Mini 453 [insert title here] -- MOD ABANDONED

[Aceiks]

a /confirm for the /infirm

[Aceiks]

use a mirror

That didn't work

[Aceiks]

not so random

vote: teffc

since being able to pronounce your name should be a requirement.

[Aceiks]

Duuuude, I was totally told to use the mirror.

use a mirror

It just didn't work.

[Aceiks]

unvote vote: TrustGossip

Because modding the Numbers Game is by far the scummiest behavior in this thread thus far.

(that's L-3 if I'm counting correctly)

[Aceiks]

This is my first Mini Normal game, involved in a newbie game in that forum (371 if it makes a difference).

Have completely read 10+ games (mainly mini normal).

Although I'm not sure I agree with your statement that L-3 is dangerous. With 4 scum (+- 1 I believe) if we see 3 bandwagon votes on Trust in the next two hours then that kind of gives us most of the information we need.

If random voting never puts anyone "in danger" then what reason is there for scum to ever open their mouths.

unvote

while I learn more about this.

FO

unwarrented

S:

TrusGossip

[Aceiks]

Perhaps my sentence could be better understood with an example.

Scum is below L-3 and thinks "I am not in danger... I don't need to defend myself or start any discussion".
Scum gets voted to L-3 and thinks "I may be in danger, perhaps I should start talking"

If no one ever gets put into danger, then I don't see the scum needing to ever open their mouths... they can lurk to their heart's content.

(this post does not imply that I think TG is scum) [/disclaimer]

This might be worded better:
"If random voting never puts anyone "in danger" then why would scum ever open their mouths?"

[Aceiks]

Sorry for the addition, forgot to ask remus if he had any reason for saying L-3 was a little too far or if he was reciting a party line.

Why is L-3 too far?

Although, if he was was bandwagoned, and happened to be vig; and mafia and SK didn't crossfire the whole game, then it does get down to 1 town, 1 mafia and 1 SK on day 4. But this situation requires quite a few improbable events to occur all at once.

Is a bandwagon of 3 scum on day 1 an event that worries people?

[Aceiks]

Apparently asking you questions is like trying to stab fire.

I guess we can continue random voting for the next 5 days and not let anyone get over 3 votes. And talk about mirrors, needing boys to relieve stress, and similar initials for the whole time. I'll be out of town anyways, so it'll make it easy for me to catch up.

In the games I've read (probably not as many as you've participated in), discussion on day 1 is initiated the majority of the time by either someone doing something stupid, suspicious, both, or someone defending themselves against votes. There needs to be a catalyst to the beginning of discussion. This mystical "however it [starts] at that time" that you speak of glosses over what actually occurs. Observe the discussion (albeit of limited usefulness) that has occurred after the L-3 vote. People have learned something about me, and something about you. Hopefully we'll learn something about others soon.

But as mentioned earlier in this post, I'll be out of town for the next week, but should still be able to check in once a day.

[Aceiks]

The above post is directed mainly at remus, didn't think anyone else would be talkative tonight.

[Aceiks]

In regards to parentheses and read: usage, I point out the first sentence in today's Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com) site. Considering Tycho is considered, by many, to be a lesser god of grammar, Sonicpulsar has won this match. I'll try to post something more productive tomorrow, but being out of town for this seminar is making it hard.

[Aceiks]

Sorry, I'm preparing for finals. But I did catch something:

Although, if he was was bandwagoned, and happened to be vig; and mafia and SK didn't crossfire the whole game, then it does get down to 1 town, 1 mafia and 1 SK on day 4. But this situation requires quite a few improbable events to occur all at once.

Unvote, Vote: Aceiks

Dude, roleguessing on page 2. That just doesn't sit well with me~<3

That wasn't a real roleguess on my part. Remus had gotten on me about putting Trust at L-3 and I was thinking out lout about why he was so worried. Trying to answer my own question of if he did get bandwagoned somehow, could that theoretically put us at lylo. I was speaking purely in hypotheticals.

