Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville - Game Over who won?

[MeMe]

vote: Guardian

You heard me.

[MeMe]

Yeah...I think I'm getting the picture.

Rusty, Nanook?

[MeMe]

Voting without saying anything is a Scumtell.

Really? Please back this up if you can.

[MeMe]

Guardian, I do actually agree with you that short posts don't give a lot to go on as far as discerning alignment -- but that's not quite the same thing as a "scum tell" as town need not worry about going out of their way to appear townish any more than a duck needs to worry about appearing ducklike. Nor, for that matter, should short posts be automatically dismissed as lacking content as there can be a lot of strategy in holding back, regardless of alignment.

That said, though, I'll...

unvote: Guardian
vote: YogurtBandit

...as I find a blind echo of an unsupported idea more disturbing than the initial statement.

[MeMe]

Well,

that's

interesting (neither Nanook nor Guardian had posted when I started typing -- no, I'm not a slow typist, I'm just helping my son fill out job applications simultaneously).

[MeMe]

That indicates

no

SK to me.

Lovin' my vote.

[MeMe]

Nekka -- I don't speak fluent flibbertigibbet, so if you could tone it down, I'd appreciate it (I'm pretty sure, from a glance at your posts elsewhere, that you are

able

to post non-confusingly or I'd not make the request). Or is that some kind of posting restriction?

YB -- I love my vote because I've got a big heart. And because I think it's currently in the best place possible. Now that I've responded to your question, I'd love to see you attempt to provide the examples for which I asked you earlier.

[MeMe]

This is exactly why I disagree with MeMe that townies have inherent townness, as dogs have inherent dogness...

I didn't say they have inherent townness -- I said they needn't worry about appearing town. Being middle-of-the-road is my preference so that I'm not obviously

anything

-- I don't

want

to be "cleared." That way, I'm a less attractive night kill target and the doctor probably won't be tempted to protect me. It's a good strategy that keeps me alive without wasting our resources -- I might get investigated, but that's cool, as I likely won't have been killed and the cop can use that knowledge rather than having wasted an investigation on someone who died overnight. Get the picture?

Also, asking about a post restriction in a mini normal?? Adel I understood, but you know better than that - you run the queue for heaven's sake!

You know, Guardian -- sometimes strategy is subtle. Asking about a post restriction isn't the same thing as thinking it's probable...but hearing the reply to that suggestion could've been interesting before you went and, basically, told Nekka-Lucifer not to consider it.

Seriously. When you read my posts, try to keep in mind that I'm an intelligent human being who understands this game -- see if looking at things that way helps you follow what I'm doing.

Also, Guardian, if NanookTheWolf is town, he has just as much right to be irritated with you as you do with him. You going out of your way to say "I think he's town because he wouldn't have done that" just paints a target on his back if he

is

. See, telling everyone "hey -- I probably won't be willing to lynch so and so because I think they're town" means that scum won't want that person around. They prefer to leave people alive who might be lynched (which goes back to my first point)...so vocalizing belief in others isn't what town should be doing at this point -- save that for endgame.

Town are looking for scum. If you think you've identified town -- great, but keep a lid on it unless they're about to be lynched.

[MeMe]

YB -- you went from guaranteeing that Guardian is

not

cop and voting him to saying that you believe that there are two cops while neglecting to unvote him. Please make up your mind and then clearly tell us what you've landed on.

Also -- if you are a cop, PM the mod and ask him what he can tell you about your sanity.

[MeMe]

So, why are you still

voting

him if you currently lean toward belief that he's a cop?

And have you PMed theopor about your sanity?

[MeMe]

I'll

unvote: YogurtBandit

for the moment.

[MeMe]

If I had to choose between the two....Hey! I

don't

have to choose between the two!

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

[MeMe]

*sigh*

[MeMe]

Meme: what do you do when some random dude asks you to marry him in the middle of a game? Ignore him? Claim you are married? Oh yeah...

Consider that he may be scum trying to distract me?

And I *think* Yagami might have his list reversed -- but I could've just misunderstood everything he said in his post.

Also, I find it very interesting how so many people can request a reason for a vote -- why not let the votee take care of himself?

