Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!

[Peter Venkman]

/conform

[Peter Venkman]

At this point in the game the scum have the luxury of being outspoken and aggressive as every argument boils down to WIFOM. If done propery, they can control the game by shifting the focus to the player of their choosing.

I think it is also especially interesting that

Gaurdian

and

Raffles

are defending each other so early. With no voting record, or any statements that can be verified, they have absolutely no reason to be patting each other on the back.

I'm interested to see if my post will inspire a retaliatory OMGUS vote.

Also, most players have their mind made up regarding a day 1 speedlynch. Personally, I don't like them. I don't beleive this game is about luck, and that is why I play. I will approach the game as logically as possible, and not resort to dice rolls for any voting, ever.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I think Peter is misguided/scummy/hasn't read closely enough: I am the only vote for Raffles lol, and I still suspect him highly. Peter randomly throwing suspicion on my for protecting Raffles (which I have not done) is mysterious.

Try the third one. I didn't see your vote on Raffles.

It still does seem weird that he is defending you, especially since you are voting on him. I said it before, but he has no indication one way or the other regarding your role. Defending and attacking in day one is mostly WIFOM.

Scum has the liberty of being more outspoken early on, as they have several people who can defend their actions. With 1/4 to 1/3 of the players being on their team it is easy to sway the town in sublte ways.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Guardian, you are so night1 killed. lol. You are the most pro town player I've seen.

You shouldn't say things like this out loud. You should write them down in your own little notepad and make observations. For example, if Guardian is

not

night 1 killed, than you might have the begining of a case for scummyness.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I would also like to point out a VERY crucial bit of information that could easily be missed:

The members of the town rush out of the local saloon to see that the local sheriff and doctor have both been gunned down.

To me, this suggests no power roles. That gives the Scum incredible freedom to make accusations, form false bonds with town players, and in general post without fear of being busted by a cop. It also puts a lot of pressure on the town during end-game, as all we will have to go on is voting record and posting. This also allows scum to target whoever they want.

Without a doctor, It is highly likely that pro-town players, as well as players who are correctly picking out scum, will be targeted for night kills.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Either way, It is important to point out. I think in conjunction with the "Generic" part of the game title makes it fairly obvious that there are no roles. I would feel pretty mislead if there were in fact power roles.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

it was just me trying not to get killed, whether I be a power role or vanilla townie...

...or scum.

Scrambling to cover one's self is usually a scum tell. A town player should be making deductions and accusations based on reasoning. The town player will know that his posts will than be revealed as honest town play, and other town players can use the dead player's reasoning as a safe base. Sometimes it is in the town's interest for other townies to die.

In conclusion, the only people worried about dying this early in the game would be scum, who have a smaller pool of players.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Peter Venkman: Insists upon that we probably haven't any power roles. How can he be so sure?

I feel this is a misrepresentation. I pointed out what I felt was important information in the opening post. I still feel it is important, and will be skeptical of role claims.

This is my second mafia game

ever

. I could be reading into the "flavor" of the game too much. Either way, lets not further the role discussion as it can only lead to fishing.

Also, it is Easter weekend: the time when the people gave a hearty

Vote: Jesus Christ

. Remember some people celebrate this mislynch and the following suprise Role Reveal

(

You are: The Son of God. You come back two days after your death and are allowed two posts before ascension to heaven

)

... so give the non-posters some slack.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Whoops, I didn't think my vote would be taken semi-seriously.

I never thought i'd be saying this:

Unvote: Jesus Christ

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Were not even 8 pgs. into this game yet, I'd like to get a better read on the other players before I commit to a vote.

This is my feeling too. While I havn't used FoS's heavily, I have been fairly clear who i'm suspicious of.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

At this point in the game it isn't in the interest of Town players to try and lead. Everyone (except scum) is at a serious disadvantage, and for the most part, votes are going to be random. If we do hit Scum, it will be pretty lucky.

Right now, it is in the interest of scum to look very, very pro-town. They have the luxury of knowing who is scum and who is town, thus, they can make lengthy posts that lead the town in the directon they want. During the course of discussion other scum can slowly hop on and give momentum to the vote. When the mislynch comes along scum just go "awww geeze, it is tough to find scum! oops!"

I'm skeptical of anyone who pretends to beleive in his convictions at this point. Guardian, you shouldn't know anything more than the rest of us do. What makes you so certain in your convictions? Why are you trying to steer the town?

I'm also incredibly interested in why other players are defending other players. We don't know ANYTHING about ANYONE. Mustafa15, your post looks more like a defense of Guardian rather than a vote on Avinyl.

Vote: Guardian

FoS Mustafa15.

FoS on the rest of you voting Avinyl. He's -3 to lynch now: if scum aren't allready voting on him, they can finish the job with a few "well, that makes sense!" votes.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Wow, way to defend yourself in the meaneast way possible. I didn't even vote on you.

Your vote seems to follow Guardian's. I wasn't planning on pointing this out, as I hoped other town players would see this. This combined with your complete lack of reason for defending him doesn't look good to me.

I assume town players are smart enough to catch scum tells, therefor I try not to announce them when I spot them. I don't think it is a good idea to try and push other town players in any direction. I vote, I state my reasoning, than I let the people who are actually trying to out scum think about it.

Townies don't need to look pro-town. They state their logic, make votes, and often die. See, a town player dying

can

actually help the town team. A scum player dying rarely helps the scum team.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I didn't take it personally. Just a game. Your response has been noted though.

Since I'm not doing much, I'll take a moment to address this point:

Is it ever not in the interest of scum not to look very, very pro-town?

For scum, this is the essence of the game. How do you appear town when you have opposite goals? You have to put on your "town" face, and this is harder than you might think.

Good vanilla town players don't care if they get lynched. They speak the truth and do their best to logically out scum. This is the difference.

Guardian appears to be very interested in staying alive. He even said so himself. If you choose to make the "he's a newbie" excuse you are engaging in WIFOM. Is he really a newbie? I'm especially suspicious of his response was essentially "I don't care, I just want to stay alive." That isn't a pro-town attitude. Remember, this just came after I pointed out to him that Town players shouldn't be obsessed with living.

Also, the wikipedia entry should have some sort of "do not use this as the bible" caveat. If the wikipedia entry says "scum does x and doesn't do y" I assure you that scum will do y and not do x.

