Open 322: C9++ [Game Over - Scum Win]

[Amor]

Vote: bv310

Scruffy must die.

[Amor]

Y'all made a lot of posts, and I'm not really sure how many of them are serious right now.

I just unintentionally listed the reasons on why DonJosh is probably scum, and if you think I'm bussing fuck you.

This, however, seems overly defensive.

Unvote
Vote projectmatt

[Amor]

Unvote
Vote Honest Abel

Obsession with the set-up, calling out lurkers one RL day after the game has started, and conveniently agreeing with both of the leading wagons. What's not to like?

[Amor]

I only heard about this setup two days ago, and it seemed interesting to me. So I joined when I stumbled upon the replacement request.

It keeps evading me that the game only started yesterday (?), so sorry for asking for a prod and calling out lurkers. However, I think it's unwise to lynch before everyone has gotten a chance to contribute to the thread in some way. We do have four weeks per Day. I just read another C9++ game that was over in 9 pages, which is ridiculous, so maybe that's just how you guys play.

These are fair enough explanations, although it does make it seem like you're not paying enough attention.

What's convenient about agreeing with wagons? Both players have exhibited scummy behavior, and are actually the only people I think have done so thus far in the thread. projectmatt much moreso than DonJosh, but still. I could have shown up late as I did and disagreed with both wagons, sure, but the events of the thread would lead anyone to vote on one wagon or the other. I would have joined the projectmatt wagon if not for the fact that there are some non-contributors hanging out.

Wait, seriously? You're saying that it's not convenient and safe to head into a thread and say "I agree with what everyone else said" instead of coming up with an original thought or examining one of the other nine players in the game? And the whole "anyone else would do this" bit is both false and a cop-out.

Overall Abel's posts really strike me as trying too hard to be town. He tried to set himself up as the ur-townie when he came into the thread being all "you guys need to post bettar" and then posted a ton of irrelevant set-up stuff. And then there's stuff like this:

Now that your motives are a little clearer, I'm prepared to ascribe a temporary town read to you.

This is so qualified as to be completely meaningless. Is there any doubt that you would or could go back on being "prepared to ascribe a temporary town read" if necessary? Calling the read "temporary" is just adding in an escape clause for if the wind starts blowing in a different direction.

So I think HA is our best bet right now. I'd be willing to settle for a Matt lynch, but we still have lots of time before the deadline so we should look at some other players. Not really feeling the Josh wagon.

pedit: kcda, I guess I can see that. As I said above, Abel seems to be hedging his bets when it comes to Matt, and that could very well be interaction between buddies. Then again, it would also make sense if Matt is town too.

[Amor]

Man, you guys post a lot.

It is meaningless. Proclaiming town reads always are. Which is why there was nothing to my statement.

If it was meaningless, why say it?

The point of me calling the read "temporary" is that I'm prepared to move on to pressuring/questioning someone else in the interest of putting the focus on more than a single person in Day 1. Once what I think is a fair amount of discussion/contribution has occurred, I'll take into account what has happened in the Day and decide to vote. Most of the focus has been on projectmatt so far; I'm not unused to the focus being on me in Day 1 — it usually is because I post a lot and I try to get the most people interacting in the thread, which draws a lot of attention.

First off, the first few sentences set off my backtracking alarm. There's a huge difference between "I don't really have a read on you, but I'll move on to someone else" and a self-described "town erad". Also, the last sentence is basically "People are just attacking me because I'm so pro-town and active", which is ridiculous.

Maybe it sounds like I'm trying to tell people what to do too much and that I think I'm the shit, but I'd like to point out that I am quite humble about my scumhunting abilities and that I'm not often very accurate in my suspicions.

This isn't about your personal character or style, this is about whether you're scum or not, so this paragraph is pretty much useless other than the unintentional comedy of proclaiming yourself humble.

