Secret Society Mafia - Game Over

[MagnaofIllusion]

Look, I'm all /confirm and stuff.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: David Xanatos

Can't fault that logic, I am always plotting something devious.

Self voting in RVS ... a clear scum tell.

This is a good wagon people ... jump on board and see whether we got cheeky Mafia or cheeky Werewolf!!!

VOTE: DavidX

[MagnaofIllusion]

These last five posts all lack the necessary vote for David.

I am disappoint.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, link me all the games scum self voted in RVS. And that you caught. Second part optional.

Nope. Both parts are optional.

--

Wanted to vote, Lowell but that is to good to not vote. Vote MoI. How do you know (or why do you even believe) there are werewolves here? Selvoting is insane, or a gambit or a joke for someone who is playing with fire. I don't think a scumtell.

I think it because I have the capacity to read and pay attention. Since you apparently lack that let’s look at Mod Post 0 –

II. Setup Rules and Information
1. This setup contains both Mafia and

Werewolves.

a. They have daytalk.

Reading is tech.

Now I have to go decide whether this is actual laziness on the part of Stephan or him playing the “Newb who doesn’t know the set-up card” as scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually, both parts aren't optional. You think self voting is scum secret tell on locks. I say prove it. You cant just say "no, but sheep me anyways".

No, I totally can!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lowell and malpascp have yet to pick up their Role PMs. If they do not do so within 24 hours, I will replace them.

This is an absolutely shocking turn of events. [/sarcasm]

[MagnaofIllusion]

This guy is confirmed town for Day 1.

Um, no.

--

I am really puzzled by this game. There is still not much going on and I don't feel like answering or questioning anybody which is unusual.

I see this and my gut says “Kill it with Fire”.

Because this basically a more active way to effectively keep out of the limelight and appear active while appearing to not totally ignore the thread (like the RVS only players have).

Why zero comment on my DavidX post and the subsequent response by Magister and others?

Why zero comment on the Yos – Baby back and forth?

UNVOTE: DavidX
VOTE: Otolia

--

5 bucks says that both these guys are town.

Not sure how strong the Zang tell is in a multi-scum game but calling a early game dust-up Town-Town sets my radar abuzz …

MoI claimed that self voting was a scum tell.

He appeared to be serious about it.

Just coming off Death of RC are you serious about the bolded?

--

Just a little preface to my reads throughout this game. I give a group of people and a percentage of either town or scum.

My first one.

Between Magister, Magna, and David X, 1 is anti-town.

It's just something I do for my playstyle, and I like to share my group reads.

Don’t ever recall seeing you do this before. How about providing some completed game links that demonstrate it is 'part of your playstyle' …

It's not a "Well, David said THIS, and that means one of them is scum!" Just look through the 2nd(?) page and look at how they interacted.

The problem I have is not that you’ve called out a group (3 players) it’s that you can’t elucidate any reasons more than vauge “Look at them interact”.

I’ve certainly been known to call out a particular group of players and say “1 on these must be scum” in the past. But it is always based on something specific – in Amrun’s Death of Reaper Charlie it was the quick wagon on Meran for role-fishing.

--

Against a player less aggressive, this might be good playacting by scum, but here, all of this feels too reckless for it to come from scum

It’s not the attack element that I find possibly scummy but the “I don’t know the set-up element”, specific to games where some or all elements are open (in this case that there are Daytalking Mafia and Werewolves).

Look at Umbrage’s Jungle Republic, which is a complete open set-up. Both Neil and Sloth (both scum) played the “Oh, I don’t understand the set-up” card early on. Both ended up being scum. It’s definitely a newb-scum play which is why I haven’t written off Stephan as Town yet.

--

I actually reread page two. Magna, do you still want to speed lynch David X for self voting?

No, but this isn’t really a valid question as it assumes that I actually wanted a lynch of DavidX. It should be clear by my lack of driving for votes (yes, my “I am disappoint” comment is a joke) that I was trying for three things …

1. General reaction fishing (which I got)
2. Reaction from David (which you’ve managed to kill, thanks)
3. Shortening RVS

Self voting in RVS isn’t a scum-tell but calling it such is a great way to transition to actual play. I think I recall that happening in iLord’s Mini game based on Dr. Horrible.

Those players like Whisper, EC, Wraith, Iceguy and Otolia all have dodged making any comments about actual game activities. All of them are now on my radar.

Because, DarthYoshi, BB was the only non-muffin player to post above me on page three, and not comment on anything that had happened on page two.

The question in my mind is … why only BB from page 3? There were several people (listed above) on page 2 that completely ignored my reaction test. Why not call out any of them also?

Are you scum???

Speaking of fluff questions that don’t advance the game … you are doing exactly what you attacked BB for?

No scum is going to claim scum. And you just attacked BB for asking the same pointless question (correctly, IMO) of Muffin. You called it fluff posting that doesn’t advance the game.

And you do it yourself? So are you guilty of the same crime?

@Magister

– Why have you dropped your line of attack on Otolia. You voted for him for not providing content (while attacking you for the same aka Cognitive Dissonance) and actively said at 133 that he looked like scum faking activity. Why not return your vote to him there? I personally think it was a valid push.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first with Magister –

I notice you dodge the question about your guilt / hypocricay of calling out BB for asking hallow questions while then turning around yourself and doing the exact same thing. Can I assume you are agree that it is scummy?