..and since I've gone and made such a big deal out it I expect everyone to now come along and say "Oh man, I don't care if I die! I'm town!" See why I try not to point out scum tells and just vote?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

<rolleyes>

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, your posts seem to be obsessed with reasoning that it is OK for a pro-town player to die...

You misread. The death of a scum player is significantly more important early game than the death of a town player. At this point town shouldn't be scared of death, whereas Scum are.

Peter, are you sure not to point out scum tells? I asked this as a question, and got two responses (posts 197 and 198) that I should point out any scum tells I see. I am just trying to play the game correctly and lynch people I see as potential scum...

Oh yeah? So you play at the whims of several posters in this game? I asked you why you were so certain in your convictions. I expected you to respond along the lines of "I'm not."

Notice how Occult has FOS'd Avinyl (post 186) - the one point of reasoning I agree with Peter on is that scum could now jump on Avinyl and lynch...

Wrong. Scum would be foolish to wait for a -3 to lynch and than quick bandwagon. I would expect scum to try be the 3rd or 4th vote on a player. Nice and unsuspicious.

Unvote: Avinyl Vote: Occult

Yep, just moving from player to player hoping for momentum to grow.

FomS: Peter for saying that we should not defend other players, and then defending (directly) Avinyl

My suspicion was due to the willingness of the players to put Avinyl at -3 to lynch. This is still early game and I'm sure we can all agree that quicklynches don't befefit the town. Don't mistake this for me defending him, he can do that himself.

I also think it is interesting that I went for your least suspicious to a FoS just because I voted on you.

Would you be more comfortable if I put my vote on Mustafa15?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

To me, that just reads like an out for scum. "Oh- I thought you'd pick up on that!"

If there were a hard and fast book of tells, then I'd agree. But you yourself said:

Also, the wikipedia entry should have some sort of "do not use this as the bible" caveat. If the wikipedia entry says "scum does x and doesn't do y" I assure you that scum will do y and not do x.

Do you see how you can extend my wikipedia analogy to my in game play? If I say "you are behaving like x and I think that is scummy" than I can no longer expect any remaining scum players to do x. If I stay quiet, I might be able to catch scum buddies doing that same behavior.

I assume the rest of the town is smart enough to pick up on these tells. If scum think they are getting away with them they will continue to do so. A good townie is a patient townie.

@Gorckat: Why do you turn to Guardian for scum pairs? We have confirmed nothing this game, and saying things like "If player X is scum, it follows that Y and Z are also scum" is pretty much meaningless until we determine if X is actually scum. Maybe keep your potential scum pairings in your MafiaScum notepad until we have more information to work with...

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I was in a similar debate in another game where a palyer refused to state who they thought the scum were

I've quite clearly stated who I think is scum and why. However, you are correct in thinking that I don't want to post my thoughts on every little tick.

he (Guardian) has issued several theories and I want to see him stack them up for review.

I agree, he has accused and voted on a wide variety of people.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@ Vel> I hope you'll forgive me if I don't come up with an exact page number. I've never been comfortable doing that.

A better guage would be amount of posts from specefic players. I feel we have gotten a lot of good information on the majority of the players, and don't mind if things are moved up a gear. I'm not ready for a lynch, but I am ready to put pressure on people.

Why would you think that should've been his reaction? If you feel that someone is scum, you go after them.

I'm not sure I follow. I feel I put a lot of pressure on Guardian. Through my posts I made it clear that at this point no-one really can be secure in his convictions. If Guardian was thinking clearly I would expect him to have seen my logic and at least agree on that point. Instead he completely contraditcs my post.

You however, can read my post and pick out pieces you agree and disagree with. To me this demonstrates you are applying straightforward logic and a single motive.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Is it any concern of the scum what happens in the day? Some nice mafioso might look out for their fellow scums, but most just gets on with it. What has day got to do with their objectives? Just so long as they themselves don't get lynched, all is fine. Scums have night kills. They don't need lynching to kill. Then a good scums just forget that they are scums themselves and get on with scum-hunting as they would do normally.

Raffles it looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I see mafia players try to manipulate the day-lynch all the time.

Looking at raw odds, it is likely that a town player will be lynched day one. Knowing this, a good town player shouldn't freak out (like Guardian has) when facing a potential lynch: chances are good the town will just lynch another townie.

Sure, a good town player should defend himself, but clearly stating your game intention as staying alive appears scummy to me.

The town players can afford a day one loss, whereas a day one scum loss is twofold: they are statisticly closer to losing the game and they lose a voice of manipulation during the day.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

To EVERYONE:

If you havn't noticed, the forums have undergone some severe problems, and several posts have been lost.

Even if you have no comments, POST IN THIS THREAD to let us know you are here. I will ask for Mod-Prods on anyone not responding within 24 hours. Lurking is a scummy (and annoying) way to play the game.

Also, it might be helpful to the mod if you restate who you are voting on. I can imagine how confusing this must be for them.

Vote: Guardian

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I disagree that a good town player doesn't care if he gets lynched. A good town player will not get him/herself in a situation where he could be lynched. In that way the town player will not need to worry whether they're going to get lynched or not. A town lynch does nothing but help the scum out, so it is in every Townie's best interest to not screw up to the point where the rest of the town wastes a lynch on them.

I agree with you somewhat. However, often times a lynch will occur simply because people have different playstyles or game philosophy.

What I don't like about Guardian is his admittance to his desire to stay alive, his constant vote switching, and lengthy poor-reasoned posts describing why.

He is at the top of my "who I think is scummy list." This isn't to say I'm certain, I just vote the top of my list.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@ John> It is hard for me to take you seriously. I cannot defend gut feelings, yet I don't want to ignore your accusation.

Guardian is my no1 suspicion, followed by Mustafa15, followed by John. These three have displayed some interesting voting patterns, cover for each other, or just ignore some fairly important posts.

After everyone has re-confirmed I'd like to put pressure on one of those three. Thoughts?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

<Sigh> It isn't that complicated and the people who don't understand it are applying it to a broader scope than intended. It is my oppinion that a town player shouldn't play to stay alive. If you simply spend your time trying to oust scum than you shouldn't look suspicious and thus no-one will vote on you. If you play to stay alive, you will look like scum.

Guardian seems to be playing to stay alive, in fact, he admitted so.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, your repeated reasoning that townies should not be afraid of dying is at best misguided.

Yeah, well I think your continued misrepresentation of what I said, despite my several attempts at clarification, is pretty scummy.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I await Peter's reply to my post.

