Newbie 1151 ÔÇô Game Over

[Lord]

Vote: Ranmaru

because it's night.

[Lord]

East Europe FTW.

[Lord]

I have thought of voting you as an RVS, but I thought it would be better to use it on someone new to get a read on them.

This post makes me feel particularly uneasy. Basically, admitting to have taken the easy path? Sir, you won some more time from my vote on you.

Ok, I put a comment and for some reason it didn't go through. Anyway, I just want to see why during RVS Lord chose to vote for someone who already had a vote against them. Right after my comment, Xeras voted for Ranmaru. Did you just do this to make a point? I've just been trying to get the discussion going by asking questions like you guys have said.

I am one of those people who sees value in pressure wagons. Sue me.

and since I haven't placed an RVS vote either this is where my vote will stay for the moment.

Ok, townpoints for this. Not scum mentality. We'll see how you'll perform later.

@Xeras: Nice poem.

Ranmaru is questioning everyone in a style that I find quite...forced at this point. Have to ask.

@Ranmaru: Is that how you usually play?

ok, I don't know whats going on, but this is the second comment I tried to put that hasn't gone through. I understand that Lord may not have seen the earlier vote, but I still wish to hear his say on it.

Just to lift the confusion off of this. Yes, I have seen the previous votes.

[Lord]

ok, I don't know whats going on, but this is the second comment I tried to put that hasn't gone through. I understand that Lord may not have seen the earlier vote, but I still wish to hear his say on it.

I typed the wrong name here. Where I said Lord should be racerman, terribly sorry for that.

Sorry, missed this post. Well you get the point anyway.

[Lord]

UNVOTE: Ranmaru

This vote is getting me no where, and I don't want someone to hammer when I am asleep.

It is not even L-1, and I'm not seeing you putting that vote elsewhere.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xeras

Let's get this party starting.

[Lord]

May I know why?

[Lord]

Well then you probably won't hold it against me that I call bs on that until the 'yet' comes.

[Lord]

I ignore the blatant attempt at changing the subject and lynch scum. Not the answer you hoped for?

[Lord]

Wondering how you arrived to that conclusion. Either way, rtop dodging my question. Why is Krazy scummy?

[Lord]

First off, he stated he wouldn't want anyone to be hammered while asleep, so obviously it wouldn't go anywhere regardless. Afterwards, he explained to you his reasoning.

Anyone aside from Krazy was not even near lynching, and Krazy himself wasn't at L-1. There was literally NO danger of that happening. Therefore, overcautious play.

There have been no other posters besides Krazy me Epsilon Xeras and you. It's obvious his vote wouldn't go anywhere else since he doesn't have enough leads yet.

He DID state his suspicion of Krazy, with no follow. Also, as stated above, there was no real grounds for worrying of a quicklynch.

Now after reading this, why is your vote still on him?

Because I think he's scum, and I told you why. Why are you defending him?

I feel you don't really think Xeras is scum

Are you seriously implying that you have more knowledge of my thought process than myself?

and after he explains you don't really explain why you are still voting him.

Where does he do that?

I was not taking the easy path. Essentially taking the easy path for me would have been voting Krazy. Also keep in mind I voted an SE. Also keep in mind that you essentially voting someone with a vote already on them is also taking the easy path.

The votes already on Xalxe are RVS votes. I'm not sheeping anybody. They will either disagree with me and search for another lead (like you did), or agree with me. It is irrelevnt either way. Also situational. While you made a general statement with that post about your play, which I don't agree with and find scummy.

Please expand on the underlined wrt to Krazy.

While scum may feel at loss pushing for a mislynch, and fencesit until there are enough posts to craft up a case/if there isn't such a thing just let town destroy itself, that particular post from Krazy strikes me as genuine and not fencesitting.

As for the wiki check, I will do it, and say if I find anything later today (I do appreciate meta as a valid means to read someone).

[Lord]

Ok, read your first 3 games here. Your style is consistent indeed, and similar to this game. Nothing to add on that.

[Lord]

@Racerman

Well the "why do you think Krazy is scum" is also tied closely to the "why not vote for Krazy?". I AM confident in my read of Xalxe, to be perfectly honest. Also, I said I find value in pressure wagons, NOT that I am pressure wagoning Xalxe. (my vote on you, for instance, was pressure, now that you answered my question about your play style and I have indeed verified it, pressure's off)

It may not have been the initial reason for voting him, true, but he gave me a reason to keep my vote there. My style of play (well, no meta to base this on, take my word for it XD) involves a lot of vote hopping, I think that arguments are stronger if followed by a vote...we get unlimited unvotes after all.