Also, as for your most recent posts -- don't use wiki tells. Just don't.

re: Matt's case: See, I look at Josh and I just see someone who's not too involved with the game and not taking it terribly seriously. Nothing inherently scummy about that, and Josh isn't even alone here. Still not seeing super-scum.

I really don't like zMuffin's list in #240. It's one of those posts that looks like it's a lot of content, but isn't, since it's just a list of every player in the game with mostly noncomittal reads attached to them. I have got my proverbial eye on you, Muffin Man.

[Amor]

Not really keen on voting bv310. Scum who are lurking as a strategy tend not to be so obvious about it.

At first I thought Abel's AtE was just that, but replacing out makes it look real, albeit a weird break from his super-logical persona. I can see scum crumbling like that as much as town, if not more, so my vote stays where it is.

@NobodySpecial: You show up again and make a couple posts only to pick on lurkers. What do you think of Abel, Matt, and Josh? (Jeez, it sounds like a Chritian rock band.) Any suspects who are actually posting?

[Amor]

Guys let's not lynch DonJosh.

[Amor]

ooo boy here we go...

i think its established that either PM or Josh is scum.

No, it's not. Why would you say something like this? And then immediately go off on another wagon?

amor... why?

Because Josh is an obvious mislynch, that's why. He's just the kind of lazy townie that scum try to push a lynch towards with authorative statements like the ones quoted above.

Also, I find it pretty convenient that you happen to wonder whether you were wrong about Josh right as he hits L-2.

One of kcda and NS is probably scum. NS has been scummier throughout the game, popping in instantly whenever he can post about something that isn't scumhunting, but kcdaspot's recent posts and interactions with NS are really skeevy. This deserves furter thought.

*wanders off stroking chin*

[Amor]

Would someone mind explaining the votes on me?

Josh's flip just further adds to my suspicion of Abel, or whoever ends up replacing him. Look at how he initially says he's suspicious of both Matt and Josh, then quickly pulls back on the Josh suspicion:

So it appears to me that the two scummiest (and indeed, only two scummy) of Day 1 are projectmatt and DonJosh (and not just because I can read the vote count). projectmatt being the far scummier of the two

Both players have exhibited scummy behavior, and are actually the only people I think have done so thus far in the thread. projectmatt much moreso than DonJosh, but still.

There's always that caveat there, that he suspects Matt more than Josh. I think this falls under the old tell about a vote and a FoS. Although Abel does neither in these posts, the intention is still there: "I suspect my buddy, but I suspect his counterwagon even more!"

In his next post he proceeds to soft-defending Josh by attacking Matt's case on him.

Based on that "wall," it seems like projectmatt finds DonJosh scummy for two reasons:

DonJosh forgot that there was a reroll (something NS also admitted)
DonJosh seemed overly defensive (something that projectmatt himself is more guilty of)

Based on what projectmatt has said and nothing else, I find a disparity between his weak suspicions of DonJosh and his confidence that DonJosh is scum. If we were to lynch DonJosh and he flips scum, projectmatt should definitely be the next move. My only concern is that DonJosh doesn't seem scummy enough to me to lynch at the moment.

This is a clear-cut case of defending someone while stating a token suspicion on them, which is clear scum-scum interaction. He's basically attacking the case against Josh and Matt is scummy for voting him, while hedging it in a language that tries to make it looks like he still suspects Josh. The last paragraph is extremely revealing. He sets up a chain lynch on Matt if Josh flips scum, despite saying that he doesn't really think Josh is scummy. Plan B is clearly taking shape here.

I'm assuming you're talking about DonJosh when you say "His reaction was panic"? Or Big Sleep? I can see that applying to DonJosh's reaction to the two-vote wagon. But since then, he hasn't been defending himself or panicking at all, it seems. Which is why I said earlier that it would be better to put more pressure on you guys.

At this point -- only one RL day since his post expressing suspicion of Josh -- he's full-on defending him. Buddylicious.

