Mini 455 - Mafia in Theoville - Game Over who won?

[DogMom]

Adel, is your reason for voting me that I use smiley faces? Is it my page one vote? Are you just following MeMe? Please do tell.

It had more to do with other players dropping your name into a sentence containing the word "logic."

Logic=Scum. [/joke]

Seriously, I think I picked up on a scumtell, and I'm waiting for a repeat or three before I present it to everyone else.

Dogmom hasn't posted yet. Odd. She is usually good for a few hundred words a day. If I didn't have my vote tied up in something that may (slight but non-zero chance) prove significant, I would put a vote on her to encourage her to leave the lurk.

Sorry, RL caught up to me and whacked me in the back of the head with a busyboard yesterday.
Like to hear your scumtell / reasoning, by the way, IME voting someone for "good reasons" but not articulating them is rather suspicious.

And since voting is Teh Kool in RandomStage:

Vote:Adel

for the non-expressed Good Reasons.

[DogMom]

Hey everyone, sorry again, I was going to vote at the start somewhere but I had to close off quickly...
Anyway, I would like to bring this up...

What's with the attack there Adel? First off just let me state that I don't care if you're a newbie or not .. It's not an excuse for ever being scummy as you put it. My vote was more out of confusion then it was tactful, and why do claim being scummy?

...

I made a mistake by exposing the cop, but honestly it's not something that I would do as scum, but instead keep to myself until the night hit. Maybe you should blame Guardian for outing himself, I just happened to catch on to it is all.

If you took offense to my "Rusty?" comment, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insult you, it was just a rhetorical flourish.

Seeing you do what I was doing made me realize how scummy it was. Realizing that I was engaging in an activity that was anti-town I posted my

mea culpa

.

I wasn't blaming you for outing Guardian, I was considering the possibility that you are scum with Guardian and outing him is part of a brilliant ploy to remove both of you from consideration as scum. If this is the case then he gets to role-claim without us wondering why he role-claimed, and after he investigates he gets to clear a scum partner.

You did nothing to address this accusation. Hey, it may only be a wild conjecture, but the way in which you used "If I were Mafia" as a counter-factual strikes me as being scummy.

Could someone more experienced analyse my hypothesis? I can't wrap my head around what the odds of if being true are.

If he was mafia, he wouldn't agree (Guardian) because if he dies, he loses... Is that an honest sacrifice he wishes to make... Also, if something comes up on his NK (If there is one) then I have a suspicion...

Nekka, can you clarify what you're saying here? I'm getting that Guardian wouldn't agree with Nanook to set up the "cop" scenario if both of them were mafia because...um...if who dies what happens?

And may I ask what kind of suspicion you would have if there's a Night Kill? Honestly the only way I can understand your post here is to assume you meant

SerialKiller

instead of "mafia".

Maybe it's just because it's early on Monday Morning. I dunno.

[DogMom]

Gack. Forgot the rest.

Unvote: Adel

FoS: Nanook & Guardian

Not real sure what to make of all that yet.

[DogMom]

OK, I think I got it. Yeah, I see where you're coming from now - that cop-claim-and-outing makes NO sense if they're both scum due to the lynch-factor. It also makes no sense to me because, while that sort of "breadcrumbing" is done, it's usually done as Guardian says - to support one's claim AFTER one has actually MADE a claim. Otherwise he's just opening himself up for the possibility of a NK.

I really dunno what to make of it all. I didn't see any of the "Cop breadcrumbs" at all, to be honest. I guess I just don't work that way. (Even though I've

left

breadcrumbs that way before...I just didn't think of looking for them here, and certainly not so early).

<Reread of Post #1>
Hey, YogurtBandit's right - there's indication of 3 scum in the opening post. And hopefully since Theo said that there's "3 looking sheepish" that means NO SK. There's something, anyway.

[DogMom]

So, Nanook, exactly

why

did you "out" Guardian, anyway?

[DogMom]

Re: Guardian / Nanook: OK, I see why Nanook outed Guardian...sorta. I personally would've been more inclined to hope that nobody else saw it, especially since some of 'em were quite subtle.

Un-FoS both of 'em. I can't see Nanook-Scum outing the cop and drawing doc protection to him, and I really can't see Guardian-scum posting hints right from the gitgo.
However, now I'm irritated at both of them: Nanook for outing our possible-cop, (no, he's not confirmed and I won't 100% believe him until he is) and Guardian for essentially saying "hey, everybody, NANOOK IS TOWN! HEY SCUM! GOT A BIG OL' NK TARGET FOR YA! NO NEED TO THANK ME!"
So at both of you.

(And, on preview, I see I'm saying the same thing MeMe just did. Heh.)

Looking at YB's posts...Wow. 21 posts, and not much content. (Hellooooooo pot, I'm kettle, nicetameetcha. Workin' on it.) Also, FTR, I am not at all fond of "hey, I've missed a page or 2, somebody tell me what's going on". While I do understand the temptation (I mean, come on, y'all are seriously posty - I had 2 pages to catch up on since 5pm yesterday), reading the thread for yourownself and making your OWN conclusions is a much better idea.

Re: MeMe. She doesn't have that many posts, and many of them are metagaming, but...still. When she does post "contentful" posts, they are actually QUITE contenty. Would've preferred some more explanation re: her vote on YB, to be honest. Her "case" seems a bit thin.
Voting someone for saying "voting without explanation is a scumtell"?
However, since YB has rather been avoiding her request (expressed twice now, AFAICT) to actually PROVIDE EXAMPLES of that, it's looking like she has a good point!