And as for BB, I was on the next page when I asked my question to him. Turning a page is actually pretty significant psychologically.

That’s a pretty absurd stance. Turning the page indicates that 25 posts have been made.

I also don't think you were joking with you DavidX wagon, considering I asked you a question determined to see if you were joking, and if you weren't back up your accusation and responded by telling me you wouldn't respond to it. I assume you said this because it should be self evident how "scummy" self voting was. And, you appeared serious enough about the vote until called out on it, at which point you transitioned into, "well, I just wanted to get out of RVS guys!".

Well now I have to consider if you are scum who is attempting to be serious in this assertion or not. Because your stance is that “Bandwagonning to get out of RVS is bad” is rather stupid.

I directly ignored your questions (and had fun baiting you about it) because immediately answering would have removed any element of my reaction fishing. Sorry, you aren’t important enough for me to care about your 'epic scumhunting' on page 2 when it interferes with what I am attempting to do. True story.

I haven't dropped the line on anyone.

Is this a backhanded way of calling me scum by the way?

I have about five or six people who I'd be happy to place a vote on, and just because you think otolia is the bee knees doesn't mean I'm going to drop everything to vote him.

The bolded is indicative of scum paranoia, IMO. Now I have to go back and look at Town versus Scum Magister games for this sort of behavior.

You’ve basically been bouncing around your vote here, there and everywhere without developing any sort of cohesive push on anyone. Thus I'm questioning you about it. You know, just like you are questioning me. It can't be scum-hunting in one direction and not the other.

That list is:
Magna of Illusion (yourself)
Otolia
StefanB
Sorgster
Baby Spice
and others.

Hmmm. Why isn’t BB on this list after all the accusations you threw his way? Why is BabySpice on the list when your only direct interaction with her is mentioning her in RVS?

--

Yes, but I've been following MoI with amusement. Self-Voting isn't a scumtell. Not even in RVS, given it was a joke-vote, and was blatantly so. That seemed to me to simply be an attempt to start a bandwagon from nothing, which fell flat on it's face. FoS MoI

1. So your stance is that bandwagonning (or attempting to get one going) in RVS is scummy?
2. If my behavior is scummy and worth an FOS why isn’t it a vote since you unvoted yourself here?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1: When it's the fourth post of RVS, yes, yes it is. RVS is when things are unstable, and Scum can't find a path to go down. It's in their interests to end it early.

Ok, so attempting to end RVS early is scum motivated behavior? Just as Magister asked me ... please link me to all the games where scum tried to end RVS early. And then those you caught them doing so. The second part is optional.

2: Because I'm considering various things. There's no sense putting a vote down when I'm looking at a few options, as I'm moderately likely to move it no matter where it was placed.

Look at your ISO. The only person you commented on in a negative way is by post 147 is me. You fence sit on Baby (bad reactions but too many sheep) and basically say nothing about Magister.

Why are you afraid to actually vote me?

--

I already answered your question.

Please point me where you did so. I must have missed it in your many, many short posts.

I asked him a question once for an answer I was curious about. For you to take than and leap to "all the accusations you threw his way" is trying to make me look bad for something I didn't do.

Really? You asked him on page 3 why he didn't comment on page two. You think the following posts that came later aren’t an indication of suspicion?

What the hell sort of question is that?

pedit: Sorry mod!

Actually, it was pretty absurd. Its fluff questioning. No one is claiming scum unless they're undertaking a massive gambit, have lost their mind, or are delusional. Your question doesn't advance the game. And, You actually dropped your absolutely imperative line of questioning of zmuffin after he told you to sod off. Doesn't feel right.

Are you scum???

Both of these are direct responses to BB. So your saying “All I did was ask him a question once” is a lie.

That post was exceedingly mis-representative and bad, Magna.

Nope, but feel free to go to the old ‘Wiki Tell Well’ and repeatedly use a word “misrepresent” that doesn’t apply.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes. Because not putting down an instant vote when I'm in the middle of considering other things is bad. Mhmm. That doesn't follow any logical path.

There would be no harm in you casting a vote for someone you think is scum just because you are ‘looking at other things’. Especially since I’m not nearly anywhere close to the point where a vote would potentially cause an inadvertent hammer.

In your case what I am seeing is someone gunshy to actually vote me (while not actually having a vote down)while calling me scummy. Which is certainly not a Town motivated play.

But what ‘things’ are you looking into and why aren’t you asking anyone else questions?

--

Magna, I already quoted where I answered your question twice. Go look.

And, yes, I asked one direct question to BB. The second was rhetorical, and I explain the third as restatement of his own ridiculous question. Misrepresent is saying "you did X and that is scummy" When in fact I didn't do whatever you talking about. You've done this a few times.

So your explanation is that every interaction with BB after the first question isn’t actually scum-hunting just telling him his question is ridiculous and acting in the exact same maner. Scummy fluffery it is then.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what PeregrineV is talking about, especially

since I already clarified what David X is doing.

DavidX thinking is pretty reasonable actually. Voting him over that is very weak.

Bolded for emphasis … how exactly do you personally know what DavidX is doing again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't get the fuss over DX not voting.
Why does he have to?
The fos indicated his suspicion.

