Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!
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Raffles
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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IGotMyEyesOnYou
Yes there is, and we discuss, discuss and discuss! If not finding an actual scum by catching them red handed, we can at least know who is more likely a scum and who is more likely a town. The more increased the chance that scum is killed, the better voting strategy.Guardian wrote:
In the way it was presented, somewhat, but really first day is there any better way to select someone than random die roll? Have you participated in games where people actually show tells first day? If so, or if I'm just terribly flawed in this logic, very soz and please explain
Yes people do often show tells on first day, I'm still not allowed to talk about it though because non of the games (barring marathon day) I've participated in has finished. Newbie 304 is the first game I was in if you are interested, day 1 lynch scene is on page 16.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Unvote
I feel great that we are out of random voting stage on day 1 at possibly a record time. But I have a sinking feeling we are going to go back to it once other 6 people appears. Anyway...
The bad thing about random-lynching on the first day is that you would have practically nothing to go on the second day either. If you could make a random lynch on D1, what to stop the mafia from making a random NK N1? Then you would have to do the same for D2. It just doesn't work.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Ah cmon, FoS would be the last thing I would expect for trying to get the game out of random voting stage. It's like me giving you a cake and you punching me in the nose. There's no reason why game should continue to dwell in the random voting stage, if anything get it out as quick as possible to get some discussion going.Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:How are we out of the random voting stage? As you said, we still have half of the players that haven't contributed yet. That's no reactions to go on for 50% of our players.
(Usually this is normally done by bandwagonning but I thought I'd try a more positive approach)
If we get enough discussion going, then there'd be plenty for late comers to analyze and we won't need to go back to random voting.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Well if the others random vote then there is nothing to analyze, even if we tried to analyze random votes, there would be strong WIFOM leaning strongly to "random" side (as the name dictates). If we give them stuff to analyze then we can analyze them back. I thought seeing as we are here we might as well provide a bit of material.
As for unvoting, it's something I do when we are out of random voting stage. I know we were still in the random voting stage, but to seeing as you came up with some questions, I thought it might be a good opportunity to take the lead to unvote and announce that weareout of the random voting stage.
There are no advantage to continue random voting on and on, I can't stress that enough. It's a waste of time.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Whilst speed lynching is always suspicious, there are so many things that are flawed in this statement.Vryklan wrote:Occult wrote:Vote:Guardian
Because A speed lynch request is always suspisious.
I'll second that
I also think that guardian isnt 'new' at all and could well be a very good player with either a) two accounts or b) has just played lots in real life but not online. New players hardly ever jump in with loads of posts right from the off.
First of all, a nitty gritty out of the way
1) As far as I'm I aware, actively using two accounts goes against the rules of the forum.
I can accept that he may have played this game in real life. The fact that he suggested speed lynch testifies it, which is a common trait on day 1 in real life games. But saying new players won't jump in with load of posts from the beginning is just wrong. In fact, this also testifies that he never played mafia online, or at least on this site. Suppose he played this game on similar site and is a scum, he'd show a far more lurkish trait and try to blend with the crowd. I'm not saying this happens most of the time but for the majority, it is the case. The fact that his first post was something of that length is a proof that he never played it online, therefore no basis to accuse that he is a scum.
Yes there is, look at his first post. His quotation is something you can do by clicking "post reply", then clicking "dice" option. I've never figured out how to use it because I think random voting through dice or random.org is far too sterile for my taste. But I know it's there. And he could have picked this up from reading through any old game.Vryklan wrote: There is no proof he actualy rolled a dice to pick raffles, it's just too much of a coincidence that he had already had a go at raffles and then "oh look the dice picked raffles"; i dont believe it for a second.
In fact if i was making up a random d12 result 11 is the number i would have gone for too which reinforces my point.
Vote: Vryklanfor coming up with crap reasons to bandwagon on Guardian. I expected better.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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A newb speedlynch is a scum's favourite tactic for D1. Exactly because newb tells and scums tells are so similar. A newb under pressure will react badly, even more compelling "evidence", = mislynch (or correct lynch by luck). This is why I'm telling to be careful of scums subtly nudging to lynch a newb.
I hope that answers Peter's question. This is why I'm appearing to defend Guardian so vehemently, even though I'm not trying to.
And speaking of which, I just found someone that fits the discription.
Exactly the sort of "nudging" that I'd expect from a scum. Why? His reason is Guardian "appearing so town like". This falls into one of the logical fallacies "too townie".Avinyl wrote:Because this was in the evening, i was tired, and i hadn't time to read. I also feel that it is better to random vote someone than to not vote at all.