Hm. YagamiLight is an interesting one. He says a lot...but most of it is essentially "everyone's equally scummy" or "He could be scum, he could be town". Or it's speculation on the game-setup. Not sure what to make of YL. In the spirit of YL's posts: He could be scum trying to post enough to make it look like he's not lurking, but not really posting any game-analysis, so as to not drop any scumtells. On the other paw, he could be town.

ChaosOmega: not posted a lot, but he has posted game-analysis yesterday. Would like to hear more from him. Ditto Nanosauromo.

Adel: been over that, I think - saying "you're suspicious but I'm not saying why" is rather a scumtell in my opinion. Saying "it's nothing

now

but it might be later so I won't tell you because then you won't do it" is rather formulating an opinion and waiting for someone to walk into it. I don't like it. Especially with this line re: Nanook's vote on Guardian:

But it really bothers me that he is voting for you for no good given reason, and my non-explained vote gives him cover for it. He is doing exactly the same thing I did, but when he does it it seems like a scummy b.s. move to me.

Heh.
Anyway, glad to see you gave it up.

N-L: No idea. Mainly because I am really having a problem reading & understanding his posts. Sorry, N-L.

Streeflo: Says he couldn't possibly have any suspicions on Day 1. Huh? I would

hope

he'd manage to form suspicions by the end of Day 1. Did you mean "so

early

on Day 1" or "on Page 1" or did you honestly mean you can't have suspicions throughout all of Day 1? He doesn't like the Nanook thing either, obviously.

Gargh. I'm having a real problem getting a handle on this game at all.
I don't like YogurtBandit's asking for someone else to tell him what's going on, nor do I like him avoiding MeMe's question. I'm also rather suspicious of YagamiLight; his posts could be indicating a scum who's trying to insinuate suspicion at several people without being too offensive. See above. Subject to change, void where prohibited, mileage may vary.

[DogMom]

An interesting thing that I note is that DogMom also chastised me about this, and then said that she couldn't see Nanook-scum or Guardian-scum .

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I

meant

that I couldn't see you two as scumbuddies, doing this as a concerted / coordinated effort.

Jury's still out on which one of you I think is scummier. I'm thinking Nanook, but only because I'm inclined to believe your claim...

FOR NOW

.
But YB has a lot of 'splainin to do, so I'm going to set aside the "Guardian / Nanook" thing for now.

[DogMom]

@ Adel: B.

Nah, I just don't believe it. Nanook+Guardian just doesn't work for me. There are just so many ways that scum can fly under the radar and be far more subtle about guiding lynches, etc. I've seen it in other games here, and in other games off-site.
I knew about breadcrumbing long before I signed up for this site, and I even used it to breadcrumb "doc" in my first game. Same kind of breadcrumbing, actually.
I think that Guardian genuinely breadcrumbed he was the cop, and that Nanook outed him without thinking of all the possible consequences. That's it. I don't think they're scumbuddies who planned this out ahead of time.

[DogMom]

An interesting thing that I note is that DogMom also chastised me about this, and then said that she couldn't see Nanook-scum or Guardian-scum .

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I

meant

that I couldn't see you two as scumbuddies, doing this as a concerted / coordinated effort.

Jury's still out on which one of you I think is scummier. I'm thinking Nanook, but only because I'm inclined to believe your claim...

FOR NOW

.
But YB has a lot of 'splainin to do, so I'm going to set aside the "Guardian / Nanook" thing for now.

So you believe that either Guardian or I are scum? Do you think it be possible that we're both town?

Oh, absolutely. I think that there's a possibility that neither of you are scum, or that one of you is. I think the posssibility of

both

of you being scum is remote.
I'm not really getting "scum vibes" from either of you, to be honest. "Oops vibes", maybe, but not scumvibes.
Getting a lot more from YogurtBandit right now, frankly.

[DogMom]

I still dont think Guardian is Cop. He must be scum. He's claiming cop so early and he gets away with it and now the Doc is protecting him?(Assuming there is one) Its seems like a way to keep the doc from protecting town. If the doc protects the scum, All Guardian needs to know is who the doc is, then the doc gets Nk'ed, Then the real Cop the next night!! If we lynch town two in a row, and two nks in a row, its oh... 5 to 3. At Day 3 it could be a LyLo Sitiuation If we Lynch the real Cop today, I can tell you Guardian is Scum. Im willing to die/be lynched to prove Guardian is not the Cop. You all are probably going to think Im kidding, but Im not. Nanook claims cop for Guardian, Then Guardian is suddenly cop with full doc protection. I feel bad for the doc right now, because they will be gone by the time the Second Twilight comes around. And its all because Guardian is going to lead you all off course.

Unvote , Vote: Guardian

Y'know...this looks a reaaaaally whole lot like a Cop claim.
YogurtBandit, if you were intending to subtly hint that you're the only cop in the game, it didn't work. Just sayin.

On the other paw, if you're not claiming here, what exactly ARE you saying other than "I don't believe Guardian"? Why do you not believe him?

[DogMom]

First of all each player is an individual, and makes the own choices. As a group we can tell each power role what to do all we want, and they'll still make their own decision.

Annnnd then we'd lynch them as soon as we figured out who they were for not "following orders". (It happens. I've seen it happen, more often than not.) Not seeing how that would be beneficial to them.

And your logic for how the mafia would react to the group putting their minds together to assist the (possible) vig in making a good decision strikes me as a scummy response: using crap logic to dismiss a pro:town plan.