[MeMe]

Adel -- if your theory is that between 1 and 3 scum are among the less active...that means you believe that up to 2 scum could be in more active group. Because of that, this is next-to-useless in practicality. We could take pretty much any six random players and say "at least one of those are scum" and probably be right.

I'll also point out that it's a mistake to judge a higher word/post volume to be synonymous with higher content -- though I'm certainly in favor of getting those who

truly

aren't contributing to do so.

[MeMe]

Adel -- I assumed that because you used the phrase "active" you meant "talking the most." My mistake, apparently.

And aren't you voting Guardian? How does that make sense in light of your newest proposal?

[MeMe]

Should be "word 'active'" or "phrase 'most active'" above, obviously. I know that a single word isn't a phrase.

[MeMe]

Fos: ChaosOmega, Nekka-Lucifer, Nanosauromo, Erotomachia, MeMe, YagamiLight

for being behind the curve in posting content, pretty much in that order.

Hehe. Glad you used the "behind the

curve

" as your measurement -- as everyone knows that a curve can be thrown off artificially. In most games, there'd be no way someone would accuse me for posting at my current level. Basically: I'm here, reading, and contributing when I think I should and with

restraint

when I do. If all pro-town players did that, finding scum would be quite a bit easier as we wouldn't have to sift through town-generated noise. There's a reason that many experienced players

apologize

when they submit a lengthy post.

To summarize: attempting to bully everyone into playing it your way is not helpful. Choose one person you think is the most scummy (and, sure, use your "least content" method to determine who that is, if you desire) and pressure that person. If scum is in your list, I doubt they're very nervous as that's a

big

list.

[MeMe]

Nekka-Lucifer, why not grace us with your observations about what you

have

read? If you don't, I can't help but wonder if you ever got "close to the end" as you claim.

[MeMe]

unvote: Battle Mage
vote: Nanosauromo

[MeMe]

Do you mind saying why? not once did you ever vote Nanos before unless I missed something. I would understand just unvoting Nekka/BM since it seems your vote on him was a pressure vote.

Apparently, I

did

mind saying why or I'd have done so, yes? Yagami -- unless you're completely ignoring my (and Nano's) posts, you shouldn't have any problem figuring out the reason for my vote change AND why I chose not to spell it out. That FOS is ridiculous.

But, I'll repeat what I said when I got "whyed" for my vote on N-L (which you seem to understand

now

but, apparently, completely confused you before): why not let the votee take care of himself? Why does a second vote on a player concern you so much that you need to dissect it before the votee even

registers

it?

[MeMe]

Just a FTR comment

: I also signed up for the game because of the deadlines -- if seven people ask for an extension, I'll be a sad MeMe.

[MeMe]

I could pretty easily switch to Battle Mage.

[MeMe]

Just to clarify, Battle Mage, you

are

lurking. You've just offered an excuse for doing so. Considering that I count 7 games in which you posted content without resorting to your exam excuse in any of them --

after

telling us you you couldn't do it here (and

implying

that you weren't doing it anywhere) -- I'm not buying it. This is the only one under deadline, so it should be the one game that absolutely "warrants" your attention.

If you can post everywhere else without excuse of any kind, not doing so here must be deliberate.

unvote: Nanosauramo
vote: Battle Mage

[MeMe]

You haven't "go[ne] away for a matter of months" -- you're all over the site. Quit pretending you don't have time and play this game or get voted for ignoring it, simple as that.

[MeMe]

I have no idea what "gtfo" means -- but I'm sure it's delightful!

Do you have any explanation -- any at all -- for why you are able to post actual content in other games? Also, could you please link me to the "various other" games where you've been getting "alot of this shit recently"?

And, keep in mind, I'll be able to link to a lot of other games (and a newbie game sign up) where your exam pressures do not seem to exist...

Battle Mage, seriously. If you are town, you should at least be able to concede that it looks suspicious that you're giving attention elsewhere while pleading exams here. Lashing out isn't a defense -- it just makes you look like you don't have anything

real

to say.

[MeMe]

Just to make sure you're aware: deadline's in less than four days (about 89.5 hours away, if I'm figuring it right).

