C9++ Discussion

[Magua]

Night Start - more and more we're trying to phase these sorts of games out. Is it necessary to do this out-front, if only to give insight to the 7-letter code that created the setup? Is a Day Start a bad idea?

I don't think this matters enough. I prefer Day start.

*Inhibited Scum Reveal

(Mafia flip simply "Mafia" and nothing else)

- this is the rule that many mods manage to bollocks up, in fact I went the whole Marathon edition of this game without blinking an eye at this rule. I guess the logic is that if a Maf Spy is revealed - so many Town roles can get confirmed, perhaps? Is that an issue?

This is totally an issue. If you remove this and someone flips "Spy", you have just mod-confirmed that there is at most one Vanilla Townie in the game. Think about that. Even someone flipping "Roleblocker" mod-confirms there's at most 3 VTs in the game.

*Millers - should they be naive or told explicitly? Is the 1-3 randomization a good thought, or should it be some fixed quantity? (Fiasco said 3). My thought: maybe even just have it be Sane Cop + Miller - seeing how strange a Miller Backup Roleblocker is?

Naive. Otherwise a D1 Miller claim (confirmed by a flip, if necessary) mod-confirms that there is 1 and only 1 Cop.

*Insane Cop + Godfather, what's the result? Does GF always show Innocent, or does Insane always show the opposite (Guilty)?

Insane should show the opposite. Godfather should not be penalized for being investigated by an insane cop.

*SK's "Spy Immune" function - does he have to be notified? Can it just be sent in amongst his actions and left alone?

I would prefer this to be something the SK sends in ("I want to appear to Spy as blah") rather than something they're notified about. Spy-Immune SK already has mod confirmed information about the setup (no VTs); they don't need to know when or if they've been scanned by the Spy.

*Innocent Child - confirm D1 or confirm when they ask to be confirmed by PM?

D1 confirm.

*Can this become 13P to adhere to the new Mini standard? Does it have to?

Mini standard is a maximum, not a requirement. Changing to 13 players solely because you can seems silly.

[Magua]

] Spy-Immune SK already has mod confirmed information about the setup (no VTs)

That's not right.

Yes, I conflated the number of Ts in the setup with the number of VTs.

Insane should show the opposite. Godfather should not be penalized for being investigated by an insane cop.

You think they should show "Guilty", you're saying?

For an insane Cop, yes.

Consider if the sane and insane cop both scan someone, and both get the same result ("innocent"), then that's mod-confirmed Godfather right there, regardless of whether it's revealed on death.

And it's silly to me that a Godfather would have to worry about being scanned by an insane Cop.

[Magua]

Andrius, you'd save everyone a lot of reading if you just posted "I agree with Magua".

Except for that bit about millers. Aware millers => claimed D1 millers => mod-confirmed cop.

[Magua]

<3

[Magua]

Why not make a single C give a one-shot cop instead?

I was thinking this (well, I was thinking "Even-Night Cop" instead, but, close enough), but it produces another problem: Someone who receives a 1-shot Cop PM knows there's no other cops in the setup.

Like, if you're a 1-shot Vigilante, you know that there's at least one more Vig in the setup. If you're a Backup Doctor, you know there's at least one Doctor. Etc. But there could be more. If you make "C" a 1-shot Cop, you're telling them that any other Cop claim is fake.

Other possible solution: Replace "Insane Cop" with something else, like "1-shot Sensor." Make the C table as so:

C = 1-shot Sensor
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop + 1-shot Sensor
CCCC = 2 Sane Cops
CCCCC = 2 Sane Cops + 1-shot Sensor
CCCCCC = 3 Sane Cops

Godfather does not show up as mafia on Sensor's count.

Alternatively:

C = Insane Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop + Insane Cop
CCCC = 2 Sane Cops
CCCCC = 2 Sane Cops + Insane Cop
CCCCCC = 3 Sane Cops

[Magua]

If you're just going to have one unaware miller, I would definitely keep the idea that any role (except for mafia or the Cop; *maybe* exclude the SK if present) could be the miller.

[Magua]

SK either has Investigation Immunity or doesn't, so they're ineligible for Millerhood.

Point. So miller goes to non-Mafia, non-Cop, non-SK.

[Magua]

If it's naive, 1 miller (or a set amount, whatever) is fine.

If the miller's are aware, it must be a random number (1-3). If it is not it is too prone to mod-confirmation (and can't even be safely fakeclaimed by the mafia until at least one town miller has already claimed).

Really, though, the more I think about it the more I think miller is a hack. Replace 'C' with Insane Cop, move on with your life.

[Magua]

Alternative proposal. Ditch sanity, have a 1-shot cop, like 1-shot vig.

C = 1-shot Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop + 1-shot Cop
CCCC = Two Sane Cops
CCCCC = Two Sane Cops + 1-shot Cop

[Magua]

Cops are therefore guaranteed Sane, then? Even with a GF and potential Investigate Immune SK, that's a big Town-skew. Cop guilties are 100% and cause scum to spontaneously combust.

Kaboom.

I would argue quite heavily that a 1-shot cop is less powerful than a sane cop and any number of self-aware millers, and is probably less powerful (though it'd be a closer call) than a sane cop and some number of naive millers.

Or to put it another way: sane/insane only requires one lynch to confirm sanity, or 0 lynches if you simply target yourself N0.

[Magua]

Do try to keep up - we don't have an N0 as of now, and a supremo primo numero uno rule when discussing PRs is that no action can target itself unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Don't insult my intelligence with snarky comments like "do try to keep up." It's fucking rude.

Secondly, you can assume there's a "No self-targetting unless it says otherwise" rule, but assuming is bad, and it's not in the rules (nor is standard, as far as I'm aware; I've certainly not seen it applied outside of protective roles).

I see it now in the C9++ rules.

One lynch that may never come at all, but becomes more likely as the game goes on. That's part of the fun.

Comparing a 1-shot Cop and a Cop who does not know if he is Sane or Insane, if the Cop gets:
1 investigation: 1-shot Cop is more powerful
2 investigations: I'd say balanced (Sane/insane cop either has at least one target dead, so can figure out sanity, *or* knows that two players are of the same alignment)
3+ investigations: Sane/Insane Cop

Both Millers/unknown sanity Cops are crutches because a regular Cop is too powerful. Miller is *very* problematic as self-aware, for reasons already discussed. Miller as naive is probably better from a statistics standpoint, but still has the problem that if a Cop claims guilty on you and you claim VT and it's not lylo, you're getting lynched (and then the Cop is getting mod-confirmed).

Sane/insane is preferable, but again is purely a crutch because a single sane Cop is too powerful. An insane Cop with three investigations may as well have been a sane cop when all is said and done. It will prevent some early claiming (certainly prevents a D2 "I have a guilty" claim), but really has no effect D3 or later.

[Magua]

I'll defer to yabbaguy, unless he doesn't pick this up in a week or so.

[Magua]

Just decide how you'll handle the miller and you're good to go. The only major change in that list is Day start instead of Night start, and I think that's a good one -- the others are just consistency things.

[Magua]

Yes. Let us know how it goes.

[Magua]

It's usually run as an Open, and is structured so that mass claim is of limited benefit. I guess you could run it as a Theme, but I just see little point in doing so compared to figuring out which roles you want in the Theme yourself.

[Magua]

I approve of every single one of these changes.