Newbie 1149 Game Over

[Stiaan]

/Confirm

*Filling holes sine '03

I'll answer your questions tomorrow. In a hurry atm.

[Stiaan]

I've played face to face once or twice, and online for about 3 years. Only my second game on mafiascum though.

3) Do you feel you have one major fault in your logic processes related to mafia? How do you work to improve it?

Are you fishing for something you can exploit?

I don't know anyone else in this game, no. I did play with Slandaar for the latter part of my previous game, though. Your other questions are irrelevant.

VOTE:

vote: bv310

as well. I don't see how those questions will help us catch scum. It just seems like it will help scum avoid detection if anyone actually answered them sincerely - you're basically asking "what are scumtells that you guys look for, so that I can avoid making them?"

Nice try!

The bolded bit makes it seem as though you are completely certain that this makes bv310 scum. Is that what you want to convey or not? Do you

have

to post in colour?

[Stiaan]

@Stiaan: If I'm voting for someone, then obviously I think they're scum... am I "certain"?... it's day 1, page 2... what do you want me to say? I'm just voting for who I think is "scummiest" at the moment. It's not like we have a lot to go on yet.

No, if you vote for someone, it does not necessarily mean that you think that person is scum. Which is why I asked whether or not you are certain that he is scum, as the way you made your vote implies. There's a difference between thinking someone is scummy and thinking someone is scum.

Slandaar seems to be incredibly erratic and I think that's probably a bit anti-town. It does seem to be provoking some sort of discussion, though.

[Stiaan]

No, I think being erratic and all over the place is anti-town.

[Stiaan]

Christ, you don't comprehend what you read, ever? Being erratic causes chaos and distracts from our main focus - scumhunting. The limited discussion that it has provoked thus far has been a lucky byproduct of this.

[Stiaan]

Post coming from me in the next hour or two. I haven't been as active as I would have wanted. Weekend was quite busy and I had some major exams I had to prepare for. So yeah, will go through things in detail now.

[Stiaan]

If my style has provoked discussion as you say, then why is it antitown ?

As I'm going through things, I find Slandaar's play incredibly striking. Not that it's telling, or anything, it just reminds me so much of my first two games where I played pretty much exactly the same as Slandaar is now. Questioning everyone and everything, forcing discussions to lead to unknown places. That's what I meant with being erratic. Slandaar is all over the place. Now I don't know if it's because I know I did the exact same in some of my earliest games as an over-enthusiastic townie taking scumhunting to a whole new mindfuckingly off-the-chart level, but it does give me a leaning-town read on him for the moment. Of course, scum could very easily have accidentally attached themselves to all kinds of discussions and then find it difficult to get out of them, but this early in the game it's a town-tell because Slandaar, as scum, would be taking a tremendous risk of slipping by posting this much.

That said, I do not approve of the playstyle. You ask why it's anti-town, so here's the explanation:
By probing, as you have, you've come incredibly close to tunneling. Regardless of that, though, the overzealous approach floods the thread with probably 85% useless information, in the form of failed attempts of forcing discussions that could yield scumtells. On the surface, that sounds okay, but the vast amount of failed scumhunting directions cloaks the odd 15% that might actually have been something good to go on. I've learned this the hard way. Furthermore, because you are probing every single thing that dares to move, it encourages scum to drop into the shadows. If there is such a great chance of Slandaar latching onto some silly comment of theirs, like he did originally with Zeek, then why risk posting? The over-the-top scumhunting approach conceals a lot of things, and from a scum perspective, having someone instigating so much discussion already, it would be easy to sit back and let the townies scumhunt themselves through to mislynches. I've been on this side of the situation as well. So, in light of this, the players that I'd suggest receive attention would be those guilty of noting their solemn agreements and not doing anything more than that. I believe that a Lynch-Lurker policy might also be a feasible town-strategy because of the explanation I just gave. I'm on page 3 as I'm formulating this, so maybe something will still pop up to dissuade my view or I might find the said "solemn agreement" or passive play I've been referring to.

I really hate having to catch up like this.

Slandaar clearly you dont like Zeek but he has given many good reasons why he did what he did and even though his reasons seem to be more than likely you still attack him. how can you be so certain that his explanations for what he did are not the true reasons. I mean yes we all get the fact that it was suspisious what he did im not arguing that fact im simply saying that it seems you may be trying to push it further than it can go.

Refer to the above. I think this is a good example of the non-committal play I was referring to. Vilfa concedes that both sides of the Zeek/Slandaar debate have valid points, and agrees with both arguments without necessarily taking a real stance on the matter. "Yes it's suspicious but it's also not really"

Vote vilfa_cola

Wow you (Thomas) really overreacted to another player asking you to actually explain your reads. Like in an angry child way. Is there a reason for that or can I expect you to respond that way to all simple questions?

This is a good a point. I find it to be an unnecessary reaction from Thomas. YThan asked a simple question and that was for Thomas to clarify his stance on Zeek, something he was than reluctant to do.

