Open 347: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[bvoigt]

VOTE: kondi2424

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bvoigt

[bvoigt]

DJ seems to be trying way too hard...fatlikepig had two non-game-related posts on the beginning of page 1.

UNVOTE: bvoigt
VOTE: DonJosh

@Fruit: If you're town, revealing your heads will help you win.

Cross is town.

I agree.

[bvoigt]

Correction: revealing the main accounts of your heads will help the town win this mafia game because it gives us an idea of your experience and your typical play.

[bvoigt]

I'm here. Just busy.

@SK: I was talking about where Quil wanted a quicklynch on kondi.

Getting bad vibes from SH's posts. Also, why single me out when Quil hadn't posted for an equally long time?
VOTE: SH

Because Quil posted content and you never did.
Simple as that.

What exactly was "content" in Quilford's first two posts?

[bvoigt]

V/LA until tomorrow evening.

[bvoigt]

I'm still OK with my DonJosh vote. His early vote on fatlikepig (here) seemed insincere because at the time, FLP only had two RVS posts. However, I'll be making a full list of reads soon.

VOTE: fatlikepig

language tell: 'reek'

You really think townies are less likely to use the word "reek"?

VOTE: trekker
No explanation necessary. He's scum.

I need an explanation.

@Amrun: I know I didn't post a lot of content in the early game, but I was busy on Tuesday and Wednesday and still haven't really gotten "into" the game. I'll hopefully be more active starting today.

@trekker: Would you please summarize a few of your reads with explanations?

[bvoigt]

I've changed my mind about C_P. A couple of the things he's said don't seem to match up. His first two posts are pretty cautious:

Remind me why we're all voting for him already someone?

I'm gonna wait a while before I vote. Haven't noticed anything suspicious as of yet.

But then we have his ISO #5, which is just the opposite:

I wanna see someone get killed

Furthermore, he contradicts himself about his vote on Nobody Special. Initially, he said that his vote wasn't because NS was suspicious, but just because he was trolling. But he later says that he did find NS suspicious:

Nobody Special seems like a troll of some sort. Other than that, I've got nothing on him. Oh well, it's better than nothing.

VOTE: Nobody Special

And I found his posts suspicious.

UNVOTE: DonJosh
VOTE: Cross_Pollination

[bvoigt]

@Cross_Pollination: Why are you voting me?

I agree with Equinox's #324.

I think trekker is scum. Here's a quote from him from when he was questioning SleepyKrew:

Hi. You're still dodging the question. Town shouldn't withhold information; tell me or I will start a wagon on you.

If this is his sincere town belief, and he is actually town, wouldn't trekker be making an effort to answer others' questions? He's totally ignored my question in this post...in other words, "dodging the question" and "withholding information".

So, here are my scumreads, more or less in order: C_P, trekker, NS, DonJosh.

[bvoigt]

I don't get it.

[bvoigt]

His case on me is that I'm not making a case on him lol

This is despite the way he's ignored my explanation requests, indicating that his "town shouldn't withhold information" was clearly not a sincere town belief, and just something he said so he would get a case to defend himself against lol.

[bvoigt]

How long do the days last for?

Could you please explain your vote on me, and maybe make some other contributions?

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: Cross_Pollination
VOTE: Nobody Special

This is a good lynch.

[bvoigt]

I agree with others' reads of NS. Except for two things he's focused on that are not scumtells, he hasn't provided any sort of reads or scumhunting.

[bvoigt]

Yep.

[bvoigt]

IF all three scum are on my wagon, I would say they are: FruitBasket, Screaming Hawk, and Sleepy.

Sleepy is my least compelling read.

This post gives me bad vibes, like "I don't really want to pretend to scumhunt, but here you go."

NS is surely scum

WHEN I GET IGNORED, I POST IN CAPS LOCK, SO STOP IGNORING ME. EXPLAIN YOUR CURRENT VOTE AND GIVE US SOME CONTENT.

DJ's catchup contributed little and was underwhelming considering his absence.

I agree.

[bvoigt]

ScreamingHawk is literally confirmed town now.