The Guardian/Peter debate got interesting with both saying they were being misrepresented...I need to go back and reread the posts in question to see who's right, being too sensitive or just working stuff up.

Both are just attacking each other. Peter says that a day one lynch is most likely going to be townie and says Guardian is suspicious for being too defensive in trying to stay alive. Guardian basicaly says the opposite.

My veiws
-They seem to be trying to distance themselves from each other.
or...
-They're blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

I would go for the latter. It is a bit off-topic for a distancing to be honest.

Raffles has it right. I feel further discussion on this topic is a distraction to the town. I'm sorry it went on this far.

It is my oppinion that a town player shouldn't play to stay alive. If you simply spend your time trying to oust scum than you shouldn't look suspicious and thus no-one will vote on you. If you play to stay alive, you will look like scum.

This is my position stated several posts ago, and also

part

of the reason I feel Guardian is scummy. Previous posts were a poor attempt at clarity.

--

@Guardian, can you focus your attention on ousting scum, rather than fighting me on semantics? I promise I'll do the same.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@ Peter> The way you have been playing is what my concern is. To me, you have been on the outside, interjecting your opinion, not lurking, but in my opinion, not saying anything that may shed light on you.

I'm not sure what you could possibly want. I've participated in this game tremendously and voted. Is this a fishing expedition for roles?

Also, i get what yoour saying about how a townie lynch is okay, but it should always be a priority to stay alive, because you being alive ALWAYS helps your side

Assuming you and I are both town, how does you staying alive help the town more than me staying alive? Do you understand that all vanilla town players are equal? Do you see how perhaps if all town players play with their number one priority as

staying alive

a giant problem will arise?

What about power roles? Should a vanilla town player do everything in his power to stay alive if he suspects the town might have a cop?

My biggest complaint with Guardian is he takes every single qualifier out of my statements when he quotes me.

For example:

You misread. The death of a scum player is significantly more important early game than the death of a town player. At this point

town shouldn't be scared of death

, whereas Scum are.

All emphasis mine. Peter, these are the only posts (or at least the great majority of them) where you addressed your reasoning about how towns should play and how they should think about town deaths...

You directly say that town shouldn't be scared of death, yet you say that my paraphrasing you by saying that

townies should not being afraid of dying

is a misrepresentation of your logic?

I clearly said "at this point" refering to day one. Yet Guardian cannot see the qualifierss, and continues to quote me in terms of absolutes. I understand there are grey areas, and obviously different actions are appropriate at different times. Read Post 266 again and see if you notice Guardian miss any other qualifiers.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Man, Avi, is your connection just a string connected to a tin can in Växjö??

Soon isn't soon enough.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Guardian>

Others have made it clear this discussion isn't helping the town, and I agree. I'm willing to drop it.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

What, you have a problem with people voting Guardian? Why are you so concerned with his survival? He's pretty vocal in this thread, and can certainly ask the very question you just asked...

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

for him, here, it's a great reason to ask that we drop the subject, but then he attacked me earlier for taking Vel's and gorckat's advice on how to play the game

No, unlike you, I realized this conversation isn't helping the town. Constantly butting heads over a single issue gives the scum an easy out, they don't have to make their own arguments and can just agree or disagree while we make incredibly long posts about nothing.

Its great for him to say that we shouldn't play to stay alive, but if pressure was on him it would be interesting to see if he would still not try to stay alive...

In the event that I do get lynched or night killed, I feel I've made excellent posts that are a true attempt to help the town, and the remaining players will read my posts with a closer eye knowing whatever information the admin reveals.

ebwop: thanks John and I agree

More evidence of you and John supporting each other. I have no idea why players would put such trust in each other at this point.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

when the rest of the players didn't jump on, he said "ok nevermind, this is distracting".

I don't play to win friends here. I wasn't expecting a pile on, nor do I think that is necessarily appropriate. I am making my arguments and presenting them to the town.

I think it is interesting that Guardian is attempting to divide the town over what is essentially an argument over

style of play

.

Regardless, I feel everything that can be said on the subject has been said and I'm willing to let it go. I suspect Guardian will feel the need to get the last word in on the subject, and challenge me on a few more points, but I will not reply. We have wasted enough pages on this subject and the town can make up their own minds.

If the lurking players are scum, we have given them a curtain to hide behind. If the lurking players are not scum, than a large percentage of the present players

are

scum, and that gives them more influence than normal.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Guardian>

I would be down with pressure votes on Mustafa. I've mentioned before my suspicion of him, and agree with you, his posts are all very content free. Perhaps we can mend our little spat and get together on a vote?

Unvote

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, what's your take on all this?

My take on what? Guardian and I got into a

playstyle

debate. If the town thinks a lynch is appropriate on those grounds than this is going to be a tough game for us to win.

...and still, no one appears to understand the significance of having so many lurking players for so long. If we assume they are scum, than the Guardian/Peter debate becomes fairly arbitrary. If we assume they are town, than

the majority of this game has been played with scum having a larger percentage of active players, thus manipulating the outcome to a greater degree

.

So, who has been attempting to guide other players? Who has been rallying? Who has been supporting other players?

...and for the love of god,

WHY

have they been doing this? Everything that happens on day one is a WIFOM argument. No single town player has any reason to pat another on the back, or say things like "So and So makes a good point." Until we have some voting records and confirmations no town player has good reason to trust anyone else.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I see you said something, but all I hear is, "Boo! Boo! Be afraid!" without actual contribution to the discussion.

I

have

contributed. A lot.

Why are

you

trying to control the pace of this game?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

If no townies lead, then who shall we follow?

I assume the town players are smart enough to make up their own mind. That and

at this point

a good town player is suspicious of everyone.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Thesp>

Does your feeling about John remain the same? Still voting on him because you think he is the SK?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

So... Thesp... still voting on John because you think he is the SK?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I distrust John, and was curious about your reasoning. I wanted to get it out of you before I added my own vote.

I don't agree with your SK accusation, but I think John certainly isn't pro-town.

Vote John

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Gee Guardian, why you are trying to lead a bandwagon? It is day one mate, and while you might be so incredibly convinced of your own reasoning, it is still a WIFOM argument. The players can make up their own mind, yet you insist on pushing us.

Also, are you going to call me "Peterscum" the whole game? It isn't an argument, rather, a piece of propaganda. I have a name, please use it when refering to me.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Interesting catch CTD.

That appears to be the most "solid" evidence that has appeared day 1. Everything else I've seen so far are hunches, WIFOM arguments, or baiting attempts.