[Aceiks]

but still pointing a FOS at Aceicks for his roel fishing. and for the fact that in post #43 he wrote

Although I'm not sure I agree with your statement that L-3 is dangerous. With 4 scum (+- 1 I believe) if we see 3 bandwagon votes on Trust in the next two hours then that kind of gives us most of the information we need.

i kept wondering why he posted this part...because as long as we have mafia among us they'll know what you're thinking. unless you are linked to them and telling them not to vote in a very subtle way

Well, if the mafia need me to tell them that a 3 person bandwagon on Page 3 of Day 1 is a bad idea then they aren't very smart and us townspeople should have an easy game. As in the last post that you brought up, I was trying to get Remus to answer my question of why L-3 was so dangerous. Remus still hasn't answered any of the questions that I directly asked him regarding that. And he hasn't even shown up to discuss his current L-2. This avoidance leads me to believe this is warrented:

FOS: Remussaidow

I'll give him a little bit longer before voting in case it's RL issues causing his lack of posting rather than lurking.

[Aceiks]

Perhaps I should have clarified my statement as "a 3 person bandwagon with no reason". My random push of Trust to L-3 back on Page 2 was for no reason. The fact that if 3 people jumped on that bandwagon in several hours it would be quite suspicious should be self-evident. Perhaps that's why I thought it was safe to say out loud.

The bandwagoning of Remus right now is different as he has behaved suspiciously and now is nowhere to be found. Which is what I think of that.

[Aceiks]

Yes it's specific and yes it is baseless and on information that I don't have.

But it's not speculation. It was simply speaking in hypotheticals. "If X then Y". I could have just as easily said "If we lynch the panda then the serpents will kill the DVD player tonight".

No where did I say or imply that I thought X was the case or any specifics about the game or roles involved. Well, I did say that there were 4ish scum, but I think that's a given in this type of game.

[Aceiks]

Pardon me for arguing semantics, but aren't speculating and hypothesizing more or less synonymous? I see the case against Remus, but I love my vote right now.

I guess I'd agree that speculation and hypothetically speaking is similar but different in a subtle way. Atleast in how I'm using the terms. Speculation I would consider as me saying "I think that case X is what we have here". This would be me taking all the situations that could conceivably exist , and, based on evidence, selecting several that I think could be the case in this game.

Speaking in hypotheticals is taking all the situations that could exist and saying "IF situation X is what is going on, THIS is what would happen". In my case, it was taking the worst case scenario and applying that "What if?" to the game. Just me thinking aloud about why Remus charged me for pushing the game too far. It was only a worst-case scenario that I had come up in my mind, and in no way did I say that I thought it was the scenario we were playing in.

[Aceiks]

OK- on my rant about putting someone at l-3 with a random vote. Its that calling it a random vote is a cover. You are trying to burn someone's feet. don't call it random, don't call it anything its not. Post 57, chaosomega called it exactly what it was. I have nothing wrong with that, except that i'm the target.

Ummm... I guess if I had said it was random then you'd have a case. Perhaps I assumed that since I explicitly stated I had placed him at L-3 people would realize it wasn't a random vote but had reasoning behind it.

[Aceiks]

Well, I could have explicitly stated "Random bandwagon vote to try to get info". I just thought that was implied.

And you are taking FAR too much credit for "getting us out of the random voting" stage. All you did was ask a question because of my vote. But my vote was caused by three other votes. And their votes were caused because superstring opened the topic. So your high horse for your noble deed seems a bit unwarrented.

[Aceiks]

There isn't much suspicious about an L-3, why the big fuss?

Why is L-3 too far?

@remus why is random voting helpful only to scum?
how did you move this game out of random voting?

A list of "attacks", or, as I would say, "questions you have not answered sufficiently quite yet".

But as a relief of the "attack Remus" monotony I would like to ask a question of Qman of why you completely misrepresented Remus in post 117

He will not claim no matter what

This isn't even close to what he said, as even a casual glance would indicate.

You're "I'm not going to vote until he has a chance to defend himself" stance seems like a ploy to allow yourself to vote for him no matter what he says.

[Aceiks]

And apparently I have no idea how to use "Your and you're". Apologies grammar police.