But directing protown roles is

not

a protown plan. Directing a Vig has good points and bad ones. I personally don't believe it's protown. I've seen it work

for

town and

against

town in games.
It's rarely resulted in a vig of a scum, interestingly. It lets the scum know who's being targeted, so they can shift THEIR NK to a different person, if the Vig-order is for a Townie.
Directing any OTHER protown role is inherently BAD, and not protown at ALL.
What are the benefits you're seeing that will override the problems? The only "benefit" I've ever seen is that it makes the Vig-kill a more "open" one, with more dialog and accountability. But you've said above that they should be able to pick who they'll Vig, regardless of what the town says, so how does that make them accountable? Plus, if we don't know WHO the Vig is, it removes accountability until we DO get a reveal on them.

The mafia, in trying to predict the actions of the autonomous individuals playing our power roles will always run into a recursive logic error (WIFOM) so they will never be able to confidently predict who a P.R. will target.

Exactly, which is why TELLING THEM AHEAD OF TIME WHO THE P.R. IS TARGETING is a

bad idea!

I don't get this - you're arguing both sides here and trying to use the REASON it's a bad idea as a reason in favor of your idea.

Once again, though the logical fallacy of over-simplification, you are overstating your case. That you didn't mention the possibility of there being a mafia roleblocker, the biggest hole in my plan, suggests that:

??? I don't think I've ever seen a RB in a 3-scum game. Never even thought that'd be a possibility, to be honest.
The fact that you've been touting this "let's direct the Power Roles Night Actions" scheme so hard, followed so RAPIDLY by "and here's why none of our direction will mean a thing" (saying "we can direct them but they can choose not to" and bringing up the possibility of a roleblocker) is really...odd. I'm wondering, now, if you're trying to set the stage for a scum RoleClaim, and setting up the perfect "out" for them.
"Oh, I'm the doc, and I

tried

to protect NK1 but I must've been blocked."
"Hey, I'm the Vig, I know y'all voted for me to Vig Scum1 but I thought Townie3 looked scummier".

[DogMom]

Looks like I was the only player DogMom did not mention in her player-by-player analysis!

I'm not really sure who to vote for anymore. Adel and Guardian are going constantly back and forth...I think it may even be likely that they're both town and that the true mafia members are just lying low.

Sorry...thought I got everybody. That's what I get for not going in alpha. order.

Random vote for ChaosOmega. Says Nanook & Guardian can't both be scum and is inclined to trust Guardian at the moment.
Votes YB, would like to hear more from CO.
Not very familiar with Breadcrumbing.
Unvotes YB upon seeing YB's claim, and says it may be possible there are 2 cops of varying sanities.

Huh. You've only made ten posts, and most of 'em are one-liners. You haven't said much...

[DogMom]

DogMom, you haven't posted, so maybe you would have already as soon as you get back, but I would definitely like you to answer Nanook's question, and not let it get lost in the clutter.

Addressing this, since it's come up twice.

I don't have internet access in the evenings during the weekdays, so I won't be doing any posts after about 5pm each day. I did address it when I came across it this morning.

[DogMom]

A mafia roleblocker would definitely hamper us directing the actions of the potential doc and cops, but how would a mafia roleblocker block a potential vig whose theoretical identity is unknown?

Think this through a little more.

OK, I didn't ask the original question, but I've thought it through and I still don't get it. I'd like Adel to answer: How is a mafia roleblocker going to block a vig if he doesn't know who to target?

[DogMom]

And I *think* Yagami might have his list reversed -- but I could've just misunderstood everything he said in his post.

I was thinking the same thing; however, in that case I'd like to know why I'm so scummy, since that'd put me on top of his Scumlist. He's not mentioned me at ALL, except to say that he'd like me to answer Nanook's question.
Pretty weak to make me the top of his scumlist.

Either way:

FoS Yagami

. Please clear up the confusion.

[DogMom]

DogMom, you had some good content in your last posts, but I was going to post this yesterday, because I really do think you implied that either Nanook or I must be scum, and I think that may have been a slip/badlogic on your part.

I know the game has moved on a lot from this point... But I really read your post like Nanook did and thought that it implied an either or choice. I would like you to address this further.

To clarify.
Again: I had not intended to imply anything of the sort.

Here was my entire thought process. Unfortunately I obviously didn't make it as clear to you as it was to me.

1) BOTH of you could not be scum doing this in a coordinated effort. If you were, it was stupid.
2) Therefore,

if

there was scum there,

then

it was only going to be ONE of you.
3) The terms I used, "Guardian-scum / Nanook-scum", were conventions I have seen used on this site before, to present hypotheticals of "If this person were scum..." These were used to support the "I don't think they'd be working together" as opposed to the "one of them must be scum" part.

Upon reread, I can see how you would've thought it implied that

one

of you were scum. I guess I should've included the IF-THEN statement, and reordered my post a bit.

An interesting thing that I note is that DogMom also chastised me about this, and then said that she couldn't see Nanook-scum or Guardian-scum .

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I

meant

wish that I had said

that I couldn't see you two as scumbuddies

because saying that you both are definitely town is the opposite of the point that I want to be arguing for

, doing this as a concerted / coordinated effort.

I had, in fact,

stated that I couldn't see you as scumbuddies

in a prior post. And the fact that I outright STATED, in a post prior to this one of yours, before you had the chance to try to stick me in the "you're both town is the exact opposite of what I want to say" box, and hence could not have been setting it up as a defense is somehow negated by your pretty red text? Did you miss it?
I'm not backtracking and trying to make out that I said something that I didn't. I'm reiterating points I already made. Linkies provided to be all helpful and stuff.

Jury's still out on which one of you I think is scummier

(note how I am setting up an either or choice here!)

.

