#335 Road to Perdition - Finiretur (<- Over)

[TB]

hey Primate, Wintergreen

Vote: connor

Who needs a reason?

[TB]

I don't think random voters are that suspicious. Max might have had some bad luck with random.org, which is, although mathematically not very likely, a plausible explanation.
Since Diablo does it every game, as I've been told, that isn't a reliable source of information either.
And although I find the people who FOS/vote them for this rather.. interesting, I suggest we leave the subject be and start some usefull discussion. I don't think this is contributing any more information than that it already has.

FOS: Raj, Thesp, Mackay, Wintergreen

for making such a big deal over such a minor thing.

Another small thing:

I found one already!

Give me a couple of pages and I'll find the rest.

Forgive me for missing the obvious, but what exactly did you find?

[TB]

Let's start at the beginning.

Any conversation at the start of a game can be useful. Too many FoSes.

unvote; vote TB

for trying to quash discussion.

Four things. First, have a look at post #27, and count the FoSes there. Right. How many were there exactly?
Second, definately not all discussion is usefull. If there is an argument between townies over a small thing (such as the target of a random vote, a spelling error or whatever), it will hurt the town more than it helps.
Third, I'm not "quashing" discussion, my post is mainly meant to direct the current discussion to another subject, which has worked as far as i can see.
Fourth and last, OMGUS, you made so many (intentional?) mistakes there, i'm going to

unvote, vote: Ibaesha

.

Thanks Thesp for pointing that out for me

Now call me overdefensive (and I'm sure people will), but most points of Mackay are absolutely ridiculous. I'll point them out. [this part is typed after all the stuff below]I think I'm being more overaggressive than overdefensive[/this part etc]

While self-voting is idiotic, it should have been clear from my post that my vote on c_d was not for behaving idiotically, but for the strange fact that both he and Max were self-voters.

That's exactly my point. If you were voting for him for behaving idiotically, your vote wouldn't be linked so directly to the fact that he self-voted. Because you think self-voters are suspicious, I find you suspicious.

Links between players make me think that they are evil.

That is the most stupid thought I've heared in a long time (no offense meant). If you really think that's true, you should have also FoS'ed the people who greeted eachother (yes, that included me) and of course yourself and Wintergreen, with the Dunbar-link. In a game like this, many, many links exists between people, and only one of those links is that of mafiosi. So unless you're able of telling which one that is, links between players mean nothing.

and b) picks a behaviour which is not suicidal.

(random-)Selfvoting is nowhere even near suicidal. Apart from a certain exception (you), I don't think anybody is willing to lynch somebody on day 1 because he selfvoted (no matter whether someone else has already selfvoted before him or not).
Therefore, in the end the discussion would have let nowhere, and that behavious wouldn't be suicidal.

If he's town, he's knowingly voting for a pro-town player.

You seem to forget that those votes were cast in a stage of the game where votes have even less meaning than a comment like "Hello all, I'm scum, how do you do?".
This is a phase in which we should be having a discussion which

gives us usefull information

, and nothing else.

Ooh! This is the perfect opportunity to use a phrase which I've noticed is way, way overused on scum: "Your defense of X is noted." X in this case being c_d. =)

My primary intent is not to defend c_d, but to prevent the town from having a pointless discussion that leads nowhere.

You have brought new information to light, though, in that he apparently "does this every game". I didn't know this.

I'll get back on this in my analyses of your next post.

Obviously, if I find somebody scummier I'll change my vote.

First you say c_d is an idiot (or at least behaving like one), evil, suspicious and dangerous to the town, then you start backpeddling so it makes it easier for you to change your vote.

What does make me suspect you is the fact that you referred to the self-voting as "random voting". It seems to me that you are trying to downplay how damaging these kind of votes can be. Then again, it could also be a scum player who is coming to the defense of people they know to be pro-town, to make themselves appear innocent later on.

Although I do think selfvotes aren't damaging, I'm not trying to downplay them. As you can see by Max' post, his vote was random, and although c_d's wasn't, it still can be counted as a random vote, as it has the same value.
So now I am a scum player coming to the defense of townies? You are contradicting yourself hugely within one post. Do you think c_d is a townie or not?
You could very well be a scum player making some worthless contributions based on nothing to make themselves appear protown. [/sarcasm]

Your second post:

I was beginning to worry about associations between players. I do not think I was unjustified in doing so.

I do. You are being paranoid, and although that can be a good thing, it's beginning to influence your judgement. If what you say was true, that would mean there would be at least 5 mafia, which is obviously untrue.