It's also worth noting that despite these suspicions Abel never voted for either one, instead eventually voting for DCJ (OMGUS, sort of) and bv310 (lurker vote).

tl;dr: Abel said he was suspicious of Josh but then proceeded to attack Matt a lot more and even defend Josh. This means they're scumbuddies.

Unvote
Vote HonestAbel

P. S.

Good job on lynching scum, everyone, will reread soon.

This looks fake as heck.

[Amor]

I'm still in this game, lol.

Responding to Amor, which is all I've really seen, I was not defending Josh at all. I never "pulled back" on my suspcicion of him, either. Saying that he wasn't panicking is not defending him. He merely had not posted enough for me to analyze his posts, or what posts he had were already analyzed. I said Josh was a good example of why we should be putting more actual pressure on people, because he wasn't posting in response to mere votes. projectmatt was posting a lot more, which is why he was easier to analyze and converse with.

Amor, you are really twisting things into the way you want to see them, or the way you want others to see them. Not digging it. Scummy.

Interesting that you couldn't be bothered to do anything but emoposting when we were close to a lynch, but you can pop in to defend yourself.

There's a big gap between someone who's one of your top two scumreads and someone who "hasn't posted enough to analyze". You're backtracking even in this post. And if someone says "I'm voting X because Y" and you say "X hasn't done Y at all" that's at the very least a soft defense. This is a lot scummier than outright defending someone is, because it tries to move votes off your partner while adding an air of plausible deniability.

You can flat-out deny you're doing this all you want, but the proof is in your posts. I'm not twisting anything.

NS is still goofing around, but that could be just playstyle. I'm guessing that the third scum (if there is one) is somewhere in the non-contributing trio of NS/Raaize/bv310.

[Amor]

Alright, this was like a couple pages ago but I should respond to this terribad post anyway.

I was accused of appealing to emotions, but I wasn't trying to and I had no reason to. Who was close to a lynch of whom when I appealed to emotions? I had two weak votes on me and the topic of conversation had already moved on from me by the time I decided this wasn't a good game to ask questions in. There was no pressure on me. Compare this to every other game I've played/am playing on this site where I get to L-1 on Day 1 and still am not affected by the pressure. I decided to request replacement because of the responses to my questions, not because I was under the enormous pressure of two votes, one of which was from RVS and the other of which is the result of tunneling.

Josh was close to a lynch then, and did in fact get lynched a day or two after you requested replacement. Also, you really shouldn't try to use both the meta defense and the newb defense. They're kind of mutually exclusive. So you're a newbie who doesn't know stuff, but you also have an established history of standing up to pressure?

There's a big gap between someone who's one of your top two scumreads and someone who "hasn't posted enough to analyze".

Wow, you simply cannot read. I never said he was one of my "top-two scumreads." I said that DonJosh and projectmatt were the

only

two people who had made what I thought were scummy posts.

Just look at that. Logic time: if you say only two people have acted scummy, then those people are your top two scumreads.

Just estimating, I would say DonJosh made like three posts and two of them looked scummy. And say projectmatt made like 30 posts and 20 of them looked scummy. Of course the focus is going to be on projectmatt in that situation, and I think it was for quite a while. You have to scumhunt the people who are around. If you look at Kcd's "pressure voting" on bv, you'll see that people who aren't here are just not going to be here. That's why my focus was on projectmatt to start with, and not DonJosh. Not once did I defend DonJosh, though. Can't you see that you are making stuff up?

That's a pretty questionable metric, seeing as how it punishes people for posting more, but I guess someone could believe it. But not someone who voted bv310 late Day 1. If you're saying that kcda's pressure vote there was useless, then you're admitting that you moved onto a useless vote. And a lot of your current case on Raaize is lack of content, which seems to go against this theory here.

You're backtracking even in this post. And if someone says "I'm voting X because Y" and you say "X hasn't done Y at all" that's at the very least a soft defense. This is a lot scummier than outright defending someone is, because it tries to move votes off your partner while adding an air of plausible deniability.