The biggest element - FOSes don't show up on Vote Counts. Later on VC analysis may enter the picture. Calling someone scummy and refusing to vote them while not actually having an active vote is more indicative of someone wanting to keep their vote profile low, which isn't something Town worry about.

It's one of the reasons why I'm not voting Magister right now ... he's show he is more than willing to be free with his vote. It's not a sure-fire Town tell but is enough to want me to keep digging.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Yos

– have you ever played with BabySpice before? If so was she Town or scum (or both)?

Huh? Why, what's wrong with getting town reads on a couple of people in the early game?

Nothing wrong with having Town-reads (although this early I have some doubts about how you are generating them on such limited content personally) but I am absolutely allergic to people who call early game dust-ups Town versus Town.

I’ve seen it used by scum way too often and it is a pretty viable scum tell for me. I can explain in full more if you care.

(shrug) I said that the way you worded the post, it appeared to be serious. I don't know how serious you actually were or not, and I'm not especially concerned about it either way, to be honest. I only mentioned that your post appeared to be serious (IE: wasn't worded in a joking way) as part of my analysis of ML's reaction to it.

Of course I didn’t word it all ‘hahah funny’, that would have killed any reactions I got out of it. Better to let people make that assessment themselves.

That said based on Death of RC you should know that when I am actually suspicions I don’t drop a vote, go ‘Tehehe I’m not explaining’ and basically ignore it going forward. Even when I end up being wrong (like I was about Sensfan there) I don’t let things go that easily.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1) CONspiracy: I've played at least one game with this guy. He's more capable of doing more than agreeing with and just voting the most popular wagon in possibly the most lurky and lazy way possible. "I agree with X about Y's case". Not only is that not scum hunting, that's not even --trying--.

Vote: CONspiracy

How does the fact that ConSpiracy is in a hydra with Rayfrost (as Global Warming) affect this read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

BS/Yos seems overreactionary town on town being fueled by at least one scum.

Second Zang-tell spotted ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bogre’s weak hop onto the Baby wagon at 194 is noted for future relational reference.

I agree that Global’s late Miller claim and the incomplete nature of it (actual kind of Miller) doesn’t earn them Townpoints.

--

As yosarian2 would say '(shrug)'

Is there any reason it is difficult to get votes right here?

Absolute flaunting of his non-scum hunting lurking play and buddying to Yos.

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!

--

From Lost Mafia - UK and Ironhead are tied right now.. I think it's likely that one is scum, but definitely not both. Unfortunately they both lie at about the same scummy levels for me right now.

The other 2 games that are finished, I hadn't done it, as I replaced in later in the game, and it's normally an early game read.

So you specifically went out of your way to say it was part of your playstyle yet you can only dig up a single example from your completed games as evidence it is a solid part of your play?

And you still can’t elucidate why 1 and only 1 of us is scum based on page 2 interactions in a multi-scum game?

--

I still don't like the lack of real content posting from the person above. And what's a Zang tell?

I call an early game “Town versus Town” read when there is little reason to have a very strongly constructed read a Zang tell. I stems from my first encounter with scum (Zang in particular) doing it in ooba’s Stardust Smalltown Mafia.

--

The secret society rules: they act as neighborhoods and you can induct new members. By definition, this makes having your town reads out there instead of just in your head a potential issue. Freedom with your reads in that way can lead to bad things.

Actually I disagree completely. Given the nature of the Secret Society mechancs that Magua stated on the first page it stands to reason that public Town reads will aid in scum-hunting down the line as players make induction claims to various societies.

Also see Yos’s response.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Yos

– You never answered (or I missed it) …. have you ever played with BabySpice before?

Jakalope’s

241

qualifies a vote-worthy to me. Especially in light of the “It’s part of my meta argument” which he failed to back up in a meaningful way and his inability to show why he thinks one of Magister, DavidX and I are scum.

Speaking of DavidX – still waiting for any indication at all about any of the ‘other things’ he was looking into, or any actually scum-hunting from his slot.

--

1. No, I could blend in more easily by voting. I don't need to 'obey' you. Baby Spice isn't worth lynching today and TheJakalope wagon doesn't seem very serious. When a serious wagon appears, I'll vote.

First off you are missing the point … I’m asking why it is so hard to get votes on you because you are scummy.

The last sentence embodies why – you are happy to sit in the background, do no scum-hunting, and just hop on whatever wagon you see fit.

2. I'm buddying with yos because I used his title ? I never played with you but I didn't know you were some kind of Mafia fanatic. My conception of Mafia includes also some fun, that was considered as the fun part. I hope you can understand that.

Ah the “I’m having fun defense”. Well I’m having fun to – by playing to my wincon and looking for scum. So please don’t assume I’m just going to leave you alone when you say “Hey, I’m having fun”.

--

What scum is worried about a VCA at this point? :/
Though, wanting to keep a low profile is valid. Maybe he is scum that did'nt want attention caused by vote-hopping. I'll meta a bit later.

Scum have to be always cognizent of their votes. True story.

--

I would have. After doing that iso though, even with a few fluffy posts he seemed less and less like scum.

Then riddle me this Batman … why is your vote still parked on Magister if you don’t think he is scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your superior argumentation convinced me to vote for someone I do not want to see by tomorrow.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Ok I see. So you actively refuse to scum-hunt. You say you aren't voting because you don't see any compelling wagons.

