - seems town from his posting, but he hasn't posted much.

The bolded parts are interesting, since Junpei has claimed to be suspicious of me, while you say I seem town. How can you agree on a read that you disagree with?

Zinger situation:

Now that Zinger has claimed an anti-town third party role, I'm comfortable with him being the lynch for the day.

@izakthegoomba:

Pinky made a case against you in this post, what are your thoughts on it?

[Leonshade]

Leon, I said "sort of agree on" and "seems". None of those imply a concrete agreement/read on you. Why are you trying to make it sound so?

I'm not trying to make it sound like anything. What is the part you sort of agree on?

Zinger situation:

Now that Zinger has claimed an anti-town third party role, I'm comfortable with him being the lynch for the day.

I did not claim an anti-town third party role. You are distorting the facts.

Refusal to acknowledge the facts means you are either an idiot or scum. Probably the later.

You're a jailkeeper that is not on the town's side, that sounds anti-town to me.

[Leonshade]

It was more of a message to Zlinger to straighten up and stop being such a 'dick' than an actual replacement request.

You're using requests to the mod to make a point?

[Leonshade]

@izakthegoomba:

I asked you a question in this post, would you mind answering it?

@zinger:

Now that you've lied about your claim at least once, I doubt I'll be moving my vote off you today.

[Leonshade]

@Silverdrummer:

Is there a reason you've been tunneling and advocating the lynch of a lurker all day? I don't think lurkers make for good D1 lynches, do you disagree? (Note that active lurkers are different from lurkers)

@ThreeIsFrench:

Which head made your latest post? Also, it seems that both heads are far more active in other games than your hydra is in this one, why is this?

[Leonshade]

@Leon (Post #820) - Don't you find it a little.. ironic that you're calling a Hydra out on being semi-inactive?

No, why would I? Both heads of the ThreeIsFrench hydra tend to be active in other games, yet they rarely post in this one. TIF's posts don't tend to have much content, either, and their latest posts have alternated between making a quick comment and explaining said comment when asked.

[Leonshade]

and tracker is very confirmable as the days go on (unlike what Zinger claimed).

That is not true. Jailkeeper can be easily confirmed (confirmable is not a word).

How could you easily confirm JK? A roleblocker could claim to be a JK and manage just fine, especially if they're scum.

I actually think Zinger's response to Pinky condemns him even more. He's obviously skimming at best.. this from someone claiming to want to help Town now.. :/

Actually, you are obviously skimming. You didn't take the time to understand my response before condemning me for it. What does that say about you?

Your response was to say that voting someone because they're V/LA is the worst vote ever, even though Pinky said the exact opposite. What else is there to understand?

Since all the cool kids are posting their suspects, I'll post a few reads of mine as well:

Zinger - My personal candidate for lynch of the Day. Claiming a third party role then switching to town when his self-proclaimed gambit blew up in his face. I can't trust him at all for the rest of this game.

silver - Somewhat scummy for his major tunneling on a lurker/personal grudge and for one of the hydra heads flaking after there was pressure on them.

@Silver:

It seems that your vote is based on that one post by Silver combined with his lack of productivity, is this true or is there more to your read?

ThreeIsFrench - Leaning scum for his active lurking early on, though he seems to be picking up in activity.

@ThreeIsFrench:

I would like you to give an explanation on your townreads, I want to know why you think they're town.

izakthegoomba - Slightly leaning scum based on his responses to the case against him (mainly on what appears to be selective quoting). There's also claims that he ignores most of what is going on, though I have yet to re-read to confirm this.

DavidXanatos - Null but requiring a re-read, his overall play hasn't seemed that scummy to me so far, though I don't like his attempt at rolefishing.

Everyone else is either null or town, I will post more reads if requested.

[Leonshade]

@CJ:

Is there a reason you're still posting in this thread? If you don't want to be a part of the game anymore, why are you still defending yourself here?

@David:

If MoI withholding said information is anti-town, why didn't you include it in the reads you posted earlier?

