Mini 413 - Famous CATS - Over! Quit pussyfooting around!

[Carbon Copy]

Dying because of your own vote is lame.

Unvote

[Dragon Phoenix]

Vote Zindaras

[Phoebus]

you got to unvote later but not getting to the points you were going to address?

[DrippingGoofball]

Zindaras is at -2?

[Glork]

Can we get

Modprods

on ubertimmy and Wizardcat? Neither of them have posted in over a week.


Thanks in advance.

[Phoebus]

my last post was directed at ZinCopy

[Zindaras]

Safe claims exist. CC's name is like a built-in safe claim. I'm suspicious of you both because of the way that you handled having CC and because Primate counterclaimed. Unless Primate is pulling a

massive

WIFOM, I don't think he'd do so as scum. And as it's been pointed out, having two nearly-identical roles (functionally, anyway) is pretty pointless.

So you're basically outguessing the mod...twice, once by saying the two roles can't coexist, and once by saying that he'd build a safe claim in it. You're also saying that I didn't play CC like a Townie would, but it is neither the way a Scumbag would. I've already pointed out the earlier game in which I had an alt as scum and how I played it then. Also, Scumdaras has

no

reason at all to

ever

admit to being Carbon Copy, because that damns him.

[Zindaras]

Phoeby, I was at uni and busy with other stuff like my paper.

[Glork]

I'm not playiing "Outguess the Mod" so much as I'm using my knowledge of most thematic games, and most games in general.

Most themed games, if they can be broken due to flavor reasons (such as the "Cartooniness" of scumbags) provide safe claims in some form or another.
Most games do not include multiple copies of unique or unusual roles. And double-life roles are indeed very unique.

I argue that to posit

anything else

is to play Outguess the Mod.



I have also already addressed your "but here's how I played this role as scum before" point. It is necessary to change your play from game to game. In fact, I would not be surprised if "Scumdaras," upon recieving the role, said to himself, "Aha... here's how I can compare this to the past to explain why I wouldn't be scum." It's complete and utter WIFOM.

[Zindaras]

I'm not playiing "Outguess the Mod" so much as I'm using my knowledge of most thematic games, and most games in general.

Most themed games, if they can be broken due to flavor reasons (such as the "Cartooniness" of scumbags) provide safe claims in some form or another.
Most games do not include multiple copies of unique or unusual roles. And double-life roles are indeed very unique.

I argue that to posit

anything else

is to play Outguess the Mod.

This is not like most games. That is all I can say, as I obviously cannot rebut this point except by dying and having Primate killed afterwards.

I have also already addressed your "but here's how I played this role as scum before" point. It is necessary to change your play from game to game. In fact, I would not be surprised if "Scumdaras," upon recieving the role, said to himself, "Aha... here's how I can compare this to the past to explain why I wouldn't be scum." It's complete and utter WIFOM.

It's not WIFOM. WIFOM implies two equal choices. The choices are obviously not equal, because playing in this (very very much imperfect) way leads me to being run up and lynched (or at the very least puts me in quite a bit of danger), while playing in the perfect way means that I won't ever get connected to my other account.

Playing like crap so you can pull WIFOM out your sleeve is not a good strategy as scum.

[Glork]

No, the sitaution you present

IS

WIFOM.

"I can play the same way, or I can play it differently and use 'but I played it this way last time' as a defense." You also present the "Scum wouldn't do this, and I did this, so I'm not scum" argument which is very typical of a WIFOM defense.

And once again, your defense implies that you let yourself get caught. I think you realized that I had found out you were CarbonCopy, and that I was going to lynch you anyway. I even said that I wanted to lynch

Zindaras rather than CC.

At that point, you have every reason to "come clean" and try to save face in that manner. Admitting that you were found out, when you were admittedly distancing from yourself and proposed that CC might be scum is not an indication that you were okay with being found out. It is an indication of the

exact opposite,

that you wanted CC to be seen as being completely

separate

from you.



I feel like I'm arguing in circles. Can we lynch Zindie already?

[Zindaras]

No, the sitaution you present

IS

WIFOM.

"I can play the same way, or I can play it differently and use 'but I played it this way last time' as a defense." You also present the "Scum wouldn't do this, and I did this, so I'm not scum" argument which is very typical of a WIFOM defense.

There are two possible ways to play it out. Play X and Play Y.

Play X will give me a given amount of suspicion, r. Play Y will give me a given amount of suspicion s, which, let's say, is three times as large as r. However, Play Y will also give me a defense, which will, lessay, half the suspicion on me. Play X is obviously the superior play. Play Y may allow me to raise a defense, but is still an all-around worse play compared to Play X.

And once again, your defense implies that you let yourself get caught.

I think you realized that I had found out you were CarbonCopy, and that I was going to lynch you anyway. I even said that I wanted to lynch

Zindaras rather than CC.

And because you say something or want to get someone lynched, it's obviously going to happen, right?

and proposed that CC might be scum

As I pointed out before, this was done to see who would jump on CC purely for flawed role reasons.

[Wizardcat]

Can we get

Modprods

on ubertimmy and Wizardcat? Neither of them have posted in over a week.


Thanks in advance.

I actually have to post? Gah.

Anyways, about the whole Zindaras issue... I believe his roleclaim. I think Primate is the liar. Of course, there is no proof to back either of their claims so this vote is based on their behavior. Zindaras is giving me the frusterated townie vibe.