As town, how is doing this more justifiable than voting for somebody else, who at least has a chance of being mafia?

It isn't, but neither is voting for somebody else. As you very well know, all random voters don't vote because they think they vote for scum, they vote to trigger discussion. A selfvote doesn't differ in this, only you fail to see this. You seem to be able to draw conclusions from selfvotes which are based on nothing, and that is something that concerns me.

I have neither tried to deduce your motives, judgments, nor opinions. I have simply stated that it is a ridiculous thing to do, either as town or scum. You are trying to make it look as though I am drawing conclusions about you from this behaviour, where I have tried to do no such thing. Please desist.

Someone's backpeddling over here. Of course you haven't been deducing his motives, he hasn't got one, that's the whole idea behind a random vote. By stating it's a ridicilous thing to do (selfvoting) for both scum and town, you do admit that there is no information to gain from the discussion, hence proving that I was right
Also, if you were drawing no conclusions from his behaviour, what made you think he was scum?

Could you explain to me why you choose to focus on me?

Although I would like to see c_d answer this question as well, I'd like to answer it for him. It's because you haven't stopped making silly accusations.

Now I hope Thesp unvote cuz I'm no longer "quashing" any discussion, am I?

[TB]

EBWOP, sorry, I just realised I forgot something
I'm very tempted to vote for Mackay, but the only thing that stops me is that she has made some good contributions to the discussion (good in the way that it gives us a lot of information, and a good discussion). That's why I keep my vote on Ibaesha, but I'll change it to Mackay as soon as Ibaesha has replied with a reasonable explanation.
My current scumlist consists of:
1. Ibaesha, closely followed by
2. Mackay

I hope my analyses gives you something to think about

[TB]

I'm going to apologize right now... because I'm going to make another huge post.
I'm sorry to the ones who don't like this, but with all the votes based on Mackay's pseudo-logics, I have to do something.

I'll try to organise it a bit, so that you can easier read a few parts that interest you, and skip the others..

Ibaesha's post (#54)

You FoSed 4 people at once. I don't care if it's 1 FoS covering 4 people, or 4 FoSes. It counts the same and playing with semantics is scummy. I think it was definately over the top. You basically FoSed everyone involved in the current discussion.

Yes, I did FoSed everyone in the discussion there, that's why it were 4 FoSes. You clearly haven't counted the FoSes in post #27, so let me tell you this, there were 4 there as well, but you didn't responded to that. Explain that to me please.

you didn't give much else to talk about outside of a direct question to Thesp.

Care to explain what we currently talking about? According to you, we aren't talking about anything, since the old discussion has (fortunately) ended.

Finally, I flat disagree that not all discussion is useful. Different people find different things useful. I think math discussions suck and are completely unhelpful and confusing, but that's me. It's not the same for everyone.

Your point being? You disagree that not all discussion is useful, meaning that all discussion

is

useful, but then again you think some discussions are pointless.

Also, you are very very reactive to 2 votes.

That's my style of playing, I would have reacted the same to a single vote or even a (serious, i'm not counting Mackay's here) FoS.
I think Wintergreen and Primate can confirm this from the last game we played.

Mackay's post (#55)

I was voting him for a perceived correlation between his behaviour and Max's, not because he self-voted.

And why was there a link between them? Because he selfvoted. But even if this isn't about selfvoting, why did you defend the idea that selfvoting is a bad play:

If he's town, he's knowingly voting for a pro-town player. So if he isn't scum, he's dangerous to the town.

I did FOS the players who greeted each other.

And you unFoSed them in your first post after that. I think that pretty much prooves you aren't convinced by your own believes.

How do you find mafia? Follow-the-cop?

Perhaps you should be thinking about the difference between a link and a relation. The "link" you have been talking about is something they have in common. A relation however is based on the way they have acted towards another person. That are the kind of things that are helpful. Trying to link unrelated actions just because they are the same is pointless.

You vote for people in order to kill them.

That's the core of the discussion now isn't it? Something which you've chosen to ignore from my last post, so here i'll state it again: random votes don't have a meaning. They simply serve to start a discussion. Your vote for Wintergreen, was that meant to kill her?

For some reason you're making this out as though I'm out to get c_d. I thought he was stupid.

You voted for him. According to you, people vote for others to kill them. Now logically, you were trying to kill him. So yes, I think you were out to get him.
Perhaps I should remind you of this quote from you:

but hey, it's day 1!, one's as good as the other.

Are you therefore saying that you don't care who you kill?

