Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[gorckat]

/confirm, pardner!

[gorckat]

Random vote: Avinyl

because he busted me in Newb 310

[gorckat]

@Raffles: I think it is only against the rules to use two accounts to get around waiting list caps or to play two roles in a single game.

[gorckat]

Vel is right that my hunch about gorckat is probably off, but one way I try to start out a game is figure out one person I can be pretty sure of trusting - and this game gorckat seems legit.

Forgive me for being skeptical, but that sure looks like a good way to "buy" the other person's trust if you aren't on the town's side...although I presume you generally don't run up to 'em and give this reasoning

Didn't mustafa vote John for having the shortest name? Seeing DLMF, I call crap-logic on mustafa!

[gorckat]

lol- nice random logic for a random crap-logic call on a random vote

[gorckat]

[quote=Guardian]I've read up a little and it seems that casting a die, doing an actual random vote, and requesting that everyone follow it is the pro-townie thing to do. [/quote]

What games did you read this in? It is a behavior I haven't seen.

Avinyl- the too townie thing is a bit of a stretch.

Ichigo- Why does John not seem to be finding scum? You've posted less than he has...

[gorckat]

@Peter- I'd seen that as well, but I thought I'd be assuming too much- Sheriff's have deputies after all, don't they?

We might not be "power"-less, but we also might be safer not relying on any help in that way (cirlcular, obvious, why even say it, etc )

[gorckat]

I might end up with a few posts back to back here- I'm at work and skimming individual posters' posts and will put forth any questions I have when I have them.

There is no proof he actualy rolled a dice to pick raffles, it's just too much of a coincidence that he had already had a go at raffles and then "oh look the dice picked raffles"; i dont believe it for a second.

In fact if i was making up a random d12 result 11 is the number i would have gone for too which reinforces my point.

Vote: Guardian

Setting aside that Guardian did use the dice tag, I fail to see how the number you would select proves that Guardian chose it deliberately.

[gorckat]

Care to justify your earlier reasoning on choosing the number 11?

[gorckat]

Calling shotgun is a way of claiming the passenger seat in a car before it fills up and you get cramped into the back with 3 other people...his questionable logic was made to justify a vote of you.

[gorckat]

Indeed...what has Occult done to earn such a gut feeling?

[gorckat]

I'll restate my question a third time:

@Vryklan: How come the fact that you would choose the number 11 prove your suspicion of Guardian when you voted him (see post 107)?

FoS: Vryklan

for not answering it yet.

I'm also curious about the gut feelings leading to votes...I'd like mustafa and DLMF to substantiate their votes a bit more by at least looking at the posts of the people they voted and giving me some insight to their intuitions.

[gorckat]

UnFos: Vryklan

That makes sense...it was in the random stages, after all

[gorckat]

DLMF: You have a 3 out of 11 chance of hitting scum and an 8 out of 11 hitting an innocent (assuming you are innocent). Having faith in a random vote runs counter to us trying to determine who the scum are by their actions and not by chance.

[gorckat]

@Vel: If DLMF was getting a vibe off that post, then fine- I just wanted him to say that. He didn't, and he used (I think) flawed numbers to try and show that a random vote was more likely to be successful. He also likened his vote to betting a horse because of the jockey's shirt color

I'm just skeptical of a gut vote with no analysis to back it up, even though we're early on, here. I've only played one completed game and have two others in progress (one at another site), but when I had a strong gut vote in one of them, I went back and looked at the posts and pointed out things that were inconclusive, but left me with my impression.

Its not too hard, after all, to "Display all posts by Occult Oldest First"

As for letting Vryk off the hook, I did very much buy Raffles' explanation because it made sense when presented as a real life friendship. Its how I've behaved at times- joke-logic amongst friends- so it sounded plausible.

But after having it pointed out by several people, I need to be just as skeptical of Vryklan and let him answer for himself.

[gorckat]

FOS: Vry

I don't remember him posting that he was going to be gone for a few...... I'd like to vote for him but with him this close to getting lynched I'd like to see him post first.

Please elaborate on why you want to vote him. Are Guardian and John no longer suspiscous to you? If not, what makes Vryklan moreso?

Anyway, forget the whole dice thing, i was just trying to make a point but obviously i didnt make it well...

What point?

And I thought the whole shotgun thing went back to the American West stagecoach days when someone had to ride 'shotgun' to shoot bandits and stuff...I'm sure wikipedia has something on it, but that's neither here nor there.

[gorckat]

@Occult: Please see post 152- I had a few questions for you. Your last post seems to be quite a reversal on your stance towards Vryklan.

I agree that Avinyl hasn't been as aggresively targeted.

@Raffles: You seem to be defending Vryklan quite a bit. I, for one, would like him to answer all the questions put to him on his own. At this point, if one of you turns up scum I excpect the other would, too.

And I'm not understanding the reasoning leading up to the vote on Guardian...could you rewrite it all a little more coherently?

[gorckat]

Gor

kc

at

:

I'm a little surprised you're going after lurkers, Avi...we both know what that would've done to Newb 310 (for my side):evil:

I have been very skeptical of who and why people vote. The two C9s here and the off-site mini I'm in have created a healthy skepticism in my budding play-style.

Hmmm no edit button that's very incovenient

Not at all- don't want people going back and changing stuff, now do you?

That's what EBWOP is- Edit By Way Of Post (if you ahdn't looked it up, yet).

I've skimmed a bit to try and get a feel for whom I think is scum, but I'm going to a baseball game later and don't really have too much time to blow at the moment

At the top of my list are the players with the fewest posts since they give us the least to go on, but I understand that some people just post less. As long as they come through when the chips are down, that's fine.

I'll post more tonight.

[gorckat]

DLMF hasn't posted in a few days- not since the gut vote 'busting'.

John's posts are a little intriguing...voting Guardian to "quiet him down", then a vote on DLMF to 'get his attenion', then I see an indirect defense of Vryklan:

I'm not seeing a good reason for Vryklan's 4 votes, would someone elaborate?

And most recently a calling out of lurkers with a vote on Avi and then a confirm vote on Avi.

Then he posted during the 45 minutes I've been reading the thread

I'm not sure what to make of it all...the votes feel fluid and slippery- like he wants them to stick but he doesn't want to make the case himself...

mustafa also voted Vryklan. He recently unvoted citing he's not sure why he was so unhappy with Vryklan and had thought he was acting the scummiest.

