C9++ Discussion

[yabbaguy]

I'm mostly sure this serves best as a separate thread.

First off, this is awesome how after enough petitioning, C9++ has finally gotten back in full swing and is starting to become a Central Park regular. Also, credit to Fiasco for even devising this setup in the first place - wish he was still on site. :\

The reason I'm bringing this up is if I wonder whether or not this setup can be improved somewhat. The basic principle is so brilliant - the more power Town gets, the more powerful scum get in response. However, there are some facets of the ruleset that are ambiguous or perhaps the subject of individual interpretation. However, I'm wondering if certain aspects can be polished up and whether or not certain idiosyncrasies about the setup are actually pivotal to the game's function.

Some of the talking points I wanted to bring up at least:

*Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?
*Inhibited Scum Reveal

(Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else)

- this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?
*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?
*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?
*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?
*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?
*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

Thoughts?

[yabbaguy]

Side-note: When's the last time mafia won a non-marathon C9++?

Pamplona with Nobody Special was a Maf win - and I think the first Mafia flip was blown in that game. That was a Town wreck that was pretty much all my fault.

Then I replaced out as Mafia in the other NS game (Paradise) where a Maf member was dispensed with N0. This sort of stuff shouldn't happen in my opinion - N0 shots shouldn't determine the game - the swing's too much. So I dig a Day Start.

Spy-Immune SK already has mod confirmed information about the setup (no VTs)

That's not right.

Insane should show the opposite. Godfather should not be penalized for being investigated by an insane cop.

You think they should show "Guilty", you're saying?

[yabbaguy]

cee nine hash?

[yabbaguy]

Figured as much, didn't know how to say it.

[yabbaguy]

Sorry about that. I remember you editing in another "full Mafia reveal used" line in another game, thought you were doing it for your own.

I agree that a Godfather should not have to worry about a Cop's sanity. Godfather should always be innocent.

This is disagreeing, I believe. Insane and Sane alike getting Innocent, you're saying? That has the risk of mod-confirming the GF as stated previously.

[yabbaguy]

We should probably make some sort of standard then:

*Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?

YES, DAY START.

*Inhibited Scum Reveal (Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else) - this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?

KEEP IT.

*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?

???

*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?

INSANE SHOWS "GUILTY" ON GF (and SK).

*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?

MAKE AN ACTIVE ACTION, NO NOTIFICATION.

*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?

CONFIRM D1.

*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

UHH... NO.

[yabbaguy]

Somehow - the Millerhood addition means that the Cop is going to get an inflated quantity of guilties. Actually, if there were precisely 3 Millers put into the game, then there would be either 4 or 5 guilties - and most of them WOULDN'T be Mafia. SK is possibly going to get a guilty as well, but that actually finagles with the Cop investigations quite a bit.

If I'm honest, C = Cop + 1 Miller, adding the Miller normally instead of a VT, seems just fine if we want the more "elegant" route. In a game with 3 Millers - there are more Town that are going to show guilty than scum, plus there's a GF, plus the sanity doubts of the Cop. What should the reality be?

1 Miller is the only thing guaranteed to fit in the setup, I should add. Also, naive millers do make more sense it seems.

[yabbaguy]

In that case, forget it. Let's just stick with the 1-3 rule that iam and myself, then everyone else used.

SK either has Investigation Immunity or doesn't, so they're ineligible for Millerhood.

[yabbaguy]

Naive Millers in a semi-Open are permissible. But if we feel it's debilitating, let's just do 1 Miller. And whether we make it a separate role or tether it to any of the eligible roles that we've been going by forever, everyone probably will find it more fun with the latter, but it's less swingy in the former. That said, swingy is sorta what makes this so cool, and it's already Town-tilted, so the prospect of a PR being shocked with a Sane guilty might be best.

Aware Miller gets a Sane Cop confirmed. We can't have that, I reckon.

[yabbaguy]

Really, though, the more I think about it the more I think miller is a hack. Replace 'C' with Insane Cop, move on with your life.

I don't agree. Having an Insane Cop more than Sane sounds unfun - imagine if you drew Cop. You statistically have to assume you're Insane. That's odd and may actually still end up benefiting the Town more if anyone comes to that realization quickly.

I like the Miller addition. I'm personally really torn between whether we should go for the fun of a Miller Backup Roleblocker or the fact that it's more intuitive to simply add a Miller like any other role generated - put in Sane Cop and Miller and any other roles generated, then add vanilla, and stir. Serves 12.

[yabbaguy]

So you're happy to implement these changes in?

Miller should be told they are miller. I typically believe when there is an open set up and miller is a role in the game then they get a VT role PM. However when miller is a mere possibility I believe it hoses the town more in a game like this.

As for this, it sounds like an interesting idea - but again, that can get a Cop confirmed. Although, maybe. If scum fakeclaims Miller - then they can possibly extract a Cop and gain an advantage, but that is HARD if an actual Miller exists.

What about Miller shows on the flip but doesn't show in the Role PM?

With the 50% cop rule:

C = Sane or Insane Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane and Insane Cop

That one C makes it even

more

artificial. If anything, we should just have one separate Miller. Make it a role, make it an informed role, whatever.

So my Miller proposal

1 Miller on 1 C.
Miller is a separate role, added just like any other role in this setup. C = 1 Sane Cop + 1 Miller
Miller gets Vanilla PM but shows Miller if/when flipped.

Thus the setup could be deduced - but that actually opens a small door for Mafia to creep in with a fakeclaim, which is really fun.

[yabbaguy]

Cops are therefore guaranteed Sane, then? Even with a GF and potential Investigate Immune SK, that's a big Town-skew. Cop guilties are 100% and cause scum to spontaneously combust.

Kaboom.

[yabbaguy]

(7)*(.15)*(.85)^6

39.6% chance of one C.

Or to put it another way: sane/insane only requires one lynch to confirm sanity, or 0 lynches if you simply target yourself N0.

Do try to keep up - we don't have an N0 as of now, and a supremo primo numero uno rule when discussing PRs is that no action can target itself unless explicitly stated otherwise.

sane/insane only requires one lynch to confirm sanity

One lynch that may never come at all, but becomes more likely as the game goes on. That's part of the fun.

[yabbaguy]

Simple carelessness, no insult intended.

[yabbaguy]

That's why I'm calling in farside. I think we're agreed on most things except the Miller stuff.

[yabbaguy]

What we had settled on previously: as-is, BUT:

* Game Day Starts instead of Night Starts
* An Insane Cop investigating a Godfather gets a Guilty (GF shows inno, Insane gets opposite. Same with SK). This is just a matter of making a rule consistent.
* SK does not get notified if Spy targets them - how they appear with Spy Immunity is an active action they take each Night.
* Innocent Children are confirmed D1. Again, a consistency issue.

We're a hung jury on how to deal with one C and/or millers at present. Thoughts?