Maybe not confirmed town, but it definitely makes him probable town.

[bvoigt]

And I'm still happy with the NS lynch.

[bvoigt]

What do your buddies think of it?

[bvoigt]

Ooh..he's a tricky one.

[bvoigt]

I feel like this day is dragging. NS is clearly the day's lynch.

Equinox makes some good points depending on NS's flip.

[bvoigt]

unvote

Vote: Equinox

Die, lurkerscum, die.

This suggests he's avoiding a real lurker. I know I've coasted for a bit due to exams and replacing into a large-paged game, but I was far from lurking; if Nobody Special thought I was lurking at my activity level, then the absence of Cross_Pollination or DonJosh should have been that much more striking. In fact, it probably was, which may be why he ignored Quilford shouting for a DonJosh counterwagon and Amrun shouting for a Cross_Pollination counterwagon. I'm more inclined toward it being DonJosh because DonJosh's voting behavior was outright odd, and I had no idea what was going through his mind for each of them.

Specifically, this if he's scum.

[bvoigt]

TS, I self-voted as a reaction test, but no one bit.

idgey, NS is *this* close to being lynched. You can pursue Quil tomorrow. One of your suspects being close to lynch with Day clearly over, yet voting someone else does not help the town.

I agree.

[bvoigt]

TS, I self-voted as a reaction test, but no one bit.

did you feel it worked? What reactions were you hoping for?

Nope, it really didn't work at all. I'd rather not explain exactly what I was looking for, so I'll be able to use it in future games.

In other news, look at the VC. Nobody Special is our lynch today. Nothing else is happening. Can we get it done?

[bvoigt]

That was a really weird hammer. J was definitely working against the NS wagon, and then she suddenly changes her mind?

Bvoigt, can you link me to some posts of yours which you feel is you providing good content? Who is your biggest scum-read? Second biggest?

Case on Cross_Pollination
Case on trekker
Case on Nobody Special

The NS case is sheeping, but I don't really care. When I say this, I don't mean that I don't care about his alignment; I mean I don't care about providing my own reasoning because I want to lynch scum. Those three are also my top scumreads, though I'm not sure about the exact order.

(disclaimer: all assuming an imminent NS townflip)

In other news, look at the VC. Nobody Special is our lynch today. Nothing else is happening. Can we get it done?

This post I dislike

"Don't vote NS because he is scum, but because 6 others are on the wagon"

This is a bad argument. Beyond RVS the only reason for votes should be scuminess and you don't explain why NS is scummy as you call for votes on him, but vote him for some other eason (wagon size)

why do you think it's ideal to end the day before the DJ replacement anyways bv?

I've already explained my reasons for voting NS, the game is stalling, he's scum, I want to end the day, etc.

[bvoigt]

@ J in post 721

If you need me to be more specific about bvoigt, I would try re-reading the only massive c_p case he posted.

I was going to ask you to link me to this but then it seems Bvoigt did it instead. In the future could we come to the compromise that possibly sometimes you could link me to what you are talking about instead of having me re-read the entire game to go find it. Even a page number would be helpful for me.

That was a really weird hammer. J was definitely working against the NS wagon, and then she suddenly changes her mind?

Bvoigt, can you link me to some posts of yours which you feel is you providing good content? Who is your biggest scum-read? Second biggest?

Case on Cross_Pollination
Case on trekker
Case on Nobody Special

The NS case is sheeping, but I don't really care. When I say this, I don't mean that I don't care about his alignment; I mean I don't care about providing my own reasoning because I want to lynch scum. Those three are also my top scumreads, though I'm not sure about the exact order.

Thank you very much for linking me to these.

Firstly, I'm a duder and proud of it soooo =P.

On another note, I have to say that I find your content/cases a bit lackluster. The reasoning behind them isn't that much and especially when Amrun was hyping it up saying:

I would try re-reading the only

massive

c_p case he posted.

Saying that it was a massive case against CP where I can say it really wasn't that big since most of it was fluffed up by the fact there were some quotes in it with a line or two to go along with it. Can you type up a summary on what you feel on his slot now that a replacement has filled it?