[Leonshade]

@Nero:

Silver made a good point about you not making much of a case on him, and your answer to that post was to... point out a mistake Silver made. What's your case on Silver and how do you feel about Silver's vote on you?

[Leonshade]

@Pappums:

3-2-1. I think Zinger was originally claiming his actual alignment (if not necessarily role) because he thought that would keep him safe from both scum and town. After a wagon on him formed, he claimed town in an attempt to stay alive. I could also see him doing a similar gambit as scum, though I consider it less plausible.

I don't think we're in a hurry to lynch anyone, this Day still seems pretty active to me.

[Leonshade]

@Everyone voting me:

will you pledge to eat your hat when I flip town? Kthxbai.

Are you attempting to dissuage people from voting for you with this? If so, it's not going to work.

[Leonshade]

We don't believe that Junpei's habitual extreme and disproportionate self-assurance is in any way a scumtell. We think he genuinely believes he's smarter than everyone else.

Who are you?

[Leonshade]

The Fonz replaces Crappy/Pvt Slate... Sorry, thought I posted that last night.

Isn't The Fonz already in this game as a hydra?

[Leonshade]

I want it to be on record that I think Junpei is Mafia-Aligned, and once I flip town tomorrow everyone should gang-rape him. kthxbai.

I'd like you to explain why you think Junpei is scum.

@Zinger:

If Junpei is wrong for being "allknowing" and incessantly insisting that you are scum, is ZeL1nk wrong for incessantly insisting that you are town?

I didn't notice that ZeL1nK was so incessantly insisting that I was town.

I believe he thinks I am town, but I do not think he is as '100% sure' as JLunpei seems to be about my scum status.

Well, he did call you an obvious mislynch. Do you consider Junpei's allegedly all-knowing behavior scummy? If so, do you consider Zel1nk's exclamation of you as an obvious mislynch scummy as well? If not, what is the difference between the two?

@ Leonshade:

Reads on izak and DavidX please.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3277111

I have yet to do the re-reads I mention, I will most likely do them during N1.

@shotty:

Are you still willing to hammer Zinger, or has seeing the town JK claim changed your mind?

[Leonshade]

@Zinger:

I'd like you to answer my questions in this post.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: silver

Could you explain your reasoning on this vote?

@Zel1nk:

Who did you target for the vig N1?

I'll also second the tracker report request.

Vote: Silver

for now, he's the second on my scumlist.

I have no sense of time, so I didn't do the re-reads on goomba and David I promised, I'll try to do them at some point.

[Leonshade]

@Pappum:

Silver was second after Zinger on the scumlist I posted back in D1, I worded that poorly.

[Leonshade]

I didn't vote silver because I thought that Z1 was scum.

What is this post in response to? I don't recall anyone asking why you didn't vote for Silver D1.

[Leonshade]

@DavidXanatos:

Why did you defend Junpei before he had a chance to defend himself? He's nowhere near a lynch and he is a capable player, so I see no reason for you to jump to his defense.

@shotty:

You don't have to wait for anyone to ask before you say things, I just wondered why you said that.

[Leonshade]

I was hoping to make a proper catch-up post today, but I'm feeling a bit sick so I'll just say the following:

-I need to iso andrew and Oversoul (the former for what seem to be dodgy posts, the latter for the points Rainbow about his lack of scumhunting and backing down under pressure)

-DavidX doesn't seem particularly scummy right now, so I'll indefinitely postpone my ISO on him. I'm also bumping him off my scumlist.

@Meransiel:

Could you link to any games where izak acts the way he's acting in this game? As of this moment all I'm seeing from him is active lurking and sheeping.

why is chk's scumminess being overlooked?

This is your first post about him, you should make a case on him if you think he's scummy.

MoI is not scum neither is Rainbow

try again.

You already responded to this post in a previous post, what was this post for?

[Leonshade]

I've sent the mod a request to replace me. I've had a hard time keeping up with this game, and were I not to replace out, I would probably just detract from the game with excessive lurking and unproductive prod-dodge posts. I'm sorry for sucking so much and I hope everyone has a good game.