Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[Cephrir]

Hey there, Open 326. Rereading.

[Cephrir]

So these are basically my thoughts as I read through the game, originally they were just my notes so they aren’t terribly read-friendly. A lot of it won’t be relevant now but I may as well post everything just to show my thought process. I apologize for adding to the wallfest that has been this game.

By the way, this is my first game in years, so I may be unaware of site meta and such. I also don’t know who most of you are (but I am aware of Thor’s reputation, which I point out because it is relevant to the way I treat him Day Two).

---Day One---

The beginning of this game is really painful. I’m really just glazing over through these disgusting walls and just becoming mildly irritated at the authors. You are all useless.

Amrun 141 is very town. I like how he sticks to this even though no one agrees with him.

Thor’s entry post is really good. From the way he talks about his discussion with Robo I feel like their discussion definitely took place and was genuine. Around this point, I’m starting to see how glowball gets lynched today.

Something about Supreme Overlord 198 rubs me the wrong way. He sort of criticizes Thor then hops onto the general assumption that Thor is town without any other comment. I agree with Amrun 200. SO 202: there is nothing wrong with having strong town reads and expressing them strongly! And, drat, Thor said exactly what I just typed and then some in post 204.

glowball wants to lynch for info rather than scumminess and won’t let Maruchan defend himself? Wtf? And, later, refrains from doing the one thing a townie is supposed to do. Why are you even playing?

NS does absolutely nothing to defend himself.

Thunderwall 256 gets townie brownies.

glowball continues to selfdestruct. It’s a good thing I wasn’t in the game D1, as I probably would have tunneled glowball and gotten really abrasive. I have very little patience for this hyper-emotional whiny crap.

lane 354, thunder 357, Amrun 359, SO 370 are town.


---Day Two around here I think---

The people with latent suspicions on saulres are lame and aren’t scumhunting.

Lane 573 sounds like he knows mothrax and glowball are town; if this is part of the reason for his lynch I will be less critical of it but other than that I’m not seeing it yet

SO’s Trow vote is useless, what is he even doing.

Why isn’t mothrax dead yet? I mean that in more ways than one- yes, I feel that he is scum and should be lynched, as he too has done exactly nothing, but I’m also curious as to how there seems to be a lot of sentiment against him and yet lane somehow gets lynched today. Admittedly I haven’t seen the whole day yet but I feel like there will be scum on the lane wagon.

Auckmid I am so sick of your ‘lol sorry guyz reading up post soon’ posts. Get replaced already.

I like lane 653, he’s actually proposing reads that aren’t the same as everyone else’s (saulres town, thor neutral), though I don’t particularly agree at least he’s thinking.

Timing of SO’s lane case is a little suspect (kinda OMGUS) but I think that could be a coincidence. I don’t really like the case, I didn’t see much that was original, but Hoppster says later he thought it had some original points, so maybe I just glazed over during that post. A few posts later he refers to the glowball wagon as ‘(almost) completely town-driven’ which strikes me as off.

I feel like lane just can’t win this argument no matter what he says. I know hindsight is 20/20- I admit that I would have been on the glowball lynch, though, so I feel I’m entitled to express skepticism of this lynch.

- wifom-lover (at least as scum) who uses 'doc' as base for setup-discussions -> knows the setup?

Awful point. In his example doc was the only power role that it made sense to use. I don’t like the tone either, it sounds like scum throwing something out just to see if it sticks.
Other points in his post are nothing revolutionary but also not horribly scummy. Point #1 in Maruchan 690 is good; Trow was misrepresenting him a little.

Amrun is rubbing me wrong this page but I still think he’s town. The only issue I have with him is his certainty glowball would flip town, but it seems to be meta-based, and plus lane did the same thing. He’s also pulling a bit of a glowball in 703 which is obnoxious.

Shit, lane gets lynched because of Robo? It’s going to be hard to pick out the scum on the wagon if everyone just sheeps him. I hate post 761, and I think it is actually a little scummy. He doesn’t metion any of the town things lane has done, sets up for future suspicion of thunderwielder, mentions his other head might disagree with him (giving him a chance to backtrack later). He criticizes lane when he finally gives a list, claiming it isn’t enough even though it’s a pretty solid wall if you ask me. Late in the post he says ‘this is a good reason for me to vote lane but not enough’, then without giving any further reasons he votes lane at the end of the post. I’m assuming this post is what turns the tide against lane. This post has taken away a lot of robothor’s accrued townie points for me.