You realize I am Trekker now correct? Does anything I have posted do anything for you?

If NS flips town, what is your rationale behind things as in your reads on people?

As extremely terrible as that hammer was ... it probably didn't come from scum. *sigh*

TBH, I do realize it was a terrible looking hammer but for me, I'm not ashamed in the action I did. I feel bad but in the end I'm somewhat satisfied. Weird feeling to describe.

Quil can probably go on my watch list too when looking back at the argument he is presenting as his defense. It's entirely self-meta consisting it seems.

Sorry, I was probably thinking of [L], who is female. Do you think lackluster cases are a scumtell in general? Would you agree that my cases were still better than Nobody Special's?

I still find Twistedspoon, who replaced C_P, scummy. His catchup post was a massive wall, but it didn't really say much. The thing most interesting about him is this post. It seems to make a TS/NS team unlikely if NS is scum. However, in a recently finished game of mine, Ellibereth said this right after his buddy was hammered. So I'm not sure if it's a towntell after all.

Yeah, I know you replaced trekker. I think a townflip makes you in particular look bad because of that hammer. I'll ISO you right now.

[bvoigt]

Your play hasn't been terrible, but it definitely doesn't convince me you're town. Those catchup posts seem like they could come from either alignment. However, I do think your hammer of NS was scummy, not because of the hammer itself, but because of your play leading up to it.

Three hours before the hammer, you were saying that we had replacements coming in and "things could change." And your main scumread was me, mostly because of my reactions to the NS wagon. So it seems like your most logical train of thought would be that the NS wagon was scum-driven. You also suggested that "Amrun is trying to avoid the town lynch for brownie points." For the record, you said that NS was null-- nothing more, nothing less.

I need to run. If this doesn't make sense yet, I can finish it later.

[bvoigt]

Lack-luster cases do seem scummy to me because they seem like people looking for weak reasoning on things and trying to scrouge up things to make what they are doing look towny. I could agree that yours were better than NS but that question itself is deflection. =P I could agree, doesn't mean I like yours anymore because of it.

If you find poor cases scummy, can you explain why you said this about Sleepy?

I still find Twistedspoon, who replaced C_P, scummy. His catchup post was a massive wall, but it didn't really say much.

where I felt I was lacking i promised to fix (my fat review)
that and being the first rep and the hours I spent on that post i don't know what more you could ask.
I've provided links to posts, quotes, meta refrences and everything else. How can you tell me it was a ball of fluff? how?

I don't see how you can say it didn't say much either. Already I've overtaken you in post count (not the best indicator of quality but still)
You need to be a little more respectful of my catchup posts compadré

Sorry. I can tell you spent a lot of time on it, but scum can put in effort too. The first computer screen or so deals with the setup, but there isn't much you can say about it that we don't already know. You even said after writing about it that the "formalities" were now out of the way.

The other half of the post was your reads. And they seemed to lack "bite," or drive to find scum. You ended up voting trekker, but it was nothing more than a policy lynch:

I've played with this maverick before. I genuinely feel sorry for the scum if they landed him on their team. He has no benefit to the town. 99% of his posts are baseless assertions and no analysis. This player will be forever a liability and potential mafiosi until he flips and the scum won't do this for us. Unless he replaces out soon he needs to go.

I'd like a little more clarification personally but I think I am seeing the skeleton as to what you are getting at so thank you I think. x.X

Basically, your entire train of thought seemed to be saying that NS was a scum-driven wagon. In light of that, I do find the sudden change of mind and hammer scummy.

PEDIT:
WHOA WHOA WHOA
SCUMSLIP

Not a scumslip. NS explicitly said he was town, and also implied it by answering questions about his reads. So I don't think it was an unreasonable assumption.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Twistedspoon

[bvoigt]

VOTE: jerobbo

The people who are finding me scummy are scummy themselves. I'm confirmed town.

who is jerrobo?

He's DonJosh's replacement.

[bvoigt]

I dunno, she felt town to me on Day 1. She had already mentioned one of the two points of my C_P vote here and here, that C_P was at first cautious, but then said he just wanted to lynch someone. So it wasn't truly sheeping in my eyes.

