Mini 1219 - Bedtime Stories Mafia - Game Over!

[deselby]

he was blatantly using newbie 1126 against me before then, this is why i made that post.

Ok, but this is not clear, to me at least, by reading hiphops posts.

Hiphop - is this true?

[Thomith]

him attacking me he said something like "he is defending town because he knows neruz's allignment to get town points" which i did in the game he modded so he was blatantly using that game against me.

[Beck]

@Neruz - Games need to be approved. Three cult recruiters would not be approved, especially since I don't think that can even balance with just 13 ponies playing.

Plenty of shit has gotten through the approval process before; it's highly subjective. You can say all you like about balance and approval processes, but until i see definitive proof that GreyICE's PM is outright lies, i am going to operate under the assumption that it is not, purely because it's far too dangerous to assume it is lies if it turns out to be truths.

Let's end this whole cult discussion right now

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ormal_game

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Those affecting a role's alignment

(no Cults).

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher,

Cultist

, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

this has beena busy weekend for me, I plan on doing a thorough read-through later today hopefully

[Neruz]

Fair enough, but you didn't actually explain it that way in the post you quote here.

If you'd stopped to think about the post for half a second instead of just mindlessly sheeping someone else's argument, you'd have realised all of what i just said because it's the most blatantly obvious play in the history of mafia.

Mafia is a game of wits deselby, how about you start using yours?

[deselby]

Fair enough, but you didn't actually explain it that way in the post you quote here.

If you'd stopped to think about the post for half a second instead of just mindlessly sheeping someone else's argument, you'd have realised all of what i just said because it's the most blatantly obvious play in the history of mafia.

Mafia is a game of wits deselby, how about you start using yours?

Mafia is also a game of posts, it's better if the post's say things rather than imply them.

[Neruz]

How do you expect to be able to scumhunt if you can't read between the lines?

[implosion]

From the first two pages and some thinking, Neruz is probably town. The only thing his second RVS vote would do (and has done) is draw attention. There's really no scum motivation for making a second random vote (there's no town motivation either, but there is a reason scum would be less likely to do it: drawing attention).

From the first two pages, the one sticking out as the scummiest to me is hiphop, mainly because of how he's pushing on neruz.

As for Neruz- I am trying to lynch scum, what are you trying to do?

Something about this sentence pings my scumdar. I think it's how the sentence not only tries to make Neruz look bad, but tries to make hiphop look good. I just don't feel like the first half of the sentence would be there (or that the second half would be phrased this way) if hiphop were town.

Especially

since hiphop hadn't actually made any clear efforts to find scum at this point (he RVS'd Thomith as his only post before the one I quoted). So essentially: The way that the sentence tries to make Neruz bad without explicitly calling him out as scum or voting him, the fact that it tries to make hiphop look like town and not just Neruz look like scum, and the fact that it's hypocritical in multiple ways (hiphop hadn't made any efforts, yet he calls Neruz out for not making any efforts; hiphop doesn't vote Neruz, even though he's calling out Neruz for not voting someone he gave scumpoints to) make this a scummy post. (note: a few posts later, hiphop explains why he's still voting Thomith; the fact remains that he hadn't done any scumhunting at the point of the quoted post).

Page one made me think Thomith was town. His post about being scum in 4/7 games was, as someone else said, a towntell in that it wouldn't be natural for mafia to say that they've been mafia a lot because psychologically it would put them in the spotlight.

weirdvoigts is probably town. 55 indicates genuine scumhunting, especially with how Thomith has been acting. Their other posts have also felt generally genuine.

Your blatant defense of him, confirms the fact that you already know his alignment.

Oh god more scumposting. First of all: defending someone does not make a given person scum. Implying that it does is implying that no townies have ever blatantly defended anyone, which is just absurd. Second: this sentence just seems way too sure that thomith is scum. I don't see this much certainty three pages in from town.

More coming in a minute, I just wanna make sure this doesn't end up as too much of a wall.

VOTE: hiphop

[Thomith]

Hiphop is using meta against me and using it badly. At this time i find it more of a null tell than a scum tell and find the people who seem to be following him with no reasons of their own the scummy ones, Voided is a prime example of this.
However Hiphop saying "There is no town motivaton behind your posts" seems like he is reaching here, however i don't find it majorly scummy that he is doing this, at this point in time anyway.

[Neruz]

Hiphop is using meta against me and using it badly. At this time i find it more of a null tell than a scum tell and find the people who seem to be following him with no reasons of their own the scummy ones, Voided is a prime example of this.
However Hiphop saying "There is no town motivaton behind your posts" seems like he is reaching here, however i don't find it majorly scummy that he is doing this, at this point in time anyway.

This doesn't make sense.

If you are town, then there obviously

is

town motivation behind your posts, ergo from your POV Hiphop is blatantly wrong when he states there is no town motivation behind your posts. You should be all over him for that; you have something which you know, for a

fact

is incorrect.