And of course now my top townread is going to vote lane. I really thought I’d be able to find scum on this wagon but perhaps I’m the one being unreasonable?

i dont understand why if we can all agree on mothrax, we just vote him? doesnt make sense to me. what do you trust about mothrax? hasn't even done anything or many posts. you may say my scumhunting sucks but at least i'm trying. mothrax slot is pretty worthless. but i guess mothrax scum can slide by again on my own point, of my flip will give up way more information than mothrax's flip. just like i was hoping the glowball flip would do.

THIS. The fact that mothrax has been the competing twice in a row, has been scummy and useless, and has not been lynched yet SCREAMS to me that scum haven’t been voting him or pushing him. This is almost as important to me as his actual scumminess.

RT comments that he thinks lane’s PR comment was designed to get his buddies to work on a mislynch? This seems pretty dumb to me. I think it was actually a towntell; scum would be more careful than to say something like that. And lol, he’s only allowed to have 3 scum reads since there are 3 scum? Bullshit.

Oh dear, lane is exploding. One reason to not do this as town: any further lane votes are now justified so I can’t get much out of them. Oh god and a re-self vote. Really?

Votes on lane pre-explosion: SO, RoboThor, Amrun, thunder. Unfortunately all of them tried pretty hard on this lynch, all have made cases on lane at some point, and a couple are my strongest town reads. But I think there have to be scum in here and I think Supreme Overlord and RoboThor are the best candidates.

---Day Three---

Did saulres ever give a ‘strongest town read’? I think that would be a good indication of who he saved, but I don’t see it. Yeah apparently he didn’t crumb it. Bleh.

Tragedy’s entry post blows. It also doesn’t particularly seem like he read the thread. Pointing out townreads isn’t buddying. The only scummy thing Tragedy successfully points out is connections to mothrax- so why not lynch mothrax? Maybe I’m biased because I’ve had Amrun town all game, especially after the post-day-2 gloating.

Trag next post confirms he’s just iso-ing each player in order. Really? You voted Amrun without having read the other players?

I agree with Amrun 824.

I have no idea how Trow could read Tragedy as town after those shit-tastic posts.

Tragedy proceeds to call mothrax scum with a lot of certainty, then leaves his vote on his shitty Amrun case. mothrax/Tragedy scumteam +1.

Tragedy makes what I assume is an unnecessary VT claim (‘same as ever’), implying he prefers to play scum, yet he is pretty interested in this game.

[

Tragedy - (although fakeable) believe to have townslipped with auckmid-read

This makes zero sense. Obviously he just didn’t know who he was replacing.

I like Quilford’s first few posts, they make me feel better about his slot and move him firmly onto neutral ground.

DeltaWave, is that really all you have to say upon replacing in? “Defense of my slot, convinced by argument for the wagon most strongly competing with mine, Vote Tragedy”? Really? Also Hoppster is your third suspicion just for being suspicious of you? Um, 1.) a lot of people are suspicious of you. 2.) That is such OMGUS it’s unbelievable.

And now we have a stupid omgus vote on thunder. Right after he was not one of your top three suspects! I smell scum implosion.


And now quick thoughts on each player, which also serves as my tl;dr. Players in each category are in a specific order, with the lowest being the scummiest.

TOWN

thunderwielder

- Absolutely my best townread. The whole game he's been saying the things I wanted to say, albeit using more words than I would have used.

Amrun

- I've had a strong town read here since the initial lane case and agree with him pretty frequently.

Ninja/Hoppster

- Seems pretty reasonable, generally. My read here may develop further but at the moment I have better suspects.

NEUTRAL

SO/Quilford

- I waffled mentally about SO- at the time he replaced out he was about null leaning scum, but I like Quilford so far.

Trow

- I've had a couple issues with him and he hasn't said a whole ton so this means a little more.