[bvoigt]

(p sure fat is kinda confirmed for the numbers mix-up and screaminghawk for not getting the set-up but anyway)

Where was this numbers mix-up? I don't remember it.

[bvoigt]

I think FB-Amrun is town-on-town.

VOTE: jerobbo

The people who are finding me scummy are scummy themselves. I'm confirmed town.

Sleepy, when you get a chance to catch up, what do you think of this post?

Fat basically said that he thought we had 2(?) mislynches in this game, so I find it hard to believe he has buddies who he talked to or he'd have a better grasp of the game. Something like that, at any rate I find it hard to believe it came from scum and even less likely it was an intentional 'townslip'.

He corrected himself immediately, though.

tbh, I think his reads list is quite genuine. I find it more townie at this stage to call a large number of players null as scum would try to make their reads as unoticable and generic as possible to blend in and stay safe. Jer's reads are neither generic or unoticable and I find that rather town in a small sense. I agree that a list of null reads is unhelpful and disappointing as well though.
My logic against the NS lynch was that scum wouldn't want to stick out as much and be as bold as he was. I think the same may be true here.

Doesn't a large number of null reads satisfy the notions of "unnoticable and generic"? A strong scum read or town read just makes it more likely that people will disagree and possibly argue with you.

I've also dropped a vote on Fruit Basket as he didn't respond to me at all and after looking again I definitely think him and Amrun are fake arguing and trading votes with each other as scum buddies. Also the fact, as someone else mentioned, that [J] also looked to be onto them and he turns up dead night one.

Do you think it's worth voting based on associative tells without a flip?

[bvoigt]

ALSO YEAH, Fat did "sliped", but as I said, that means nothing. Would be stupid to give him a free townie pass (Same for Screaming Hawk).

Not really liking the back and forth of FB and Amrun (not saying the 2 are scum though, that's a longshot). However, why do you think they are both town bvoigt?

Gut mainly.

[bvoigt]

Dear whoever asked, I think that Quil post is incredibly bad and would like some reasoning behind it.
Now why did you ask me that question?

I will explain after you answer one more thing: do you find those kinds of posts bad in general, or is it on a case-by-case basis, and you don't think Quil is the type of player to say that he's obvtown?

@Twistedspoon: That does make sense, I have to admit.

Can we just acknowledge that SH is practically confirmed town and move on?

This.

[bvoigt]

bvoigt, I think those are almost always bad (barring Innocent Child etc) but not necessarily scummy. I don't know enough about Quil to judge if he's scum or just apathetic town based on those posts.

All right, I asked because of this post, in which you said that calling yourself town is on a case-by-case basis. I was hoping you might contradict yourself, but you did not. (FTR, I don't consider this a towntell, because as scum, he could easily be saying his true town beliefs.)

[bvoigt]

Sorry, ran out of time for this game. Let me post this evening.

[bvoigt]

Equi- don't understand your vote on me? Yeah I missunderstood the setup a bit, I say that and you vote me? Ok. Anyway, yes I think that no one should get a free pass because of a slip. I don't even think that SH and fat were scum (at least not yesterday). But if they start doing scummy stuff should I give them a free pass? Lol no. Anyway I'm town. Equi seems kinda in the middle to me to be honest.

Also meta as an offense is ok. Its ok when people think someone is playing differently as when they played as town or something. But self meta sucks. And I never use self meta, or even rarely use meta as an offense. People play differently and evolve. Or they play differenltly just because they want.My vote on quilford is because his play has sucked. Him saying "I'm town confirmed cause of self meta" does little to me.

On the other hand, fatlikepig jumping on an opinion when he had multiple chances to do so before is bad.

vote: fatlikepig

You just jumped on someone else's opinion with this post. How is it a scumtell?

I need 6 people to tell me they're going to lynch me unless I methodically run down all 39 pages of this thread by Friday evening PST.

Seriously. I'm running in circles at this point, and it looks like I'm going to be useless until I actually sit down and reread this thread in light of flip.

I will!

Missed it.

SH, please clarify your question.