Yes, just like...oooo...everybody else? I wasn't getting a good scumread on either one of you. So, just like YagamiLight, who put ChaosOmega, Nanosauromo, and Nekka-Lucifer on the same "line" in his scumlist, I've pretty much said here that neither of you are really coming across any scummier than the other.
Would it have made you happier if I'd have made a pretty little scumlist for you? Not going to - I happen to think those help scum more than they do town.

I'm thinking Nanook, but only because

I'm inclined to believe your claim...

FOR NOW

because saying we should lynch the claimed cop first is overkill and would look scummy as hell

.

Or, say, because I think lynching a claimed cop is

stupid

and

anti-town

and

scummy as hell

. Not just "looks" all of those things: "IS" all of those things.

Isn't it great how I am setting you up as great day 2 and 3 lynches, on the basis that ONE of you MUST be scum?

*snort*
Thanks for giving me so much credit as to be able to steer the town any way I want it to go. No, really. How in the heck am I setting anyone up for a lynch here? I'm expressing my suspicions and thoughts about the game.

But YB has a lot of 'splainin to do, so I'm going to set aside the "Guardian / Nanook" thing for now

because I need to think about it a bit before I come up with some more convincing logic to lynch them

.

(the strikethrough and red text obviously mine, not DogMom's).

More accurately, because

right now

I think it's two townies that both did something that wasn't the best idea, and going after either one of them would not be beneficial to town.

DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - you strongly implied that one of us must be scum in your post.

Yeah, which is why I said

in a prior post

that I thought you two couldn't be working together, and then in the post you're focusing on, I Un-FoSed the both of you. Why bother, if I want to "keep the heat on"? If I'm setting one or the other of you up for a lynch, or saying you're scummy, how exactly does Un-FoSing you both accomplish this?
Look. At this point, I do think you're town. Both of you. I also think you've both done some stupid and scummy things. Those stupid and scummy things are currently overshadowed by the townie-ness of most of your content. However, I'm not going to say
"DogMom Seal Of TownieNess, I Say That these guys are 100% Town For The Rest Of The Game". No townie can say "I believe, 100%, that these guys are town and that won't ever change."

How does that even make sense!? I think the red text I inserted above

points out my argument

puts words that DogMom didn't say and never intended into her mouth

better than my articulating it on my own ever could... YB, Adel, and DogMom all "have a lot of 'splainin to do".

Color change on that last one courtesy me. Since you like Strikethroughs and Red Text and all.

And oh, by the way, I'll concede that you merely posted what you

thought

I was saying, but hey, not what I said. I do apologize for being obviously less-than-clear about my suspicions and where my thoughts were going. I thought I was obvious as the sun, but apparently I was only as obvious as the sun during the New Moon on a completely Overcast Night.

Taking what I actually said and twisting it all around like taffy until it says what

you

want it to say: scummy.

[DogMom]

The most active players are Adel, Guardian, YB, Nanook, Dogmom and Streeflo. Between 1 and 3 of the scum must be among the remaining players.

Just because not posting could be a sign of scum doesn't mean that any of the people not posting have to be scum. Your theories are getting more and more suspicious.

I agree here that "not posting=/=scum"; however, "not posting

DOES equal

anti-town". The only

sure

weapon town has is the lynch. We can't vote carefully and well without posts from everyone, to analyze, take apart, and look for patterns. Some of those patterns may be erroneous, some may not. However, it's necessary for

everyone

to participate, because if someone isn't participating in the game, we just can't tell whether they're scum or town.

[DogMom]

DogMom why must exactly one of us be scum? - you

strongly implied

correctly guessed

that one of us must be scum in your post. How

does that even make sense!?

did you know!?!

Sucks, doesn't it. I do not think that technique will help us find scum. Even if you are correct, the technique is so crappy that I will never buy it. Not scummy, crappy. As in "sharing the primary attributes of fecal matter."

Man, I sure do wish I really had all this great power and knowledge everyone keeps

attributing to me.

The game would be so much easier.

[DogMom]

And aren't you voting Guardian? How does that make sense in light of your newest proposal?

Oh, yeah. I was holding a grudge, and expecting to be 0-for-3 with this crowd.

unvote

Fos: ChaosOmega, Nekka-Lucifer, Nanosauromo, Erotomachia, MeMe, YagamiLight

for being behind the curve in posting content, pretty much in that order. YagamiLight gets another special notice for being almost perfectly non-scummy, which I am beginning to think is a scum tell.

Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum.

*snert*
I'm assuming you're talking tongue-in-cheek.

The Too Townie Logical Fallacy. I've never been happy with that argument anyway. How can one be "too town to be town"? That's like saying (as the WikiEntry points out) that someone's being "too scummy to be scum".

[DogMom]

The last sentence is an Oxymoron.

Or it is a

contradictio in adjecto

(contradiction in terms or in definition) to be a little more precise, which is an err in logic and therefore false in the western tradition, but it is also a doorway to truth in the eastern tradition.

Can you be a little more explicit with this? Sorry, Western Tradition Brane here, and from where I sit

Voting Guardian because you believe you had zero scum on your high-content list

and

Putting Guardian on that list, hence he's not scum

Don't compute with me. Or did I misread your "I thought I had zero-for-three" comment? If I misread that, then I guess I need

that

explained better, because my Western Tradition Brane doesn't get THAT part.

[DogMom]

And hey, everybody, computer access going away for the night, so please don't expect me to be answering any more posts / questions / whatever directed at me for the next...mmmm....14 hours or so.