SCUM

RoboThor

- Hated the Lane-vote post; I feel he used his influence to help lynch lane and he hasn't gotten any flak for that today. Early in the game I was worried I wouldn't be able to tell if they were scum because the hydra dynamic sort of automatically seems genuine to me, but their relative inactivity has helped me out a bit. He's slowly moved down my scumlist since day 1.

Tragedy

- Probable scum. The way Tragedy entered the game really bothered me, particularly the way he voted Amrun seemingly before even reading anyone else's posts.

NS/mothrax/DeltaWave

- Here's the thing. I am really bothered by the way mothrax escaped lynch days one and two. I feel like scum picked the other wagon both times. Also, there have been three players in this slot, and I have wanted to lynch them all, independently of one another.

I see my vote is already on DeltaWave, but just to make it official...

Unvote, Vote DeltaWave

[Cephrir]

Have you legitimately seen nothing scummier in the entire game than thunder's three posts between 969 and 976?

[Cephrir]

Oh, yeah, I guess I never actually said anything about that Thor thing. I wrote some things out of order. But basically I was thinking that he's playing differently than in other games, not just in terms of the lack of participation but also how he sort of just isn't as persuasive as he normally seems to be. There was something else to it but I can't remember what it was right now.

On Quilford: Yes, I know, but somehow posts like 961 and 970, and there was another one I don't feel like finding, sound really genuine to me.

[Cephrir]

It also explains this remark.

Shit, lane gets lynched because of Robo? It’s going to be hard to pick out the scum on the wagon if everyone just sheeps him.

[Cephrir]

This is the only game I'm in at the moment. Refuse to join more now and lately (Since..You know...Laptop Problems. But I'm on my bro's computer.) It wasn't unnecessary- I

was

at L-1, and was pretty much asked to claim anyways.

Well, I didn't realize you were at L-1, but I don't see where you were asked to claim before that, and if it was intended as a straightforward claim I would expect you to make it in a less roundabout manner.

Trag next post confirms he’s just iso-ing each player in order. Really? You voted Amrun without having read the other players?

The first scum belief that pops up in my mind, sir. But I do ISO people in order 'cause that's how I roll. Maybe I should remember not to do big ass walls like that anymore and read the whole damn game and make things short and reasonable, I guess.

I don't see how you could be sure enough to lay down a vote without reading the entire thread, though! Amrun's statements probably look a lot better in context, and I'm not sure how you could have played any other games without knowing that context is important. I do respect ISOs once you've read the thread.

@last part which I failed at quoting: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with trying to defend his slot, but I really expect a fresh replacement to bring more than that to the table.

[Cephrir]

uhmm....
That was my point.
After reading the scum-qt she probably would have known that.
That combined with the time it seems to take her to read-up, knowing 'which power to hunt for' is available in that qt, makes it unlikely she`s going for a 'townie perspective-read' before checking in with the team.

I think I understand what you meant, but I don't agree that it's a 'townslip'- she could easily have not read the scum qt until later, or Auckmid didn't post in it, or she did it on purpose, etc. I'm not really sure what you mean by the last part.

- 1 no: the doc example was not the only thing that would make sense: in fact the entire -fakescenario- is bad
- 2 if i posted that to see if it would stick, why did i continue after it wouldn`t

1- If he decided to present his point in that fashion though, there wasn't really a better way, and I believe he was specifically saying doc claims should not be trusted, not PR claims in general. I'm not saying I agree with him (and it's a moot point now anyway), but I think that was the idea.
2- Well, there are reasons you would do that as scum, but I'll semi-grant you that point.

[Cephrir]

RoboThor because he's alive (yes, being deadly serious here).
Amrun and Trow because I don't have strong town reads on them like I do others.

I do have a similar read on DeltaWave to the ones I have on Amrun and Trow.

I don't feel like providing analysis because this game is too long.

This is a pretty lame excuse. I'm sure you've played longer games. You're not going to convince anyone with this.

[Cephrir]

Doesn't matter whether I've played longer ganes, it matters whether I've replaced into longer games.

Laziness is scummy.

Also MrTrow just scumslipped pretty badly so I suggest you focus on that.

I'm waiting to hear his response, but you have a point.

Also, DeltaWave, you can hardly accuse someone else of being evasive, you've ignored so many direct questions. My post 993, for example.

[Cephrir]

No power role here. Carry on.