Unvote. Vote Vel-Rahn Koon.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@VRK.

Because you didn't post any reason for your vote on me I had to do some digging. This appears to be the best thing I can come up with. If you have a better reason, please share.

Assume Peter is scum. He went after Guardian for a bit of a nit-picky reason (Guardian's stance that Town players should play to live).

...to keep going after someone for such a personal issue is a bit like arguing about gun-control or abortion rights - it's difficult to sway someone's opinion in this case.

...I get the impression that Peter kept hitting this as one of his only arguments for Guardian as scum, and when the rest of the players didn't jump on, he said "ok nevermind, this is distracting". A change of tack was warranted if Peter is scum because he isn't getting the necessary town reaction.

Well, which is it? Should I have continued to attack Guardian despite how it is "difficult to sway someone's oppinion"? You certainly outline a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation.

Welcome Thesp, glad to have you with us. I like your play style btw. Very interesting way to get reactions from people.

So, when I put pressure on someone to get a reaction, it makes me scummy. But when Thesp does it, it draws your admiration. Oookay...

If you feel that someone is scum, you go after them. You pressure them, you make them slip up.

Uh... unless of course, the person you are putting pressure on is Guardian.

Seriously VRK, do you have a good reason for your vote on me??

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, nice bandwagon

Bandwagoning with whom? CTD is voting on Mustafa. Are you even paying attention?

Further, the "Lets kill Peter" train has been primarily You, Guardian, and Avi (a lingering vote from the past).

So... who is bandwagoning?

If you had

good

reasons for voting me they would be ready on your mind, and a quick post would have done nicely. Looks to me like you need time to dig through my posts to pick some stuff out. Have fun with that. I look forward to your awkward acusation.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

...for clarification, I said Guardian because as soon as his replacement came along, he unvoted me.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Wow, almost 36 hours and only Paradox has posted.

I don't have anything new to add, but I would like to remind everyone there is a deadline approaching. The scum aren't going to stand up and reveal themselves. If you aren't comfortable lynching someone

now

, you won't be better off when the deadline arrives

unless you start some conversation

.

Avi hasn't posted in 11 days.
John hasn't posted in 6 days.
Raffles hasn't posted in 4 days.

...and a whole lot of you are at three days.

I would like to see Avi replaced, and John and Raffles given a prod.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I attacked VRK because of Post 41.

As CTD pointed out, and VRK admitted, he estimated those numbers with three scum. He didn't add any caveats. It sounds like someone who knows the exact number of scum. Later, when confronted with the new knowledge of a possible SK (which scum wouldn't know about), he adjusts his numbers.

In addition, his treatment of me isn't consistant. I outlined my feelings not even one page ago in Post 455, and Post 462.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Do you understand the difference between saying "There are 3 scum" and "there are 1/4 to 1/3 scum player?"

One is an exact number, one isn't.

Either way, your defense of VRK has ruined any chance of him doing it himself. I don't know how the hell you people expect to out scum if you aren't going to put pressure on people.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

PickMeGenius, are you being dense on purpose?? I don't know how to respond to you.

I am curious why you are defending VRK. Don't think I forgot you replaced Guardian.

I'd also like to remind everyone of

THIS

VRK Gem:

Guardian is town.

Glad you two are so tight. Why??

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

For those interested in voting patterns, here are the two closest to lynch we've had, followed by the current trend on me. Also note, that these votes are in the order they were received.

3rd Vote count:
Vryklan (4): Avinyl,

Guardian, mustafa15, Vel-Rahn Koon

7th Vote Count:
Avinyl (5): John,

Vel-Rahn Koon, mustafa15, Guardian

, Occult

10th Vote Count:
Peter Venkman(2): Avinyl, Vel-Rahn Koon

If you havn't been paying attention, you might have been able to guess who puts the next vote on me. Yep, PickEm/Guardian. Anyone want to guess who is going to be on after that?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

You got on him for guessing scum #'s (which you have done)

No, I didn't get on him for guessing scum numbers. No one has. Rather, CTD posted an excellent discovery. I just agreed. Why can't you understand the difference? Why aren't you voting on CTD?

And his inconsistant view of you, which I don't view as weird, because this is a game of mafia, rereads can create different opinions on people.

You are correct, re-reads do create different opinions

because we have new information when reading the old posts

.

I just don't see much to your reasoning of voting him.

Of course you don't. As outlined above, I expected you to OMGUS vote me the second VRK laid down his vote.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@PEG, sorry, I misread, thought you had voted. My point still remains valid, as you are certainly defending VRK and attacking me.

----

@VRK, thanks for finally giving us your reasons. I think it is a little unfair that you didn't use a single quote in your entire argument, or even bother linking to the posts in question. If my words are so incriminating, why did you have paraphrase

post by post

with your interpretation?

Most important, you ignore every instance of me qualifying my argument with statements like "in day one." You conveniently drop those, and paint me in black and white. You are correct in that some of my arguments appear absurd when you apply them to situations I didn't intend.

Some specifics:

Guardian is dividing the town over an argument of playstyle. This isn't a one-way street - both of them are guilty of this, but Peter rests the blame squarely on Guardian.

I realized this and dropped the argument, Guarding did not. You attacked me than for doing so. Why is Guardian excused from this behavior? Oh yeah, he is a noob. I have one complete Mafia game

ever

, but I won't hide behind a noob defense.

Guardian leading a bandwagon (how?)

Have you allready forgotten all those "lynch peterscum!!!" posts??

deadline approaching, appeal to emotion to find someone to lynch.

Appeal to what emotion? Until CTD made his post, the town had no quality arguments from anyone, just random speculation.

There have also been several incidences of Peter contradicting himself. There's no blatant scummy post that I can point out - everything taken as a whole is what I have a problem with.

I was correct than when I predicted you don't have a good argument, and instead were going back over my posts looking for petty discrepancies. This quote reads as something you will use in your defense on Day Two when my role is revealed.

If lynching me today seems like the better play for everyone, then so be it.

Objectively, I think we should lynch the person that appears most scummy and has given us the most information to work with. Than Day Two we can use that as a springboard to launch further discussion.

I like the idea of lynching you because:
a) You appear somewhat scummy
b) Some players have come to your defense
c) You have defended some players.

This gives us some information to work with Day 2.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Lynches gain momentum by a person's reaction.