[Aceiks]

Eteocles, welcome and thank you for the posts.

I believe I have discussed my reasons for my so-called speculation and showed why it shouldn't be considered speculation anyways. I have seen, through viewing past games in the Little Italy room, that a red count of 4+-1 is standard for a game of this size, which is where I got that number.

I would challenge that if you aren't thinking about possible game scenarios, then you aren't fully considering the consequences of the actions you perform in the game. I apologise for saying my thoughts outloud.

[Aceiks]

There is no way you can map out a setup on day 1, or even a hypothetical one.

Actually I can map out a large number of hypothetical setups on day 1. I could create a list of them right here. It would include everything from 1 red, to 6 red, with some number of power roles thrown in for flavor. I was only choosing one of the worst-case hypothetical scenarios to try to figure out why Remus jumped on my L-3. Since he didn't seem inclined to answer my "L-3 question" at that point of the game, I was trying to answer it myself.

[Aceiks]

Although, if he was was bandwagoned, and happened to be vig; and mafia and SK didn't crossfire the whole game, then it does get down to 1 town, 1 mafia and 1 SK on day 4. But this situation requires quite a few improbable events to occur all at once.

How does this explain anything?

Let me run through the sequence of events and my thought process real quick. I put TG at L-3, and Remus said that L-3 was too far, which didn't make much sense to me. So I started wondering what would happen if 3 scum managed to hammer him real quick. I assumed only scum would vote since if L-3 was too far, then L-2, L-1 and hammer would be as well. So the town would know who 3 scum were with only a sacrifice of 1 townie. Which seems like a pretty good deal, but if the events I described above exist and occur, then it results in a game the town can't win. Which I guess means that L-3 really is too far, but only if this worst-case scenario is what exists; which is the point I was trying to make.

Instead of proposing the killed player was a vig, I should have generalized it into "the town only has one method of killing scum and doesn't stop any night kill". Essentially, my worst-case was that town were killed at 2 per night and only killed reds at 1 per night.

Actually I can map out a large number of hypothetical setups on day 1. I could create a list of them right here. It would include everything from 1 red, to 6 red, with some number of power roles thrown in for flavor.

And how does this help us at all?

It doesn't really. You just stated that I couldn't map out a hypothetical setup on day 1, and I was pointing out that mafia games branch from a finite list of possible setups. I still maintain that if you should consider what consequences your actions bring in worst-case scenarios. Which is what I was considering earlier this game.

[Aceiks]

Not really holding my breath, it's called summer classes and a typically asinine start of Day One (this is only half-sarcasm, I would prefer not to be labeled counterproductive).

In the interests of renewing productivity, would it be too early to make little behavioral analyses on everyone? I find that even if scum use it to slander innocents, it generally provides good information from intelligent townspeople.

I just got prodded.

Nothing important or significant has really happened since I last posted.

*rapidly grows bored again and leaves*

1. Why are you relying on others to provide content to comment on? Where are your thoughts on all of this?
2. Viewing your posts from recently in this thread, calling you counterproductive would probably be accurate.

I'll wait for you to get unbored and come back. I'm not feeling all the lurking in this thread, but singled you out since you were the only one that didn't promise to come back and post something.

[Aceiks]

I repost this question I asked of Qman on the previous page:

But as a relief of the "attack Remus" monotony I would like to ask a question of Qman of why you completely misrepresented Remus in post 117

He will not claim no matter what

This isn't even close to what he said, as even a casual glance of his posts would indicate.

[Aceiks]

I repost this question I asked of Qman on the previous page:

But as a relief of the "attack Remus" monotony I would like to ask a question of Qman of why you completely misrepresented Remus in post 117

He will not claim no matter what

This isn't even close to what he said, as even a casual glance of his posts would indicate.

See my post #120

No, I saw that post. You are saying that the meaning that you got from his post was something that he didn't say at all. I'm confused as to why you say the meaning you got from his post in no way related to the wording.

[Aceiks]

vote TrustGossip

for significant lurking

[Aceiks]

because the attention in an early lynch goes immeadiately to the hammerer.