PoS Thomas

UNVOTE: Zeek
VOTE: Stiaan

Why do you think im voting you Stiaan?

1) You are trying to force discussion (see above)
2) I've been inactive
3) You genuinely have a scumread on me

Ugh. Sorry guys, got called in to work two days in a row. I'll get my reasoning and such up tomorrow morning or night, depending on when I wake up.

PoS bv310

As I said, I believe scum would find it all too easy flying low because of the circumstances. The quoted post reeks of someone fearing to be called out for lurking/passivity and wants to prevent that by posting empty promises

depending

on some non-verifiable external factors, that should really not be relevant.

I didn't ask you to guess anything, I asked Stiaan, and I think he will know why. I want to hear Stiaans reply before saying what I think, seems reasonable no?
I cant get read on Ythan so I am prodding him about things, hes the only player with decent ammount of posts I don't have an opinion on.

Very reasonable. Probably the most reasonable thing you've said this entire game.

O RLY? So what have you been doing for the past 5 pages then?

I find it interesting that of all the players in this game, THOMAS is the one you "agree with" on almost everything - especially since Thomas is making some of the worst posts in the entire thread (besides yours, of course). lol

I don't like the sudden derogatory, belittling viewpoint you've assumed on the Slandaar matter. If you are pro-town you would have no fear in providing reasonable arguments in favour of your pro-towniness and would not have to resort to arrogant discrediting of arguments vs you.

[Stiaan]

He's excluded because he announced his V/LA, and it would just be completely unethical to abuse that system to gain a scum advantage. Other than that, sure, he fits the category. Even before he announced the V/LA, as you now point out. I guess I overlooked that because of the V/LA.

[Stiaan]

@Stiaan: Your posts this game compared to the previous game we were in together have been miles apart, this might be due to being busy(inactivity). I have not seen anything from you that is scummy, but at the same time your townieness has not been there either and compared to how you were previously it seems one likely answer for why this could be, is that you are scum.

re catchup post:
The 'scum flying low' theory is essentially why i voted you, someone who has not been very active when I know you were a lot more active as townie in previous game. Going after the low activity players on the surface sounds great but its just seems like you are trying to deflect attention away from your own low post count.

'HAY GUIZ I HAVE BEEN PRETTY INACTIVE BUT THESE GUIZ HAS BEEN EVEN LESS ACTIVE LETS LYNCH EM!'

.

You are actually a perfect example of 'scum flying low' imo, or you might just have been really busy like you said, but you held that against bv... I think you would understand better and not be so suspicious of him if your post count/content was down to just being busy.

I realize this and I completely agree. I did not, however, as a pro-town player, find it a good idea to not mention the "flying low theory" just because I've been inactive (lurking, passive from your perspective) myself. I think it actually has some merit. I was waiting for you to mention the vast difference between my game-play this game and the previous one. That's honestly just been because this game started at about the same time I started preparing for a big exam and I had a lot of social obligations as well (I'd name them, but it's irrelevant). Of course I understand that I have no way of verifying this - and I did PoS BV for something similar. So in defense I offer this: I did not mention my inactivity prior to it actually occurring or make promises of posts coming, as to keep the town waiting and avoid suspicion in their anticipation. I also intend to be more active from here on in, so it will give you a bit more in-game content to work with if you are going to go meta-analysis.

As for the underlined bit; there is a massive difference between just being completely afk/mia and lurking/being non-committal.

[Stiaan]

Post coming from me in the next hour or two. I haven't been as active as I would have wanted. Weekend was quite busy and I had some major exams I had to prepare for. So yeah, will go through things in detail now.

Isn't it August?

America ≠ the world.

Of course, scum could very easily have accidentally attached themselves to all kinds of discussions and then find it difficult to get out of them, but this early in the game it's a town-tell because Slandaar, as scum, would be taking a tremendous risk of slipping by posting this much.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

This is a good read for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. "Scum would never do that" becomes "scum will do this because nobody thinks scum will do it."

There is a mild difference between my post and WIFOM. Note "accidentally". I'm saying that Slandaar might have started out questioning Zeek and then accidentally have gone so far into the discussion/probing that it would be scummy to just leave it, and thus senseless angles are taken. I'm saying that this is less probable than Slandaar just being an enthusiastic townie, described in my earlier post. By posting the above-quoted, I was inferring that my reasoning is WIFOM but there's a big probability factor related to it as well.

So you're pretty sure he's town, then.

Like I've said, I have a leaning-town read on Slandaar.

No scummy posts but not nebulously townie so must be scum? I want a detailed explanation of the variation from this previous game that none of the rest of us have any experience with.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18368
Have a read through it yourself.

[Stiaan]

I don't see much difference between you and bv, I think the two situations are very similar, I don't believe bv was trying to avoid suspicion by promising posts, I think he intended to post hasn't had the time. I mean with his post count the only real case there can ever be on him is that hes inactive/lurking and promising future posts isnt helping deflect that.