Initially, CTD noticed a discrepancy in VRK's behavior. A few votes were placed on him, and his reaction was judged.

it seems like you and Peter are pushing very hard for this lynch based on the flimsiest of evidence.

This is true. Do you have a better alternative for Day One? Most arguments boil down to WIFOM at this point. Personally, I think pushing hard on as many people as possible during day one is a good thing. Often times people reveal the most information when they are close to a lynch.

I listed why I like a VRK lynch, but this was under the assumption that there was a deadline. I don't mind if Day One lasts another two months, as there are lot of players who have not been put on the spot.

@PickEm> You took your vote of VRK why? Because CTD said something you think is stupid? That shouldn't have

anything

to do with the logic at which you arrived at your VRK vote in the first place, as you were skeptical of him to begin with and claimed "Peter makes the better argument." This leads me to think your VRK vote was just there to avoid suspicion later.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Wow, your tone is pretty hostile.

what's it matter to you?

Well... see... I'm trying to make character judgments. Every little thing everyone says matters to everyone playing this game.

You admit to putting a vote on VRK despite thinking it was lame reasoning. Why? What do you expect us to think your motivation is?? I clearly stated VRK as appearing scummy, than voted. You: state you do not think VRK is scummy, and voted for him when town momentum was growing and a VRK lynch appeared likely.

Now that the deadline has been removed, you remove your vote.

What sort of Day One evidence fits your definition of "concrete"?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

VRK, your argument against me would have been solid if you had used actual quotes from me. The fact that you had to paraphrase everything to fit your preconceived notion of my role speaks volumes about your conviction.

Guardian had better reason for his "lynch peterscum" campaign than you.

In addition, I simply cannot ignore the connection you two have. You defended Guardian for absolutely no reason, especially when he and I were equally guilty of engaging in a playstyle debate. When PickEm replaced him, he defended you briefly, than placed an un-necessary (and reasonless) vote on you, than quickly removed it.

The whole reason for voting me is because I picked 3 scum

This was my reasoning for placing the

first

vote on you. Since than, your reaction has been interesting, and the interaction with other players has given us more information to work with.

Regardless, when a town player faces impending lynch (which you were) it is often customary to give a list of opinions of all the remaining players. In this way, the town has a nice summary of the dead person's thoughts and can proceed armed with the role reveal.

You seem to have a good grasp of the Mafia forums, and the lack of such a post leads me to believe you don't have the Town's interest in mind.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Anti-Town:
Peter

Indeed, because contributing the most posts to this game, pressing the most players, and aggressively hunting scum is "Anti Town."

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I'm not here to make friends. I don't care if calling someone scum offends them. In fact, if it

does

offend them, that is a pretty interesting reaction.

then he (peter) would've gotten pissed

Why are you characterizing me as angry and reactionary?

To let you know in advance, I'm not responding, it'll take us nowhere.

Cute. Can I play that game too?

From here on out, I will not respond to anyone questioning my motives. Sorry guys, that's just how I roll.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Gorc> I agree with you. However:

Yeah, yeah- half quotes. I just don't feel like you've been straight with us on your reluctant vote on VRK. I think it was to avoid noticeably not voting him so you could avoid suspicion later.

This only works if VRK is scum. I'd like to find that out first.

If VRK is scum, than PEG gets my next vote.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Good, Peter has been running this game

I havn't been

trying

to run this game. If there aren't any other outspoken players that is unfortunate and reflects poorly on the rest of the town. I've been trying my hardest to keep this game progressing with a lot of players doing the absolute minimum.

I'm also curious about your "Peter has emerged as a leader and therefor is scum" logic. How exactly do you think that would work out for the scum team? The leader's credibility disappears as soon as a townie is mis-lynched, the absolute most you could get is a one for one trade. Being that the odds are greater of a town lynch during day one, it makes more sense for the scum to just sit back and scratch their heads, throwing doubt out

only when one of their own is about to be lynched

. You and VRK have covered each other in that way, in addition to voting in a block.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

If either pickem or VRK turns out to be town, my eye will turn toward the CTD/Peter contingent

Please outline why a scum player would take a strong, outspoken and aggressive stance towards a player he

knows to be town

during day one.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

The Lurker List:

mustafa15 - 8 days
Paradoxombie - 6 days
Raffles - 4 days

Prod requests for all!

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

So that he can influence the lynch of a townie and then point back and say "Well scum would never do that!"?

Fair enough. My point was that the

best

scum could hope for is a one for one trade. This seems pretty stupid because if the scum did nothing there is a better chance town would randomly lynch one of their own.

You're straying into WIFOM territory there.

Woah woah, I didn't, you just made up a hypothetical Day Two argument for me than accused me of WIFOM.

...and than the chorus stopped by to agree with you. Hi Mustafa, you're just in time.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Again, as you're so fond of saying, town shouldn't be outspoken and shouldn't try to lead. Once again, you're contradicting yourself by doing something you've said that pro-town players shouldn't do.

What part of "I

havn't

been trying to run this game" don't you understand?

Given the poor posting history of the majority of the players, the people who have been here since the beginning are going to stand out.

I have been putting pressure on players because I don't know how else to oust scum. What else do you suggest?

Of course he is. As previously stated ad nauseum, all of Day 1 is nothing but WIFOM....

Uh, why is this an attack against my character? Do you disagree? Or are you just going to spit out sarcastic one liners in hope that it detracts from my arguments?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Nope, you are extrapolating an argument from an Aristotelian question. My point was that for scum to come out strong against a town player Day One is a really terrible strategy for the scum team. The best a scum player could hope for is a one for one trade.

You, however, are imagining WIFOM arguments that could take place during Day Two. Am I a smart scum player, doing something stupid than claiming I would never do it because it is stupid? Well, that question doesn't exist unless your role comes up as town. I don't think that is likely.

I considered not posting what I did at all, but I realized that Death's innocent comment could damage the town in ways he didn't intend. If unchecked, he was setting the precedent that any player who actively pursues scum is guilty of being scum himself.

I'm just tired of seeing you say that we shouldn't do something and then do it.

I believe the majority of your problems comes from the playstyle debate I had with Guardian. I don't feel that I've contradicted myself, but if you can use direct quotes I'll be glad to explain my reasoning.

presenting your arguments inevitably leads to directing

Maybe it directs the weak minded players. I think it is important for everyone to give detailed reasons for their votes on players. It frustrates me that you are blaming me for the pile on votes. I wonder too, if I had just posted "Vote VRK" if you would attacked me for a content-less post.

your being a bit too defensive in a good portion of your responses lately

Aha! So responding directly to questions/comments addressed to you is a scum tell! Put it in the Wiki!!!