Of course I want to hear what you've got to say -- the problem is that you're telling us that you're not gonna say it until there's very little reaction time (and what reaction time there is will be over the weekend -- when our site takes a participation dip). If you can carve out, say, 30 minutes for this game

exclusively

within the next 12 hours, that would be stellar. Since you knew (or should've known) that 1) N-L was getting attention for non-contribution and 2) this game was under deadline when you replaced in, I don't think you can seriously call that an unreasonable expectation.

[MeMe]

Mafia on a Train

: checks out. recent bandwagon on and blow-up by Battle Mage

The New C9

: no votes on Battle Mage

Stargate

: no votes on Battle Mage

So...tell me how I should interpret this, BM.

[MeMe]

And being twice labeled "opportunistic" for switching from a healthy bandwagon to a player with zero votes is pretty interesting. I get why BM would try that (perhaps even

think

that), but Guardian joining in while claiming buying BM's story without checking his "proof" is a pretty cool notation.

[MeMe]

I just realized that BM was providing links to games in which he

isn't posting content

...but I thought he was providing links to games in which he was getting the "shit" he claimed in response to my request.

OK -- that's a little less weird than my assumption that he was providing examples that didn't support his claim of getting grief.

(Sorry for the triple)

[MeMe]

I've just looked at his most recent posts elsewhere, though, and here's a quick list where it looks like he's not getting heat (of course, I'm just skimming), which is at odds with his claim that he's only contributing because "lazy townies have started a 'Lynch-BM Fest'" and in which he seems to be contributing more than his quote "im hardly posting 'content' in other games. Im simply posting responses to what i see," implies.

Mafia 66
Animal Crossing
Clue Mafia
Mafia v Wolves
Consulmaker
Ready Salted
Mafia 61: No Theme

I'm really having a difficult time understanding why anyone would be alright with what BM is doing -- especially now that he's clarified that he thought the deadline was even

closer

than it actually is. The three possible scenarios for excusing it are: 1) he's buddy scum, 2) he's town and you know it because you're scum, 3) um...I can't think of a good third, so you'll have to help me out here.

And, Guardian, you can't have it both ways. Either I "started [my] own" bandwagon or the votes that followed are "not [my] fault directly." A first vote does not a bandwagon make -- and catching someone in a lie is, you know

catching someone in a lie,

which certainly justifies a vote, no?

And amen to Adel's last paragraph.

[MeMe]

rofl. an apology wouldnt go amiss. and yes, that does classify as opportunistic behaviour.

To be fair, I

requested

links to games in which you were getting shit -- you

provided

links for something else. I acknowledged the misunderstanding, but you either misinterpreted

my

post or made a deliberate choice to ignore my request. Should

I

be expecting an apology?

As for this:

but alright, ill bite. when is the deadline Sherlock? i mean, i obviously havent been paying attention, as i thought it was on Saturday. there again, i suppose you cant trust the mod eh? /sarcasm.

Actually, you can trust the mod. He's been giving us the hours to deadline (approximately 84.5 hours away now). For me, the deadline lands at 5 a.m. Sunday morning. For you in England, I think it'd be 11 p.m. Saturday. Since you've said you'd post Friday evening, that's right before the weekend, when participation dips. Just like I said before. Elementary enough for you?

And if this is serious:

My vote stands, and i reccommend others read the latest comments of MeMe, and cast your own vote.

…the irony should shame you. If it's truly only the latest comments of a game that matter, then you have no defense for your lack of contributions as you would've needed no more than five minutes to catch up!

You are silly, sir.

[MeMe]

theopor

- can you confirm which of the two times is correct: the one above or this one? There seems to be an entire day's difference between the two.

[MeMe]

OK then...24 hours less than I thought.

[MeMe]

YL's explanation is that I

wasn't

misrepresenting BM -- that I used his own words.

???

[MeMe]

So we have Yagami, Streeflo, Nanook, Eroto, and Guardian voicing the opinion that BM should be spared (ironically

because

he's been negligent -- but whatever). Since not all of those people can be scum and I'd prefer we go for an

actual

majority rather than just "this player has more votes than anyone else" deadline decision, I'll drop it for now and go back to where I was.

unvote: Battle Mage
vote: Nanosauramo

[MeMe]

Well, I'd certainly be cool with putting my vote back on BM if more people are willing to help out there. Though I thought the pressure yielded interesting results -- more votes wasn't one of those results and time is short.