Occult suspects Avi Vryklan and Guardian together.

Peter Venkman hasn't committed too much since sharing his thoughts on roles and an early suspicion of Raffles and Guardian.

Raffles seems to be on the town's side...the only post that gives me real pause is his somewhat long defense of Vryklan. Has Vryklan answered all the suspicions put towards him, yet? Let's look!

Not really- he does say he bodged his theory on bodgey dice rolls. But he basically falls back to declaring Raffles the patron of Mafia newbies since Raffles also defended Guardian. His last post is some pretty superficial analysis- who's lurking and who hasn't said much...

Vel: Stays on Vrykan until he gets back in the game and now on Avinyl for his vote hops on lurkers.



1) At some point in this game, I'm going to shorten your name to something easier for me to type but not the way you'd choose to abbreviate it. Sorry.
2) I'm tired and way past my bedtime (:P) but I wanted to get a foundation to amend out there tomorrow in my spare time at work. Some people got more attention than others- don't get jealous! Just post more
3) I think I only looked at 8 other posters. So...sleepy...I'll catch up on anyone I missed tomorrow.

[gorckat]

FoS: Vryklan and Raffles

unVote: Avinyl

I've let my vote sit out there awhile, but I think its time to reel in my random vote.

I'm skeptical of the Vryklan/Raffles defense team. Raffles went to bat for Vryklan with nothing to go on and Vryklan has fallen back on that defense pointing out that Raffles also defended Guardian early on.

Since Vryklan is still voting Guardian, I'd like to hear more from him on why.

[gorckat]

@Guardian: I say call them out. Don't hold back because if you are Nightkilled, we lose those thoughts and if you're getting lynched, its gonna make it harder to sift out OMGUS type accusations.

If you catch a contradiction, then point it out so we can break the person down.

[gorckat]

@Avi: Why is John the most suspicious? Earlier on, you said you didn't know what to think of him and since then, you haven't given any reasons.

[gorckat]

I assume town players are smart enough to catch scum tells, therefor I try not to announce them when I spot them.

To me, that just reads like an out for scum. "Oh- I thought you'd pick up on that!"

If there were a hard and fast book of tells, then I'd agree. But you yourself said:

Also, the wikipedia entry should have some sort of "do not use this as the bible" caveat. If the wikipedia entry says "scum does x and doesn't do y" I assure you that scum will do y and not do x.

@Avi: Please explain why you now find John the most suspect.

@Guardian: Can you summarize all your possible scumpairs? Perhaps with a quick statment about why you think they are scum together?

[gorckat]

I assume the rest of the town is smart enough to pick up on these tells. If scum think they are getting away with them they will continue to do so. A good townie is a patient townie.

So what will you base an argument on when you decide who you want to vote for convinced they are scum? "Player X is scum and you should all be able to see why"?

I was in a similar debate in another game where a palyer refused to state who they thought the scum were while we were no-lynching ourselves into lylo. If we aren't voting the person you think is scum, then why sit on that info/analysis?

Perhaps we are talking about two different things...I'm thinking of an accumulation of info presented to make a case agaisnt a person. Are you referring to jumping on every little tick and tell and posting it right away?

@Gorckat: Why do you turn to Guardian for scum pairs? We have confirmed nothing this game, and saying things like "If player X is scum, it follows that Y and Z are also scum" is pretty much meaningless until we determine if X is actually scum. Maybe keep your potential scum pairings in your MafiaScum notepad until we have more information to work with...

I want a recap of all his pairs because he has issued several theories and I want to see him stack them up for review.

[gorckat]

I'm here. Looks like the short-lived drama around John's (I think) calling Guardian a townsperson is gone. I can't recall what else went down last weekend...

I know I made a post wanting more out of Avi. I'll reconstruct it later today.

[gorckat]

It looks like one of the posts that Avi made is gone- it was an updated suspicion list wth 3 or 4 names on it.

The big thing I was challenging him on was his vote of John after saying:

John: Many posts, but no post is longer than a few sentences. I don't know what to think about him.
Raffles: I can't make up my mind on him, either he's town or he is scum that seems protown.
Vryklan: I no longer know what to think.

If he doesn't know what to think of John, what makes John a better vote than Vryklan or Raffles, two other people about whom he doesn't know what to think?

[gorckat]

Guradian seems very town.

Peter seems like very good scum to me, he is appearing very pro town and asking just the right questions. he's almost being too perfect of a townie, and it rasies my suspicions, but its mostly a gut feeling.

Raffels, i know it seems im lurking. but there are so little scumtells to me, i can't comment with any kind of content. the downtime kicked the shit outta my attention span as well, if it wasn't bad enough.

gorkrat, thanks for defending me indirectly, i dont know what to make of it. you could have ment nothing by it, or you may be trying to gain me as an allie very subtly (<is that a word?). maybe im reading too much into it.

FoS John

- Since Guardian's tag reset to Townsperson, I'd say its conclusive my voting you for that reason was over the top. But Occult is right- gut feelings and too-townie were gone over earlier. I am always skeptical of a "its just gut" statement, as I have stated. Something was doen to give you that feeling.

As for defending you: yes, you've read too much into it I'm looking at Avi's reasons right now because I think they aren't that strong. Same with yours, which we might get to in more depth shortly. If you happen to be town, then great.

And in Preview, I see Avynil's back

[gorckat]

Let's look at a couple reasons a townie would get lynched:

1) Lurking: Not the greatest reason to lynch a person, imho, but it can happen.
2) Acting scummy: If you have opened yourself to great suspicion, you're gonna draw investigations and discussion away from scum.

These are the most likely reasons I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.

If you are wasting investigations and distracting the town from true scum, then you're not being helpful. Lynching a person like that early might just save the game before it gets to lylo and the best choice is the scummy looking fella that survived each night, at which point the game is lost for the town.

A townie getting lynched is sorta like getting hit by a pitch in baseball- you don't get to swing the bat right now, it hurt like hell, but you helped the team by getting on base- in a game of mafia you narrowed down the field of likely scum.

Therefore: if a townie gets themselves lynched, they most likely brought it on themselves and weren't helping much (or the least of all the rest) anyways.

Play to find scum, not stay alive. I agree with Peter wholeheartedly on that.