Post #56 while indeed answering the matter does not necessarily change my mind. And I do not deny the not voting Krazy thing came later, because I DIDN'T KNOW he thought Krazy was scummy before, obv.

I am obviously not sheeping. RVS votes are not made on thought, and it stands to reason that said votes will make up their own minds and throw them around differently. It is only sheeping if someone had a honest scumread of Xalxe before me - and that did not happen.

Scum can do that to look town, but I don't think it's the case here. Call bs on this, it's irrelevant either way, as Krazy will get on posting more eventually, and then we shall see who's right.
BUT (there's a but) when Xalxe eventually decides to stop avoiding the issue and say why he had that stance on Krazy, he better use pages 1-3, cause he's not a Diviner Specialist Wizard.

[Lord]

Ah, excuse me. It should be "Ranmaru" instead of racerman.

[Lord]

And Xeras instead of Xalxe. YOUR NAMES ARE SO SIMILAR.

[Lord]

It's kinda embarrassing ).

[Lord]

@Lord. I was only saying that I found Krazy to be suspicious so that why I could have more activity. There has been nothing yet, and I got the reaction I thought I would have got from other people.

I find that rather hard to believe. VERY hard to believe, actually. But Racer isn't looking too well either.

Not true. It is not, if you have asked him "Why aren't you voting him?" it would have been an entirely different story. The reason for him not voting him is totally different than the reason for why he is suspicious of him. Keep that in mind.

I voted him because he unvoted, and then didn't have a vote out. After he told me he was leaning scummy on Krazy with no basis it was pretty obvious that the vote he had to have out should've been on Krazy. Suspicion changes as someone posts.

Well you should try to be more consistent. You seemed to be caught up in the new things that come up and not in what you originally were looking for. Well I will make sure to see if you vote hop in the future and if it lines up with your story. I like to vote hop too, it helps me get reads.

I will also see if you live up to this promise...provided that you have no mafia game in your wiki, and you could just as well play with this town style as maf. (I'm taking the meta argument to null, is what I mean)

Ok, so why didn't it change your mind? I want you to tell me what new reasoning you have for Xeras SCUM. What do you think of his recent explanation?

I think that his recent explanation is far worse that what I was suspecting him for so far, and my vote is not moving.

Ok, so how does my RVS vote on Xeras = the easy path?

This is misreading on your part. I found your general statement about RVSing new players commendable and amid to taking the easy path. I didn't say your specific voting pattern in this game subscribes to that.

Wrt to Krazy's null tell, why don't you think it's the case? I don't think that's a good thing to say. You don't really have a good reason for giving Krazy town points, and now you say 'just wait, you'll see' How can you know he can bring much more townieness later on from a minor RVS post? Was it just a vibe?

I am unwilling to call it gut, cause I find some logic behind my affirmation. But I may be willing to admit that I'm wrong. Either way, one town-tell (whether it's in my book or no) doesn't make for a full town read.

Again, I would like to see your thoughts on his recent response to you.

Look above.

Ranmaru, I feel for you, I really do, and I know you told me that your attack on me does NOT have defending Xeras attached to it, but it's not really looking that way ).
One question for you. Do you think that Epsilon is buddying up to me in a scummy way right now? I am unsure on a read on him.

[Lord]

Gah this town is such a lurker town. ; _____________ ;

Ah almost forgot. Is this statement a joke or serious? I don't think we should care about lurkers at this point.

[Lord]

Ok, here's the whole story.

This is an alt of Meransiel, yes, but I was playing a site-wide prank implying that it is NOT an alt, just a close friend of Meransiel. In one OTHER game, I posted with this instead of Mer by mistake, and I was modkilled (force replaced, but it's not a great difference). So you get the point.

Either way, I might have exaggerated earlier with leaving the site, I like this game too much, so expect another wall from me detailing what has transpired since Krazy woke up from his grave after I come back from my 4 hour snooker 4 hour swimming relaxation day.

No time to post too much right now, will just make a short ammendation - when I said Epsilon was sorta buddying me, I meant sheeping. Will explain. So far, though I have no time to comment I DID read the entire game, and suffice to say find no reason to move my vote off of Zeras.

