Mini 413 - Famous CATS - Over! Quit pussyfooting around!

[massive]

OMGUS vote Primate

And what's this about mentioning something sweet? I can do that. My favorite sweet is chocolate frosting.

[massive]

Oh my god, mafiascum is suffering an epidemic of players who can't put a cohesive, clearly stated post together. I'm SO glad I made my return! Yeesh.

[massive]

Mostly just whining. It's very frustrating. I let it get to me in my first game back, and they speed-lynched me over a weekend, so I'm just letting you all know NOW that it really drives me nuts.

I'm actually happy with my vote on Primate, as he seemed to be the first person to add his vote to what was, at the time, a completely "random" vote train on Wizardcat.

[massive]

Well, the quality of life has certainly improved here. And I think I actually might have learned something from Glork and his "Paragon of Mafia Hunters" label. That was pretty impressive detective work.

I do think it's right that, if town, the Mafia can't let Zindaras get too far with both his players. He becomes like a double-voter at that time, and makes for fuzzy math.

I'd be interested why Primate said this:

[quote=Primate]Sorry zindie, but that's a complete fabrication. [/quote]

(post 71) -- I don't think that's been effectively answered.

[massive]

Primate's role claim is ridiculous in the face of a proven similar role, and his role doesn't match his role. Claiming to be a "future clone" (Nicky has already been cloned) and purporting lynch immunity doesn't make sense.

PS: Primate's role isn't actually like Zindaras's role, which offers him a second vote as well.

I'm very happy with my vote.

[massive]

A reply to post 126, in three parts, without quoting, because it just takes up a bunch of space.

1. Primate, you did not counterclaim Zindaras. You merely said that his role claim was "complete fabrication" without providing anything to back it up until pressured by multiple votes from the town. In my opinion, a townie would not require any secondary reasons to come out with their role in that circumstance. Guaranteed of lynching a scum, a townie would say, "That's my role!" and be done with it. A townie would NOT wait 37 posts (including 8 of his own, albeit most were lacking in real content) to suddenly remember he has a valid point for calling another player's role claim a "complete fabrication." The rest of my point, as quoted, stands. Having lynch immunity does not make sense given your claimed role of being a cloned cat. And, to top it off, being an ass will not make me miss you even if you ARE town.

2. I am saying that they are different. Zindaras's role is "strictly better", as you say, and the double-vote ALONE makes it infintely more likely that he is town, and NOT scum as you seem to think. Simple lynch immunity is a totally different animal, not to be punny or anything.

3. The votes that led up to Zindaras's role claim, if I remember correctly, were more related to determining who was beyond the Carbon Copy alt account, and not actually due to any sort of scummy behavior. In any event, your claim of "counterclaiming" Zindaras is already questionable.

In any event, I'd be interested to hear what the "answers" to the questions you posed to mod were.

[massive]

If we're positing that one or the other has to be scum, isn't in the town's best interest to try the one that has no extra vote first? It seems like the extra vote might be important somewhere down the line.

In other news, I'm out of town for the weekend, heading into Zindarasland to play in GP Amsterdam and throw things at people in Eindhoven for knocking out my beloved Arsenal.

[massive]

I'm here. Weekends tend to be busy at Chez Massive.

Can we have a vote count to confirm theopor's double-vote? Because that's definitively odd. If he's got a double-vote that he can position where he wants, that's a remarkable set of doubled abilities we've got going on here.

(albeit done creatively)

I could be persuaded to vote for DrippingGoofball if the double-vote thing pans out.

[massive]

As to why I'd vote DrippingGoofball ... I don't trust

her

Z-posting "restriction" and I think the tie to

her

"claimed role" is incredibly loose at best.

However, I did get to thinking about yesterday and last night, and it dawned on me reading Glork's summation that I do in fact know Primate is lying about his role. Would you like to explain, Primate, or shall we go on the premise of "Lynch All Liars"?

vote Primate

Please stop calling DGB he/his/him. Thanks
~The Mod

[massive]

Sorry for the delay, y'all, I was at a monster truck rally.

And contrary to both your points, Primate, I do not think (a) that your lie is merely something that you can brush off nor (b) that your explanation of said lie, if you are town, necessitates explaining what my role is.