[gorckat]

Still waiting on Avi to respond and for other lurkers to come back/get replaced.

The Guardian/Peter debate got interesting with both saying they were being misrepresented...I need to go back and reread the posts in question to see who's right, being too sensitive or just working stuff up.

[gorckat]

I'm alive. Work net went down last Wednseday and I've had b-day parties, my best friend buying a house, wife getting promoted and such drama at home eating up my time.

I'll be trying to catch up today.

[gorckat]

I just reveiwed Thesp's play in Newb 310 which we were in together and he also played close to the vest in that one. I think it is safe to say his not sharing too much (he does need to throw us a bone) does not mean he is scum.

I'm not clearing him, just pointing out his behavior is consisitent with a previous game I was in.

Avi also had similar problems to this in that same game and turned up pro-town. He was, however, more substantive in some of his posts.

[gorckat]

This was also a large debate (to me, at least) in my only game off site. There was a player that grated my nerves by not sharing his insights. He was the doc, but his style was simply not an open one, not trying to avoid the scum, imho.

I'm not sure if its metagamey since it can make being scum easier, or a personality thing.

In principle, I do agree that suspicions should be laid out for the most part- if a person has a great insight and gets offed, then town isn't helped. But I don't think anyone's mind or style will be changed mid-game in a case where the player has shown this style before.

I'm at least going to give Thesp a fair shake on his thoughts and actually look for what he sees, not just demand it.

[gorckat]

Did the scum get a chance to talk pre-game?

[gorckat]

due to the fact that you wrongly said a quote was by me, which seems to me, your trying to dicredit me, feuadian slip or not.

Would you like a ladder to help with that one?

I get the SK thing- that'd tweak me a little too, I suppose. But he didn't touch up something you said or select a few lines of a longer post- he just tagged it wrong.

Its obvious you didn't say what he quoted- the quote was talking

about

you.

[gorckat]

...

at this point

a good town player is suspicious of everyone.

-Peter

I am ze greatest town evar!

I'm feeling a little 'Ick' on:

Guardian- his rushing, while understandable, is just putting me off
John- the leaps he's made to vote Thesp and his reaction in general
Peter- strikes me as using a lot of words but not saying anything...that might be harsh and maybe even unfair, but a lot of theory has been debated and gone over between him and others
Thesp- I'm still at the point where I am learning the various playstyles, and his aggression is both intriguing and intimidating (in a suspicious sense)

Those are my strongest inclinations. Thesp is most likely to fall off the big ick list as I get further used to him. I also agree with Guardian's response to zombie's last post, as well.

[gorckat]

I was outta town from my last post till last night. I'm gonna reread after dinner and see if there isn't a vote I can slap on someone before John's post.

[gorckat]

vote: paradoxombie

His reasons for voting Guardian were piggy-backed on other's reasons. He said they all blended together.

When pushed, the only one he put forth specifically was that being vocal is a scum tell (which conveniently clears himself since he has not been notably vocal), but says that reason is arguable.

He says his reasoning is pretty airtight (but the one point he elaborates on is arguable...) but his mind could be changed...

He also set up the "Whoops- he wasn't scum" Day 2 by saying he's "...not very certain you're scum..."

Too wishy-washy and fence-sitty of a vote for me.

His vote did move to Avinyl briefly, but I think that was when several people were starting to look towards Avi when he wasn't posting.

[gorckat]

Has John posted on any other weekend? I know some people only have access from work...he's notaby late on a defense/rebuttal he promised.

pokes a Stick of Suspicion in John's hidey-hole

[gorckat]

Peter's 455 is interesting...he does seem to have VRK caught in a bit of hypocrisy.

I'm comfortable on xombie right now since he hasn't responded to the now two votes on him.

[gorckat]

@CTD- you said you'd outline your vote on mustafa...can you do so?

[gorckat]

John and xombie are tops on my list. xombie per the post where I voted him. I'm around today and will post more when I can.

[gorckat]

Hmmm...I'm sold on VRK right up until you speculate on who votes you next Peter...

The sensational nature seems a little much.

However...my radically unfounded scum team guesses (assuming 3 per team): CTD/Thesp/Peter or VRK/pick/mustafa.

Thesp and CTD's entry has been good for Peter...but the case against VRK seems reasonable, as well as CTD's notes on mustafa. The two in conjuinction give me some confidence in:

vote:Vel-Rahn Koon

xombie and John are still on my radar as not town friendly, however. I suppose they could be SK's, as Thesp put out for John, or 4th men on the teams I proposed. Or just lurkers.

[gorckat]

1.You took your vote of VRK why?

1a.I knew I would be on again before the deadline to apply my vote again if I had too, what's it matter to you?

So...if you thought the case wasn't all that in the first place and you were gonna be on before the deadline anyways...why'd you ever vote?

As I was catching up my immediate thoughts were that pick was trying to blend in for later, which I see echoed by others.

[gorckat]

WHOA! That's not what I was asking?!?!? It's like you ignored my question!!

You thought the case was flimsy.
You voted.
You unvoted and later justified that by saying you were gonna be back before the deadline and could revote.

If you were going to be back before the deadline, why did you vote for a case you thought was flimsy?

[gorckat]

It's cool. I don't think i've been attacking you though,

just looking for justification, and it has come in your recent posts

, so we'll have to see where a VRK lynch takes us.

Can you elaborate the justification that convinced you in 500?

[gorckat]

@pick: So you weren't convinced that VRK was scum, just that you didn't want to vote Peter?

[gorckat]

I could have just as easy voted Peter

, but we were nearing deadling, and that wouldn't have accomplished anything...

Really?

That I have no specific posts thing doesn't convince me Peter is scum at all,

or even make me want to consider voting him.

vote:pickemgenius

Yeah, yeah- half quotes. I just don't feel like you've been straight with us on your reluctant vote on VRK. I think it was to avoid noticeably not voting him so you could avoid suspicion later.

[gorckat]

I believe you should make shorter posts. :arrow:

(don't ask about the arrow)

This is something that's been buigging me since it was psoted...

What's the deal with the arrow?

[gorckat]

I am not trying to stay off the radar. I am following your discussion with Peter avidly, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere at the moment.