Yet decide to drop a vote on my while I am calling you scum because "You don't want to see me tomorrow".

Not because I am scum. Because you don't 'like' my play-style. Aka a Policy lynch.

@EVERYONE ELSE

- Please explain to me exactly why Otolia does need votes? How does

1. Refusal to scum-hunt.
2. Active lurking.
3. Voting on policy reasons after explicitly saying he was waiting for a valid wagon

come from Town?

More Otolia votes Please!!!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

@EVERYONE ELSE - Please explain to me exactly why Otolia does need votes? How does

EBWOP -

this should read : explain to me exactly why Otolia

doesn't

need votes?

The bolded is the change and it is rather significant.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What I really want is to see you shut your annoying mouth. That's what I want.

Is it annoying because I’ve caught you for what you think are bad reasons?

I know you feel entitled to lead the town to a marvelous victory because

you are so full of yourself you can't possibly imagine yourself not being right

, but you might want to tone it a bit. Just for the sake of your head, I worry about your health.

So despite never having played with me before (which you acknowledged earlier) you’ve suddenly made the bolded sweeping judgement about me. Lovely. I’ve never said I’m never wrong. Even the best scum-hunters aren’t 100% accurate. That said I’m on a pretty good hot-streak lynching scum (BTTF Mafia, [REDACTED]) as of late so excuse me if I don’t go second-guessing myself based on AtE.

As for the ‘worry about your health’ I’m not sure whether to take that as a “My scum team is definitely NKing you tonight’ threat or not. Regardless you should gander and my title and realize it probably doesn’t much matter in a multi-scum game if I ‘lay back’ or not.

1.

I never refused to scum-hunt. I did stated that I didn't want to actively scum-hunt. You could say it the same, and in a sense it is but it doesn't mean I don't scumhunt.

Affronting you might prove itself more useful than not, maybe i'll get many people to voice their opinion and maybe some votes/vote-hop and so on.

The bolded is professional splitting hairs. Yes, I do say they are one and the same.

So your plan is to get other people to voice opinions by choosing not to scum-hunt and making scummy votes? And that you’ll get some votes to analyse?

2. I guess I'm active lurking in the sense that i don't contribute directly to the progression of the game.

Insert face-palm pic here …

3. It's not policy reasons, it's an extended RVS. A 'you are annoying vote'. You already showed us that you are quick on jumping to conclusion but that's far-fetched even from you. If you didn't really get the non-seriousness of this vote, you might as well say it. Another reason to lynch me would be because sarcastic people are more difficult to judge but you didn't mention that, did you ?

Extended RVS? Um, no.

This ‘Oh it was a joke vote’ doesn’t cut it. ‘

Please eat rope!

If I were you I would worry about Oversoul, compulsive poster of the first class, you is awfully quiet here when he post ~6 posts in another game. Trying to blend in in a large game is harder than voting once per day until someones remarks it.

And here we have the classic “I’m not scummy for what I am doing … but look over here Player Y is scummy for doing exactly the same thing” scum self-defense. If he is scummy for having no scum-hunting why aren't you?

Oversoul replaced in on Wednesday. He isn’t even due a prod yet. If a week into his tenure in the game (next Tuesday) he has an ISO filled with non-scum hunting like yours I certainly will consider him as possible scum.

More Otolia Votes Please!!!!!!

--

Whisper is an intelligent player and IDC whether she's town or not, we are NOT lynching her unless she gives off very scummy vibes.

Please elaborate on how you’ve divined that Whisper is an intelligent player from her 3 post ISO that is as spares as Otolia’s on content.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI : There is nothing I want to answer to you right now. If I continue to argue the way I am doing it right now, I'm going to end up insulting you and that won't help anyone.

Ok, continue to sit there as votes amass on you. I’m not opposed to that plan.

You basically force me to engaged in a childish pride contest by screaming 'MORE OTOLIA VOTES PLEASE !!!!!' every post. I gave it to you and you will feel dumb for five minutes in almost every possible ending of this contest and you are going to move on afterwards

No, I predict I will not feel dumb in 100% of all scenarios. I’ve called you out for not scum-hunting and your responses have been, in rough order

1. I can because I want to.
2. Hell sometimes I actually play but here I want to sit back and do nothing because [insert softclaim of PR]
3. You are annoying here’s my vote
4. You are annoying and stupid and stuff.

Note what didn't happen at any point? Scum-hunting.

I suggest you tone down the witch hunting and start your motivation analyzing tool on why you I face you that stubbornly and we can both move on untouched. Your choice.

I don’t see any Town motivation in your play as it has existed so far. You may continue to call it a ‘witch hunt’ if you wish … I call it scum-hunting.

Here is what we are going to do :
• You stop screaming 'MORE OTOLIA VOTES PLEASE !!!!!' every post and I'll answer every questions you and anyone ask me.
• You unvote me and I'll invest more time into this game.

Um this is funny. Earlier in thread you basically told me “I don’t have to bow to you”.

What makes you think you are in ANY position to tell me what I’m going to do? I’ll continue to call for your head and campaign to get you lynched if you play as scum. Posting your demands isn’t going to make me think you any less likely to be scum. Your behavior has changed not one bit.