Missed it and then asking for clarification as well - surely using only one stalling tactic would have been enough??

This question is bad, both in its accusation and its wording.

[bvoigt]

jerobbo, do you think it's worth using associative tells without a scumflip?

[bvoigt]

@jerobbo: Would you say you've become more confident in your reads on Amrun and FB in the past few days? If so, why?

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: Twistedspoon
VOTE: jerobbo

I don't think the cautious, unsure style of his catchup post matches his current insistence that Amrun is scum and his fervor to get a wagon started.

[bvoigt]

bvoigt, if you'd care to read my earlier posts, I explicitly stated that once I was caught up and properly into the game I would be more affirmative with my actions and I'm doing exactly that.

Where?

[bvoigt]

@jerobbo: I still think my reasoning is correct. Up to post #916, you were still cautious, saying you needed to reread again. In #941, you provided a couple of town reads, but nothing new against Amrun. Then you asked her a question in #981, and after that, it was like the flip of a switch:

But nah you're not bussing anyone, you were just going to have a fierce argument so people would ignore you and let the two of you go at it.

It was all too forced.

Missed it.

SH, please clarify your question.

Missed it and then asking for clarification as well - surely using only one stalling tactic would have been enough??

Clearly, you went from caution to forcefulness, and to me, it didn't feel like a natural progression. Rather, it looked like insincerity in trying to appear town. Furthermore, it accomplished a scum agenda: you were first able to keep your options open until you decided what the best lynch was, and now you're trying to convince the town to go through with this lynch.

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: jerobbo
VOTE: Equinox

Give us some content. Also, you should vote jerobbo.

@Twistedspoon in #1060: In your experience, is intentionally avoiding their buddies something scum tend to do? I'd say I've also had limited interactions with Equinox, pidgey, and probably a couple of others.

At the point when I voted NS, there was a wagon growing on him. So I did an ISO read and found that it was devoid of content. Because of that low amount of content, there wasn't a whole lot I could say that hadn't been brought up already. I did add a minor point here.

I need 6 people to tell me they're going to lynch me unless I methodically run down all 39 pages of this thread by Friday evening PST.

Seriously. I'm running in circles at this point, and it looks like I'm going to be useless until I actually sit down and reread this thread in light of flip.

So somebody who knows Equinox, is it normal that he keeps making posts like this or what?

Cause right now it feels like you're trying to avoid attention by coasting along, going missing, coming back and not actually making any analysis? It's a bit annoying, to be quite honest.

You're either scum or completely useless to the Town..

Unvote, vote Equinox

I think jerobbo has again changed styles in his attempt to appear town. After being "99% certain" that Amrun was scum, it doesn't make sense for a townie with such as strong read to change tactics and go after a lurker. Furthermore, this is an "easy" sort of vote for scum to make. Lurking and promising to catchup is not a scumtell. Just look at this guy. (He posted no content for two weeks, and then came in and randomly hammered me without having read the thread. ) However, it's rare that anyone will criticize a lurker vote (except for me, but I never get any support for this kind of case).

@jerobbo in #1077: The latter two of those quotes say absolutely nothing concrete. The first one is somewhat valid, but I'm not sure how well anyone can tell the difference between someone's scum and town language, especially when they don't have experience with the player.

I'm still not supporting an Amrun lynch.

[bvoigt]

You had no case on me.

In other news, I have a 17-player Large Normal in signups, if anyone would like to join.

[bvoigt]

@Twistedspoon in #1060: In your experience, is intentionally avoiding their buddies something scum tend to do? I'd say I've also had limited interactions with Equinox, pidgey, and probably a couple of others.

At the point when I voted NS,

there was a wagon growing on him

. So I did an ISO read and found that it was devoid of content. Because of that low amount of content, there wasn't a whole lot I could say that hadn't been brought up already. I did add a minor point here.

looking at the bold you voted NS because there was a wagon?
or was it because he was "devoid of content" which I also find hard to believe from a non-myslynching point of view of DJ, C_P, Kondi, Trekker and Quilf had all done zilch

Did I say that's why I voted him? I think it's pretty clear what I meant-- I did an ISO read because of the growing wagon. I find this a scummy twisting of words.