Vilfa has been lurking/non-committal i agree, but hes only made like 2 posts? so its not much to go on, again its more like a inactive/lurking case which would be the same sort of thing which would have been aimed at you, maybe hes busy and didn't try to avoid suspicion like yourself.

What are your feelings on the more active players such as Thomas, what do you think of Ythans vote vs him?

If you intend to post, but you don't have the time, then as a townie there definitely wouldn't be anything wrong with not posting, and delaying it until a later stage of the game. BV felt it necessary to state that he will post whenever he gets the chance, depending on some unverifiable irrelevant external factors. He made sure he wouldn't fall under suspicion for not posting by promising a post.

I have already commented on Thomas (PoS) and Ythan's vote on him.

[Stiaan]

I said that because I played with Ythan before so I know that we would rather discuss intelligent animals than take that time to iso somebody. I'm guessing you meant FoS?

No, PoS. Your not yet worthy of a whole finger.

@bv310: I thought you were gonna answer your questions?

Put a vote on him to pressure him into doing so. He claimed he was going to answer either yesterday morning or night... both of those have passed.

Voting him after stating that it will just to be pressure him seems kind of retarded.

[Stiaan]

Will you lynch him if he doesn't give a satisfying answer?

[Stiaan]

No scummy posts but not nebulously townie so must be scum? I want a detailed explanation of the variation from this previous game that none of the rest of us have any experience with.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18368
Have a read through it yourself.

Since you're using it as a point I'd prefer a brief explanation of what exactly you think is relevant out of that thread.

Since we are talking about how my play this game, or lack of it, has been different to that in Newbie 1133, I'd say that everything I did in Newbie 1133 is relevant?

I don't know how I feel about bv posting in other threads but not this one. Surely that means he hasn't even read the thread? Or else he'd know he needs to post? Whether or not that points to disinterested town or extremist lurker, I'm not sure.

[Stiaan]

Since we are talking about how my play this game, or lack of it, has been different to that in Newbie 1133, I'd say that everything I did in Newbie 1133 is relevant?

I'm not going to read a whole game of your posts, take notes, and compare it to this game when you can just tell me what's different that matters. Which you should be doing if you're going to use it to support something.

I didn't use it to support anything, Slandaar voted me partly because of the difference in playstyle (and I just commented on this) which, if you had payed closer attention, you'd have been able to deduce is that I'm less active in this game than in Newbie 1133.

If you were really enthusiastic about scumhunting, and you found this to actually be relevant, you would have realised the above and/or not have made a point about how you aren't going to bother go through the thread. Are you actually interested in the difference in playstyle or were you just mentioning it to appear to be scumhunting?

Unvote.

@Mod: Am going to be V/LA until Monday.

[Stiaan]

It doesn't, really. I'm just not comfortable having a vote up while I'm V/LA.

[Stiaan]

BV doesn't make much sense, as Zeek pointed out.

I'm also getting some active-lurking vibes from Plenty/Meija

For now though, I think I'm okay with Vilfa at L-1.

Vote Vilfa

[Stiaan]

Here you vote for plenty because you accuse him of "not scumhunting", but don't back it up with anything - mostly you were just looking for someone else to throw your vote on, but vilfa was on L-1 so you weren't comfortable hammering, so you just made up a little reason to vote plenty.

This doesn't need any backing up, everybody knows already how little plenty has contributed to the game thus far.

There must be something else to this. Here's a quick post count (as of post#333, mod included for comparison)

Player	Posts
Slandaar	84
Thomas	54
Ythan	51
Zeek	51
Nobody Special	26
Meji/mountainclimber	18 (12/6)
plenty	18
Stiaan	17
bv	7
vilfa	7

I'm prepared to concede that Stiaan may have more content than me (too lazy to check), and Meji replaced mountainclimber who was lurking pretty badly, but would you care to explain how bv and vilfa aren't "lurking and not scumhunting" when I have more posts in the thread than both of them combined?

This is another beautiful example of you actively lurking. This post doesn't really bring anything new to the table, yet it tries so hard to be informative, when what it is actually informing us of is somewhat irrelevant.

Post #336 also just sums up what other players did without taking any stance at all.

Unvote. Vote Plenty

[Stiaan]

@Stiaan: Why do you think plenty is MORE SCUMMY than vilfa? (aka, why change your vote?)

I voted Vilfa because his inactivity and the way he seemed to be content with going with the flow of things. The main deciding factor of my vote was that I felt Slandaar's explosion of scumhunting at the start of the game would make scum crawl into their shells for fear of being picked on. I listed a couple of players who I felt fitted this category, and decided to vote Vilfa. Plenty has done pretty much the same as Vilfa - being neither here nor there in any of his posts, and only posting enough to not be replaced. I changed my vote to him after it became clear that Vilfa was going to be replaced - nullifying the basis of my Vilfa-vote.

[Stiaan]

I'm replacing out. Sorry. I can't give this game the attention it deserves.