Who is my partner in this situation? When have I said someone hasn't done Y? I was the only person reluctant to say "X is town" in the first Day, because I consider it useless.

Your partner is DonJosh (which is, you know, the case I've been making on you all this day, so I don't know how you could be confused here) and you were denying that he was panicking, which was Matt's reason for suspicion. This was in post 155. You also said that Matt's reasons for voting Josh were bad in 151, which is another soft defense of him. Quit playing dumb.

At this point Abel's defense is just "Nuh uh!" even to simple factual statements (see the part about the top two townreads above). I also like how he admits he's trying to deflect onto NS in his next post (460).

shorthand reads evolved... my definition anyway.\

It's a type of logic that useally goes unquestioned especially when the player in question wiff the moonbeam logic looks town.

I saw a small towntell early (that i won't reveal for secret meta awesomesause sake) that become a huge towntell when he questioned his town read.

it's literally reading between the lines. if you can't do it yet someone who you have a town read on can, it's good idea to to look where he's looking. see if you can't get a glimpse of he sees. if you see SOMETHING along those lines the moonbeamer is prolly on the right track...

that's really the best i can explain it. you just have to find that sort of play elsewhere that is correct and deduce why it's correct.

This seems like a really longwinded way to say "gut".

kcda/Abel seems more emotionally driven than anything else, but I'll take any help I can get.

Sorry for all the quotes, but I really needed to highlight all the things that made me smack my head against a wall.

[Amor]

I have to read. You guys post too much. What's your rush, anyway, we've got A MONTH (almost).

Um, you do realize that this isn't like a school project where you leave everything to the last minute? This is a game we allegedly play for fun? Anyways, please catch up, because we could really use some more eyes on the game. It seems like half the town just isn't playing.

Main scum alarm on SGR: Changes his mind about Kcd's "three-scum mistake" being a scum slip to being a town mistake for no reason other than to appear at disagreement with DonJosh, while still saying that he would be fine to lynch Kcd just in case DonJosh succeeded in forming a bandwagon on Kcd.

Support points:

Posted several times only to avoid prod
Keeps promising in-depth discussion and never follows through
Certainty of DonJosh alignment too strong
"Good job on lynching scum" sounds untownly

This case actually isn't bad, even if it doesn't fit with your explanation above about "most scummy posts". The only point I strongly disagree with is your point about certainty. I think how confident you make yourself sound is just personal rhetorical style, not a tell. If anything scum are more likely to be hesitant, given that they want to give themselves a backdoor in case the wagon doesn't pan out.

Raaize, can you explain why you changed your mind about kcda's "slip"?

Abel, what do you think about NS? He also meets several of these points.

[Amor]

Yeah, I am really thinking Honest Abel is Town here, if I'm wrong, I'm gonna murder myself

SGR i have to agree with you despite everything but it's only slight.

Um... care to explain?

And the way you jumped on Kcd for the mishap on pgs. 13/14 (the thing I was just talking about with SGR) seemed like too easy of a thing to really jump on someone about.

Sure, you proved it afterward using logic and mathematics, but your intuitive impression was that there are definitely three scum. Whereas I don't think anyone else had that intuitive impression based on the setup. Unless somehow you are some kinda robot who understands statistics immediately how the rest of us know that bananas are yellow.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You're voting NS, at least in part, for how he jumped on kcda for his alleged scumslip. But at the same time you're implying with the above post that town wouldn't assume there'd be three scum. So is kcda's post a scumslip or not? There's really not a lot of middle ground here.

[Amor]

Did I imply that town wouldn't assume there'd be three scum? I said almost no player would assume there'd be three scum without calculating the statistics beforehand, which I don't think anyone did.

But those statements mean the same thing. If no player would assume it, then the only players who would automatically know it would be the scum in question. You're splitting imaginary hairs again.