[Cephrir]

I'm not sure what to think about Amrun's hammer. Part of me wants to say it's way too ballsy to be deliberate, but on the other hand he was pretty widely considered town, so perhaps he could get away with it. It's hard for me to be too critical because Delta was probably son to be hammered anyway and I don't think there was any way we were not lynching him.

With Thor flipping town, I think Mr. Trow and Tragedy almost have to be scum. I'm not even going to try to call the third yet, obviously it's someone who's been totally evading my scumdar- barring a counterclaim it literally has to be someone I marked as 'town' yesterday, so I'm going to need to rethink things. In a way it's too early to start looking for associative tells, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a waste of time.

Mr. Trow having been roleblocked is definitely a possibility. The block could help explain the overall lack of interest from that slot.

[Cephrir]

The Amrun-"WHOOPS ACCIDENTAL HAMMER" is null, though (pretty sure of that). Scum wouldn't have needed a fake-accidental-hammer to get DeltaWave lynched.

This.

[Cephrir]

Given recent revelations, I'd say Mr. Trow is my top suspect, followed by Tragedy. I'll need to ISO everyone else to come up with the third, but with any luck today and tomorrow will give us some information, and if we're really lucky Quilford might catch them for us =P

[Cephrir]

With Thor flipping town, I think Mr. Trow and Tragedy almost have to be scum.

How?

I'm having trouble imagining another scenario. I mean, it's possible that we're all totally off base, but I don't really think so.

I guess the order of nightkills does sort of suggest what Quilford is saying... The fact that I'm mentally waffling about this is suggesting to me that I need to reread/ISO everyone, or at least almost everyone. I don't really want to wade through any more walls for this game than I already have, never mind walls I've already read.

[Cephrir]

So I reviewed some ISOs. I refuse to reread thunderwielder, for the moment I'm going to trust my earlier thoughts on him- even procrastinating homework can't motivate me to read those walls again. I've probably said a lot of this already, but I need to organize my thoughts and I may as well let everyone see them.

~Relatively brief thoughts~

Amrun

- Catch-up vote lane post is still really good, goes against the grain of the town at the moment, and she rides it all the way to an eventual lynch knowing she is a driving force behind it and gloats after the lynch. As much as I don't think the case was all that great, scum just don't do this. Also, he doesn't constantly harp on the lane case and talks about other subjects while leaving her vote on lane, which I like for some reason.

The only thing I disliked before was the reaction to the glowball wagon but it's not all that bad, and I'm a little biased, I think, against anyone who figured out glowball was town because theoretical-day-one-me was lynching the ever-loving shit out of her.

Around this point Amrun admits lane did something town, another example of not tunneling. And even if Amrun flipped mafia I would still believe that hammer was an accident. So basically this might now be my strongest town read, which is a reason I dislike Tragedy so much- I just don't see how anyone could get scummy intent from these posts without looking really, really hard.

Hopster

- Posts like 295 strike me as town. Posts like 331 ('give me more town points') do not. I have a note about frustration with glowball being town, but I don't actually think so now that I'm typing.

I don't see scum building a case on mothrax when it is already clear that mothrax or glowball (both town) is getting lynched (VC at this point- glowball 5, mothrax 4, and glowball is imploding). It's theoretically possible scum-Hopp wants to keep glowball because she was easy lynchbait and refusing to scumhunt, I suppose.

He starts tunneling really hard on mothrax and never shuts up about it. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I'd be a hypocrite if I read into it because I have a tendency to do this as either alignment. Or, at least, I used to, but I haven't been this game. Go figure. Anyway, this part does read like town believing really hard they've caught scum to me.

Half these day two/three posts read like drunkposting. I guess that's frustration? Weird. Most recent posts = town points, so I would overall still call this a pretty weak town read.

Trow

- The first thing that comes to mind is 'I'm not sure if Trow has said a single original thing this game, and if he has it wasn't very memorable'. This may not be true, but that's how I feel about it right now. He has a weird, extremely reactive playstyle that bugs me. I may do some meta at some point.