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

PickEmGenius>

How do you feel about the person who you replaced not missing a day of posting since he left this game?

Why do you think he wanted out so bad??

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Nice try what?

I'm not allowed to ask questions and gauge responses?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

It was a fishing trip. Some arguments are better than others.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I have no idea why Vel-Rahn Koon Keeps insinuating that all First day discussion is WIFOM.[/quote
He is doing so because earlier

I[/i] insisted that all arguments Day One are WIFOM. He is jabbing me and attempting to point out my own contradictions.

Umm. Yeah.

How is that helpful? All you did was quote the entirety of what was DIRECTLY ABOVE YOUR POST with a sarcastic retort. Why do you continue to defend VRK? What do you know about him that the rest of us don't?? What are you doing to help the town?!

I think after monday(Im going to assume that we are going to go all the way to the deadline) everyone will have a lot more to base their votes on, and everything said will be shead with a different light

It certainly will be nice, but until than, we can still get reactions from people. For example, I'm still not happy with Mustafa's posting history. He lurked for a long time, than gave us a "I'll post soon" line. I suspect he is laying low just to keep himself out of the fire.

I'm also looking at the non-voters. What, after 23 pages and a few longs weeks you don't think

anyone

appears scummier than the rest?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Your posting style has become increasingly mean spirited. This is just a game mate.

Sometimes making a really dumb argument gets a reaction from someone that is telling. In your case, it inspired direct insults.

I'm going to take a break for a few days. I believe I've said as much as I can for now, and your behavior reminds me why playing games on the internet with strangers can be such a sad experience.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

VRK, Guardian, and PickEm, you have me sincere apologies.

This is my first non-newbie game. I have a bit to learn. I think the biggest lesson for pro-town players is to not get cornered into a deadline. We had a lynch with just a few votes.

This post is partly just to let everyone know I'm still here reading the thread. As soon as we know everyone is back from that extremely long night I'll begin to post my Day 2 thoughts.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Perhaps I was wrong about PV and CTD. You three certainly are throwing a nice little blanket of suspicion on me.

I'm doing what now? Quotes please.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

EBWOP.

I see, that wasn't actually directed at me. <sigh>

@Thesp> why FOS

Team Quiggan

? I don't have much of a read on him

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Thesp> why FOS

Team Quiggan

? I don't have much of a read on him

Later.

No way man. You have been pulling that stuff all game. If you want to help the town, now is the time. Otherwise you have just been posting little goofy tidbits left and right, without any analysis.

What is

this

all about?

Sorry, I appreciate the three of you trying to shift the focus onto Peter, but you honestly couldn't be more transparent. When there are three players acting in concert throughout 23 pages, it makes outing you pretty easy.

I am convinced I've chosen the right group as scum. If we lynch any of the mustafa/VRK/pickem group, I am fine with that.

I like you, even though you're only 1/3 right.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Thanks for the reply Thesp

I liked his boldness and willingness to take a stab at who he thought was scum. The "1/3 right" was an allusion to that I agreed with one of his three picks for scum then.

I assume the 1/3rd you agreed with was Mustafa? What are your feelings on him now?

What do you think about Death's Day Two behavior?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

The lurking list!

mustafa15 - 5 days
Occult - 4 days
Raffles (excused?)

...and a whole lot at three days.

Vote mustafa15

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Whatever, you (and Occult) were active enough to notice someone calling you out on lurking without a prod.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Mustafa>

Checked Friday, than posted Saturday... oookayy...

You've had time to post some thoughts on what you think of people, but you didn't. Death appears to have some suspicion on him, and he cast suspicion on three people.

And than there's you. You've responded twice but can't even be bothered to respond to your half lynch. CTD thinks you are suspicious, and so does Thesp. I put a lurking vote on you, but so far you haven't done anything that is non lurky, so my vote stays.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Unvote
Vote: Occult

You're still lurking...

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Occult> I put my vote on you because I was working down my initial "lurker" list. Your Post 671 isn't content heavy, and I wanted more from you. Paradox appears to have joined the party since than, so I don't think a pressure vote is necessary.

Unvote

In all honesty, I'm getting pretty tired of the lack of participation in this game. I shouldn't have to be the lurking police, but since it has gotten some people to post, I guess I'll continue.

The Lurker List:
TeamQuiggan - 5 days
gorckat - 4 days

Vote TeamQuiggan

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, you can stop being the lurker police. That's the mod's job, you should be voting people because you think they are scum, not because they haven't posted recently. If someone has been too inactive, request a prod, and get back on topic of finding scum, not lurkers.

Don't tell me how I "should" be voting.

I understand this is the Mod's first time running a game. He has the thankless task of replacing half the initial players. These players couldn't even be bothered to play a game they signed up for and basically slapped the mod in the face saying "your time and effort means nothing to me."

The remaining players who choose to go almost a week without posting indicate to me that they are either completely uninterested in this game or are scum. No matter how you spin it, they aren't helping the town. No matter how you spin it, I am on topic.

I'm not in the mood to ask the Mod to do more work. He has already done more than is reasonably expected from someone is his position.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Day 1, Last official vote count:

Vel-Rahn Koon (5): Peter Venkman, Thesp, CrashTextDummie, TeamQuiggan, pickemgenius
pickemgenius (2): DeathSauce, Paradoxombie
Paradoxombie (2): gorckat, Occult
Thesp (1): Raffles
Peter Venkman (1): Vel-Rahn Koon

Not voting: mustafa15

Anyone care to hypothesize why PickEm was nightkilled?

Scum knew VRK wasn't scum. Would scum get on a bad bandwagon when the deadline would take care of VRK for them?

Would scum put a vote on scum to avoid suspicion?

Unvote

My FoS list:
Deathsauce
Paradox
Musafa15
Raffles

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

My questions were rhetorical mostly, I think there is some important information in that votecount that hasn't been mentioned.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I am not at all pleased with those players that decided to start throwing suspicion at me within mere hours of my posting

Nice! So all you have to do is say you are going to be gone for a few days and no one is allowed to talk about you anymore!

If you think a few little tidbits on the side are "throwing suspicion" than you have a guilty conscious. You were quickly forgotten, and we spent the rest of your time away attacking lurkers.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Why do you think scum would kill a claimed vanilla?