It doesn't even look like Kcd did it beforehand, which makes his assumption stand out. Basically, nobody agreed with him until he whipped out the calculator to show people. But that's supporting his statement after the fact. There's also Muffin's point here:

Actually there are a few ways you could know it without being scum. But I wouldn't read too deeply into that being anything more than an assumption.

Basically, I can't tell whether Kcd slipped because he's scum or a special role, or whether it was just a mistake. I don't think anybody can, unless there's something I'm missing. It's weird, but it's not something I would decide his alignment on. NS attacking it despite the fact that it's not really consequential is scummy.

You're trying to play "find the middle ground" here when there's no middle ground to be had. If there's a possibility town would post the thing about three scum, then it's not a scumslip by definition, and it shouldn't be payed attention to much less dredged up a day later like you're doing. On the other hand, if you think there's no possibility of that, then you should absolutely be attacking kcda like NS did. Your attempt at moderation here is not logical scumhunting but just trying to look town.

By the way, Amor, what are your feelings on other players? You've been tunneling me since the beginning of the game, why not take a break?

I've been "tunneling" you because I don't want you to escape out of the spotlight do to things like DCJ imploding or whatever. I'm sure you're scum (omg certainty this means we're buddies) so why focus on looking for other scum when I only have one vote? With that said, I have been paying attention to the rest of the game, so here are the requested reads.

Nobody Special -- Typical no effort player, really. Null.
kcdaspot -- Town. I was just in a game where he was scum and he was a lot less active and forceful than he is right now.
don_johnson -- Suspiciously quiet. Has been attacking NS most of the game, then switched to DCJ for being rude or something. Went after josh pretty hard, to his credit. Would like to see him post more and comment on Abel.
SGRaaize -- Active lurking like fuck. The thing is, I can't really see him being scum with Josh and Abel. Uncertain.
izakthegoomba -- Just replaced in, but seems protown so far.
projectmatt -- Started out looking kind of scummy and overdefensive but has worked his way up to a null read in my eyes. I don't really buy the theory about him and Josh bussing each other.
Darkcoffeejazz -- I had a town read until he claimed under no real pressure, which really looks like scum with a gambit they were antsy to use. The self-vote and hissy fit could be fake. Leaning scum.

So, to recap: the third member of the scumteam (omg slip) is probably either don_johnson or DCJ. I would be willing to lynch either one if an Abel lynch is impossible today If I'm wrong about Abel (and I really don't think I am), I can see Raaize partnered with one of those two.

@kcdaspot -- Can you explain the sudden reversal in your reads?

[Amor]

This probably means nothing, but I just looked at the setup and figured out the odds of having two scum: 1/128. Seems small, but when you think about it, it's actually the highest odds out of any setup. There's a .5 chance of getting a T. There's a lot less chance of getting any other letter. So compare TTTTTTT (2 scum) to, say, TTTTTTD (3 scum and a doctor), and the comparison you're looking at is 1/128 to 1/640. Kcd's mathematics on the situation and the way everyone swallowed it was bugging me because it seemed like Ts are easier to get, and they are. I'm not particularly bothered to continue doing the math right now, but considering that only three of the remaining seven possibilities (T, TTT, TTTTT) allow for three scum, it's certain, and likely overwhelming, that the odds are in favor of us having two or four scum over having three scum.

Yeah, that may be more likely than any other single set-up, but it's vastly less likely than the total group of set-ups that have more than 2 scum. You're doing statistics wrong. And the fact that there was only one kill last night means we probably don't have a serial killer, so that increases the odds of a 3-man scum team.

Even ignoring this particular set-ups, mini normals generally have 3 scum, so it would be completely normal for town to think that way automatically. When it comes to scumslips the question to ask is simply "Is it possible that this person would post this if they were town?" and here I think the answer is definitely "Yes", no matter your attempts to muddy the issue.