Lately I have been trying to examine the situation if everyone involved in the Scumcount/WIFOM controversy is pro-town, which I am beginning to think is a possibility. The scum can just sit back and let VRK/Peter/CTD/PEG fight over minutiae while they lie unmolested. Is it absolutely necessary that one of these camps is scum?

I've had the same thoughts, and just now I was reviewing

your

posts since, as pointed out by VRK, you flipped a little suddenly.

I'm not sure I buy your 'I wanted to see how long pick would vote VRK given an out' stance.

If the scum

aren't

among Peter/CTD or VRK/pick/mustafa, then they could get two free townie lynches by playing along.

All that said, pick I like because I think his actions and statements voting and unvoting VRK are not sincere.

xombie is still on my radar and I literally just saw this:

For voting guardian? Same as I posted before.

Plus I think it's important to always keep your vote on someone(normally the person you suspect the most

[obviously]).

well out of respect for PMG, I'll unvote

But I feel like I have to read through the topic again before I decide my course of action for the rest of the day

just a suggestion, perhaps we should all list all of our suspicions

At best we'd get some more scum tells or some faulty reasoning, and at worst we may be able to pick someone to compromise on that we all find pretty suspicious, even if they aren't our #1.

Does that sound fair?

Wow this is getting pretty damn hard to keep track of

All of these arguments sound completely solid, even the ones that contradict each other!

I'll post as soon as anything in particular strikes me

So...in 10 days and two posts you haven't felt it important to keep your vote on someone you suspect? That sure makes the vote on Guardian seem worth even less than the last time I scrutinized it...

vote:paradoxombie

[gorckat]

EBWOP: Just to make that clear since I didn't bold it:

vote:paradoxombie

[gorckat]

Do you have any reasons for voting xombie? Each time we get close to deadlin you vote him without much explanation.

pick: I like that style post much better- rational and lacking hostility, but still confrontational. Peter's 56,59 and 60 have "one for one" trade stuff.

[gorckat]

Random speculation: one scum was on the 3 wheeled VRK wagon, one of Sauce and xombie are scum...

I 'm still liking xombie and the idea that perhaps the scum were just mostly watching us draw lines the wrong way...

[gorckat]

Re-reading Deathsauce...

vote:DeathSauce

.

@Occult...too easy to say blowing up a little thing given the recent VRK 'goof'.

[gorckat]

I at least wanted your reaction before I laid anything out there, DS.

I just can't put that much importance on what could very well be just a simple confusion over the number of scum. It's not that big of a deal, and I don't like Peter and CTD's reaction to it. I also am worried by CTD's pressure for a claim. It is not necessarily the right thing to do.

Vote: crashtextdummie

You started off skeptical and voted CTD.

Wow, CTD, over-react much? You want fresh independent analysis? Here, it is: I don't like your push for this lynch of VRK one bit.

Yes, you discovered the whopping inconsistency that VRK once said there were three scum, and then another time said there might be four. Whoop-de-doo! He must be scum! Rolling Eyes

Sorry, it seems like you and Peter are pushing very hard for this lynch based on the flimsiest of evidence.

You confirm your feelings on the weakness of the VRK lynch.

No problem.

1) I felt that the amount of suspicion leveled at VRK was inconsistent with the seriousness of his mistake. I actually still don't understand why it was such a big deal.

2) Seeing Peter Venkman, who was the voice of reason throughout the first 18 pages, suddenly glom onto this trivial matter as if it was the scumtell of all time really raised my hackles.

3) This sentence:

It's clearly better in this situation to lynch someone, so please get your act together, town.

was odd. We had a deadline fast approaching, there was no danger that someone wasn't going to be lynched. Why was CTD so anxious for everyone to jump on the VRK wagon? To lessen the importance of his vote? Maybe.

You again suspect that CTD is pushing a bad lynch and don't get the VRK case.

I have to admit that a small part of my vote on CTD, with associated comments, was an attempt to see how long pickem's vote would stay on VRK if given an out.

I still am suspicious of CTD and Peter's motivation. I disagree with some of the reasoning behind their votes on VRK. But I have to admit they might be correct.

I am more troubled by pickem. His vote on VRK seemed forced since the tide was so strong toward a VRK deadline lynch and he abandoned it at the first opportunity.

Unvote. Vote pickemgenius

If either pickem or VRK turns out to be town, my eye will turn toward the CTD/Peter contingent

Now you're saying that you were gauging pick's reaction and that CTD/Peter might be right

Sorry, I appreciate the three of you trying to shift the focus onto Peter, but you honestly couldn't be more transparent. When there are three players acting in concert throughout 23 pages, it makes outing you pretty easy.

I am convinced I've chosen the right group as scum. If we lynch any of the mustafa/VRK/pickem group, I am fine with that.

And suddenly you're defending Peter, convinced you chose the right group.

I am not trying to stay off the radar. I am following your discussion with Peter avidly, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere at the moment.


Lately I have been trying to examine the situation if everyone involved in the Scumcount/WIFOM controversy is pro-town, which I am beginning to think is a possibility. The scum can just sit back and let VRK/Peter/CTD/PEG fight over minutiae while they lie unmolested. Is it absolutely necessary that one of these camps is scum?

It is strange however that VRK, PEG, and mustafa have been so closely aligned throughout the game. And Peter's argument definitely puts him out on the limb. If any of the V/P/M group comes up town he is almost certain to be lynched the next day.

It is a tough decision. All I can do is vote the camp that seems to offer the most logical option, and right now that seems to be Peter and CTD.

I still have not received any response from Thesp, when I asked for some context for his wild pronouncements of guilt/ innocence. Any progress on that front, Thesp?

You've come completely to the dark side and their "most logical option".

In summary, I'm skeptical of your conversion.

[gorckat]

I certainly wasn't avoiding the VRK lynch- I had voted him at one point, also convinced. Re-reading my own posts to see where I stood on things, I reminded myself why I felt so strongly about xombie. He still looks likely scum to me. You, I also mentioned you before the deadline.

That said- sure, changing minds is to be expected. You just went from so thoroughly convinced it was wrong to so thoroughly ocnivnced it was right that it gives me pause re-reading it, plus the bit you had about gauging pick's reaction which, iirc, was under deadline (I could be wrong, since the date shofted a few times).

Maybe I jumped the gun voting you so quickly without check-ins from others, but you and xombie are tops on my list now.