I thought it was more interesting that someone who had as much suspicion as he was nightkilled. His vanilla claim was what anyone would do Day One, regardless of role.

Again, my questions were rhetorical. I was hoping people would think about them, and wasn't expecting an answer in thread.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Vote Raffles

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Paradox:

No demand is unfair. If I asked you to jump through a hoop of fire to prove you are town I can

ask

that. The point isn't to see if you actually jump through the hoop, the point is to see how you react.

Your insistence for proof and constant requests to explain why every one of your posts is scummy is a reaction worth noting.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Yeah Deathsauce, the OMGUS votes don't do much for anyone.

You just went on about how you don't like Thesp... than the second anyone casts suspicion on you, you turn on them? Yikes.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Raffles hasn't posted in 9 Days... Prod... Possible Replacement please?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Almost forgot about this:

Why do you think scum would kill a claimed vanilla?

I thought it was more interesting that someone who had as much suspicion as he was nightkilled. His vanilla claim was what anyone would do Day One, regardless of role.

Not liking this at all.

You think someone with a role would announce it day one?

What don't you like?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I think I have never seen someone with a role claim vanilla unprovoked on D1, and I don't see why anyone would.

Uh oh... playstyle argument approaching! Personally, I think it makes more sense for a role to claim vanilla day one so they aren't the target of night kills. I might be incredibly off with my logic, but I'm letting you know how I think.

you didn't answer the question.

Gotcha, I thought it was implied, but I'll be direct.

I don't know

why PickEm was night killed. I think it was weird, and my question asking for theories was sincere.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I find it noteworthy that your first thought seemed to be that scum must have figured he was lying about his role.

My question about the night kill choice was sincere, as I honestly found it confusing. If you want to contradict that, use quotes. Right now you are making stuff up.

The most interesting play by the scum is the killing of Pickim, he was a huge heat score, and one of the unfortunates on the bandwagon against VKM, I would've assumed that they could've kept him around and beat on him for a day, and knock off another 2 townies, but I digress.

This was similar to my train of thought. If PickEm were around today, he would be making the same goofy plays he was making Day One.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Since I just sorted by TQ's posts I noticed he hasn't posted in seven days, and has only made seven posts.

Prod please.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

What don't you like?

The fact that you didn't answer the question.

Dude, list the damn question you say I'm avoiding. I have no clue what you are talking about anymore, and I'm tired of guessing.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I agree gorckat, it seems like clumsy distancing, as I alluded to above.

So when a player asks another player a question, he is distancing himself from that player? Of course, the only players who want to distance themselves from other players are scum... lot of players have asked each other questions...

Do you see where this is going?

I would feel more comfortable about you if your arguments didn't attack players performing the most basic functions of this game: asking each other questions. I would like you better if attempted to make a solid case against a player, rather than these scattershot accusations. Who

haven't

you accused during Day Two? If you get lynched, that information is going to be pretty valuable.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Peter, the interaction between you and CTD was far more than simply asking a question. I have read enough games to realize that minor internal arguments are fairly unusual between pro-town players this late in the game and that staged arguments are far more common between scum.

You're going to have to draw the distinction between "Normal Pro-Town" conversation and "Distancing Scum Pretending to be Pro-Town" conversation.

Until than you appear to just be waving your finger. You've done that a lot during Day Two. Like I said before, I am more interested in the people you haven't accused.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I'm a handsome devil. You know nothing about looks.

Other

people have been talking for 30+ pages. You have not. This game has been going on for several months. Most likely the dynamic isn't going to change unless you insert something new.

You had the luxury of reading this thread with no involvement in the discussion, why sit on your fresh insight?

You join this thread and start to defend Deathsauce, than when called out on it immediately pull away. And

I

look odd?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

What your saying is you basically have no real handle on the game.

That is a mean thing to say to someone. You try sitting down and reading 800 posts in one afternoon. It is hard to keep everyone straight when you aren't involved. Do

YOU

even have a "real" handle on this game? When was the last time you made a recap of every player?

@SomeStrangeFlea> Thanks for replacing, and THANK YOU for

actually

reading through the thread. It is tough to keep people straight, and when dealing with us in the future you might find the "sort by player" function helpful.

Peter Venkman - I don't know why, but I really hated the "If I asked you to jump through a hoop of fire..." line. I'm afraid I don't like the attitude of that.

If I asked you to jump through a hoop of fire to prove you are town I can

ask

that. The point isn't to see if you actually jump through the hoop, the point is to see how you react.

This was in response to Paradox moaning about unfair demands from other players. I don't think it is wise to limit ourselves to a certain style of questions. Sometimes the

way

a player reacts is more important than

what

he says. Getting that reaction might require unorthodox methods.

I don't understand why this quote, of all my posts, is your only highlight for me.

In conclusion: I fully expect you to jump through a hoop of fire. Right now. If you don't do it, you are scum.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I'm intrigued to hear why you took it seriously.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Prediction: the next person to put a vote on Deathsauce will be accused (by Deathsauce) of acting as CTD's scumbuddy.

My vote on Raffles was a lingering lurk-pressure vote.

Unvote

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Oh good grief.

Vote Deathsauce

You aren't scum hunting. You are flailing wildly hoping for something to stick.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Any particular reason I should defend myself against, DS?

I'm just curious why you aren't voting on him yourself, especially after this:

Save it for your NK, DS.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Bah, I have no clue anymore.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Thesp> I'm learning that my scum radar is piss poor. I was convinced VRK, Death, and Guardian/PickEm were all scum.

Earlier in this game I was accused of "leading the town." I wish I could keep up the momentum, but after two lousy picks, I'm not feeling it. In addition, I realize that my poor judgment is a tool that can be wielded against me now. For that I have no defense, and if it becomes an issue worthy of lynching I have further failed the town.

If I understand it right, all that needs to happen now for the town to lose is two townies to put their vote on another town, and the scum can end the game. For this reason I will not be voting haphazardly.

When I have seen enough arguments from everyone I will place my vote.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

While I don't like your approach at all, it feels very genuine and incredibly townie-like.

And with that, my opinion of you has been sway from "There's a small chance PV is Scum" to "There's a reasonable chance PV is Town". Well done! Very Happy

I appreciate the kind words. However, my guard is up. The scum players

know

who is town. I don't know why you two would clear me like that, especially when you haven't done so with other players.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Are you kidding me? In what way does a deadline benefit the town?