Now that I am unsure about a connection

Oh, the link is still there, it's just still as meaningless as it was when it was created. It's just that you finally start to realise that.

Why are the both of you persistently defending against accusations I didn't make?

The selfvoting thing is at the base of the relation between them. When I pointed out that I don't found that suspicious, you immediately came up with reasons why it was (idiotic, dangerous to town, etc). Oh, and what's perhaps more important, you voted for me because of the disagreement about selfvotes.

You said yourself that my posts are providing information. Do you not think that encouraging discussion does give us useful information?

Your posts in this new discussion are providing information, that is what I said. Only encouraging the right discussion gives us usefull information, which is exactly what I've said. You make it sound like you've just came up with a brilliant idea, and that I have been against it the whole time, while it was my idea in the first place

But... but... you just said discussion gives information. What are you afraid this particular discussion will reveal?

Oh did I now? I said we

should be having

a discussion which gives us usefull information. I also said that the current discussion wasn't given us any information. As Ibaesha said, I don't think a discussion about math is giving us any information about this game, but if you insist I'll talk about math with you, I don't mind
So please, stop twisting my words to make me look bad, and respond to the points I've made, most of which you have been avoiding.

No. I said that connections between players make me fear they are evil. You'll see I expressed the same fear about you greeter types.

If you weren't that convinced, why did you wanted to kill c_d?

Only if he's pro-town, in which case he's voting a player he knows to be pro-town, which is - oh, this is gonna blow your mind - ANTI-TOWN, Einstein.

So in other words, he is dangerous to the town? Oh dear, it looks like i'm reading my own quote, de ja vu (sorry, can't be bothered to do the accents).

Backpeddling? Oh, backpedaling. Wait, backpedaling? When have I done anything of the sort?

If you want to play the "search-eachothers-posts-for-spelling/grammar-errors" game, then tell me, because I think there's plenty to find in your posts as well. Just keep in mind that English is not my first language, so I don't think that spellingerror will be my last. You'll just have to live with that, but personally I think it's very lame to use something like that, although it does show that you are getting desperate.
About the

backpedaling

:

You have brought new information to light, though, in that he apparently "does this every game". I didn't know this. Obviously, if I find somebody scummier I'll change my vote. It hasn't happened yet; you could be a possibility, except that it would only be through association to c_d anyway, and therefore I see no point in moving from one to the other... yet.

How's this one? First you start saying that one of your arguments is rubbish, by saying you "didn't knew this", then you start talking about the circumstances that would make you change your vote, and surprisingly, you do so in the alinea after that.

I can see where the misunderstanding was here. I don't know whether c_d is a townie or not.

You voted for him, which means you were pretty sure that he was scum. I don't know if he's a townie or not, but contrary to you,

I

don't want to lynch a townie, that's why I defended him, because I believe he's a townie, just like you believed he was scum.
I indeed don't have any reason to believe he's pro-town, but I have even less reason to lynch him and find out he was a townie after all.

I will need some clarification here.

Sure, the whole sentence was sarcastic, a mere parody on your own ridiculous accusation on me.

Yes, I am paranoid. Clinically speaking, I mean. I find it works for me, mafia-wise. =)

Good, then you already know that I'm after you, saves me some explaining.

Also, I notice you've read my post now... or you've just contradicted yourself. First off you say if I'm after associations I should have FOSed the mutual greeters, and now you're including the same FOSes, whose existence you ignored in the previous post, in your interpretation?

I didn't ingnored them, but they weren't serious accusations, since you unFoSed right away.

I was in no way saying, or even implying that they were in anything together.

You were the one that stated that all people who are linked are probably evil. Since you FoS'ed them all, you were suspicious of all of them to be mafia. If they are all mafia, they are together in something. So you actually were implying that they had something to do with eachother, you just refuse to see it.

It isn't more justifiable than voting for someone else, but neither is voting for somebody else? What?

Selfvoting isn't more justifiable than voting for someone else, but neither is voting for sombody else more justifiable than selfvoting.
This must be like the fifth time this is coming up, there isn't a difference between selfvoting and voting for somebody else. Clear now?

And what kind of reaction are you expecting from yourself, when you vote for yourself? What kind of reaction from others do you expect other than "you're an idiot" and "you're not being helpful"?

Any discussion in which people express their opinions on matters, thereby giving information is helpful, and a selfvote is more likely to start a discussion than any other random vote, this whole game is a nice example of that.