Unless, of course, you're not town and you know that Hiphop is right, in which case that post makes perfect sense. Hello scum.

[Thomith]

Obviously i know there is town motivation behind my posts, however i don't think he is scum at the moment. At this point i am thinking he is probably town trying to find scum but his reasons for voting me seem flawed, also i am trying to convince him he is wrong, however you don't have to be "in your face" to defend yourself.

[implosion]

NOTE: I am blatantly defending Thomith.

We're not talking in absolutes here; we're talking about this specific case of Thomith defending Neruz. And I agree with hiphop...it makes little sense that he's defending Neruz here against a legitimate point for this stage in the game.

I don't understand this - why does it make little sense?

So you are basically assuming everyone that defends someone is scum. So defending someone who you disagree with getting voted for the case on thim is scummy? Good to know.

Your blatant defense of him, confirms the fact

that you already know his alignment.

Stop strawmanning and pay attention to the bolded.

How the hell is this a strawman. The action that you were criticizing was Thomith's blatant defense of Neruz; the bolded is just why you think that makes him scum. Thomith is still correct that you're 'basically assuming everyone that defends someone is scum.' You can apply the same argument (X is defending Y, therefore X knows Y's alignment) to, well, ANY instance of defense.

Thank you for continuing to make baseless assumptions.

See, the thing is, we actually have a good reason to suspect Neruz, and your defense of him is both indirectly implicating him as being scum and making you out to be a suspect as well.

Besides, I don't think you or Neruz have really explained why he would call you scummy and then vote someone else because coming up with a seemingly legit case (however small it was) and the trying to mask things under the guise of RVS smells REALLY fishy.

I'm honestly not sure what to think of this post, but it's notable. I would say it makes voided

probably

town. The second line feels genuine. His pushing on Thomith also feels somewhat genuine.

hiphop:

what's your read on Neruz?

The comment on his high percentage of games as scum was ballsy but for a fairly good player it could easily be a scum gambit.

Here it is. Do you think Thomith is the kind of player who would have said this line as a scum gambit?

I kind of like rainbow's 75, too. It feels genuine as well, specifically the mid-post read change.

I'm going to answer Thomith's question to Bvoigt for him, as we already discussed this and agree. These are the four motivations you may have for defending Thomith:
1. You are scum defending a townie so that if he flips town, you get townpoints.
2. You are scum defending a buddy, this is less likely due to the obviousness of the defense.
3. You are scum defending a townie trying to fake a reaction, but overdid it.
4. You are town defending someone you legitimately think is town.

Those are the four possible motivations I can think of. As you can see that's a pretty good chance that you are scum.

There are four possible motivations, WV, for you pushing a lynch on Thomith:
1. You are scum pushing a townie to get a mislynch.
2. You are scum pushing a buddy to get towncred from a bus.
3. You are scum tunneling on a townie so that you don't have to focus on too many other people.
4. You are town legitimately pushing on someone you think is scum.

Apply the above argument to, well...

every single person in this game.

I guess everyone in this game is probable scum. Oh, wait...

You know that the majority of players possess the Town Win Condition.

Your argument is flawed because just because there are more possible scum motivations than town motivations, it doesn't mean that all four motivations are equally likely. The town motivation is by far more likely than any of the other three

simply by virtue of there being more town than nontown in this game.

Talk about cults is stupid. It was sarcastic to begin with, I'm pretty sure.

[Thomith]

omg hiphop implosion is defending me does that make us obvious scum buddies?

[Evil Bullet]

SIGH....

Voided's latest post seems a bit town. Guys I think we're all headed in the wrong direction. Thomith, Neruz, and Voided are all town. I need everyone on this player list to start posting so I can calibrate.

[Thomith]

The only two people who haven't posted are Slueth and Parama. As for who the scum is i think we should look for people who haven't contributed much and seem to be following lead, as this is standard scum play, however not all scum play like it but it is a place to start.

[Sleuth]

Wow didn't check my PMs in a couple days and this game is out of rvs. So much the better I suppose. I read page one before I realized there were 6 pgs. Neruz would have been my vote but I need to catch.up

[Voidedmafia]

Wow didn't check my PMs in a couple days and this game is out of rvs. So much the better I suppose. I read page one before I realized there were 6 pgs. Neruz would have been my vote but I need to catch.up

Would I be correct in assuming that you'd be voting Neruz for the same reason we've been harping on him?

[Thomith]

Hmm, must've gotten names wrong.

I actually have original points against Neruz, not Thomith, sorry. So, you'd be right in that I'd be sheepvoting...IF I only used other's reasoning and didn't build off it iwith my own, which I clearly didn't do when I voted you. So, your reason for voting me is baseless until you can think of something better.

Do YOU think i'm scum, if so why?