Did you all forget about day one?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Well I for one will be gone for a week, July 15 - 21. If the town is under a deadline, I will not be present to cast a vote. I feel a deadline would be very bad.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

After watching you two bitch at each other, I've decided to

Vote: Paradox

.

Because Caps Lock makes you look desperate to shift the focus off you.

And the five thousand exclamation marks isn't helping. Calm down please.

Flea> Does the second vote on Day Three have any important implications?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

FOS: SomeStrangeFlea

I'd be voting, but on Sunday I leave for a week.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Gorckat>
Why are you inclined to believe Lat? If you

really

felt strongly about Paradox his post would be sounding all sorts of alarms.

There aren't many roles I'd expect in a Normal to be able to clear someone positively.

Is this an attempt to throw doubt onto his potential role claim?

I've no idea if you should fully claim or what right now.

How would that help your opinion of him?

-Peter

P.S. I'm back from vacation.

[Peter Venkman]

vote: flea

Most of this is based on intution and gut over interactions and actions day 3.

...and, you had a LOT of reasons for your Paradox vote. Now you are voting based on gut feelings?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Hi Aimee, thanks for joining and doing one heck of a job catching up!

This is a very long response to your assessment of me.

Peter Venkman
I don't really understand why every argument in Day 1 is WIFOM - I hope Peter can enlighten me when he gets back.

During Day One the only players to have any factual information are scum. Arguments not based on fact are either WIFOM or gut feelings.

His outlook seems relatively one-dimensional - he says in posts 215 and 219 that scum basically have one way of acting, which is completely wrong.

This is straying off topic, I'll discuss specifics with you if you are inclined

Another example is this line: "A good townie is a patient townie."

Again, I see no fault in this. I firmly believe that MORE information is better than LESS. If a townie refuses to wait for more information, he will be making ill informed decisions. I wish I'd listened to my own advice.

I also don't see how not pointing out scum tells is at all pro-town...

I'm not a fan of "scum tells" in general, but that is for another thread. My point was based around the idea that sometimes attacking a player without giving him a complete reason can gain some useful information. For example: a nervous scum player might retaliate with OMGUS, whereas a town player would probably simply ask "why?"

He seems pretty consistently suspicious of Guardian/pickem throughout Day 1, and I'm not sure I like how resolute he was that Guardian was scum.

I made the mistake of confusing bizarre irrational behavior with scummy behavior. I made the same mistake with Deathsauce.

Overall, I found that he contributed mainly to theory

You are correct. I also vocally apologized and have since avoided game theory discussion.

and not discussion in Day 1, until the VKR debate. I also wrote in my notes that in post 421 he voted for John without reasoning, which is scummy.

Again, I'm not a fan of scum tells, I think it is better to judge a player by his reactions and disposition. I was trying to get a reaction out of John, who was lurking/playing irrationally. Based on the lynch record this game, I'll concede that my method might be severely misguided.

To be honest, I have basically no idea what to think about Peter, concerning the VRK debate - on one hand I agree with those that say VKR wasn't scummy

I don't remember any outcries against a VRK lynch

before it happened. If I'm wrong (and you think it important) I'll gladly discuss my thinking at the time

but at the same time I do think that Peter was justifiably on the bandwagon,

I think calling it a "bandwagon" is misleading, as there were only four votes. The lynch was from a vocal minority

and had reason and justification for his vote. Also, I sense that he wanted to lynch VRK for more informational purposes, as he wrote in post 449.

VKR labelled Peter as anti-town. His response is in 532. He says he is pro-town because he contributed the most posts (lots of which were devoted to theory)

I was frustrated with the participation. This game has been plagued by non-posting players and lurkers. Do we even have 50% of the original players who signed up? I was fighting to get players to post, and was very worried about scum hiding amongst the many lurking. While you are right that my mere presence doesn't make me town, at the time I felt I was one of the few players doing any scum hunting.

pressing the most players (I disagree) and is aggressively hunting scum (I would also disagree – isn’t this the guy who ignores scum-tells?)

I think the way you and I play this game are very different. I certainly don't ignore any information that has been put forth, in fact, I'm curious where you get that notion. I don't announce my every suspicion and am willing to ask questions without connecting every dot for the target. Again, I like judging reactions, and can reinforce my opinions of players using that method.

I also wrote that post 550 is WIFOM, but at this point I have been doing this for almost 2 hours so I am not going back to check (my definition of WIFOM is sometimes pretty skewed, so I could be wrong).

Day 2 sees a notable fall in activity from Peter. He seems almost apologetic in his first post, and then basically becomes the "lurker police". I don't see any real scum hunting going on.

My frustration pinnacled there. The majority of players were not posting and Day One ended with a minority lynch because of lack of involvement. Day Two was subsequently short because of a *real* bandwagon.

In post 691, he says scum wouldn’t vote for VKR

Why would they? The town was deadlined, no one was posting, and VRK had a majority. CTD couldn't have possibly predicted us to be in the situation we were in, I was the second voter, and Guardian placed the vote that pushed VRK over the edge, and he was proven town.

and therefore suspects Mustafa, Raffles, Zombie and Death Sauce. Interestingly, Gorckat and Occult are conveniently ignored from this list.

How is that convenient? Do you know something about Gorckat and Occult that I don't?

Also, why wouldn't scum vote for VKR? And Day 3 he basically says he doesn't have a clue and is hiding.

I've been on vacation, which I thought I had thoroughly explained.

Overall, I don't really know what to think of Peter. I could see him as town or scum at the moment.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

(For the record, when I was talking about the fact you didn't have a clue, it wasn't because you were on vacation - it was because in one of your posts on Day 3 you openly said you basically had no idea.)

Now that you are back, who do you think is scum?

You are right. When I said I had no idea, I really meant it too. I'm glad I waited because the following attack on Paradox and his responses was a great read.

Who do I think is scum?

SomeStrangeFlea
Gorckat
Occult

In that order.

Vote SomeStrangeFlea

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Also, Sefer has yet to undo the deadline:

WED, JULY 25th

.

A deadline right now is so incredibly bad. I don't even want to explain how bad it is. Just remember, with a deadline a minority of votes can win this game, and the discrepancy between Town/Scum is marginal.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I'm still learning this game.

If someone's math doesn't make sense, he is scum?

Gork... you really seem busy bussing.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Occult>

How do you feel about Gorckat and SomeStrangeFlea voting on you?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Good job scum!

-Peter