[gorckat]

I FOS'd because it'd be easy for a scum to lead a counterwagon on the leader of the previous one that had lynched a townie. All he has to do is wait till a wagon is on someone who isn't one of his mates, and mention how their suspicious of a persons reasons. Then next day after the mislynch you just start up suspicion on the wagon's leader(s). With a little luck you turn one mislynch into two.

I'm sorry, can you clarify that?

[gorckat]

So day one, scum points out a bad wagon, then leads the wagon Day 2 on the Day 1 leader?

Why not lead the wagon day 1 and declare scum would never do that beacuse they'd get busted?

I think your line of reasoning is WIFOM, or at least suspect/weak.

[gorckat]

@Thesp: Can you now divulge what you saw here:

This is an odd approach, when CTD had just confirmed himself as VRK's partner.

[gorckat]

So you'd rather let the lurkers go another week without prods and need to be replaced then rather than maybe find out now?

I posted lightly in my other game last Thursday or Friday, but damn- sorry I'm trying to close out the program year at work, buying a house and packing to move...scum is I!

</uncharcteristic pissiness>

Anyway-

vote:paradoxzombie

I liked him yesterday, I like him today.

He never made his own case against Guardian, contradicted himself on keeping votes on people and when I challenged the strength of his case today, says I'm suspicious.

[gorckat]

Only thing that stands out is that he went after you and Sauce pretty strongly, as well as xombie to a lesser extent.

[gorckat]

The only way you explained it was that you felt the deadline made your vote unneccessary, when clearly it is worth more given people can be lynched without a majority and the way ties work out.

And what part of my 52nd through 54th posts weren't a challenge to Sauce's FoS?

[gorckat]

EBWOP: That's all "@xombie:"

[gorckat]

What do you care if you get looked at because you were on a bad wagon?

Hiding something?

Plus I think it's important to always keep your vote on someone(normally the person you suspect the most[obviously]).

And since

everyone

looked suspicious, rather than vote the one you felt was

most

suspicious, you just didn't vote.

[gorckat]

Also your posts 52-54 don't even mention Deathsauces FOS they mention the part where he set it up yesterday, but you're only talking about how his activity was all over the place. You pointed out that my FOS was weak speculation that is also wifom, but deathsauce's is equally all those things and you just pass it over. Of course I guess if you weren't thinking about it you might not notice.

Fair- in hindsight, I viewed my vote and accusations as a challenge to him and his actions.

You know, now that I look over you gorckat I find your posts 36-49 quite suspicious.
36- first you vote me for pretty decent reasons
41- you totally piggy back on VRK without any reasoning after just voting me for aparently the same thing.
46- you vote pickem for if I understand it, acting like he could be VRKs scumbuddy, when you don't even have proof that VRK is scum. That doesn't make any sense I'm pretty sure. Youre so sure that he's VRKs scumbuddy that he is a more worthy lynch than VRK?! WTF?
48- you confirm your suspicion of pickem, only to go back and vote me

41- The piggy-backing was

part

of my reasoning, not the only reason for voting you. You refused to cite any examples of suspicious acts/posts by Guardian. I was responding, in the moment, to what looked like an effective and logical case.
46- Had

nothing

to do with being VRK's scumbud- it was to do with the contradiction in the posts I quoted and the back and forth we had.
48- Yep- I found you

more

suspicous.

Now you're vote for me are decent/understandable, imo, but then your votes on pickem and VRK are very questionable, and I find that very suspicious considering that they are both confirmed townies now. It doesn't help that you're going after me(another townie)

So that's 3 townies you've gone after, 2 of them for very questionable reasons

I suppose you feel the wall against your back if you're suddenly declaring your innocence with only two votes.

I have no regrets about a single vote I've made. At the time I made each one, they were on the people I felt most likely to turn up scum.

[gorckat]

Comparing time periods is not exactly equivalent- you weren't posting as much as he was, iirc.

You simply gave me a stronger vibe than he did. There's no way to give a satisfactory answer/evidence of that other than the cases I laid out and where my vote fell.

[gorckat]

Beuller. Bueller. Bueller?

[gorckat]

Welcome back DS.

A little dramatic though, considering you were FOS'd beforehand and the next several posts talking about you stretched over ~48 hours.

Quig: Are you suggesting that the scum were on or off the VRK bandwagon?

[gorckat]

Not sure what else could have been said, but I'm a little surprised xombie had nothing to say to why I found him more scummy...

[gorckat]

Can't say I had anything specific. Just that it surprised me is all. I explained what made you my number one suspect and you simply accepted it.

[gorckat]

No, the answers weren't. I never unvoted you. And I won't. You've avoided sticking your neck out, afraid waht we'll find.

You're avoiding any reasonable answer to Occult. If you were innocent, I think a little legwork would be worth the effort to clear yourself.

[gorckat]

DS- any responses to questions/comments towards you or your hysteria around being discussed before and after you left town?

[gorckat]

xombie or DS? Who's it gonna be?

DS and CTD's reactions are exactly what I expected. I deliberately did not point DS to the post CTD wanted a response to, nor any of the other comments made after he returned (including where I originally pointed out the drama he stirred over accusations against him), but wanted a straight/honest reaction from him.

xombie and DS look like the best bets for scum right now.

[gorckat]

Almost forgot about this:

Why do you think scum would kill a claimed vanilla?

I thought it was more interesting that someone who had as much suspicion as he was nightkilled. His vanilla claim was what anyone would do Day One, regardless of role.

Not liking this at all.

My selective re-read/skim turned up another possibility, but I'm gonna keep it close to the vest right now. Just remind me to share before nightfall.

[gorckat]

I did that to point how idiotic it looks to vote for someone with no added context.

Answers for CTD soon?

*******************************************
Day 2, Fifth official vote count:


Paradoxombie (2): gorckat, mustafa15
mustafa15 (1): Thesp
Raffles (1): Peter Venkman
DeathSauce (1): CrashTextDummie
CrashTextDummue (1): DeathSauce

Not voting: TeamQuiggan, Paradoxombie, Occult, Raffles

10 alive, 6 to lynch.

[gorckat]

I think the disconnect is the exchanges in 757 and 759. It is a bit unclear in those two posts what questions wasn't answered, what isn't about what question, etc...

[gorckat]

I think DS tried to get one over on CTD and got reversed. He looks scummier, to me, than he did before.