No offence but I feel like you're not reading the thread again - I wasn't "going after a lurker". Equinox specifically said people need to vote for him before he'll post any content sooooo I voted for him? I figured others would do the same and then he'd be forced to post some stuff. However nobody did and you all seem to have this thing where you 100% know each others playstyle (bullshit) and won't vote for each other, so I put my vote back to Amrun because that's who we should be lynching today.

Sorry, my bad...your vote made it look sincere, rather than a vote like mine which was just to get some content. But in my eyes, my previous case still stands.

UNVOTE: Equinox
VOTE: jerobbo

@Quilford: Can you explain what gave you a scumread on me? And as Amrun alluded to, what do you think of the towntells SH has given off?

[bvoigt]

@Quilford:

@Quilford: Can you explain what gave you a scumread on me? And as Amrun alluded to, what do you think of the towntells SH has given off?

@Twistedspoon in #1060: In your experience, is intentionally avoiding their buddies something scum tend to do? I'd say I've also had limited interactions with Equinox, pidgey, and probably a couple of others.

At the point when I voted NS,

there was a wagon growing on him

. So I did an ISO read and found that it was

devoid of content

. Because of that low amount of content, there wasn't a whole lot I could say that hadn't been brought up already.

I did add a minor point here.

looking at the bold you voted NS because there was a wagon?
or was it because he was "devoid of content" which I also find hard to believe from a non-myslynching point of view of DJ, C_P, Kondi, Trekker and Quilf had all done zilch

Did I say that's why I voted him? I think it's pretty clear what I meant-- I did an ISO read because of the growing wagon. I find this a scummy twisting of words.

or maybe I needed clarification which is what I was looking for since you provided no reasons at the time

I've put my reasons from the same post in red. What did you think they were? (This is meant as a serious question, not sarcasm/rhetoric.)

i wanna do a proper analysis of the rest of the players, or at least the viable lynches. equinox/bvoigt, who's your second choice?

Twistedspoon. My third choice would probably be Quilford.

[bvoigt]

@BV: your two red quotes don't hold water. the first could apply to half the playerlist at thyat time and the second is no reason at all that "a post gives you bad vibes" that's really no excuse at all. what does that even mean?

A lack of content is a scumtell for NS. He is more helpful as town than he is as scum. From what I know about DonJosh, C_P, kondi, trekker, and Quilford, I could not say the same thing about any of them. Gut in regards to a specific post is as valid a reason as any.

UNVOTE: jerobbo
VOTE: SleepyKrew

I got my fist, I got my plan, I got survivalism.

[bvoigt]

Here are the points against me, and my responses to them.

No interactions with fatlikepig: This is not reliable unless flp flips scum. And I've also had limited interactions with Equinox, pidgey, and probably some others.

Wagoned with limited reasoning: When a wagon started growing on NS, I did an ISO read and found that he lacked content. This is a meta-based scumtell for NS. For most other players, such as kondi, no content is simply their style regardless of alignment. Due to that low amount of content, there was little I could bring up from his posts that hadn't been said already.

[J] suspected me: I was planning to vote [J] on Day 2, IIRC. So if I was scum, she was my main mislynch target, and I would not have killed her. I know this is WIFOM, but it makes perfect sense from my eyes.

Bad case on jerobbo: I'll just link you and let you form your own opinion.

If there are any points I've missed, let me know and I will respond to them.

[bvoigt]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not as convinced about my scumreads as I sometimes am. But here they are, starting with the strongest read:

jerobbo- for his change in style from caution to overzealousness.

Twistedspoon- for C_P's play mainly, but also in the way he's pushed my case. He's ignored towntells (such as the [J] kill) and misconstrued reasonable responses (such as my reasons for voting NS).

Quilford- for his change from voting me to having me as a townread.

[bvoigt]

Are you really twisting this into a scumtell? I know I'm town, but I don't know SleepyKrew's alignment.

[bvoigt]

Sure.

UNVOTE: SleepyKrew
VOTE: fatlikepig

[bvoigt]

Bah avocado.