I think the line used by Faraday is "We don't bargain with terrorists".

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday AM for my usual weekend family duties

--

Does this bug anyone else?

Otolio, do you think MoI is town or scum?

I was going to post saying this bandwagon on Otolio is wierd, but with the bolded statement I might just join it.

Actually given the set-up and that we have two separate Mafia factions I’m not sure why bugs you. There is no way Otolia can absolutely know I am Town aligned (just not whatever his faction is aligned).

So what’s stopping you from voting him? Looking to see which way the wind blows?

--

I don't think I have. Why, do you have meta on her?

Well, I’d say yes … on gut feel I don’t see this as BabySpice-Scum. She chose to come out swinging at both Magister and yourself. Not exactly what you would call soft targets.

When I have seen her as scum (Stars Aligned 3, Atomic Mafia, That Bastard Game I Don’t Talk About) she spends much less time attacking targets and making soft statement in the early game (and sometimes Day into it, or as long as she is allowed to lurk). She almost universally avoids what I call Hard Targets (experienced scummers with reputations) unless they are under fire from other strong scummers. Does a good share of buddying.

Convexly when I see her as Town (Battle for Olympus) she is more willing to actively spread her vote around and is willing to call out players who attack her actively.

In fact her position that you are misrepping her here is very reminicant of a similar accusation (incorrect, mind you) she made against me in Battle for Olympus.

So in the end I don’t see this as scum BabySpice. It’s possible she’s changed her stripes but until I see something that sets my scum-dar abuzz she’s in the Townish pool for me.

--

@MoI- David is still brooding over the act of placing a simple vote. What does that say to you?

I'm not feeling the Otolia as scum thing either. Scum doesn't walk in and stick their [REDACTED] into a blender to start the game.
If you're voting him for annoyingness, then fine. But in all cases, lynching scum is preferred.

It says to me David is hesitant to actually try to push a case on me for fear of the response. It’s one of the reasons I am leaning scum on him.

Um Otolia didn’t stroll in an stick his BLANK in a blender intentionally. It just got put there when I picked up on his scummy play.

--

@MoI : So be it.

I proposed what I felt was a reasonable agreement that could eventually be discussed, and instead of trying to push further your case and trying to corner me (considering that from your PoV I'm scum), you showed self-confidence and refused the challenge.

Though it's entirely my responsibility if I am in the current situation, not showing comprehension and willingness to discuss calmly is your mistake.

I’m not sure exactly how the bolded makes any sense. I’ve clearly indicated that I’m going to continue pushing you as a scum suspect and your ‘plan’ didn’t provide any avenues for that in the first place.

As to calm discussion – I’m completely calm. You are the one talking about being angry and throwing insults. I think you are projecting your rage and emotions on to me as a defensive tactic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Otolia (6): MagnaofIllusion, StefanB, sorgster, Ghostlin, Oversoul, DarthYoshi
Baby Spice (5): whispersilk, Yosarian2, Alabaska J, Wraith, Bogre

IceGuy (6): Maxous, zMuffinMan, Global Warming, TheJakalope, StefanB, EtherealCookie
Otolia (5): MagnaofIllusion, sorgster, Ghostlin, Oversoul, DarthYoshi
Baby Spice (5): whispersilk, Yosarian2, Alabaska J, Wraith, Bogre

These two vote counts are being mermorialized for potential future relational tells.

Also ... Good Luck Magister.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Does anyone have any Bogre as Town history to share. Because his dinking around throwing down soft questions looks very much like what Otolia was doing and I know Bogre does it as scum.

Too many lurkers this game – DavidX, Oversoul, Bogre, Whisper, EC, Wraith, Alabaska, Otolia

Has to be scum hiding in that pool, probably a couple with one from each group.

--

I'm not going to unvote BS until I get a better read on her. If she gives me a reason to think she might be town I might consider moving my vote. She hasn't, yet.

So you are going to park your vote on BS and focus more or less solely on her while giving lip-service to other scum-hunting?

is normal meta for this guy?

Muffin prides himself on the ‘Mastin’ style of play. Just keep that in mind when assessing him.

--

Explain why you think he'd be this blatant about it if he was scum.

Yes, I am saying he's too scummy to be scum. And this sort of stubborn, dickheaded Otolia is something I think is more likely to come from him as town.

Why would he act so scummy as scum? Perhaps because he isn’t very good at the game? I don’t have any direct experience with Otolia to have any baseline to judge. I just see someone who was active lurking, wasn’t scum-hunting and who reacted scumtastically when called on it

Have you ever seen Otolia scum?

--

So, let's do some vote analysis:

So you are doing vote analysis without a single flip?

If I would be scum, I'd have been jumping on at least one of the Baby Spice/Otolia wagons.

Useless self-meta is noted.

Of course it does, I just missed it before. I correct myself: you've expressed suspicions of Sage before. Still doesn't explain your late vote change though.

So you here are fully admitting that you were incorrect in attacking Stephan for making a vote on Sage without reasoning.

But you then just move the goalposts and continue to say it was scummy for him to vote scum? So you are saying a player who calls someone scum but moves their vote to another scum candidate is scummy?

And why would you worry about Iceguy moving his vote from Otolia who you don’t see as scum anyway? That doesn’t make sense.