[MeMe]

@MeMe-can you also do me a favour,

For you, Battle Mage?

Anything

.

[MeMe]

Much appreciation, Jalyn.

[MeMe]

OK -- right now the count is, I believe, Nano with 5 votes and Adel with 4. One of them will almost certainly be lynched today.

I agree with Adel that BM could be setting himself up to play the hammerer and if Jalyn lands on Adel rather than Nano, that could mean she'd be gone.

For that reason, I think I should explain why I'm strongly against the Adel lynch. I think her early question to the mod about whether the mafia were allowed to talk before day began

could

have been a well-thought-out ploy to look pro-town ("See? I don’t know how the mafia works because I’m so innocent! Yay!"), but theopor answered it in the thread in such a way that it appeared, to my eyes, that he was actually trying to make sure she'd understand his answer (which would be unnecessary if she were scum as he'd know she already knew the answer) AND Adel has never pointed back to that question/answer as evidence of her townieness.

Theopor's answer and Adel’s failure to capitalize on her question leads me to believe that it was honest - which makes it unlikely that she’s mafia.

theopor_COD: were roles with PM rights allowed to PM each other before the game started?

I didn't make a point of disallowing it, if thats what you mean.

[MeMe]

Battle Mage --

I was using "hammerer" as synonymous with "person who's waiting until the very last minute to make sure he's the one who decides who dies today" (which should have been clear since, in the scenario I laid out, Adel would only have 6 votes, not the 7 needed for a pre-deadline lynch) but if using insults to pretend we're all stupid and

you're

the only one who's on top of this game makes you feel like a vital member of the thread, that's cool with me -- I can play along:

Wow, BM -- you're right. How'd I miss the fact that it's unlikely that you'd be able to "hammer" in the usual sense of the word in this game? I see now that I was foolish to assume you might be waiting to post and change your vote for any

strategic

reason...what was I thinking? Thanks for your insights -- without them, we'd probably just all lynch ourselves. I can't wait for your post when you're DONE reading! I mean, you've already given us gold...I can't imagine the riches you'll impart when you've actually caught up. I should probably buy a new notebook and put "How to play mafia" on the cover and get ready to fill it with notes on your upcoming post. Again -- thank you, Battle Mage. Thank you.

ah, i thought it was 11AM, thus i only had a couple hours when i got up :p

I find the fact that you logged on in time to post content before the deadline you

thought

was in place and then left without doing so a tad odd. I'd wonder with Eroto why you're stalling...but I'm starting to think the answer is "because I'm getting away with it."

[MeMe]

This setup is mostly closed, however you receive one piece of information. As the limited flavour suggests, there are two factions in this game, the town and the mafia.

So -- no SK, which means the second kill was most certainly a vigilante. As Guardian said (and Nanook implied), I believe it makes more sense that Battle Mage was killed by town rather than the scum. But since "shot" was used for both the night 1 death and Battle Mage's, it rather implies that a gun is the

scum

method of killing.

I actually prefer that Guardian gives his results first. YB seems a bit easier to "trip up" -- not a very careful player. If Guardian's the scum, he's a bit harder to read and I prefer that he be made to commit to a result early.

[MeMe]

Change "Night 1 death" to "Night 0 death" above.

[MeMe]

I know I'm in the minority with my opinion on which "cop" should go first -- but thought I'd put it out there anyway.

And I think it's interesting that you're feeling weird about BM. I think you were a johnny-come-lately to the case against him, waiting until it had pretty much been decided by the majority that he wouldn't be lynched before switching your vote to him. And the thread shows that you did the exact opposite of "defend[ing] the initial attack on BM." Your posts 434, 457, 462, 467, 472, and 494 all contain variations on you

not

liking the initial case against BM.

What am I misunderstanding?

[MeMe]

What makes you think that the fact you were against the initial attack on someone who wound up innocent could "vilify" you?

[MeMe]

Guardian -- you felt under "considerable attack" from me? Could you show me what posts of mine justify that feeling?

[MeMe]

Guardian -- you felt under "horrible attack" from me? Could you show me what posts of mine justify that feeling?

MeMe, I said considerable attack. Please don't put quotes around words if I didn't say them.