[DogMom]

Not at all. I think it is worth considering, and putting on the record for the days to come, that his posts are careful, precise, and absolutely do not stand out. That wiki page is crap, a strawman argument, is the expected behavior of scum is to act perfectly average than he is meeting that criterion. I'm not voting for him, and I'm not suggesting that anyone else do either, I am just wary of perfect play. He says that he can stand out when he chooses to, and I want him to choose to. By posting some content. By going out on a limb and generating the best argument he can for why a particular person is guilty. Staying hidden in the middle of the herd is not helping town. Taking risks would.

Ah, OK, I see where you're getting at now with the "too townie" comment. Sorry about that. Hm. I'll have to go back over his posts and see what I can see, I think.

[DogMom]

Can you be a little more explicit with this? Sorry, Western Tradition Brane here, and from where I sit

Voting Guardian because you believe you had zero scum on your high-content list

and

Putting Guardian on that list, hence he's not scum

Don't compute with me. Or did I misread your "I thought I had zero-for-three" comment? If I misread that, then I guess I need

that

explained better, because my Western Tradition Brane doesn't get THAT part.

I didn't immediately act on my new Superduper theory, because of the cool reception each of my previous theories got. My vote had been on Guardian for a while, and I didn't feel like changing it right away. -5 to lynch is not an emergency. I thought the "Oxymoron" statement was referring to how I made a special note at the end regarding YagLite acting. That was the only part that bore an eastern influence.


I never said that I have zero scum on my active list. I said that I expect between 1 and 3 scum to be on the inactive list. The assumption is that it is possible that there are no scum on my active list while it is nearly impossible that there are no scum on the inactive list.

Voting Guardian because you believe you had zero scum on your high-content list

and

Putting Guardian on that list, hence he's not scum

How did you get that out of my post?

Fos:

Dog_mom for being much more dense that I know her to be.

I didn't understand the 0-for-3 comment in the context it was presented. The high-content list was under discussion, and you said that it was likely that anywhere from 1 to 3 scum were in the "lurker" group (i.e. - the ones NOT on the high-content list) then it was followed up by the 0-for-3 comment. I

thought

that meant you decided you were 0-for-3 on finding scum in your list. I associated the numbers in 0-for-3 with the numbers in 1-to-3; I didn't realize you were addressing an entirely different section of the post.

[DogMom]

An interesting thing that I note is that DogMom also chastised me about this, and then said that she couldn't see Nanook-scum or Guardian-scum .

Sorry - I wasn't clear. I

meant

that I couldn't see you two as scumbuddies, doing this as a concerted / coordinated effort.

Jury's still out on which one of you I think is scummier. I'm thinking Nanook, but only because I'm inclined to believe your claim...

FOR NOW

.
But YB has a lot of 'splainin to do, so I'm going to set aside the "Guardian / Nanook" thing for now.

I will try and say this as concisely as possible. DogMom, I find you as really scummy for this post. Though you denied it later, you strongly implied in this post that one of either Nanook or I must be scum. You set it up as an either or choice, and said you weren't sure which was scummier - either I, the at that time only claimed cop, or Nanook, who outed the at that time only claimed cop... The way you phrased it makes it seem to me like you were trying to paint a target on both our backs even though it at the time seemed obvious to me that we both were town.

Official

FOS: DogMom

for this.

OK, well, I can't

make

you believe anything you don't want to. I know what I meant, and I've said what I meant, and obviously that's not going to change your mind. I don't know what else to say to this.

I meant that I figured at most only one of you could be scummy, and I didn't know which one it was. <shrug> And, to be honest, this game is all about finding scum - I think we all pretty much came in suspecting that

anyone

could be scum. We look for scummy behavior - you've obviously found some you think worth keeping an eye on.
And, what seems obvious to you may not always be obvious to everyone else. Case in point: I thought I was being clear with my post, and obviously I wasn't.

[DogMom]

This sort of makes me think that Nekka-Lucifer is just a bored townie, not scum. Or is wrong to draw conclusions from players asking for replacements?

Probably. I've seen the "oh, replacements are usually bored town" argument before, and I just can't buy it. I've seen both scum and town ask for replacements. I can sympathize with him, too - it's tough to keep up with this game if you don't have 24/7 access.

[DogMom]

ENTIRELY OFF-TOPIC:

SNEEZESNEEZESNEEZE

Gah. Sorry for adding to the noise instead of signal in here. Posting to say don't expect anything coherent from me for the rest of the day. All my allergies just attacked me at once and right now I feel like my head has been packed with special StupidCotton. Hoping to post something not quite so much filled with teh stupid tomorrow.

</EO-T>

[DogMom]

OK, well, after a good nights' sleep, and liberal application of decongestants, I'm back, rereading the whole thread and looking to see who's had scummy behavior!

First person I noticed...

Me.

Gadzooks, my posts are reading like the Poster Child for "ALWAYS Pack Your Brain Wherever You Go". Misunderstanding perfectly obvious points, juxtaposing stuff that doesn't even go together, posting stuff that says something entirely DIFFERENT from what I was thinking when I posted it...geez. I'm not offering any excuses, but I do have a reason: the aforementioned allergies. I've been playing like a brain-dead artichoke. No wonder everybody and their keyboard has a FOS on me. Sorry guys.

Next up: Nanosauromo: Dude, you gonna post anything? We're 13 pages into the thread, and you've posted

eight times

. I understand not wanting to add to the noise ratio in here, but really.
Your eight posts consist of a random vote for Nanook, saying you're happy with your vote because you found his vote change to agree with Guardian to be "scummy", saying Streeflo wasn't acting scummy, saying you found Nanook to be the scummiest player "so far", calling Nanook out on his "Cop Roleclaim" post, answering Adel's poll (and saying your vote's still on Nanook), calling Adel out on her statement to YagamiLight, and saying she's rushing the day.
In your second-to-last post, you say

Sorry about not posting often. I check the thread constantly, but most of the time have nothing significant to contribute.