Anyways,

Unvote: The person I was voting, Vote: Primate

[Glork]

And because you say something or want to get someone lynched, it's obviously going to happen, right?

In this case, yes. I pointed out the existence of a "13th player," instigated discussion on the matter, then proposed several reasons why I not only thought that it was a scum role, but also why I thought that

YOU

had that scum role.

and proposed that CC might be scum

As I pointed out before, this was done to see who would jump on CC purely for flawed role reasons.

That's absurd. You insinuate that somebody is scum and then want to see who supports that notion "for flawed role reasons"?

Off the top of my head, I remember both Thesp and myself citing that, based on game experience (and I even provided two examples where this was true), that anonymous alt-handles tend to be scum. You provided another such example. Phoebus

actually had that exact role

in one of the examples I cited and more or less agreed with the sentiment, as did you yourself.

Role/Game history

very strongly

suggests that such a role would be scum. Since this is the case, any player who has experienced a scum-alt is far more likely to jump on that alt for that reason. It is not flawed in the least. It makes

perfect sense

. I pointed this out, ran up wagons against you/CC, and forced you into a claim by directly asking crystal clear questions as to whether or not you were CC. And I daresay we both knew that if you had tried to lie about it, you would have been disbelieved and CC would have been lynched. Why? Because nobody would have fessed up to being CC and the obvious logical conclusion would be, "Aha! CC is scum, since he obviously isn't Battle Mage!" We would then trace back CC-scum to his player-root (read: you, unless everyone else thought I was busing CC) using my explanation, and then we'd proceed to run you up, too.

So by admitting that you were CC, I think that you did the only thing possible to even give yourself a chance of talking your way out of it.

Your "Plan X" of staying away from CC at all costs may have garnered less suspicion for you, Zindaras, in the immediate future. But running up CC would have been disastrous given that I had already displayed why you and CC were one and the same. I actually think that going "yes, I'm CC and I was being silly" is the

best play you could have possibly made

, regardless of what your alignment happens to be.

[Glork]

Also,

FoS: Wizardcat

for not busing his scumbuddy Zindie.

[bertrand]

"Not Random At All-ish" vote count:

Zindaras (5, -2): Glork, DrippingGoofball, theopor_COD, Phoebus, Dragon Phoenix

Primate (3, -4): massive, Zindaras, Wizardcat
Carbon Copy (1, -6): Primate
massive (1, -6): ubertimmy

Not voting: everyone else.

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch, and this is getting repetitive.

ubertimmy has been prodded.

[Glork]

Prodding Timmy?

Done.
~bert

[Wizardcat]

I would like to poke the Mod for getting my vote incorrect when it is

3

posts above the post count.

*flinches*

Seems correct to me..

[ubertimmy]

Sorry, I have the SATs this weekend. been kinda busy.

I believe Zindaras's flavor too much to think he's scum... but what are you proposing glork? He has a scum side and a town side? I'm just a little overwhelmed, if you could summarize your accusations on him it'd really help me decide on that issue.

[Glork]

My current stance is that Zindaras is scum and had a built-in fakeclaim to his role. Primate counterclaimed what is essentially the same role, and I do not expect two roles that similar to have the same alignment. If Zindaras (or CC) turns out to be pro-town, I will then puruse a Primate death (regardless of whether he has a one-shot revival -- the Phoenix godfather in Mythical Monsters Mafia had a one-shot revival, so I see that as being distinctly possible).

If Primate is gambiting with the counterclaim, there's no way he'll get away with it. I am A) concluding that Primate is *NOT* gambiting; and B) concluding that, based on Zindaras' behavior, he is likely to be scum. Thus, I want Zindaras (or, alternatively, CC) lynched today.

[massive]

If we're positing that one or the other has to be scum, isn't in the town's best interest to try the one that has no extra vote first? It seems like the extra vote might be important somewhere down the line.

In other news, I'm out of town for the weekend, heading into Zindarasland to play in GP Amsterdam and throw things at people in Eindhoven for knocking out my beloved Arsenal.

[Zindaras]

If we're positing that one or the other has to be scum, isn't in the town's best interest to try the one that has no extra vote first? It seems like the extra vote might be important somewhere down the line.

It'll take two lynches to find out Primate's alignment.

In other news, I'm out of town for the weekend, heading into Zindarasland to play in GP Amsterdam and throw things at people in Eindhoven for knocking out my beloved Arsenal.

I'm a PSV-fan.

Harhar.

As I said before, the way to play the roles (one-shot revive or alt) is massively different. The roles are not essentially the same.

[Glork]

If we're positing that one or the other has to be scum, isn't in the town's best interest to try the one that has no extra vote first? It seems like the extra vote might be important somewhere down the line.

No. I'd give 90% odds that Primate's

ability

is true. However, we'd have to spend Lynch+Vig or Lynch+Lynch (if there is no Vig) to properly test him.

If Zindaras is pro-town, yes, we'll lose an extra vote. That's not really that big a deal, though, because it saves us up to a day's worth of actions to get that information.

[Phoebus]

so with that quote/comment on primate, you're agreeing to get lynched now, zindycakes?

[Glork]

Hah. I don't care if Zindie "agrees" to get lynched now. I'll be pretty ticked if it doesn't happen at this point. I see virtually no reason to believe that Primate is malicious and that Zindie is legit.