However, Slight Finger of Suspicion: Guardian for appearing so town-like.
Too townie (for more info, look in the wiki) - Accusing someone for being a scum because the person appears too townie.
e.g. The guardian appears too pro-town. He must be a scum.
This is not valid reasoning, take a look at flip side of the coin.
e.g. The guardian appears too scummy, he must be a town
The second statement makes no sense at all. Therefore there is no reason why first one should. Luring town into a failed logic doesn't do well in my book, as my vote on Vryklan show.
Unvote, FoS: Avinyl, VryklanWoof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Vryklan wrote:Guardian wrote:I still have no real idea who the mafia is... someone claim?
Shotgun!Guardian wrote:Combined with this very good catch by gorckat and Vryklan claiming shotgun (mafia I assume) in post 108, Unvote, Vote: Vryklan!
Vrynks you tit. I was about to question a vig claim.gorckat wrote:Calling shotgun is a way of claiming the passenger seat in a car before it fills up and you get cramped into the back with 3 other peopleWoof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Well nobody said you can't put your thoughts into the discussion. What are you gonna do, go back to lurking?DLMF wrote:Aye, it's pretty difficult to get any word in when Guardian, Raffles and Peter V are dominating the discussion.
Gut feeling says I should stick with my original vote though.
Go on!Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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I don't count the d12 roll against him. We know each other, and we would both know we would vote each other for a laugh. That's what he meant by the emphasis of 11.
However, this on the other hand:
What did I tell you about claiming and ousting the power roles?Guardian wrote: I see your point. If I was/am a power role, though, I would be saying the same thing at this time in the game .
FoS: GuardianWoof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Whilst gut feeling is perfectly acceptable (some players have great nose for who is a scum), random and gut are two different things.
Random - as name dictates, totallyrandom. No influence from the game whatsoever, just a name out of a hat.
Gut - Based on how the game progressed, and what the subject has posted, you get the vibe that he is scummy.
You can't put the two together.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Okay so we know that Vryklan was not lurking, I still don’t see good explanation why Vryklan still has 4 votes on him.
VRK’s reason
[quote=”VRK”]
1. The first one is, I believe, a random vote from the beginning of the game. The others stem from Vryk not answering Gorckat's question in post 107 and then disappearing for 3 days (read: Lurking).
2. My vote is a pressure vote, and if his explanation to Gorc's question in 107 is answered to my satisfaction, I'll remove it.
[quote=”Gorc”] Setting aside that Guardian did use the dice tag, I fail to see how the number you would select proves that Guardian chose it deliberately[/quote] [/qupote]
First point is void. I answered it.
[quote=”Raffles] I don't count the d12 roll against him. We know each other, and we would both know we would vote each other for a laugh. That's what he meant by the emphasis of 11. [/quote]
2nd point is sort of a valid as a pressure vote stand alone. But you did say if the first question is answered you’ll remove the vote.
Mustafa’s reason
[quote=”Mustafa”] I don't count the d12 roll against him. We know each other, and we would both know we would vote each other for a laugh. That's what he meant by the emphasis of 11. [/quote]
Since your reason is same as VRK’s, I’ll expect an explanation from you as well once you get back.
Avinyl’s reason
[quote=”Avinyl”] Putting the third vote on someone is as good a reason as any for being random voted.[/quote]
Very old reason. I expect a better reason at this stage.
Guardian’s reason
[quote=”Guardian”] Well he knows Raffles IRL... And maybe he is a mafioso and would want Raffles out of the game. Combined with this very good catch by gorckat and Vryklan claiming shotgun (mafia I assume) in post 108, Unvote, Vote: Vryklan![/quote]
We have explained the shotgun too, this is no longer valid either.
I need explanation on why they still have the vote on Vryklan, since non of these are valid, save maybe pressure voting. I got a gut feeling that there is a very good chance that there is at least one scum on this wagon.
Of the four, I find Guardian suspicious the most. His reason is very stretchy, Vryklan explained himself on “shotgun”, yet he still hasn’t unvoted. His first part of wanting me out doesn’t really makes sense. And I also noticed that Vryklan has his vote on Guardian. I refuted his reasons, yet he still has kept the vote on him. I’m adding the consideration of scum-distancing. It would be interesting if Guardian actually turned out to be a scum.