I also claimed. And was not a power role. Scum don't want me, they want to out said power roles so that they can remove the town's helpers.

These are both good points. If I may take them out of order. The second is actually a point I consider in your favor, especially with the prevalance of the LAL philosophy deterring false vanilla claims.

I think Sonic addressed the first, if not clearly, at least understandably enough that I hope I can add some more to the discussion.

I think I might be able to summarize what I believe Sonic was attempting to present into "a short day 1 that results in a town lynch is a very good thing for scum". I believe we can all agree on this, so can say that it would be beneficial for the scum to have lynched you (assuming you are town). One of the two better situations, for scum, would be a short day 1 that resulted in a power role lynch. Which your second point brings up.

In response to "the hammerer will come under direct suspicion" let me say that ANY day that results in a townie lynch will cause that. So scum may tend to try to not hammer. The best that scum can hope for is a townie hammerer, which is a valid reason for the scum to wait in this case, since the reasons for voting for Remus were thin to begin with. This is the second situation that is better than the one Sonic is discussing that I can think of.

In summary (assuming Remus is town) there was a reason for scum to hammer (short day 1, town lynch) and at least one reason for them to wait (short day 1, town lynch WITH a town hammerer would be superb). I'm not quite sure which of these would be greater. I tend to believe the second since they also have the option of waiting, starting another bandwagon, and trying to get a power role as Remus points out.

To all lurkers

You may be looking at this thread, thinking it's boring and leaving. It's boring as a DIRECT result of your inactivity. The 5 of us going around in circles is bound to be repetitive. Perhaps us actives should consider some pressure. (Yes, this will bring the scum calls upon me, color me desperate.)

[Aceiks]

Ace, comment on the discussion between sonic and myself, if you're still around.

Done, and if I may... my name is Aceiks.

That's more for you calling Sonic an idiot than the "My name is Remus" comment. Paraphrasing something I read on this board "Write like everyone in the game is your friend, think like they're your enemies". I may have botched that horribly, but I think I got the gist. I'm actually alright with being called Ace.

[quote = "ChaosOmega"]I haven't posted for a longer period of time than TrustGossip. Just wondering why you singled him out when there are other people doing more of the same thing.[/quote]

I disuss, to an extent, my singling out of TG in post 156. I did miss you and Haut in my quite unscientific browse through who hadn't posted recently. TG's post is really what got under my skin enough for me to single him out though.

[Aceiks]

In other words, I think a lynched townie (even if only Vanilla) on Day 1 far outweighs the negatives associated with immediate suspicion cast upon the hammerer, even if it would have been a scum.

But maybe that's just me.

But does it outweigh the possible positives of getting a power role and/or an actual townie hammer? I kind of think not. But now we're getting into subjective territory.

[Aceiks]

Pardon for multiple posts, but Chaos, you haven't posted in 11 days. How did you happen to show up 20 minutes after I did a lurk vote? That's a fair amount of coincidence.

[Aceiks]

I have to do writeup summaries of three games I'm in so expect one within the next two days or so.

I'll be posting soon.

I'll review everything tonight and post tomorrow.

I WILL DEFINITELY POST TODAY AT SOME POINT

So many promises. None of them kept. Thus ends one of the most useless pages in mafia history. Although TrustGossip did come back to say he wasn't available.

*sigh*

[Aceiks]

unvote

vote remus

Although I wish I had a "vote lurkers" option.

[Aceiks]

the only clearly protown player in this game.

This statement + self vote =

vote: remus

[Aceiks]

L-1 if I'm counting right.

[Aceiks]

Remus, winners never quit... etc....

and we're down an SK already, so I think the town is ahead, through luck or not.

[Aceiks]

my side

already lost

If you were alive still, and I could double vote, I would.

[Aceiks]

PM sent to superstring. Hopefully the sun will set soon.

[Aceiks]

It's been awhile for this game, will look over and get some thoughts down tomorrow some time. Hopefully with the smaller size we'll get some more participation. Otherwise, we'll keep playing like crap I imagine.