~smirk~

Well,

that's

interesting (neither Nanook nor Guardian had posted when I started typing -- no, I'm not a slow typist, I'm just helping my son fill out job applications simultaneously).

I appreciate that you wanted to explain that you missed Nanook outing me but posting "now that is interesting" doesn't really count as a post for me.

Still, so that no one thinks that Guardian was lying -- I apparently edited my post after submission, though I thought I caught my misread in preview (a hazard for admins as there's no warning that it's an edit). I apologize for changing my post, but it was accidental I didn't even realize I'd done so until after I saw Guardian's quote.

I don't really have a problem with your interpretation of me calling you scum there -- but I truly thought that BM's lack of participation and excuses were complete crap (still DO) and was having a hard time understanding why anyone --

not just you

-- was letting him get away with it. You are right, though, that I consider you the most odd out of the defenders. Your vote switch when it no longer mattered is just wild -- especially since you're now suggesting that I should've kept pushing for his lynch while patting yourself on the back for thinking he was innocent when I

was

.

To be clear: I haven't dropped my suspicion of you. The second possibility I put forth in the post you quoted still makes perfect sense to me when applied to you.

[MeMe]

Wonder if Jalyn needs a prod?

[MeMe]

~waves~

Waiting on Jalyn to get in here.

[MeMe]

I'm assuming that little code and link results in something saying "I'm the vig" (I can't figure out how to use it myself -- but Guardian's reaction seems to indicate as much).

Read to the bottom of theopor's second post, Nanook. Unless theopor's screwing with us, we started with 9 town vs. 3 scum.

I don't like how Guardian is advising the "real vig" to remain silent -- if someone counter-claims, we're down to a choice between two and that's a

good

thing. "At this point" town has six left to the scum's three. If we want a shot at not being in lylo for the rest of the game, we damn well better get all the information we can and DEFINITELY TRY TO KEEP THE VIGILANTE ALIVE. If no one counter-claims, then Adel must be innocent. If someone does, we lynch one of them and if we get it wrong lynch the other tomorrow. Duh.

I'm NOT the vigilante.

[MeMe]

CO - theopor specifies BM as shot and Eroto as strangled in the first post.

[MeMe]

Chaos, Jalyn, Nanook -- please say whether or not you claim to be vigilante.

[MeMe]

Not that I haven't already pointed it out, but here --

The Dead -
Theo, Town Mayor, N0 - Bullet to the head.

Nanosauromo- Vanilla Townie, D1 - Lynched

Nekka-Lucifer

Replaced by Battle Mage - Vanilla Townie, N1 - Shot

Erotomachia - Vanilla Townie, N1 - Strangled

[MeMe]

So your theory is that the scum got to kill twice last night?

[MeMe]

How do you interpret this oft-quoted passage from theopor's second post?

This setup is mostly closed, however you receive one piece of information. As the limited flavour suggests, there are two factions in this game, the town and the mafia.

[MeMe]

And, seriously, if we were playing face-to-face, I'd probably be slapping you.

[MeMe]

Here's what we know:

We've got town and mafia -- NO SK.
There were two kills last night.
Adel has claimed responsibility for one of them without counterclaim.

So, either mafia got two kills last night

(and chose to take down BM with one of them, a player who would've likely been pretty easy to lynch today)

OR
Adel's telling the truth

If there's another option, I'm not seeing it.

[MeMe]

OK -- I just PMed the mod about kill methods and, while I'm uneasy about quoting the PM, I'll just say that you can ask him yourself and likely get the same answer I just did (if he doesn't clarify in the thread).

I believe Adel. Those who

don't

seem to be doing nothing more than attempting to discredit a role with a proven ability. Now why would a pro-town role want to do that? Hmmmm......

Since Adel's the vigilante, that means YogurtBandit's the real cop -- which clears me -- and Guardian's either scum or useless as a cop. I found his breadcrumbing to be just as likely the actions of mafia attempting to set-up a counterclaim as the actions of someone who got "cop" as his role and his play yesterday and today convince me he's the correct lynch. I'm really not too excited about the backlash this is likely to generate, but those who are town will certainly see the logic here.

vote: Guardian

[MeMe]

I almost feel

sorry

for scum right now.

[MeMe]

I almost feel

sorry

for us if the town is going to take your word as gospel here, because I am town.