[gorckat]

From my read of the interactions, the quotes and assertions on the last page or so, it looks like you tried to link Peter and CTD in a way that was patently false/non-existent.

My re-read of it looks like you got trashed for trying it.

And because you tried to do it, you look scummier.

[gorckat]

I'm referring to the linkage you tried to make saying PEG would sac himself to prove CTD was scum. That whole exchange puts you in a(n even) scummier light to me.

I still think you and xombie are the best bets right now, although we really need to hear from Raffles and Quiggan before lynching anyone (not that the tow of you are on the gallow steps just yet, anyway).

[gorckat]

Eager to hear from the new guys...

[gorckat]

Lat- are you fully read up?

[gorckat]

Glad I asked before I lost my cool, then

I look forward to seeing your total overview.

[gorckat]

You'll get a different view from each person, though. I'd rather you come up with independent, even if incomplete, thoughts first.

The day isn't gonna end as soon as you post, so there will still be time to review what has gone on before.

[gorckat]

Thanks for your effort!

What do you mean no vibe on CTD? He's been a fairly prolific poster.

[gorckat]

vote: Lateralus

It's been 3 days- contribute.

[gorckat]

peter looks the most odd to me.... but im not gonna clarify anything just yet im gonna sit back and see what the others say first ill get in more comments as soon as i see more reasonable posts.

Just pointing out what you said here. There's been a bit of activity for you to respond to.

vote:paradoxombie

[gorckat]

From my end:

The first time, he said I was suspect (without flippig back to the last page for his exact words) and I wanted to make sure he wanted to stick with that line before I defended myself.

This time, I wanted to give him a little kick (my vote) since he said he'd contribute.

I don't like his willingness to lay back, but given his join date, I'm willing to give him a little benefit of the doubt as far what's "expected" of him as far as posting and activity.

I'm still leaning towards xombie and you, although my opinions of Lat are currently in the lower end of town/nuetral. He might make my third candidate.

[gorckat]

Who said I wasn't here?

Lat- Jump!

Any particular reason I should defend myself against, DS?

[gorckat]

Oh, pffft.

Save it for your NK, DS.

[gorckat]

It is very difficult to read the interactions between you and Lateralus so that doesn't read as a newbie scum following instructions.

It's not <i>that</i> hard.

Look at my interactions with Quiggan and John before Lat. Are you telling me that all of a sudden I'm going to start blatantly

directing

my partner when I haven't the whole rest of the game? I prodded John several times and called out leaps in logic he made, as well.

What about

your

predecessor? I had voted Avi and prodded him in a similar fashion. Does that mean we are connected?

If you're telling me that requesting people make good on promises to post something is scummy, then we need to take a whole new tact with who's on what list right now.

[gorckat]

Making up stuff gets tiresome. Since you know who's scum and who's note, I'm sure you need a kick-start.

[gorckat]

He and xombie have been my numbers 1 and 2 interchangeably all day. At some point I asked who was it gonna be. Since I can make 4 on DS:

vote: DeathSauce

[gorckat]

Flea and Occult sure as hell were quick to jump this wagon...

Flea: Tell me how Lat's actions reflect at all on me. Why does

his

inaction make

me

look scummy. What have

I

done that's scummy?

And what events make you vote DS?

Occult: What do you like about the wagon?

[gorckat]

Wow- yep. Only needed 6...I was thinking like day 1 we needed 7....

Guess DS can't speak anymore, but we can here from everyone else til Sefer locks us down:

Once a player is lynched, the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; the lynched player may not post during twilight but all other living players may.

[gorckat]

So you're distancing from me, too, right now?

[gorckat]

Well.

flea and Occult rise right to the top for FoS, being the last two, quick, votes on DS.

flea also was trying to draw pretty crap links between me and Lat. I'd still like that substantiated a bit more.

I'd pretty much had xombie paired with DS, so I need to do a little more evaluating there (my last 20 minutes looking over some stuff still leaves him less than neutral).

[gorckat]

flea also was trying to draw pretty crap links between me and Lat. I'd still like that substantiated a bit more.

I agree. My sole base for suspiscion was "Guilt by Assosciation", which is why I gave you a Finger of Suspiscion, in comparison to Lateralus' rediculously dramatic Arm of Suspiscion. If there's something

less

that a finger of suspiscion, I'll un-FoS and do that instead. Promise...

Maybe an IGMEOY (I got my eye on you)? I don't care how you point at me, really. I'm saying the link you are making is empty.

flea and Occult rise right to the top for FoS, being the last two, quick, votes on DS.

Says the person who voted DS

four minutes

after PV...
That's like Bandwagoning in advance!

As I'd said when I made the vote, it was the first chance to put one of those two (DS and xombie) at 4 votes. If Peter had voted xombie, that would've been find and if the situation was reveresed (me on DS already and Peter making xombie go to three) I'd have gone that way, too.

Just because I happened to be in the thread at that moment shouldn't matter since I'd already set the expectation I'd run either one up.

I don't think I got that impression from either Occult or you in my quick re-read Monday, or prior to the lynch.

[gorckat]

I wanted one of them to get fully pressured. Neither player had, until I voted DS, had 4 votes on them.

Its not bandwagoning if you've been clear that you'll lynch both people given the chance (at least to me and in this case- I'm sure I could find an exception given enough thought).

[gorckat]

vote: Lateralus

[gorckat]

No offense, Lat, but help yourself. I'll explain my reasons soon enough.

[gorckat]

No, I did

not

immediately reply by voting him. It's been a week since you first made that accusation.

Since you think Lat's scum, is it strange I might come to that conclusion, as well?

[gorckat]

I do.

What's yours? He was distancing from gorc, whom I can't make an independent case against?

[gorckat]

Also- I recognize you and Lat have recent join dates. I'm note sure what experience you guys have with Mafia at other sites or meatworld wise, and I just want to say any pissyness I exhibit towards either of you is strictly in game. Don't take it personally.

[gorckat]

I was convinced VRK, Death, and Guardian/PickEm were all scum.

Death I was also sure of. pick was better than 75% certain for me and VRK 50/50.

If I understand it right, all that needs to happen now for the town to lose is two townies to put their vote on another town, and the scum can end the game. For this reason I will not be voting haphazardly.

So the odds of lat being scum are better than average then?