[Lord]

Ah, also also, because I saw 1 or two. "Appeal to X" are 100% null tells that everyone falls into. Keep that in mind.

[Lord]

Ok, let's get busy. But, before that, fun fact sharing . Although many people don't believe this, there ARE absolutes in mafia. Here is one of them: if a newbie thinks meta analysis is useful, he is an alt.

Town

Epsilon

Explain this please.

I would still like you to answer this please. Sorry if you already did.

Buddying to Krazy. =/ Ranmaru ninja'd me by miles.

I hate giving Mafia lessons to people, but here's one: there is no point in buddying someone if you don't know what his reads are yet as you might disagree with them (yes, this can happen EVEN if you are scum).

VOTE: Lord. Paranoia, buddying, false crediting. Kinda didn't want to vote after 'that' ^^

Given the extreme consistency of this vote, here is a thought experiment for you. Imagine I was unlynchable. Who would you vote?

Lord, what was it I said that seems like I was buddying up to you? I just wish to know where the origin of this started.

I think you followed me on Xeras with painfully insubstantial reasoning. That's why it was rather a typo on my part, as I meant sheeping. I will ask you the same question. If Xeras would be unlynchable, who would you vote? In all honesty, I would probably vote you.

and although I'm kind of annoyed that Meransiel is taking one of the few newbie slots in a game already full of SEs

I completed only 10-11 games so far, I'm not that experienced.

I've been feeling pretty strongly that most the arguments are town are town and that both of our scum are likely in the players that hadn't posted much yet, and right now, Stels I have a gut read on you as scum.

I don't like that you're calling it a gut read, given what you posted afterwards, the "guess who's scum and who's town" mini-game, where you've basically proven your read on Stels is not exactly gut. So I will have to ask, did you lie initially, or did it strike you after you made that post?

@Krazy: meh, whatever makes you happy =/

You reacted too calmly. Dunno what it means but it's usually a bad sign. I'll follow you. Though your inquiry of Krazy I find a little better than null.

This does not strike me as a very town-oriented reaction to my vote.

Why?

downplay my position and distract from the things you actually are saying

Your position is that you have a gut read, how can THAT be downplayed even lower? Oh, it's strengthened. How opportunistic.

Spoiler: The Usual Ranmaru Head Knocking

Again, I don’t really know if you were really caring about his vote because you didn’t press on his vote, just his suspicion.

I never pressed on his vote. Just on his unvote. I don't really understand what you want here.

Yes you say you don’t believe it, but you don’t state why.

I don't need to. It's obviously fake. You don't give a false read just to basically make things move, and that's what he outright admitted to doing.

No. I don’t see how me saying that was taking the easy path. I just thought you suspected that me voting a new guy over a player I am familiar with is odd, which I disagree with.

For the love of God, call me when you're done misreading.

I still don’t see how it was a town tell :/

Then you disagree with me. Disagreeing is normal, otherwise this game would consist solely of No Lynching.

Not at all.

Sorry, gotta verify. What part of my #90 was this directed at?

I find his statements to you as null, they don’t seem to be about your stances or anything. Why does it seem scummy to you?

Look above.

Of Isa I won't say much, cause I agree with the way she's posting and analyzing the game (well except that she doesn't agree to the town tell, and I don't have a similar stance on Stells). Seems genuine and consistent.

The whole exercise thing I find utterly irrelevant to forming reads.

The thing about is, that most of these things are semi-obvious, so that is why I will not give him the full town treatment at this time.

THIS is lampshading whatsisnameetcetc, Krazy. Take heed.

Day one basically comes to gut instincts and tricks.
You are the fourth person to vote for me, and as far as I can tell, you have just repeated what others have said. (Other than my small slip of not seeing an unvote)

To me you are null, strongly leaning scum, until I have further interaction with you.

Blatant OMGUS.

Jeffiej •
-------------
Scum. He is lurking,

As I asked Ran before, is this serious?

They need to make sure everyone is playing properly, and not making stupid mistakes. Like lynching on the second day. I am still completely null on this guy.

That's why alts help, I can be an IC AND unhelpful to newbies . On a more serious note, has your read of Krazy changed at all since this?
Also I dunno if you're really paying attention or actual stances. And your thoughts on me and Stels strengthen than opinion.

Also, your town read on Ranmaru is playing the Cpt Obvious, as that is the general consensus anyway.