It would help to know why he's so certain I'm scum that he won't say more than a single line about any other player. He's absolutely acting as though he's a cop and got a scum result on me.

amor needs to back off of able too.

I've been "tunneling" you because I don't want you to escape out of the spotlight do to things like DCJ imploding or whatever. I'm sure you're scum (omg certainty this means we're buddies) so why focus on looking for other scum when I only have one vote?

With that said/quoted, I seem to be the only person left on the Abel wagon, so it might be more productive to drop it at least for today. I've been debating about whether or not to hammer DCJ. On the one hand, his premature claim was extremely suspicious, and the rest of his play doesn't do much to mitigate that. But I'm also wary of lynching a claimed cop. If we're wrong about him being scum, then leaving him alive for a few more days will give us information we need, and if we're right then he'll get himself tangled up in fake results soon enough. What do you guys think?

[Amor]

This is the most useless post all game.

Sir, may I direct you to the post history of one Mr. Special?

[Amor]

moar people need to post in this game.

amor, abel, ns.

all off the day 1 scum wagon. at least one of these is likely scum. that is a good enough case to lynch any of them.

abel: i'm not reposting things for you. amor's points were more than enought o warrant a lynch. you were off the day 1 wagon. lynching outside of these three is unadvisable imo, though this whole dcj thing puts him in prime position. i'd rather lynch one of these three and give dcj a night to contribute.

projectmatt: where u at?

While I approve of your Abel-lynching plan, I wouldn't be too certain about this grouping. I can definitely see scum bussing Josh, especially given how sudden his lynch was.

I would be okay with a lynch on either Abel or Jazz at this point in time, preferrably the former.

EBWOP: I thought you meant you took our names off the D1 lynch wagon, but you actually meant that we weren't on it. I was going to say, at least I gave reasons for why DonJosh was scummy, whereas NS probably didn't and Amor was already hung up on me. But I was on bv310 when the day ended, so nevermind.

The fact that you declared suspicion of DonJosh while not voting him makes you more scummy, not less.

[Amor]

I thought I made it clear in #126 that I found both matt and Josh scummy, and then proceeded to focus on matt because he had been scummier and was posting more.

Also, just recalling that we've already talked about this in detail before, so Amor acting like I had no reason not to vote for DonJosh is nuts or purposely deceptive.

Fos: Amor

How's that? I'm starting to tire of this guy and think he's been a little overzealous about being on my case.

What? We did talk about this before, but that doesn't mean you convinced me of anything. You were the one who brought it back up as though your stated suspicions of Josh were a town tell, ignoring my entire point.

You keep accusing me of taking things out of context. Can you provide any specific examples? The fact that you were voting for Josh's counterwagon doesn't mean that you not voting Josh was okay, in fact it makes you look worse. You also voted two other people afterwards, and pressing need to lynch Matt didn't stop you then. I'm not taking things out of context, I'm just not buying into your BS post-hoc rationalizations.

I do feel like I should discuss other people some more, but sadly you seem to be the only one posting. I have no idea what I'd do if you were town.

[Amor]

This is the first time I've accused you of taking something out of context, I think. I've accused you of changing my wording around or arguing against me based on altered wording. I will give examples of that if it will suffice, but for now I have to make dinner.

Semantics. The point is you've said I've distorted your points a lot, and I don't think I have.

I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph there, though, so please explain it differently if you'd be so kind. I think voting for matt is just as much something a townie would do as voting for josh was, given matt was just as scummy or, in my opinion, scummier than josh.

Scum can make up whatever reads they want, but it's their actions you have to pay attention to, and your actions were in line with what scum would do to defend a buddy in that situation. This is basically the same point I made in my big case at the start of this day.

I think the problem here is that we have 4 people voting, all of whom seem to have made up their minds pretty firmly (except maybe NS), and then you not voting but still posting, and then four people who are all either away, catching up, or just mysteriously gone. It's hard to get anything done when half the players aren't here.