Vote: GuardianWoof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Of the four, I find Guardian's reasons most lame, especially considering it was posted at the most latest of the four. He is an active player, his points have been refuted, but his vote is still on Vryklan. As a side note, Vryklan Guardian could be distancing, but this is a far-fetched and merely a consideration at back of my mind.gorckat wrote:And I'm not understanding the reasoning leading up to the vote on Guardian...could you rewrite it all a little more coherently?Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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You should never be convinced of anyone's innocence unless in extreme circumstances. That's not a reason to keep a vote on someone.Vryklan wrote:However as Raffles cleverly noticed I havent retracted my vote on Guardian and this is because I remain unconvinced of his innocence. In fact I'm sure i put an FoS on him as well...Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Few of my honest (I say honest because some are rather blunt) thoughts from reading since I left. I'm writing this as I read so I'm sorry if some points are repeated.
Can I ask why that is such a bad thing?DLMF wrote:FoS on Raffles, for being overly aggressive in scum hunting.
Isn't it more plausible that since we are best mates in real life, we were voting each other for kicks? Post 33 is still pretty much first page of the game. I find it amazing that you can deduce my current stance on Vryklan from that post.DLMF wrote:If both are scum, they voted/fos each other early on as a distancing tactic.Now both are confident the other is town (raffles post 33 and vryklan post 9)
Translation:John wrote:I'm posting to show im not lurking, but have no information at this time to contribute. Everyone is bringing up logical points, and I am unable to tell who I should trust. I'll try to come up with something by tonite.I'm lurking, but I'm posting a filler to stay off the lurker-list. I'm lazy and can't be bothered to find anything to comment on, let alone make an analysis. I can't form my own opinions, I'd much rather go along with what others are saying. But as it stands, there's no general direction of flow, so I'm staying out of this.
WrongPeter wrote: For scum, this is the essence of the game. How do you appear town when you have opposite goals? You have to put on your "town" face, and this is harder than you might think.
and wrong.Peter wrote: Good vanilla town players don't care if they get lynched. They speak the truth and do their best to logically out scum. This is the difference.
For the first one: Is it any concern of the scum what happens in the day? Some nice mafioso might look out for their fellow scums, but most just gets on with it. What has day got to do with their objectives? Just so long as they themselves don't get lynched, all is fine. Scums have night kills. They don't need lynching to kill. Then a good scums just forget that they are scums themselves and get on with scum-hunting as they would do normally.
For the second one: Towniesshouldcare about being mislynched. Assuming a game with no vig, if townies are only ones getting lynched then how the hell are you going to kill the mafias? It sounds obvious, but lots of people seem to miss this point.
Oh man am I the only one who is dirty-minded?Guardian wrote:hippocrit
Okay the first part I agree with, but the second? Wouldn't scums be scared of being lynchedPeter wrote: The death of a scum player is significantly more important early game than the death of a town player. At this point town shouldn't be scared of death, whereas Scum are.all the time? I don't know about anyone else but I have never seen a reckless scum.
I agreee with Peter's stance on regarding the revealing of information. However I think there's a balance you have to strike. You can't expect the town to pick up onallthe scum tells. Also, a better skill is to develop a discussion and accuse inconsistencies.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Again, as soon as there is a spotlight on Peter, (i.e. some flow) you join in...John wrote:Peter seems like very good scum to me, he is appearing very pro town and asking just the right questions. he's almost being too perfect of a townie, and it rasies my suspicions, but its mostly a gut feeling.
Raffels, i know it seems im lurking. but there are so little scumtells to me, i can't comment with any kind of content. the downtime kicked the shit outta my attention span as well, if it wasn't bad enough.
Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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No. Say there was no discussion. It's always a random lynch. Then the odds willVel-Rahn Koon wrote:Of course the scum care about what happens in the day. It's in a scum's best interest to get a townie lynched during the day, and then get another kill at night. If the scum don't "put on their town face", then they can't hope to appear to be scum-hunting, and therefore kill their chances of getting a win.alwaysbe in scum's favour, because there isalwaysmore scums in any given ongoing game. Then all scum should care about during the day is not getting himself lynched.