Explain to me how a self-vote is in any way helpful, and I will concede this. Pro-towners are just as likely to jump upon a self-voter as scum, as they're damaging either way.

And that's the seventh time. read my comment on your previous quote, I don't feel like copying it here

I haven't drawn any conclusions! Do you see me saying "c_d is scum"?

"Selfvoting is idiotic", "pick a behavious that isn't suicidal" or "so if he isn't scum, he's dangerous to the town"
I think that pretty much says c_d is scum. He selfvoted, so he's behaving idiotic, and if he isn't scum, he's dangerous to the town.

I voted him, AGAIN, for the correlation with Max' behaviour, not for the self-vote in and of itself.

And again, you voted for me (which is believe is still your current vote) for the disagreement over the selfvoting.

Point out for me where I've backed down one step where it was not logically warranted

Perhaps you should read your own quote when you're scanning my post for things you actually do have an answer to.

I have neither tried to deduce your motives, judgments, nor opinions. I have simply stated that it is a ridiculous thing to do, either as town or scum. You are trying to make it look as though I am drawing conclusions about you from this behaviour, where I have tried to do no such thing. Please desist.

That is what I call backpedaling.

stop making moronic accusations which make you feel like you're making a good argument.

Pot you say? Ah, hello, I'm Kettle.

Thank you for basically repeating what I said. But the vote was not random, remember? He "does it every game". You are still writing off the vote as less than what it is.

If that's the problem than I have a confession to make. My vote wasn't random either, I just chose connor from the list for no particular reason. Now what?

Wrong. There is no benefit to be gained from the act of self-voting. On the other hand, I'm finding the ensuing discussion very telling indeed.

Oh dear, it almost looks like selfvoting might actually have a purpose, and is good to trigger discussion, providing information for the town. I'm so sorry, that is of course what you have said all along. Oh no, that was me..

The fact that he and Max self-voted

And how is that not a part of his behaviour?

I didn't accuse him of anything except acting stupidly.

You forget the dangerous to the town thingy, and the accusation of me being scum because I don't agree with you.

You think I've made good contributions? After saying in your previous post that my contributions are worthless?

Your contributions show that you at least have made some effort in this game, they don't valuate the quality of those contributions.

Highest on your suspicion list are the two people with the most suspicion on you? HOW PERCEPTIVE.

And why is that again? Because their arguments are based on nothing.
But don't worry, i've grown less suspicious about Ibaesha, so I'll change my vote at the end of my post (guess who's going to get it?).

Now some smaller posts..

with the evidence aginst him is pretty bad.

What evidence is that then?

But I think I see something fascinating here...it appears like TB knows the people arguing to be townies.

Like I said, I believe they are townies untill they do something that is scummy, and for as far as I can tell, c_d hasn't done anything like that yet, so there's no reason to believe he's scum.

By the way, I don't find the discussion useless at all, it's already shown me enough inconsistencies within TB's arguing to make me confident in my vote for him, and people's reactions will be interesting.

Perhaps you should read my post again and see the inconsistencies in your posts that I've pointed out, and that you didn't dare to respond to. At least I have explained why those so called "inconsistencies" are misinterpred by you.

What I did find amusing was that he went on for so long on a discussion *he* claimed was useless.

Perhaps you are the last person to notice it, but the subject of the discussion has actually changed. I don't think this discussion is useless at all, you are putting words in my mouth, once again.

I'm not sure where the self-voting debacle is going still

It certainly is, that's still Mackay's reason, and the reason of all the people who have been following her like lemmings.

Now I believe I have pretty much everything covered, here comes the part in which I change my vote.

Unvote
vote: TB

Omg, I've selfvoted. I'm an idiot, Mackay fears me now and I'm dangerous to the town.
better:

Unvote
vote: Mackay

If anyone believes I don't have a reason, than read my posts.

Sorry for the long post, i'll try not to let it happena again

[TB]

I'm still here, just some issues irl that i have to take care off.
I'm currently thinking of a way to defend myself without being overdefensive, or making a big post.

I'll post as soon as i've got a sollution

[TB]

Well if you really wanna know, my mum died of cancer last week, thank you very much.

I don't really feel like playing that much at this moment, so I suggest you just lynch me, that would get you the most information.
For the role-claim the scum has been waiting for: i'm a vanilla townie.

And to Mackay, if I'm still alive in a few days (for whatever reason), I'll take some time to read all the big posts again, and answer your question.

[TB]

It's ok, you couldn't have known it

I've asked Zu Faul to replace me, have fun in the game all, and maybe we'll play again later