Racerman's defense posts strikes me as...no, it doesn't strike me.

Here's my full list of reads cause why not?

Town - Isa, Ranmaru
Leaning Town - Stels
Null - racerman13
Fuck you (treat this as null) - Jeffiej
Leaning Scum - Krazy, Epsilon
Scum - Xeras

[Lord]

@Mod: Can you please fix the spoiler tags above? The stray [/quote] should be [/spoiler]. Thank you in advance.

[Lord]

And...wow. I didn't even expect this. Is it even SUPPOSED to be this easy?

unvote

VOTE: johhog

Racerman and Xeras are confirmed town. More on this tomorrow, but you can speculate if you want.

[Lord]

Ok guys, first, here's a life lesson. If someone says something of the effect of "More on this tomorrow", he is probably going to SLEEP. You do not have the right to argue that point. Ok, now that we got that out of the way...

Dependant on the Lordflip

This is in relation with Johhog's read of Xeras as second most scummy player (but notice how in his post he largely calls him town numerous times). Pushing a shift of wagons on me. Now, why is that? Because I'm more aggressive than Xeras, and that's bad for scum. In light of #165, I would even go a step further and say that it works also because Xeras is not suspicious of Krazy.

I think that one of them is scum, but not both.

Also in relation to his stance on Xeras. Scum ALSO don't want to lose the opportunity for setting up mislynches, be they of not so useful people or otherwise. They usually do this with some delicacy, but this...this is blatant. Blatant chaining up lynches. Because scum KNOWS who is town, and my lynch is a device to get to another player the next day, while the scumteam is left intact.

Please notice his stance on Krazy, if you will.

Hard to get a read on, but he's kinda... sketchy in some way. It's worth to note though that I'm usually suspecting the IC.

Classic distancing, directly from the book of Mafia 101. Now, for Racerman.

Johhog, I feel the same way about Xeras/Lord. One of them is scum. Pretty sure it's Xeras, though.

If this is the response of a scumpartner, it's waaaay beyond human capabilities for suboptimal play. Scum gain nothing from disagreeing with each other like this, especially when the first person is not viewed with suspicion, and his stance is considered reasonable either way. If racerman was scum, he would've either run with it, ignore it, OR vote Johhog. This is simple motive and mentality.

Lord lists Epsilon here as one of his top three candidates--yet he has not even said Epsilon's name yet before this post. Seems pretty random.

This is a blatant lie. Anyone could see that by doing a simple ISO of me.

yet uses my pressure on Stels as a reason to keep me in his top 3.

I find your pressure on Stels as unreasoned and she's currently winning that debate over you. Also, as I mentioned earlier, scum love getting rid of aggressive players. Stels doesn't have the strongest scumread on you (that's me). But when I'm gone (IF I'm gone today), you know she'll tunnel full thrusters on you (please keep this prediction in mind, everyone). I have explained my read on Epsilon and the sheer lack of number and standardness of racerman's posts didn't allow me to get a read on him. Until this page, that is.

Ok, now I'll do something that pisses you off. Isa's town, Isa's town, Isa's town, town TOOOOWN! Gonna use that against me? Good luck, scum.

Yep, I'm rather glued onto this. Johhog+Krazy, the perfect scumteam. You first saw it here. I can even bet money on this. And if this is wrong, I would even COMPEL you to blacklist me.

I hate giving Mafia lessons to people, but here's one: there is no point in buddying someone if you don't know what his reads are yet as you might disagree with them (yes, this can happen EVEN if you are scum).

WIFOM. Disagreement can lead to agreement. Buddying with different reads makes it more believable that you're not scum. Still WIFOM.

Given that I have a scum read on Krazy, this is irrelevant to the point of hilarity. Are you being serious?

Given the extreme consistency of this vote, here is a thought experiment for you. Imagine I was unlynchable. Who would you vote?

Irrelevant question. Doesn't apply to this game and current situation. I would still vote for you, bluff, lying, as well as you can't be unlynchable in THIS game specifically. Now you're just averting attention with silly questions such as these. Also, does my consistency bother you enough to setup up mind games?

This is the way I would react if I were you, but annoying nonetheless ). No, I'm not unlynchable, but there are 2 scum in this setting. You can be convinced 1 person is scum, but that doesn't go to you as everyone else being town. That's the aim of the question, and I think Epsilon got it right.