[massive]

My role isn't playing any part in your lie, at this moment. Nor, I doubt, will it in the future.

I did not pay any attention to post 119, because, in all honesty, you had been argumentative and grumpy up to that point, and I took your post to just be more of your general mean-spiritedness, and I had no idea what you meant by it, so I passed over it.

I have a better idea than most about your role. I have little-to-no idea about your alignment, save for what the thread has provided me. Looking back at it now, I guess I'm wondering why you would have been so aggressive against Zindaras knowing that your counter-claim was based on a lie.

[massive]

I'm focusing too hard on Primate now and I know I'm missing something. Probably many things. I need to put it out of my mind for a bit, I think. It's obvious no one cares at this time, so it can be tabled.

[massive]

I could see why Primate might false-counter-claim if he were scum -- because he would be pretty sure that he wouldn't actually die if the train lynched him. Unlike Zindaras/CC, Primate wouldn't actually die, so no role information would be revealed. And, more importantly, no allegiance information. It would give him the ability to trade two-for-one at the very least, and with good Mafia play, he could have stretched it out and never been revealed.

As for other points ... I do think that Phoebus was an SK (as evidenced by two deaths last night), and I do think that DGB's claim is a bunch of garbage, which I've said before.

unvote
vote DrippingGoofball

[massive]

I could really lynch either of them.

[massive]

I received nothing.

My problem now is, MAN, this is a real reach if she's making it all up. She knows nobody's going to fess up to receiving an ability, because she's not really handing them out. So providing a list of people who she "targetted" only serves to give us a faux list of people she "trusts".

It seems like, if it were a false claim, that it's one that's destined to end in her hanging. That doesn't seem like good scum play. But maybe that's what she WANTS us to think ...

(bah, stupid wine)

[massive]

Here's the ongoing problems I have with DBG's roleclaim:

1. Pooky is actually the first person to deny getting something from anyone -- post 317, before DBG reveals what her role gives out. Pooky quite clearly indicates that he's received nothing from anyone.

2. After day one, Carbon Copy has stated that he received something. So DBG should know he's capable of receiving her items. Why wouldn't he be at the top of the list for day two? If he dies overnight, one would assume that the item would fall to the second or third person in the list.

And we still have no indication of why she's supplying three names, short of people being "ineligible to receive". Is that really all we get?

I mean, I understand that beyond this we have no idea of where Carbon Copy's ability would have come from, but things just aren't adding up.

[massive]

So, you're saying that you have no idea what the restriction is? Why someone would be "unable" to receive your dreamgifts? Bizarre.

Well, as I said, I can't wrap my brain around most of the WHY's of DGB's claim, but I can't see it being faked. So I'll

unvote DrippingGoofball

and let's try and get through today, huh?

I said earlier that I'd go either way, Wizardcat or DGB, so

vote Wizardcat

[massive]

Any idea what happened while I was gone? All I know is that my "I'm gone" post is missing.

This day needs to end, or this game will never.

[massive]

Never mind the players, how about the MOD?

[massive]

I'm posting but it's only to say I'm out of town through Sunday. Please let's not let this game die!

[massive]

If a scum in Primate's shoes knew that his alignment wouldn't be revealed on his first lynching, AND had nothing to worry about because he knew the Mafia wouldn't kill him overnight, would you think that would make him more or less reckless with his "counterclaim"?

[massive]

Saying "let's mass claim" makes me very suspicious of theopor.

[massive]

If we're speculating about the Mafia having provable abilities, we should run up the known liar -- Primate.

[massive]

Hrm. Conditional night actions. Interesting. I'm willing to add my resources to your train on theopor.

vote theopor_cod

[massive]

I suggested it weeks ago. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone's listening.

[massive]

Sorry for the delay. No one could have reasonably expected this much activity over the weekend.

I am OK with Primate putting out his entire role. I think having the entire picture will be helpful for the town to understand what the heck happened yesterday.

Me included.

[massive]

I'm not leaving any letters. I have no contact back to Primate ... I only get to say "yes" or "no" to sending him money, and how much I'm willing to send.