I'm giving up on trying to argue with you idiots - you can safely continue your "IceGuy is scum because IceGuy is scum" circlejerk.

Oh I see … you pretty much have been posting in a scummy manner and get called on it so everyone voting for you are idiots …

--

3: There's a diference between accusing and arguing. Example: saying "OMG, {whoever} is obv-scum because {opinion} end of discussion get on my wagon or else you're scum too!" instead of saying "OMG, {whoever} is scum because {opinion} and {possible quote} anyone else wish to add to this? I could be wrong." Most likely the second one is the townie. MoI, I believe, is not the second one.

Ok, since I see you floating this I have to ask – what is your Mafia experience?

4: Finally, the Whisper thing wasn't important. She's got a very good gut instinct, and can make a great case. That's all. Plus, I hate being in a game where everyone's killed all the smart ones.

So you look at the playerlist and Whisper is the player you chose to single out as “a smart one” that you were worried about losing? Despite no content from Whisper at all?

--

The Otalia case is water tight. Unvote. Vote: Otalia

The timing of this is noted for future relational tells if Ice flips scum.

--

I find it interesting that you couldn't bring up to say anything of the IceGuy wagon at all, when it recieved quite a few votes.

I think the intent of his post is to suggest that the Iceguy wagon is interesting given it has basically appeared out of no-where to eclipse the Otolia wagon while Otolia was V/LA.

But let’s test that theory –

@Sorg – what are your thoughts on Iceguy?

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here I am, after 'borrowing' a stranger's wifi. I selected a few people to talk about.

So selecting 4 people constitutes catching up with all important events in the game, as you put it?

What is ‘suspicous’? That’s what you called David X.
You are Netural on Baby.

So the only actual reads you provided were Iceguy is Town and StefanB is scum.

In a Multi-Scum team game you could only generate 1 scum player?

Overall his play is far more consistent than most of the town.

Is consistency a Town tell (that’s what I think you are saying)?

The vote is anti-town in the sense that it could be used on someone who I thought was scum, but it should be understand as a way to answer to MoI's

witch hunt.

I’ve noticed your penchant for specifically using loaded language as a way to discredit and undermine people. The bolded is a clear example – It clearly isn’t a witch-hunt. Your play was scummy and you were being pushed for it. You even acknowledge this (indirectly) in a post I quote later on.

Generally use of language in that manner is something I see scum doing far more than Town. Here’s a further example

You still don't know how to count up to 4 ? Because I remember writing 4 different questions.

You could have said “Hey, you dodged question 3 please answer this” But instead you chose to use denigrating language to convey that point.

I have a history of being targeted D1 for joking and not being pro-town during the first stages of the game. However it's very difficult to defend against that because you can choose not to trust me.

So you acknowledge that your play as displayed here isn’t Pro-Town and has gotten you pressure in the past. Yet you reacted as if my suspicion of you wasn’t warranted.

Those two trains of thought are not compatible, aka Cognitive Dissonance.

In this post, I was fishing. I am a straightforward way of scumhunting :

pick a target, question him

. But I'm not very good at discerning scumtells, thus I have to get another kind of hints and for me it is motivation. I have a good sense for what people could and couldn't do in a given situation, and though it's not enough in itself, I find it useful.

The bolded is basically a complete fabrication. You didn’t question me at all in the following which you quoted –

Here is what we are going to do :

You stop screaming 'MORE OTOLIA VOTES PLEASE !!!!!' every post and I'll answer every questions you and anyone ask me.
You unvote me and I'll invest more time into this game.

PS : I fear this might be interpreted as scum trying to negotiate but at this point, it's better than heading in the wall.

Not a single question there. Several commands … not questions. So basically you are fabricating an explanation (which makes no sense, BTW) after-the-fact trying to indicate you were “gambitting”.

Not buying it. I’ve seen enough. Vote stays.

MORE OTOLIA VOTES PLEASE!!!!

--

@Iceguy

– You dodged answering questions I put to you in 351. I’m requiting them here –

So you are doing vote analysis without a single flip?

So you here are fully admitting that you were incorrect in attacking Stephan for making a vote on Sage without reasoning.

But you then just move the goalposts and continue to say it was scummy for him to vote scum? So you are saying a player who calls someone scum but moves their vote to another scum candidate is scummy?

And why would you worry about Iceguy moving his vote from Otolia who you don’t see as scum anyway? That doesn’t make sense.

--

Not really sure why you're trying to put a negative spin on that; I suppose this is just you attempting to pressure me to unvote BS, based your claimed town meta-read on her?

Actually I was reaction testing you for a specific tell I find longtime (aka here longer than me) Mafiascum players tend to give off as scum.

--

If they are scum together nobody is gonna be 'buddying'

Um go read Amrun’s Death of Reaper Charlie Large Normal. Specifically look at CTD’s behavior towards his partners Hydra and Mr. Buddy Lee. Then come back and tell me it never happens.

--

1: 100% MeatWorld and proud of it. (Okay, I played one non-MS online game and am in the middle of a few MS games, but no completed MS yet).

Well this explains why the game-theory posts you are making seem under-developed in a forums Mafia context. Noted.

--

Secret society? CULT OF CTHULU?

Don't you see how this is related?

In a game where Cults are specifically forbidden (in MS terms) yes it isn’t anything but fluff.