Really? Nothing to contribute? Nothing whatsoever? How about an opinion about

anyone

in the thread - especially anyone except Nanook, since we've established you say he's scummy.

Adel's said some

weird

things, but then again I've gamed with her before and she can be...um...yeah, weird. And kinda pushy. So those don't

necessarily

count against her as scumtells for me, because I know she does them, even as town.
Not real happy with the "I've got reasons and I'm not gonna tell you, neener neener neener", though. I understand, yes, so far they've been harmless, but...well...
Not seeing any seriously scummy stuff from her. Some that others have noticed and commented on, but I regarded those as "moderately", not seriously scummy. And for now I think she's explained them well enough, so I'll just keep them in the "for future consideration if necessary" file.
Erotomachia hasn't really posted a whole bunch, but then again his signal:noise ratio is pretty high, IMO. When he has posted it's mostly been to actually give opinions on the game, other people, etc.

Hmm...DogMom's reply to Guardian seems like a bit of an overreaction to me. But perhaps it's her posting style.

Um. Yeah, it is sorta my style, but it also was a bit of an overreaction. I'm claiming Allergies and StupidBrain for that one.
He also expressed the thought that sometimes there is a need for mediocrity. I found this to be an interesting thought. I, too, think it's likely that most (if not all) of the prolific posters are town, which gives scum the perfect cover to lie low. If

everyone

is talking so much, it allows scum to say, "hey, got nothing really to add, that's why I'm not saying anything."
And...hey, looky. That's just what Nano's doing.
I really don't like that he's checking the thread,

constantly,

according to him, and yet has nothing to say.

Vote: Nanosauromo

[DogMom]

More stuff:
Guardian: You've done some stuff that I was thinking was scummy, but once you were outed as breadcrumbing "cop", a lot of it made sense. Much of it could easily be construed as "power role trying to hide it & trying to get some good investigation targets at the same time". Plus, a lot of it was going after Adel's posts that I didn't really see as scummy (because, as I said before, I've played with her before and I knew she just sorta plays like that), but now in retrospect I can see why you were going after her. I also don't like that you were trying really hard to put words in my mouth, but I can see where you got that interpretation of my posts, and Adel's already addressed how well the whole "what they REALLY meant" works, so that, too, is getting filed in the "for future consideration if necessary" bin.

Nanook: Yeah, well, I think I've discussed you enough, even with AllergyBrane. I still think you're town, don't like the outing, but hey, what's done is done, let's move on.

FTR: I'm inclined to think Guardian's roleclaim is accurate, because he didn't come out and just

say

Hey, I'm the cop, and that Nanook really is a townie who made a mistake. Everyone makes 'em...I oughta know.

MeMe: Good gameplay, very high signal-to-noise ratio. Isn't prone to making long wordy posts (like some people I could mention... ) but still gets her points across. Honestly, she's coming across VERY town to me.

Nekka-Lucifer / BattleMage: I honestly have no idea. I really couldn't get that much of a read on N-L, because I couldn't really read his posts. BattleMage...well, he hasn't really said much either. Also could be scum trying to lie low, though, so until he posts more I'll hold off doing even a FoS on him.

IGMEOY

, though.

Streeflo pretty much went after Nanook (after the random stage) for the cop-reveal. Is neutral on Guardian's roleclaim, says he'll be more confident after tomorrow's investigation results.
Some discussion about roleclaims, and decides that Nanook could be town. Doesn't see a case against YogurtBandit, requests a restating of peoples' case against him BEFORE his roleclaim. Doesn't like the statement of Adel's to YagamiLight of "act scummy or I'll think you're scum". Getting pretty townie vibes from him, but the ongoing suspicion of our claimed cops isn't sitting quite right with me. I don't know why, though, so I'll chalk it up to "AllergyBrane" at this point, but keep it in mind.

YagamiLight: Hm. Said Nanook was probably town right after the cop-reveal, because Nanook as scum would've kept it to himself and just NKed the cop if he were scum. Says we can't say he's scummy just from this. Hm. Could be scum with Nanook, though, and defending his scumbuddy. But, I've already said I think Nanook is town, for largely the same reasons, so I'm inclined to think YL is thinking the same way.
Says vig should be able to tell from posts who the town thinks vig should go after at night. Thinks Adel is very town for putting out these suggestions and making people think. Interesting.
Posted a scumlist...and says that the cop-reveal could have been done deliberately to make Nanook seem less scummy BECAUSE scum could've just PMed his scumbuddies and they could've NKed the cop. It's true, they could have. I'm not fond of the ever-recursive WIFOM arguments, because they really don't resolve. I think he dismisses it, though.
FoSes MeMe...and is going to go back and look over the whole thread again.

[DogMom]

YogurtBandit gets his own post because I wanted to hit SUBMIT before my DSL got taken out by weather.

YB: random voting, followed by several posts of fluff. "Doesn't like to take chances" and doesn't like random voting, so he votes ChaosOmega for...um...voting for Nekka-Lucifer after YB did, which could've been the start of a bandwagon. O....kay....

Says voting without saying anything is a scumtell, so he voted CO for voting N-L without saying anything.
Pops in to ask for a summary of the game. I don't like that, to tell you the truth. I like it when people read the game and draw their

own

conclusions. Honestly, if you're TOWN, how do you know who you can trust to give you a good, balanced,

reasonable

summary of the game? On the other paw, if you're scum, you know who you can trust to give you a summary that should help YOUR side.
Gives us every possible permutation of townie-distribution.