[gorckat]

In reviewing the players to previously have your role, TQ gave me very guilty vibes with his dramatic fist shaking and things he said about pick betting NK'd. I know you can't address that directly.

You came into the game accusing me of focusing on DS, when in fact xombie had gotten a fair bit of attention form me as well. You've never stated why you thought Peter was the most odd to you. Then you go for xombie, which was a 50/50 shot at that point (he and DS were at two votes each).

Then you cleared xombie entirely, the second most suspect person in town Day 2, in an aww shucks kind of way. Now you're tagging along with everyone else FoSing me.

You and xombie are tops on my list right now.

[gorckat]

So. How're things? Do you like stuff?

Anyone have anything new?

[gorckat]

Thesp- you say flea's attack on Lat feels off. What about mine?

[gorckat]

A deadline is cool by me, assuming people have already been prodded and not responded.

[gorckat]

Are you kidding me? In what way does a deadline benefit the town?

Did you all forget about day one?

-Peter

If people are playing, then good. Right now, 3 people haven't posted in quite a bit.

[gorckat]

vote: paradoxombie

You're appealing to emotion way to hard.

Is fence sitting so bad when you suspect two people equally? Is it wrong to suspect two people equally?

This wasn't a Day 1 bandwagon.

[gorckat]

I have a problem with you deciding who to vote based on someone else's vote. What if the caster was mafia? I can only guess that's not a concern for you.

Really? Peter made up my mind for me?

Golly gee...I guess all the suspicions that I'd previously voiced about DS don't exist. Maybe some of that speculation that got zipped off into nowhere helped convince Peter...

It's also interesting that you go after the person who put DS at -2, not the -1 or the lynch. I haven't gone after Occult except with more than a FoS, but lat I

was

voting till your colon started spewing into the thread.

But instead, 4 people made up their minds on 30 pages within 2 hours and all just happened to come to the same conclusion, the wrong one, and all indirectly helped the mafia.

Now, do tell, xombie. What evidence were you pushing prior to the DS lynch? I mean- clearly you've gleaned something from these 35 pages that we have all failed to see.

I'd like to hear anything new from anybody. I have nothing.

What does that guy who keeps showing up on To Catch a Predator say? Oops.

[gorckat]

Well, I did vote DS early Day 2. Made my case. You behaved scumtastically, so I voted you as a continuation of my day 1 suspicions. Continued to point out DS when I felt he was scummy.

Said whose it gonna be, making it clear I'd advance votes on either person. Peter made 3 on DS and I pointed out I'd my earlier position.

The time for analysis, claims, etc never happened because of two quick lynchers, not me.

But instead, 4 people made up their minds on 30 pages within 2 hours and all just happened to come to the same conclusion, the wrong one, and all indirectly helped the mafia.

Which is it? Am I scum, or did I

indirectly help the mafia

? If I'm scum, I'd be directly helping myself, wouldn't you say?

I'm not voting you solely based on emotion. I've found you scummy from very early on, and should've kept my vote on you Day 2.

[gorckat]

Well, you said

all

indirectly helped the mafia, not 1, 2 or 3...all 4.

[gorckat]

You've continually set the bar higher than a pole vault on what you consider an 'argument'.

I ask again- why me? When you call a lynch a quicklynch, why are you going after the -2 vote? Why not the -1 or lynch vote?

Or is that not an argument you deem fit to answer?

[gorckat]

Any thoughts?

Yes.

Vote: Gorckat
AoS: somestrangeflea
AoS: Occult

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I think at least 2 of these names are scum.

This was a blatant quicklynch. Sure, I guess you could think it's a coincidence that the last three votes all came down in 1 hour. And I guess you could call it a coincidence that all three posted minimal reasoning with their votes essentially piggybacking. And I guess you could also call it a coincidence that they all just happened to go after me together right up until DS got to -3, with even more minimal reasoning for their change of heart from me to DS. Gorckat straight out admits to literal fence sitting:

As I'd said when I made the vote, it was the first chance to put one of those two (DS and xombie) at 4 votes. If Peter had voted xombie, that would've been find and if the situation was reveresed (me on DS already and Peter making xombie go to three) I'd have gone that way, too.

And I guess it's just another coincidence that both the people he is willing to vote so eagerly and without another single thought are both innocent.

Seriously people, imagine this same kind of bandwagon day 1; What would your response be?

This?

Alrighty: This post is almost entirely misrepresentation of a scummy sort so you can attack me.

1) The Great Coincidence of gorc's 4th vote: Again- I was clear all along I wanted you or DS run up. It was chance that I was on so soon after Peter. But you keep avoiding anything concrete in my past, or even the other two. And you leave lateralus off your scummy quick lynch list.
2) Fence Sitting by gorc: Yep. Covered that, too.
3) The Innocents and Uncaring Votes by gorc: My vote on DS was calculated to pressure him to the max. I was convinced he was scum. I've been convinced you're scum.
4) What If This Was Day One, People?: This and number 3 are your Appeal to Emotion. Irrelevant, as well. Day 1 with only tells, contradictions and no role reveals is different from seeing two townies down, having developed gut feelings and hunches on who's who.

If DS had been given the chance that he should have had at -2 and -1, then perhaps someone would have revealed themselves in going after him, or a cop, if around, could have declared him innocent, or whatever.

The only thing you are right on is the quick lynch part. You're wrong on who to go after. And you've been wrong scummily.

Thus, you've constructed a scummy argument twisting things scummily. By itself, that makes you scummy.

If you want more, you give me more. I've been much more accomodating than you ever were with Occult, or mustafa (iirc, he went after you, too).

[gorckat]

Oh, and why no 10 page old quotes? You dug up old stuff on me, once, and I answered it.

[gorckat]

I stand corrected on lat- I had swapped him and flea on the DS wagon in my mind. Your list of names is correct, as far as the last three votes goes.

On the old quotes...so I can just repeat myself, but not use quote tags? That's what you seem to be saying.

My number three is directed here:

And I guess it's just another coincidence that both the people he is willing to vote so eagerly and without another single thought are both innocent.

I have given it much thought. I don't think you're innocent, despite your saying it over and over.

Is being eager a scum tell? If I was measured and slow, would that make my votes on you less suspect, if they originate from the same place?