The Maruchan 'case' is pretty lame. I know I'm biased but it doesn't even seem like he's trying that hard. Reads post sound slike exactly what everyone else is saying at the time. Admittedly there was ample reason to believe in and be convinced by the town's overall opinion, but he's just not adding anything useful. Possibly the first interesting thing he says is that, out of nowhere and with little backup, he says he has a town read on Tragedy. I don't see it in the last few posts and I'm in the preview window so the answer might be obvious, but

@Trow- do you still think Tragedy is town?

The elaborated case on Maruchan practically sounds like a case for Maruchan being town, and is more summary than content. The thrown-n summary makes him tough to read. The only redeeming feature for me of Trow and Tragedy right now is that they aren't all over each other. Are they scumbuddies who think they can somehow get someone else lynched today for the win? Or have they not figured out yet that they need to bus each other? Or are the playing to exactly the sort of WIFOM argument I'm invoking right now? Or of course, maybe only one is scum, which is a possibility that scares me.

Tragedy

- Thinks Amrun's town reads are 'buddying' as his first comment? This makes it seem like he knows he's building up to an Amrun vote from the start of post 819. This is not the way town would present their thoughts. One comment implies he wants to lynch mothrax, and some of his Amrun case seems to be assuming mothrax is her buddy. Apparently Amrun not wanting to lynch NS is buddying, lol. The last few points here are basically complete BS.

Hoppster summary- Tragedy says he's stating the obvious even tough he isn't. Wait, mothrax is town now? A lot of these points seem kinda random to me, basically just flinging around vague ideas with the assumption that the poster in question is probably scum. She says something is town approximately once. Remarks like 'Hmmmm.' bother me. I don't have much to say about Tragedy except that most of her points suck.

The one point in her favor is that she's sticking to her supposed Amrun scumread. Why would scum attack such a hard target? I have a counterpoint. It's pretty clear that Tragedy hadn't read the thread when she made her first few posts, and didn't yet know the general consensus was that Amrun is town. After making the blind case and voting Amrun, she basically has to stick to her suspicions, otherwise I would be even more all about lynching her.

So. I still think Trow may have been RBed, I think it could explain Auckmid's failure to ever catch up, and even if this wasn't the case, I can see him as scum. The theoretical Tragedy/Trow scumteam is a bit odd. I don't know if their interactions fit with this. But I'm sure at least one of them is scum. Tragedy reclaims the award of top suspect after my little reread, I dislike her day 3 posts even more the second time. I don't want to get too focused on these two, but it's going to take a serious case full of things I never noticed to get me to vote anyone else.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir:
Your 'bias' is indeed understandable.
The (too) easily forgotten point, maru came up with reasoning against the lane-case (claiming these to be unrelated),
yet being willing to hammer someone who according to the same logic could have been the doc (same lane) is not.

Townies can get frustrated and bored, especially bad townies like Maruchan. It's also possible he knew lane was going to be lynched anyway, as I think he was starting to blow up at that point.

I've been really busy as of late, hence my lack of usual walls, haha.

No, it's okay! I like you better this way!

Also, I am very interested in seeing Trow's answer to that question.

[Cephrir]

Massprods don't have to be quite that mass, ya know. I posted two hours ago.

[Cephrir]

Given recent revelations, I'd say Mr. Trow is my top suspect

Cephrir gets scum points for sounding amazingly opportunistic here.

What? You claimed to have roleblocked him on a night there was no kill, and I was already suspicious of him...

Also, @everyone posting on page 44: Shut up.

[Cephrir]

Tragedy is still scum. Waiting on MrTrow with minimal patience.

[Cephrir]

If you thought it was obvious you knew there was a claimed roleblocker, why would you say thing like this?

How are you still keeping this up?
How do you know i`m not the roleblocker unless you`ve noticed the point (i attacked delta for 'assuming/knowing there was no roleblocker', if not this what gave you the 'he isn`t the roleblocker')

So either you have deduced i`m not the roleblocker by other means (if so please show me, using things prior to 1027 of course)
or you have read my motivation for the delta-slip argument and thus know the base for 'my slip' is incorrect. (in which case, why are you using it?)