As for me calling your vote and reasoning consistent, it was sarcasm. I think you believe in your vote, but you do BECAUSE you didn't think too much about it. Getting town people off of town people (yes, this includes myself, for I have read my own role PM) is, while I won't call it non-scummy, seen it used by scum before, definitely not anti-town.

You reacted too calmly. Dunno what it means but it's usually a bad sign. I'll follow you. Though your inquiry of Krazy I find a little better than null.

Again, same situation as with Krazy. "Town, but I'll see how he fares." "Null, but I'll see how he fares."
So what was I supposed to do? Beg him to unvote me? His vote is half-assed and weak, why would I ever freak out about it?

1. At that point you didn't. But you ARE kind of starting to freak out on his, 'tis just the truth ).
2. It is normal for town to develop reads in time. And change perspective and stuff. You are the kind of person that doesn't want to be wrong, whether this wrongness comes from further evidence, second-guessing yourself, or being contradicted. And I feel for that, I really do, but it just doesn't work in Mafia ).

[Lord]

*facepalm*

Ok...don't worry people, I will fix this!

@Mod: Can you please copy paste the content in the above post into this one, and delete the above post? Thanks in advance again.

[Lord]

No, if Johhog is scum, which I find extremely likely, Xeras IS comfirmed town. Just because his OWN posts don't contribute to said status is a completely unrelated thing.

I didn't say Raecerman has demonstrated townieness outside of his interaction/association with Johhog. I said his other posts are what would be expected of him (like defending from Xeras' fail arguments), and therefore perfectly null.

Less likely partners with Johhog and town, from my PoV, is the same thing, but have at you. If you are asking what players I would find as town had Johhog never posted, I would stick to the list of reads I gave in my second last wall. Stels is town due to her interactions with you, also her stubborness, which (though I admit is partly gut) I can call town-flavoured by relating to similar examples in games I've played (GreyIce, for instance, different styles of speech, same underlying line of play).

Wait, what just happened? Meransiel, please explain this. You are an experienced player and shouldn't be so sure on a wrong read D1. Is this some kind of gambit?

This is so wrong on so many levels that I don't even feel the need to answer.

[Lord]

Cause I can't defend against strawmans. They're simply wrong.

[Lord]

There's no need for a case. The chaining up of lynches is so painfully obvious that if I was a dayvig I would snipe 'em. I would also argue that he bases his reads solely on gut, which he openly admits, but that would be a side point and detracting from the true reason why he is NOT scummy, but actual scum.

And please don't ask me to tunnel, that's kinda awkward. Plus, there's this little thing called relational tells and interaction. About them? They work.

[Lord]

Yeah, if you flip town I admit I'm suspicious of Xeras, but how is that to chain lynches?

*facepalm*

[Lord]

1. I'm not allowed to play as an IC because I don't remember what my last 5 games were exactly.
2. It obviously happens by mistake.

[Lord]

DAMN IT!

[Lord]

Actually, that's not such a bad idea. The main problem with walls is that you can't get people to actually peruse them, so they just skim (I reference you to Krazy calling me out for mentioning Epsilon only once and Johhog saying I gave no explanation about the chain lynching, which I have). A replacement however, is confirmed to itself and has a reason to read the slot's posts.

@Mod: I replace out

Also, I made an alt to take a newbie spot because there's no other way. I have WAY too many games to be a SE, and don't remember my last 5 games in order with certainty (requirement for first time ICs).

[Lord]

Also, it is not THAT easy to always post with the right account. You guys have no idea.

[Lord]

Ok, so I died. Awesome.

Just wanted to say this. All my reads in this game were genuine and I'm sorry if they gave a wrong impression.

Xeras is town. If there is a cop, then please, PLEASE investigate Johhog.

That's it. Bye.

[Lord]

Ok, people, another advice.

If you ARE a PR, then day 1 you should claim at L-1, even if NOBODY tells you to.

In other news, Krazy is sad because he shot and missed. Poor scummie.

[Lord]

Also, please notice the activity overview.

Xeras has about as many posts as me, Ranmaru, and Krazy (this is without adding up stray Merposts), but about a quarter the content. This is usually a town sign.

[Lord]

That does not apply in newbie games and opens, for obvious reasons.

There are no Godfathers, no Framers, and no Paranoid Gun Owners. Therefore mafia gain nothing from directing the cop. As opposed to town.