*******************************
Day 3, Third official vote count:

Paradoxombie (2): gorckat, somestrangeflea
mustafa15 (1): Thesp
gorckat (1): Paradoxombie

Not voting: Peter Venkman, Occult, mustafa15, Lateralus

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[gorckat]

I didn't lynch DS- you're acting like my vote nailed his coffin shut. flea and Occult did that. You keep putting 100% responsibility on me, when it can't be done.

Tomorrow should be a slow day at work. I'll put a few more bricks in my foundation then.

[gorckat]

Lost Friday to dealing with some issues of my house purchase

Popping in to say, real quick...

I know this sounds odd cause he just kind of defended me, but I know for positive Xombie is innocent. im telling the best i can without giving away my role. xombie has made some good points against Gorckrat and as has Gorckrat and SSF against xombie. also those are the only two people who voted against xombie and it seems like (other the Occult with a maybe vote) theyre the only two that are trying to fit the noose around xombie.

There aren't many roles I'd expect in a Normal to be able to clear someone positively. I've no idea if you should fully claim or what right now.

Since I don't have the same info you claim to, I wouldn't make much of me trying to lynch him. He's been seen as suspect by more than myself and flea (and Occult).

Hopefully I'll get up to speed on anything since my last post early in the day tomorrow.

However,

unvote

, just to be safe.

[gorckat]

Huh. Rereading has me leaning towards believing lat's assertion of xombie's innocence. That makes the process of elimination to find scum a little different from what I was looking at before.

Eager to here from Aimee, obv.

[gorckat]

1. Like flea, I expected individual prods, then a group prod (deadline) to get things going. I know, based on Sefer's extending last time, that if the game picks up, we can have the time we need.
2. Nuetral/Suspect. His hammer seemed oblivious to the fact that it was lynch; earlier he'd said being careful with votes was pro-town. Assuming lat's clearing xombie is legit (which I think it is), he's moved up a place or two on my list.

[gorckat]

Really? Peter made up my mind for me?

Golly gee...I guess all the suspicions that I'd previously voiced about DS don't exist. Maybe some of that speculation that got zipped off into nowhere helped convince Peter...

It's also interesting that you go after the person who put DS at -2, not the -1 or the lynch. I haven't gone after Occult except with more than a FoS, but lat I was voting till your colon started spewing into the thread.

There's more to quote, but there's too much, and much of it has the same feel.

This feels exceedingly defensive and snippy. I get a real feeling of "How dare you accuse me of being scummy, when I haven't let on anything!" It feels really out of place to me, and makes a whole heck of a lot of sense from scumGorckat.

Fair criticism. At that point I felt like I was beating my head against and wall and having my words twisted around.

There was a point in this and another game I was letting my emotions run hot and forgetting the 'game' part. In this game, I actually thought being an ass the way I was would push xombie into a blatant slip.

I'm not thick-skinned enough to maintain that kind of behavior, and xombie seems to be town so it was doomed to fail period.

[gorckat]

Wow. Awesome effort, even if you end up scum

Here's how I see things:

If lat's town, so's xombie (which upends where I was on things, as I've said). I actually like the way Thesp has called me out and think he's on the town's side. Aimee's analysis seems solid. Peter could be scum sitting back and letting us nail an innocent without having to push for anything. Occult seems a little dicey to me. flea most resembles scum to me right now.

vote: flea

Most of this is based on intution and gut over interactions and actions day 3.

[gorckat]

@Thesp: What I meant was going to fail was making xombie out himself/slip-up by getting hammered on the way I was doing it.

@Peter: lat's post did set off alarms. There are some things in prior posts by him and his predecessors that helped me flip on it.

There aren't many roles I'd expect in a Normal to be able to clear someone positively.

He had said he wouldn't claim at the moment when he cleared xombie, and I basically said we all can guess what he is/can do. He hasn't added much since then, though, which is why I wasn't sure if he should claim. If he has additional info, then it would be of use.

As for my vote on flea, I've read and re-read his posts and Raffles. I haven't had a chance to build a full-fledged case with evidence, but his actions make me think he's scum. As Aimee pointed out, his flip on me from town to scum with lat is pretty dramatic.

[gorckat]

vote: Occult

I'm very certain that you and Flea are two of the scum (assuming 3+).

I know its the pot calling the kettle black, but so little (none) reasoning with a vote on a person some people are clearing, that's a little icky.

[gorckat]

Wow- Peter swooped in while I was composing

I'll go with either person- flea or Occult. I'm not their partner, but we can deal with that Day 4.

[gorckat]

Heh- and after my second post, xombie jumped in

I agree that Occult was let off the hook hammering.

[gorckat]

Just remember that if I'm town (and I am) Lynching me puts you in a lynch or lose situation (4 on 2, assuming there are three scum) tomorrow (which is why a bit more information would be useful).

I think he just confirmed himself as scum. Or he's drunk posting, because his math makes no sense.

[gorckat]

If it is 5v3 now, then lynching town makes it 4v3 and a succesful NK endgames us (barring special abilities, although given the recent MD thread, even that is up in the air) at 3v3.

If its 5v3 and we hit scum, it goes to 5v2 and the NK makes it 4v2.

[gorckat]

I'm not bussing, I'm pointing out facts- I'm not scum. If he's a townie, how does lynching him make it 4v2 like he said?

What I meant was his math doesn't make sense as a townie. What he said makes perfect sense as scum, per my examples.

[gorckat]

I start moving tomorrow. I didn't want to bring it up while the deadline was the 25th because I didn't want the scum to know I'd be afk, so to speak. Since the deadline is pushed back to Monday, I'll have guaranteed access by then and am comfortable saying so now.

I don't know exactly when I'm gonna break down my PC, but I could be back on as soon as Friday, plus any peeks while at my brother's, since he's helping me move and I'll be picking him up and dropping him off.

[gorckat]

So no other opinions on Occult's LYLO math? Or anything?

[gorckat]

flea was my 2nd best choice day 3, but I really thought Occult was scum the way he broke down the math.

I thought it was Occult, flea and probably Thesp, although I wasn't sold on Peter, yet.

John had said some things about the cases being made day 1, which combined with Quiggan's posts and lat's "arrested" comment about xombie that in sum made me feel confident he was, in fact, some kind of cop. I didn't think the breadcrumbibg/behavior could be cosistent across three players trying to be scum posing as cop.

Good game, folks.