[Cephrir]

I had a thought that I should be looking at which non-Trow and Tragedy players seem to be leaning towards which, because they're both so scummy I can hardly make head or tail of them. But thunderwielder and Amrun are waffling around just the way I am as our two suspects get scummier and scummier and seem to practically be competing for my vote. Quilford hasn't said much since he was cleared, and Hoppster is kind of fading into the background. The fact that no one except MAYBE me seems to have a strong preference one way or the other is making me suspect once again that thy're both scum and both pretty much giving up. I'm really close to just laying down a vote right now, but I suppose I'll hold off for input from Quilford and/or objections to me voting.

[Cephrir]

First of all Trow, we all read the entire sentence, and it still sounds wrong, and you might have gotten off the hook if Delta was scum but he wasn't.

When I mentioned potentially voting, I was thinking Tragedy. But damn, post 1107 is awful. Since when am I one of your suspects, Trow? You know what bugs me so much about his play? He never says who he suspects except when asked! These me/thunder suspicions came totally out of left field as far as I can tell. The thing is, Trow just ISN'T SCUMHUNTING. EVER. Following this realization, I have to say I would vote Trow at this point. Because even though I think Tragedy's suspicions make no sense and I think his entry was totally opportunistic, at least he's effing trying.

Actually, you know what? Screw it.

Vote: MrTrow

.

[Cephrir]

I should be able to be fairly active today, so I will keep an eye on the thread (PS, I'm invisible), but I don't think it will prove relevant.

[Cephrir]

Oh, fine. I was getting impatient and was pissed off by Trow being dense, I suppose I wasn't being rational. There's no reason not to wait for a consensus except for my frustration. I don't agree with anything Trow-related you just said, but I don't have time to explain it right now, and since I have to rush off I should probably be unvoting anyways.

Unvote

, but I'm not happy about it. You really need to get a clue about this game though, you aren't helping and are totally wrong.

[Cephrir]

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?

Yes, obviously Trow's intent is to point out that he thinks DeltaWave has scumslipped. What I'm saying is that he may also have scumslipped in the process. Read the first part. "Someone is assuming RB will fail". This implies that he knows there IS one. A townie would have said 'Someone is assuming we don't have a roleblocker", not "someone is assuming the roleblocker will miss". The latter suggests the existence of a roleblocker, and when he said it yesterday, it could also have been a roleblocker-slip, which is sort of what thunder is saying- but now we know he isn't, so it's suspicious.

1) I knew that there was no reason for a scum to claim roleblocker, certainly not off the top. Unless they were to No Kill and then pre-emptively claim roleblocker in order to force a quick lynch before the real roleblocker could state the case--but that's the only situation where it seems like it could be beneficial. (Really, what's the scenario here? Does a Quilford scum really need to make a false claim, only to draw a counter claim from the real roleblocker and out himself? I don't think so.)
IE, yes, me calling for someone to counter claim was me hoping that there was a scum out there silly enough to do so, so we could catch one easily.
2) I am only now considering the comment as a slip, since the other slip turned out to be wrong and more importantly there's a 50% chance that you are scum (just based upon night actions alone), so I'm following up every lead I can and trying to see if there's scum motivation. I am not completely disregarding the fact that we were wrong about the other slip, but looking in to see if there's any value to the other side of the story. The defensiveness that is starting to present itself is making me think that there is value to the other side of the story.

1) This isn't half as ridiculous as you're making it seem. Trading a non-contributing scum for a confirmed-town Roleblocker is a decent trade for scum at 4:3 lylo, as town remain in lylo the next day with the two stronger scum-members alive and no confirmed town alive. I'd do that.

I think not. It makes sense when you talk about it as a general scenario but it would not happen in this game. So, you create a hypothetical scumteam here where Quilford is the least-townie member. But there were multiple players in way way way more danger of getting lynched than Quilford, who was nowhere near anyone's radar. If this was the case, Quilford wouldn't need to claim roleblocker, as scum would have won already. So yes, it isn't ridiculous when simplified the way you simplified it, but in context it is completely ridiculous.
Given this I no longer need to respond to point 2.

I really don't like the way you presented that post. Taking the situation out of context in order to defend Trow rubs me the wrong way. And also, you say I accomplished nothing pro-town by voting, but I didn't accomplish anything anti-town either. Trow already has three hypo-votes and Tragedy hadn't hypo-voted- do you think he's going to waste his vote on Amrun? Obviously, whether he's town or not, he's going to vote Trow. Plus, I'm town and I'm absolutely certain at least one of thunder and Amrun is town and quite likely both of them, so that's at least two town votes for Trow. I think you saw your scumteam going down in flames and thought attacking me was your only chance to save them.