Manipulation becomes important in later days, when scum cannot go and lurk.Woof!-
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Still, this is still a hypothetical situation. But suppose everyone could act a perfect townie, and they do so. Then the lynch choice would be no better than choice made without discussion. There would be nothing to go on. Therefore scums would act a perfect townie, and leave the NK to whittle away the town.Vryklan wrote:But there is a discussion and a bloody long one at that. So its not a random lynch its a lynch in the townies favour hopefully so if the scum sit back and don't care they will find themselves on the lynch list quickly.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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I would put Lurking as 3). The typical order I usually see would be
1) Acting scummy - note the definition: inconsistency and/or scum-tells
2) Unhelpful townie - "This person could be a townie but he is acting unhelpful to the town, so we won't lose out much even if he was a town"
3) Lurking - I've not seen anyone gets lynched just solely from lurking. This is usually a side dish with either 1) or 2) as the main course.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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I'm in an agreement with musfata here, the fact that Guardian think townie should be afraid of dying is very much a mafia theory which is only vaguely related to context of the game. (I'm sorry if it is a bit of a coarse overview, I started skimming the argument after halfway through) It will certainly give us no help concerning determining one's alignment.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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John, you missed the point of my post. What I was implying was we should wait for the replacement rather than lynching lurkers. If anything is dangerous, it's lynching lurkers precisely because you have nothing to go on, and what you are taking is a pot shot.
@Thesp - How on Earth did you determine all that in one go?Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Eaaasy.Thesp wrote:(1) Since you think that failing to give reasoning is anti-town, please show reasoning that justifies your position that failing to provide reasoning is anti-town; and
(2) Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the opposite. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not? Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action X, even if X is unintentionally harmful.)
1) You came up with quite a lot of bold statement. Basically you walked in, started pointing fingers to assign antagonist roles. When questioned for reason, you flat out refused to give any. This confuses your bog-standard town. What is he doing? Does he actually have a read on anyone? Or is he a scum who just used a blatant WIFOM on us? During the night, cop investigations are used on you, when they could be better used for targets like lurkers, who are really hard to tell their alignment. And if you are town, this is a waste of investigation that could be prevented by showing a less anti-town play. During the day, we are going to take whatever you say with a pinch of salt. What if you actually had a good investigation? The previous anti-town play would backfire on you on your credibility.
2)I repeat this many times... you are getting the whole concept wrong.
Scum => anti-town ("=>" means implies)
Anti-town =/= scum
Anti-town = Good lynch
The last statement is true because at later stage of the game, it is detrimental to have an anti-town townie. If it is to get to lylo situation, a anti-town townie could throw a town side completely off. The bottom line is this. Lynching anti-towns should be up there with lynching all liars.
By the way, do you realize that question 2) you've thrown at me is an utter thick concoction of WIFOM?
And the above argument is just presuming if you are town. If we presume you are scum then we got even better reasons to lynch.Woof!-
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@Thesp: Yes... a typical raw reaction to what you wrote would be "WTF?". I'm not sure how much information you can gain from that.
Tell me why you disagree.
If you really want to know, the argument you presented is a variant of too townie/scummy argument. It's a branch of WIFOM, and you laid it out in plain daylight.
You asked a question, and you FoS without waiting for a response? And at such a pathetic reason?Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Sorry, missed it. But speak for yourself. You never said why you disagree with this
[quote="Raffles]Anti-town = Good lynch
The last statement is true because at later stage of the game, it is detrimental to have an anti-town townie. If it is to get to lylo situation, a anti-town townie could throw a town side completely off. The bottom line is this. Lynching anti-towns should be up there with lynching all liars.[/quote]
statement.
What you are telling me there in red is this.Thesp wrote:(2)Show that scum are more likely to fail to give reasoning. Some of what I've seen shows the opposite. (Also, often townies do anti-town things as well, do they not?Showing (1) may be irrelevant, if it is also the case that townies are more likely to do action X, even if X is unintentionally harmful.)
-Scums can be more logical than a town. Therefore if you see a illogical town, don't automatically assume he is a scum. He could be town.
This is unacceptable as the argument here is one of "Too scummy" argument. This argument gives scums free reign to spout out logic that is about as watertight as a net, which case you would have no idea how to hunt out a scum. Speaking of which, I have a question. If this is still your theory, how do you propose to hunt out a scum?Woof!-
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@Thesp - Sorry this is late. I'm panicking because of dawning realiation that I don't know shit for exams. But I'm going to keep this blief so I can get back to working.
Scum-tells don't exist. Wiki testifies to this. Wiki tells you that tells should be taken as a guideline at best. And no one has updated mafia-tells until 2004. In my view, scum tells are so unreliable at catching a scum you might as well not use it. It's like a car that is almst guaranteed to break down on every journey it makes.
Then the best the town can do is to cooperate with each other until there comes a point the scums has to do something anti-town because it conflicts their interests too much. This is where rules of thumb like "LynchAllLiars" come from.
I'd like to have gone into a little more detail but I don't have time. That's a very condensed argument of what I wrote couple of days ago.Woof!-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
- Mafia Zcum
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- Joined: January 17, 2007
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