[Sleuth]

Wow didn't check my PMs in a couple days and this game is out of rvs. So much the better I suppose. I read page one before I realized there were 6 pgs. Neruz would have been my vote but I need to catch.up

Would I be correct in assuming that you'd be voting Neruz for the same reason we've been harping on him?

For what I saw on page one. Has it been continuing? stuck in traffic posting but can't read it all yet

[Thomith]

Slueth what play are you talking about when you say "has it been continuing?" ?

[Rainbowdash]

Obviously he is attempting to state that Neruz is town when there is little to go on, which results with him scum defending a townie.

Bull.

There is nothing wrong with trying to shut down a wagon or thinking someone is town in early stages of a game. I have actually done this having zero read on the person who was getting wagoned because the reasons made absolutely zero sense.

Even you state to Thomith.

Town usually will vote for somepony with little to no reasoning. What type of poines have you been playing with?

And, the fact that you now flip your view is disturbing. There is no reason as to why Thomith defended Neruz, if he wasn't scum, and didn't know his alignment.

TOWN CAN DEFEND A READ. I really cannot believe that you never have defended somepony you thought was town, at all, early in a game or not, just based off a read of them. I mean heck, probably defend a good half the game usually when I play since I for whatever odd reason really dislike people trying to get my town reads lynched.

And here you say

When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

Which should show you that Thomith is more likely scum, not knowing where to look to find other scum. But apparently not.

Given the gamestate, failure to start a case on somepony else would likely result in the wagon shifting to him if he convinced everypony to get off Neruz. Scum normally will not draw a wagon onto themselves. Unless Thomith competely ignored everyone locking down hard on him and Neruz, he is probably town from this.

Thomith is a bit of a town read still, this whole attack on him is harping on an at best null tell.

Calling Thomith town because 4 people are pushing for his lynch, really? First, ever heard of bussing, A.k.a Voided. Second, there are more townies then scum(more than 4 townies), or does your role state otherwise? I really do not see how you cannot label Thomith as scum.

If he is scum, then the entire wagon on him is town, which I really don't think is the case. As long as we are still going for the "one of two" thing, im actually leaning heavily to either you or Neruz being scum at this point given the last few pages. Not to mention it means WV and VM would have to be town. I see next to zero chance all four of you are town, and those don't look like bus posts.

Unvote
Vote Beck

Better lynch. Sleuth isn't a bad wagon after that last post of his either.

[Thomith]

hmm.. looking back slueth and beck who have both posted have added very little to the game.

FOS: Beck and Slueth

however my vote stays on voided for now as voided posted after my question and seemed to ignore it.
I am also looking forward to what Parama will make of this.

[Voidedmafia]

Oh, right, if I think you're scum. Had a post on that, then stupidly got it deleted by clicking on a bookmark. But anyways, I checked through the first couple pages up to when I switched to you, and I didn't really see much reason for me to vote you, so I'm gonna

Unvote

.

I still hold Neruz in suspicion, but Evil Bullet is right in that we probably need to either look at things from a different angle or find another place to go to.

Sleuth: How far along are you in reading, and do you have thoughts on what's happened so far?

Cloudocean: Any thoughts on recent events?

Parama:...Are you even going to post?

[Thomith]

Well... ok then that seems a

little

weird but i won't worry about it now. So i will UNVOTE: . Now i am going to vote one of my FOS' and seeing as beck has made more posts with almost the same amount of content than slueth i am going to VOTE: Beck as i sence a level of active lurking from him.

[implosion]

So rainbow, wanna join me in voting hiphop? I mean, Beck isn't a particularly bad vote, but there are better ones.

SIGH....

Voided's latest post seems a bit town. Guys I think we're all headed in the wrong direction. Thomith, Neruz, and Voided are all town. I need everyone on this player list to start posting so I can calibrate.

Very much this.

[hiphop]

I actually have original points against Neruz, not Thomith, sorry. So, you'd be right in that I'd be sheepvoting...IF I only used other's reasoning and didn't build off it iwith my own, which I clearly didn't do when I voted you.

You are having regrets? Why? If you truly were town, why would you do something, that you regret later?

Hiphop - is this true?

Absolutely not. He is clearly strawmanning. I have named countless examples of why he is scum. Every single posts seems to bleed scumminess.

Post #124, and #126 are forms of buddying. And #132 and #136 are fence sitting.

Voided's latest post seems a bit town. Guys I think we're all headed in the wrong direction. Thomith, Neruz, and Voided are all town. I need everyone on this player list to start posting so I can calibrate.

Explain

Rainbowdash-I tried to defend against someone who I thought was townie way back in Newbie 845. Right before I played in my first scum game. I defended scum day 1, because I thought that with everyone pushing the wagon, that it might be scum driven. Turns out his partner was bussing, scum was lynch, I was lynched day 2. I intend to never do it again, though I have done it as scum since.

sleuth Can you get an avatar, so that people would reconize you from your picture, instead of reading your name every time?