Next up is his very soft cop-claim, saying that he absolutely does NOT believe Guardian is the cop, and votes Guardian.
Later on he says he didn't want to claim with that post, but he guesses he did. (Yeah, even

I

, ArtichokeHead AllergyBrain, saw the cop-claim in that post.) Doesn't know his sanity, and posts quite a bit of game theory about cops, investigations, etc.
Says he's not going to investigate Guardian, even though he finds him scummy. He's believing that Guardian's behavior is cop but that Guardian might not be. Huh. Interesting.
Doesn't know his sanity, would like to see "answers to questions". Would like ChaosOmega to do a PBPA, would like to know what CO thinks are "fluff" posts.
Says CO has one post that's useful, after CO posts his list of "YB fluff"

I dunno. He's posted a lot, but a lot of it

is

noise, not really signal. Much like my posts, I suspect...

anyway, I think some of his stuff was scummy, and I'm not sure I entirely believe his cop claim, but this again is going into a "holding pattern", pending further posts from him OR an Investigation Result.

[DogMom]

Not real happy with the "I've got reasons and I'm not gonna tell you, neener neener neener", though. I understand, yes, so far they've been harmless, but...well...

I'm actually starting to enjoy that as a tactic. The reactions it draws are interesting, and possibly informative. I starting to become sensitive to the difference between the scummy things that are sometimes said and the clumsy or imprecise things that can be twisted into sounding scummy.

I also don't like how some people seem to think this needs to be a game about social conformity. "The nail that sticks out gets nailed down."

Dogmom: what is your take on ChaosOmega?

Hm. Interesting. That's a good point - but it's still annoying.

ChaosOmega? I missed him? Dangit! Seems like I'm doomed to always miss someone. (See, Erotomachia, nothing personal...)

Well, golly. ChaosOmega.
Random vote, then a one-word post to say it was random.
Then posts to say he was here, and he'd post again after he read everything.
YogurtBandit was suspicious to him, says YB is trying to look town by posting a lot, and says not many of YB's posts have been useful.
Not sure what to make of Guardian-Nanook, and then votes YB.

Doesn't like Adel's theory that anywhere from 1-3 scum are probably among the lower-content posters. Expands on this a little bit.

Posts 4 scenarios possible for the cop-roleclaims and alignment of Guardian and YogurtBandit.

FINALLY

, some content. Likes either "Both town or Guardian-cop / YB-scum". (Not sure WHY, by the way - the aforementioned "fluff posts" maybe?) Votes Adel, for the "Act scummy or I'll think you're scummy" post, plus for saying she can understand the case against her.

Man, for someone who's really willing to throw around accusations of "fluffposting", he does a lot of it. That's pretty hypocritical: of the NINE posts he's made, I'd say that only ONE of them were all that significant in game-content.
Fluffposting, by his own words, can be a scumtell. Accusing someone else of doing exactly what you're guilty of can ALSO be a scumtell.

FoS: ChaosOmega

[DogMom]

DogMom... you bet you've acted scummy. And I didn't particularly get a good vibe from you in your response to my suspicion of you. It felt something along the lines of "well, you can think that I'm scummy if you want, but ya know, whatever."

Because I've already addressed your points. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but me repeating the same thing over and over and over again isn't really going to make a difference. I know what I

meant

, it's unfortunately not what I actually

said

, because what I said left it far more open to things I hadn't intended, and nothing I say is going to change either of those.
I can keep saying that "I didn't mean that, this is what I meant" and you can keep saying "yeah, but that's what you said and I don't believe that's what you meant", so my reply to you was basically to say fine, let's take it as given that you don't like what I said, and you found it scummy, and I know what I meant (which wasn't what I said) and move on to something else.

I don't really like the vote on NanoS either... My revelations about Nanook make me think NanoS could have been legitimately suspicious of both of me and Nanook, and NanoS could have good reasons for the case on Adel.

DogMom

, what exactly has NanoS done that is scummy besides lurking

and voting for your scum partner(s)?

That's an awfully loaded question. I've

said

what he's done that I think is scummy, and now you're saying "what do you think is scummy (except for all the stuff you've already said was scummy?") THAT was pretty scummy of YOU, dontcha think?
So, howsabout I turn it around on you: what about ME do you find scummy, EXCEPT for everything you've already said was scummy?

I quite honestly don't care if he votes Adel. I thought her comment about "act scummy or I'll think you're scum" was the perfect Catch-22, and quite scummy as well.
I said I thought he was being scummy

for lurking

. For saying he's CONSTANTLY reading and updating the thread, and yet has nothing to say? He's doing a GREAT job of flying under the radar, and I'm calling him out on it.

[DogMom]

So, you basically confirm that the only reason you find him scummy is for lurking. You don't really care about any of his actions, you are just trying to look useful by calling out a lurker. You say as much in that post. You, in fact, have no reason other than him not posting as much as everyone else to think he is scummy.

Nope. I've stated it. I think he's scummy for watching the thread, constantly by his own admission, and supposedly having nothing to say. Ever. After 13-14 pages of stuff, I'd have expected him to have something to say, but he doesn't.
I find that suspicious. I also find it very suspicious that he doesn't say much, no posts at all, except to say how very very suspicious Nanook is, then all of a sudden he pops in to change his vote. The part I don't care about isn't "any of his actions" - it's the fact that he's very very happy with Nanook, has no interest whatsoever in actually contributing to the thread / game, even though he supposedly is constantly following it, then pops in to change his vote, with virtually no input. Then he disappeared again.
Should he start posting useful content, I'll unvote him, simple as that.

You

definitely

are squirming, even though I am the only one being actively suspicious of you. Why is that? Also, when you crossed out that NanoS had voted for your scum partners, what did you mean by that? Has he not yet voted for your scum partners?