[Amor]

And now, quote pyramids.

What's convenient about agreeing with wagons?

You're saying that it's not convenient and safe to head into a thread and say "I agree with what everyone else said"

Nope, didn't say it's not convenient. I asked what was convenient because I didn't see what was about what

I

did. That said, I see how it could be a safe move to come in and agree with almost everyone in any general situation, but

I

didn't show up and just say "I agree with everyone." I gave my own reasons in #126, none of which had been brought up before except maybe the first, which hadn't been stated explicity.

Sorry, I had took "What's convenient about it?" as a rhetorical question. It just seems so obvious to me how sticking with established suspects would be a safe move that I'm really not sure why you would need it explained to you.

He tried to set himself up as the ur-townie when he came into the thread being all "you guys need to post bettar"

Exaggeration/strawman. I wasn't trying to set myself up as something, I was trying to set up a comprehensible game to play in. I didn't say I was better than anyone else, but something needed to be said eventually.

A bit exaggerated for effect, obviously, but that was definitely the tone of your first couple posts. I mean, this is your second thond post:

This is my first non-newbie game (even when I play on other sites, I play the newbie setups) so I thought the quality of posts would be a little higher. Maybe you're all just picking up on things that I'm not seeing, but when everyone posts such throwaway comments and short posts, it makes it hard to remember who's talking to whom, who's voting for whom, and whatever else kind of actions are going on in the thread. I could be wrong, but it seems to me like it would be more beneficial if we put a little more thought into each post. Please inform me if there's a reason short posts work better for town.

Why did that "need to be said"? It really just looks like you're scolding people for not posting walls.

[quote="Abel"[

I'm not unused to the focus being on me in Day 1 — it usually is because I post a lot and I try to get the most people interacting in the thread, which draws a lot of attention.

the last sentence is basically "People are just attacking me because I'm so pro-town and active", which is ridiculous.

Except I said it in the midst of nobody attacking me, except you, and you hadn't been too proactive about it at that point.[/quote]

Even so, it was definitely a pre-emptive move to ward off suspicion, and the idea that you would ever be voted just for being active and getting people to engage is laughable.

In his next post he proceeds to soft-defending Josh by attacking Matt's case on him.

Based on that "wall," it seems like projectmatt finds DonJosh scummy for two reasons:

DonJosh forgot that there was a reroll (something NS also admitted)
DonJosh seemed overly defensive (something that projectmatt himself is more guilty of)

Based on what projectmatt has said and nothing else, I find a disparity between his weak suspicions of DonJosh and his confidence that DonJosh is scum. If we were to lynch DonJosh and he flips scum, projectmatt should definitely be the next move. My only concern is that DonJosh doesn't seem scummy enough to me to lynch at the moment.

This is a clear-cut case of defending someone while stating a token suspicion on them, which is clear scum-scum interaction. He's basically attacking the case against Josh and Matt is scummy for voting him, while hedging it in a language that tries to make it looks like he still suspects Josh. The last paragraph is extremely revealing. He sets up a chain lynch on Matt if Josh flips scum, despite saying that he doesn't really think Josh is scummy.

You really go overboard here. Not once in that quote do I say Josh is not scummy. At the most I say Josh is as scummy as NS for one reason and that matt is scummier than Josh for the other reason. I was critiquing matt's weak line of reasoning. And his weak reasoning on Josh was not the only thing against him at the time.[/list]

This is a retread, but saying someone has no good reason for voting someone is effectively defending them. Also, at the end of the post you blatantly say that Josh isn't scummy enough to lynch. How is that not a defense?

I'm assuming you're talking about DonJosh when you say "His reaction was panic"? Or Big Sleep? I can see that applying to DonJosh's reaction to the two-vote wagon. But since then, he hasn't been defending himself or panicking at all, it seems. Which is why I said earlier that it would be better to put more pressure on you guys.