--

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

Nice, very softly played AtE (my playstyle is Town).

I think Yos has handled the “what constitutes a scum-tell and poor Town play” discussion with Whisper well enough it doesn’t need revisted.

I don't want to get lynched for playing the way I feel most comfortable playing.

If your playstyle (as Otolia’s claiming his does) causes you to receive pressure and possible be lynched you have two choices. Either accept that fact or alter your playstyle to a manner that isn’t perceived as scummy here on MS.

--

yeah THIS POST stands out to me a lot. i agree; this looks like scum jumping off a scum lynch the first chance he gets

Then why aren’t you voting Iceguy? Your vote is parked on BabySpice.

I smell possible scum-partner to Iceguy setting up 'links' to exploit after Ice flips scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't want to get lynched for playing the way I feel most comfortable playing.

I've never received pressure from anyone due to my playstyle. Sure, a few people have commented that I can appear scummy at times, but I am rarely voted, and I've never been lynched. So I don't think I'll be changing anything right now, tbh. But thanks for the advice.

These two quotes do NOT mesh.

The first says you thought you might get lynched for playing ‘as your feel comfortable’. The second says that your history doesn’t indicate that to be the case.

I feel that your “Here’s what I do” post is even more scummy now seeing this.

Why bother to go out of the way for the elaborate post when historically you don’t receive pressure for playing that way? Doesn't compute from a Town perspective.

FOS – Whisper.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Iceguy

- Dodge the questions I have asked you 1 more time and you get my vote immediately.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Otolia
VOTE: Iceguy

You don't get to dismiss my questions out of hand.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup those are absolutely serious questions. I'm asking you to defend your behavior that I see as scummy in a manner that makes sense from a Town perspective.

You can keep my vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That first sentence formed part of a much larger statement, and was it directed at Yosarian after he had stated he lynches people who lurk. It was followed immediately by me telling him that he was welcome to check my previous games. I didn't want him to vote for me without at least checking my town meta.

You do understand that actively saying “Check my Town meta” unprompted means you are aware of your Town meta and thus craft your game towards it, right?

Furthermore … why were you worried about being lynched without significant votes on you when there are strong, dominate wagons currently active?

Taking a snippet from one of my posts and quoting it out of context in an effort to paint me with the scum brush is pretty lame.

You claim it is out of context. Does the rest of the post not move along the same themes? You were specifically replying to Yosarian regarding his inquiry into the reasons for your large “Hey, I play like this post”. Your response to me is in regards to the exact same topic – your motivations for posting that list in the first place.

It absolutely applies when I see two statements that directly conflict.

My post was not elaborate. It was simply meant to be a humerus way of introducing myself after being awol from the site for nearly a week, and to give people an idea of my slightly strange way of playing the game. I think muffin and BB are the only two players that I've completed games with, so I don't expect anyone else to know my meta.

I don’t care about your meta. If you play in a manner I feel is scummy you will get suspicion for it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point add Jakalope to my list of players who need rope or bullets. His play is basically content free while he’s active lurking like a boss.

His actual suspicions (where he actually directly calls someone scum as opposed to a group of people saying 1 in 3 is scum) are EC and Iceguy (as demonstrated by his votes). Then we get this –

It's time for your favorite type of read guys.

EtherealCookie, Iceguy, one is scum. Not both.

So one of the players you suspected and voted for suddenly isn’t scum?

Prodge.

Ghostlin is town.
Oversoul is likely town.
DavidX is leaning scum, but Iceguy or Otolia is today's lynch.

Hmmm … why is suddenly DavidX leaning scum when he’s been V/LA? Does that mean in your mind Ludi and I are Town given your 'one is scum' stance on the three of us?

Why is Otolia a valid lynch for today when you’ve said not one thing about him in your ISO?

--

Scum don't think you're scum. They know who scum are.

Once again this absolutely isn’t true in this set-up. Scum only know their partners and do not know the members of the opposing faction.

I agree with your point about survival instincts being more likely to come from scum.

--

Where did I say I was worried?

Using the phrase “I didn’t want to be lynched” in regards to playing as you usually do when you are under absolutely no real pressure shows worry.

Where in that post did Yosarian inquire into my reasons for my "hey" post?

It is implicit in the nature of the discussion that he is questioning your reasons for posting the original "Hey" post.

As far as I'm concerned, we were debating lurking and lurkers and whether or not it was a scum tell, and not specifically my reasons for my original post. In fact, the point that I lurk on day 1 in all my games, was just one aspect of my original post, not the entire basis for it.

You are splitting hairs here. And the fact remains … I have serious doubts about the motives for your original post (where you described many scummy actions you ‘always do’) when you claim you rarely get any significant suspicion for said playstyle. What Town purpose do you have for explicitly bringing it up then? I can’t see one.

I can see a survivalist motive which, as discussed above, is more likely to come from scum.

Do you care about anyone's meta?

The better question is “Do I care about anyone’s self-meta”? The answer is No. Bringing it to my attention in any active manner then I will not give it one scrap of attention / consideration. Meta is the weakest and least helpful tool in the scum-hunters box, IMO.

--

I am not someone who wanders around town pointing fingers at everyone just because he cans - that is what I feel you are doing. I can't look at everything and make sense all the time. This is why I am trying to limit myself. Now you could question why I choose these persons but instead you criticize the results.