I'm not revoting yet, but I'm doing it purely to give Quilford and, I guess, Tragedy a chance to lay down their hypovotes, which I'll let happen just for the information it might give us tomorrow. Congrats, though, you just became my third suspect.

[Cephrir]

I said 'might give us tomorrow'; as in 'will give us if there is a tomorrow'. That isn't a slip, bro. Excuse me for being a little fed up with the slow pace of this game, it feels like no one's trying except me.

[Cephrir]

Yes, if there is one. There's no way we can not gain information from it. Everything gives us information.

[Cephrir]

Do I need to? It's lylo.

[Cephrir]

I am very certain that he's scum, but I never claimed to be 100% sure. Even if I was assuming there was a tomorrow, I might as well assume that, because otherwise we've lost... I really don't understand what the problem is.

[Cephrir]

It's not, though. First of all, I didn't mean it the way you think I did, but I can see you not believing that. The other thing is, though, Trow isn't 100% getting lynched today. So even if we were both scum, that statement would not be a slip, even the way you interpreted it, which is wrong. So again, I'm not sure what the problem is.

[Cephrir]

Well I mean it makes his lynch seem pretty likely. But unless he had literally already been lynched, nothing is ever certain. It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned because I know what I meant, and I can see there's no point trying to convince you I didn't have inside knowledge, even though there is just as good an interpretation of my sentence that wouldn't have led to this conversation.

Wow, your reads suck. I don't know how you can criticize the glowball lynch, she was absurdly scummy. And denying the read could have been scum motivated if, say, she had given up on not being lynched (which she obviously had) and didn't want to give out any info.

[Cephrir]

Maybe they were planning on revealing it later to distance, but changed their mind? Maybe so people would ask exactly that question? Anyway, it sounds like you're arguing that glowball appeared to be a rational player. She obviously wasn't.

More importantly, and less based on stupid hypothetical situations that are probably my fault they came up, what Amrun said.

[Cephrir]

Lets see what we have:

Since when am I one of your suspects, Trow?

uhm lets see what someone you do listen to has to say about this

Post 867 MR TROW: This is the first time he deviates from Maruchan. ISO #21. Just thought I'd note it.

Who did you replace again?

I didn't realize this was still held over from Maruchan, considering you haven't mentioned me (or much of anyone for that matter) as scummy a single time since I replaced in. You really can't go THAT long without mentioning your top suspicion and expect people to remember. Still, the fact that you didn't bring it up again until I voted for you is scummy. Also, in a LYLO situation, there is no way we should have had to go this long without knowing who you would vote for when it came down to it.

Or to be 'more hands on':

"Someone is assuming RB will fail". This implies that he knows there IS one.

This is absolute BS, there is no way i can imply that i know that

THERE IS A ROLEBLOCKER

, while accusing someone of

KNOWING THERE ISN`T A ROLEBLOCKER

.

You can, actually. I know that your intention was to accuse someone else of knowing there was a roleblocker. The way you phrased the first part of your accusation did exactly what you describe. I'm not going to bother expounding on this any further, everyone else has seen it and already formed an opinion of whether it was a slip, and it really doesn't matter whether you understand the logic. It's not like that's the sole, or even primary, reason for lynching you. At least not in my book.

I won't comment on the rest at the moment because most of it is directed at thunder, and I can't really answer for maru's actions although I have tried to some extent, and most importantly I have to get up in 6 hours. But I will say that it looks to be as filled with craplogic and sentences that don't actually make any sense as most of your other posts.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir:
Did delta make a statement that could reasonably be read as: he assumed the roleblock would fail (as in there will not be a succesful one)?
Is it logically possible he 'assumed' this because he 'knew' there was no-one who could even try?
Did he actually know this?

And now 'the big one': Does a 'no' on question 3 have any impact on answering question 1 with a truthful 'yes'

1. yes
2. I don't understand this question
3. no, obviously
4. No
My own question: Does any of this have any bearing on whether you scumslipped?
5. Nope!