At this point -- only one RL day since his post expressing suspicion of Josh -- he's full-on defending him. Buddylicious.

Suggesting that we put more pressure on scummy behavior is defending him? Saying he's not defending himself and not panicking (which was really a reference to him not posting at all, because he hadn't been) was not a defense of him. If anything, it's a reason he was scummy.

if someone says "I'm voting X because Y" and you say "X hasn't done Y at all" that's at the very least a soft defense. This is a lot scummier than outright defending someone is, because it tries to move votes off your partner while adding an air of plausible deniability.

I simply have not done that (until this sentence ), yet you bank a case on it without example.

Erm, Matt said that Josh was scummy because he was panicking. You said that Josh wasn't panicking. These two posts pretty clearly show what you're full of.

Also found these gems in rereading Amor's posts. Talk about defending DonJosh:

Guys let's not lynch DonJosh.

Because Josh is an obvious mislynch, that's why. He's just the kind of lazy townie that scum try to push a lynch towards with authorative statements like the ones quoted above.

Also, I find it pretty convenient that you happen to wonder whether you were wrong about Josh right as he hits L-2.

Something to keep in mind for D3.

I thought Josh was town Day 1. I was wrong. But I put my read out there in the open and defended him, whereas you kept paying lip service to his scummitude while trying to redirect things to Matt and soft-defending him. I think the latter is far more scummy.

Also, in the last paragraph you're pretty clearly insinuating something abotu me, despite claiming you think I'm town later on.

Anyway, now that that nonsense is done with I've been thinking about the scum situation. Earlier I said that I had at least moderate scumreads on Abel, DCJ, DonJohnson and SGRaaize (although obviously not all of these can be scum). I've been thinking more since then and I've managed to narrow things down a bit.

First off, I think we can take Johnson off the table due to DCJ claiming an innocent result on him. If DCJ is scum there's no way he'd connect himself to his remaining partner so blatantly. If DCJ is town (he's not, but hypothetically speaking) then there actually is an innocent result on Johnson, and while there's a possibility of him being a godfather, I don't think it's terribly likely.

That leaves Abel, DCJ and SGR. I don't see Abel and SGR being scum together due to the way Abel tried to deflect on him earlier today. So that leaves two possible teams: Abel/DCJ and DCJ/SGR. While I think the former is a lot more likely, there's no denying that every scenario I think is possible involves Jazz being scum. That seems like a more effective place for my vote now anyway. So here's to L-1.

Unvote
Vote: DarkCoffeeJazz

[Amor]

Amor, points taken. I'm not going to keep going back and forth at this point, as my defense is clear and maybe so is your case. Anything you need me to address, let me know.

Fair enough. I think I've made a good case on you, although most of the town seems not to agree. I'll mention any new evidence as it comes up, but there's no point going back and forth on the same old crap.

amor's posts show some higher thought, but it doesn't change the fact that he was off the scum wagon on day 1. however, his points about abel make perfect sense. however,. instead of voting abel, he's voting the guy who claimed cop. why dcj first?

I'd prefer to lynch Abel right now, but it seems like everyone besides you and me thinks he's town. Since I also suspect DCJ, my vote is more effective on his wagon, which might actually result in a lynch.

The post this is from gives me townie vibes, which DJ hasn't really done up until now.

[Amor]

lol emovoting

People should also post quick reads/rankings before the day ends if possible.

More town toward the top, more scum toward the bottom. Above the first line is town, between the two lines is null, below the second line is scum:

Kcdaspot
Amor
————————
SGRaaize
izakthegoomba
don_johnson
————————
projectmatt
NS

Stuff like this just gives a guide to the scum as to who to kill.

[Amor]

Guys those turbolynches were AWFUL. I didn't even get a chance to post D3! And I told you Abel was scum.

Ah well. Good game, all.

[Amor]

I will admit I had no idea about Matt though.