Specifically limiting the amount of reads you make and players you suspect gives you a much wider range of ‘suspects’ in the future. The more information Town players provide on reads the better.

I understand why you chose three of the four players (dominant wagons or under most other suspicion other than yourself). Thus I didn’t see the need to ask you why you picked out DavidX from the lurker pile.

A player able to keep his composure and producing the same kind of play all the time is less likely to be scum because he doesn't have to lie. At least that's how I understand things.

Disagree. The best scum players are incredibly consistent in whatever playstyle they show. IMO you need to look at the motivations behind play as opposed to the consistency.

English isn't my first language

so I can't really measure if it's 'loaded' as you say. It is a witch hunt when you finish all your posts by 'MOAR OTOLIA'S VOTES' as a provocation when I already stated it displeased me. I guess your defense for purposefully doing that is that you are scum-hunting

Well the bolded could explain, to some degree, why I find your posts perhaps more charged with language choices. Of course given you don’t have a location listed I had no reason to think it wasn’t your first language.

As to pushing your lynch … I don’t apologize for driving a lynch I think is good. You may be displeased by that but I don’t really care on that end. My goal isn’t to please my scum suspects and accommodate their wishes. It’s to successfully get a scum lynch.

That was sarcasm. Already covered.

You probably need to understand then that your ‘sarcasm’ isn’t being conveyed properly (which I would think you would be aware was a possibility since English isn't your first langauge) and looks insulting and scummy. If you choose to continue being ‘sarcastic’ then you will reap the rewards.

You are doing the same thing as my president, pointing fingers at everyone, provoking anyone that could hinder you and try to control the flow. I am wary of puppet masters ...

Provoking anyone who could hinder me? I call bullshit on that.

I’m making the best of my limited time here in the game (and it is going to be limited, that I have no doubts of) to hunt scum and make my suspicions known. Your dislike of that really doesn’t concern me.

--

What happened to your must kill Otolia with fire stance? Are you okay with lynching either Ice or Otolia?

I think it is pretty clear he’s scum to me. That said I moved my vote to Iceguy to demonstrate my seriousness about his dodging of my questions. I only have on vote. I can’t be everywhere at once.

[MagnaofIllusion]

wait, no, alabaska seems to be agreeing with Bogre that... StefanB is scum... but still has his vote on Baby Spice from 15 pages ago.

This is the important part to note Muffin.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this juncture we are getting close enough to deadline that we need to give sufficent time for a claim so we don't get a No Lynch at deadline.

People need to get Iceguy to L-1 for said claim or REALLY move a wagon to compete with it.

I'd support Otolia, Alabaska or Jak as viable alternatives if they can be driven past Iceguy today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA as usual from 4pm EST today until Monday AM EST for weekend family duties.

Regarding Muffin’s ‘case’ on DarthYoshi at

467

– Muffin if you wanted to really take a dent out of my mild Town read on you mission accomplished. Darth is one of the few fairly solid Town reads I currently have. Hell, I’d go as far as to say that I think he has half the chance of flipping scum of any other Town read I have.

BBmolla earns serious scum-points for

468

from me.

@BB

– Are you an Espeonage alt perchance?

I agree with the general sentiment that StefanB’s reads at

471/473

are weak. His scum reads happen to completely coincide with the two most dominat wagons. Not a single scum mention outside Ice / Otolia.

@Stefan

– What are your reads on Alabaska and Jakalope?

Maxous appears to basically be active lurking with

480

and his other recent fare.

--

Liking and agreeing with Ghostlin on most stuff. Will re-read Sage, but am sheeping for now.

Unvote.
Vote: Sageamagoo

pedit: lol--yes and yes!

I looked through your ISO. Hmmm, why is there no mention of Sage before this post?

--

I'm likely not going to get a good grasp on this with the free time I have before deadline. I don't want to vote blindly though, so I'm likely going to remain non-voting until I get up to speed. If I get an unexpected time to read further, I'll be dedicating that time to here though.

Any and all vigs need to be pointed in this direction (or any killers wanting to claim a Town looking shot). There is absolutely no reason for a slot to not place a SINGLE serious vote during an entire day, especially one that actually goes to deadline.

--

Out of the top wagons, I'd probably vote Ieceguy over Otolia at the moment.

The time for mildly talking about moving your vote to a viable wagon is past Yos. That you've been this passive about pushing a scum candidate so far doesn't fill me to the brim with Townie vibes.

--

Otolia seems to be getting heat for one post only:

Since you are the most likely lynch at this juncture I’m going to reserve judgement on this post.

Ordinarily I would say that you don’t have any actual comprehension about the actual reasons Otolia was voted (namely that he had ZERO scum-hunting content and was actively lurking, his refusal to vote seriously and then placing a vote on someone he says he didn’t even think was scum) but given your impending flip I could certainly see this as a way to potentially forge a false link to a non-partner if you are indeed scum.

Defense is useless - I experienced it myself when I was the town wagon. Everything the wagoned player does is pressed into the framework of "he must be scum".

I don’t believe this from you at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That was actually my sole goal. Actually, everything I've done in this game has been for the sole purpose of getting reactions from you. You are, after all, the only player that matters in this game full of plebs.

Aha ... 'wit' and 'sarcasm'. Noted.