A couple of comments for Primate's big post:

1. The initial claim of Little Nicky from the first PM is NOT "fairly unambiguous", as it's a string of letters that make zero practical sense without the explanation from the second PM. The second PM claims that the Muse song that the string of letters is from is featured prominently in, I guess, the Adam Sandler movie of the same name ... I've never seen it. But it also appears on one of their other albums ... but I'm not a Muse fan either, so it's all just a matter of pushing the "I Believe" button here.

2. I can't imagine why Primate would know how much money I have.

I don't think, had I been Primate, that I would have been so gung-ho about lynching Zindaras / Carbon Copy. The two roles aren't just different, they're COMPLETELY different. I mean, we're talking "two bodies" v. "can buy extra lives" -- it's not even close. It just doesn't follow if Primate is a townie. Sure, you can try and pressure to get him lynched, but falsely counterclaiming to do so seems like a real stretch, and while I've not played with Primate before, he doesn't seem like a bad enough player to think (a) we wouldn't eventually notice the dissimilarities and (b) that, if Zindaras / Carbon Copy came up town, that we wouldn't try and lynch him next, thus tying up the town in unfruitful lynches for what would most likely be days.

However, if Primate is Mafia, then Primate knew Day One that he was going to have at least ONE extra life because I paid him $50K ... so he knew, no matter what, that at the end of Day One that no one would have any info on him. He could put his neck out, and if he got lynched, it would be no problem -- he could talk the town into lynching Zindaras / Carbon Copy the next day, and probably get a third life from me, and by then it would be WAY too late for the town to recover.

I do, generally, get more the feeling that THAT is how things were supposed to go down.

I'd like to hear just a little more discussion, plus results from theopor_COD's messages to / from the mod, before voting, but I think I'm pretty set on voting Primate.

[massive]

I want to throw one thing into the discussion, and that is that the only thing that I KNOW FOR CERTAIN is that I gave money to Primate. What he did with it is only his story to tell. So saying "massive is backing him up", Miztef, is a little bit of a stretch of the truth. The discussion, therefore, should NOT be about whether or not Primate's role as claimed fits into the general power curve of the game, but about whether we believe ANY PART of Primate's claim short of the money request.

@ theopor_COD: You said you were going to PM the mod and make sure about your kill attempt on Primate. Does that sound familiar?

@ Primate: The thing about my "supreme plan" for your extra lynches actually has a lot of merit from a scum standpoint, so just dismissing it out of hand is a little ridiculous. Think about it. If you had gotten lynched on Day One instead of Zindaras, your "role" would be proven and therefore we'd go into Night One assuming you were a townie. That would have meant I most likely would send you another $50K, assuming that you put forth your role as you did in last night's PM. We would have lynched Zindaras today, found out he was town, and then still had to lynch you TWICE to get through you -- or hope for some other nightkiller to step in. It's not even "putting your neck on the line", as you would have already had a free shot thanks to the initial $50K. It would be Day Four before we'd have lynched our first scum. We clearly would have lost by then.

I don't necessarily think that this is what's happening -- I'm only presenting it as a possibility. Given a role like yours with a scum affiliation, I certainly would give it a shot.

And you can't say "that wasn't how cloning worked in this game" as your defense. CLEARLY Zindaras, with a second account named CARBON COPY, was a clone. That was never in doubt. Saying you were sure he was lying about being a clone is either willfull ignorance ... or trying to cover your path.

vote Primate

[massive]

Is the (3, -4) on the vote count for Primate accurate?

[massive]

Why on earth would *I* be scum? Primate's note to me held no indication of what the money would be used for -- simply that he had a use for the money. And if we were scum buddies, why would I (a) try and bust him and (b) make up some ridiculous story about receiving notes when we would have just talked about it at night?

You, sir, make no sense.

[massive]

Skruffs: If I was scum and I was getting requests from townies, why would I ever say yes? If I was scum and getting requests from scum, why would I ever say no? If Primate and I are both scum and have concocted this plan, then rest assured he already has all of his lives and the town can't win. No, I think you are putting forth a false dilemma here, and have risen near the top of my "lynch tomorrow" list.

[massive]

So, if we're all in agreement that Primate is scum, can we PLEASE vote for him and move this rapidly-continuing-to-stall game on to the next day? Hoy.