Um…lucky for us no one took your case against Adel as gospel, eh?

I think Guardian's our best bet for scum at the moment. I've believed he had a good chance of being scum ever since I saw the breadcrumbing and it only got stronger when he got counter-claimed by YogurtBandit -- but I'm not brave enough to lead a charge against a claimed cop before investigation results occur...so I shut up, watched, and listened.

Like I said in my last post (and Nanook actually mentioned way back in post 62 and YagamiLight reiterated in 83), hiding your role name in posts can just as easily be the ploy of scum setting up a later counter-claim as the hints of an actual power role wanting to point back. For him to now say it's "silly" to even think scum would breadcrumb alone is, well, silly. If he's putting forth the theory that it would be some kind of proof as

town

, he can't be so dense not to consider that it might help him as

scum

.

I've watched him bluster and wishy-washy his way through the game -- alternately praising and reprimanding players...deferring to me at times while making sure to continually plant the idea that I could be scum based on hunches and feelings at other times. He said that YB might actually be a second cop, BM should be excused -- NO -- lynched (his "However, I see a good third alternative and I think it's just possible that we'll get enough votes on him before deadline" line made me laugh out loud), while continually riding Adel despite the fact that I'd pegged her as town ever since she asked the question about night-talking roles. This guy has an

agenda

and his ideas are so different than mine, I'm having a hard time believing that it's the same as my pro-town goal. He rejects good posts with a dismissive wave, while making sure to pat us on the head for our efforts.

Today, he actually went so far as to suggest that no one counter-claim Adel -- he backed off it pretty quickly when I exposed that as ludicrous. But he was still working pretty hard at ways to make her look scummy before I put a stop to

that

as well by asking the mod point-blank about kill methods. I can't help but think the paragraph preceding the bolded red line is

fresh

rather than something he was actually going to ask with his pbpa...but no way to prove that. I can, however, point out that it doesn't mesh at all with his "shot most definitely seems to be a mafia kill, and strangled a vig kill" statement. If he considered the kill methods weren't static, he could have certainly said so THEN rather than declaring that Adel "must be lying about something - I thought this independently when I read the first post."

And now, despite the fact that I went out of my way to save Adel (definitely the vigilante) -- two days in a row -- and that I'm responsible for taking away the confusion over the kill methods, he's still trying to keep the "MeMe could be scum" crap alive.

I think Guardian's likely to be scum -- but we've got three of them to find. Basically, if there's a decent case for someone else, I'm willing to go there instead. Until I see it, though, I'll stick.

[MeMe]

Like I said, show me a compelling case on someone else and I'll consider switching.

[MeMe]

I"m with guardiab on this one, CO seems to be using it as a tactic, where as Nanook, thats just how he is.

Guardian (and Adel) were talking about Nanosauramo, not Nanook.

[MeMe]

We

do

? Can you clue me in?

I'm a little in awe of Guardian's ability to stay alive, his main argument for which is that he'll have another investigation result tomorrow after having already delivered a bad one today. He's either paranoid or a liar...and my money's on the latter (because I know YB's investigation was accurate and Guardian's was not, I've ruled the "reverse" possibility to be unlikely).

Bravo, Guardian. You've fooled both the vigilante you said investigated as scum AND the real cop you outed. Just

wow

.

My money's on YagamiLight & Guardian as scum with the third up in the air -- but I'm really hoping I'll die tonight as I don't think I can handle much more of this inanity.

[MeMe]

Count right now is 4 to 4 with Yagami the hold-out.

[MeMe]

Unbelievable.

[MeMe]

YB -- are you

serious

?

[MeMe]

Write up coming in five.

We've passed five minutes

and

five hours -- I'm really hoping he didn't mean five

days

here.

[MeMe]

We know there's a vigilante.

EVERYONE checked in and said that they weren't the vigilante.

Therefore, Adel's the vigilante.

What the

hell

, YB?

[MeMe]

He is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "near confirmed."

[MeMe]

Dang.

[MeMe]

Scum definitely earned the win.

I echo Eroto's confusion over YB's lynch...though he was disturbingly nutty, he was obviously the cop. Of course, when you're in the thick of it,

nothing's

ever completely obvious.

[MeMe]

last post