I don't know why everyone suddenly thinks I'm bussing. Is this based purely on my 'slip'? If it isn't, I'd like a case I can answer to because we need to not lynch me tomorrow. IF THERE IS A TOMORROW. See, if I typed that out the way I normally would, and in fact absolutely did at first, you'd be on me for 'slipping' again, even though this is actually just the way I type when I'm pretty sure about something. Oy vey.

[Cephrir]

Yes. I'm not saying that the pointing out of the scumslip was a scumslip. I'm talking about the way you put the first part of it. It's not the action itself that was a slip, but the way you did it. Getting pretty tired of trying to explain this.

[Cephrir]

your reactions to the increased pressure seem like Scum caught for the wrong reasons

This this this. I meant to say this before but I don't think I ever actually did.

@ Cephrir, my suspicions of you come from a connection case to Mr. Trow, in addition to Maruchan's previous erratic playstyle. Less from you bussing him, more from him bussing you. Sorry buddy.

You think his stupid OMGUS shenanigans indicate bussing? It seems to me more like exploding scum lashing out at me for catching him, same as he's doing to you. Unless you mean that he was bussing Maruchan, which I can see you assuming, because his case on Maruchan was so awful. Personally, of course, I think he just can't fake-scumhunt to save his life, and that case was so bad because he was just looking for a mislynch (it should say something, btw, that Maruchan was already considered relatively suspicious- I don't remember how likely his lynch looked at that point, but this may support the previous sentence). Being attacked for someone else's actions with regard to a predecessor is even more irritating than just being attacked for their actions. This reminds me why I used to never replace. >.<

[Cephrir]

Can anyone tell me how these 2:

do you know we don`t have one?

This implies that he knows there IS one.

are even remotely compatible?

Did you really just do that? You got upset with people for only looking at the first part of your slip-sentence, then you not only conveniently leave out the part that was being discussed, you also quote me out of context? Is that really what you're going with?

[Cephrir]

Listen. This slip thing. I don't even care about it. I know it seems like I do, because I keep talking about it, but really I'm just being argumentative because that's how I roll. I'll be happy to just pretend to concede the point, even though I actually don't, if it means we can move on to something that is actually relevant, because it's a pretty small part of the reason I want to lynch MrTrow. So on the note of not talking about it anymore, in other news:

atm I am really not too bothered about who gets lynched tbqh

Um, what?

[Cephrir]

I'll give you the tl;dr version, at least for now. In no particular order:

1) Never scumhunting until maybe today. Not counting your 'case' on Maruchan because:
2) Maruchan case sucked, sounded like trying too hard to find him scummy. Like seriously, read post 669. And then 697 is just a bunch of quotes that somehow add up to a case, the only moderately scummy thing he does is suggest there may be a doc in what he LABELS as a hypothetical scenario.
2b) You've also stuck to it since mid-day two when you replaced in. You seem to stop suspecting me when I replace in and move your vote to DeltaWave, then today suddenly it pops up again after basically not mentioning me day 3.
3) Your reads up until today have been pretty much the same as everyone else's at all times, and you say almost nothing that hasn't been said before. Most big catchup posts are more summary than content as though you expect others to pick out what is scummy for you.
4) Defending Tragedy.
5) The slip. Again, this is a relatively minor point.
6) The roleblock on you.
7) Process of elimination, because I feel pretty strongly about my town reads on thunder and Amrun. It's possible Hoppster could be town in place of one of them, but I'm not seeing one of them AND Hoppster being scum.

Also my dropping it now has nothing to do with thunder, due to lack of time I've barely been skimming his posts.

[Cephrir]

Meant to add to the last sentence: I'm just sick to death of arguing a point that isn't even that important, about which neither of us can possibly win the argument. You see it one way and I see it another, it's that simple and it's not going to change. We'll never know if it was a scumslip for certain until you flip.

[Cephrir]

So, basically, either MrTrow is scum or Amrun and thunderwielder both are? Gee, let me think about this one.

Vote: MrTrow

Good riddance.

[Cephrir]

That was fun. I think I'm re-addicted.

I really wanted to keep on going with just blatantly calling my buddies town, but I just couldn't plausibly do it with Hoppster. I thought thunder played really well, although I really didn't read some of those walls