You

definitely

are reaching. At least you're getting more subtle about putting words in peoples' mouths. What did I mean by crossing out the last bit? I meant "disregard this part of the sentence". I have no scum partners, so it'd be impossible for him to vote for any.

Look, at this point this is, as far as I can tell, two townies shouting at each other and kicking a lot of dust for nothing. I think it's getting distracting and it's adding to the noise in the thread, and isn't being at all helpful to town.

[DogMom]

I claimed because there was a bandwagon on me.

You say here that you claimed on prupose, but on page 7 post 159 you say...

Well, I was planning on claiming later, but I guess I kind of did.<snip>

I'm surprised no one else noticed this, given that he is changeing his story from saying, "well I didn't really mean to tell you guys that," to, "yeah, I did that because of the band wagon on me."

Iiiinnnnnnteresting. Interesting, indeed.

Back to the thread, to look over YB's posts, with this in mind. I think Adel has a good suggestion - reviewing the thread, but not necessarily bandwagoning him.

Hm. His first 5 posts are random-vote followed by 4 fluff posts.

I don't like his interaction with ChaosOmega re: Nekka-Lucifer. A second vote on someone on page 1 is hardly a "bandwagon", and then removes his vote on N-L (who had 2 votes) to place a vote on ChaosOmega (bringing him to 2 votes). He says his "had a reason". Not much of one.

He spends some time trying to make "voting without a reason" into a scumtell.
He says, after Adel's vote-diagram-thingy that the votes all "look like noise". So...if they look like noise, why was CO's vote for N-L so significant?
He asks for a "summary of the day". I still don't like that.

He later on set up the possibility for 2 Cops / 2 Docs. Hm...I dunno. He could easily have been paving the way for his cop-claim here, removing peoples' suspicion of him when he did claim.
A contradiction:
Post 121, he says that "Guardian never claimed cop". Yet, in his Very next post, he says Guardian

must be scum for

claiming cop so early!

So which is it - did he claim cop or did he NOT claim cop???

Next he says he believes Guardian is - no, wait, I'll give you his exact words, because this is inherently contradictory and I want y'all to have the contradiction straight from him:

Im investigating someone else, some one I think is Scummy.I do think you are, but I also think you are Cop

I checked the Wiki, on the "Cop" role. There's nothing in there that indicates that COP can also be SCUM.
Then comes the other contradictory post, saying he claimed because there was a bandwagon on him. No, he didn't. He soft-claimed...sorta...but didn't intend to...but maybe he did...
And fercryinoutloud, claiming at Lynch-3?

In sum:
Problems / contradictions I've found with YB's posts:
1) He doesn't like ChaosOmega putting a second vote on someone, yet he turns around and does it.
2) Says that Guardian never claimed cop, then says in his next post that Guardian claimed cop.
3) Says he thinks Guardian is scum, but also that Guardian is Cop.
4) He initially says he didn't intend to claim, but later says he actually DID intend to claim because he had a bandwagon on him.

Don't like it. I don't like it at all. And all this contradiction makes me want to vote YOU more than Nano"no, really, I'm ALWAYS reading the thread but I'm not finding anything really important enough to comment on"sauromo, so

unvote: Nanosauromo

FoS: YogurtBandit

(FoS-not-vote because of Adel's request. I don't want this to turn into a mindless bandwagon, I want to wait and think about it.)

[DogMom]

Look, at this point this is, as far as I can tell, two townies shouting at each other and kicking a lot of dust for nothing. I think it's getting distracting and it's adding to the noise in the thread, and isn't being at all helpful to town.

Yep, so keep it down you two.

You

definitely

are reaching.

Guardian seems to have a habit of that. It happened 3 times in this thread alone. > >

So I've noticed.

[DogMom]

I noticed that theopor_COD thanked Kelly Chen for "checking the setup."

That made me think that it's perhaps not such a simple setup. So I think two cops are certainly a possibility.

That's why for now I trust both Guardian and YogurtBandit.

YogurtBandit has certainly behaved strangely, but I think he may have just made some mistakes out of confusion and uncertainty.

Outguessing mod. BAADD!!

I checked the Wiki, on the "Cop" role. There's nothing in there that indicates that COP can also be SCUM.

I think you're taking the quote far too literally and trying to put words into his mouth.

Some of your points are valid DogMom, for example claiming while at L-3 and the multiple contradictions. However, it looks to me like what Erotomachia said, confusion and uncertainty. I don't like this contradiction though, it looks like he was trying to get a point across and was misunderstood. Something you can understand because of Guardian's suspicion on you, right?

Oh, absolutely I can, which is another reason I haven't voted him. He very well could've been trying to get a point across, and was misunderstood. I'm waiting to see what he has to say about all of it.

He really could be confused and uncertain, just like the rest of us. I just don't like the

pattern

- but then again, if he IS a cop, then I'd obviously rather keep him around.

[DogMom]

EBWODP: Arg, bloody quote tags!

then pops in to change his vote, with virtually no input.

Okay, I'll explain my actions then.

In the beginning, Nanookthewolf simply seemed scummy because he voted along with Gaurdian, following Gaurdian's "logic" but not explaining what this "logic" was. For a while, he seemed like the scummiest guy around, and thus I kept my vote on him.

But then Adel came along. His catch-22 of "Do something scummy or I will be forced to think you are scum." tipped off my scum detector. He now seemed more scummy than Nanook. He was now my prime candidate for a lynch. His pressuring of people to vote quickly reinforced my belief.

With that said, Theo, can we get a vote count?

yeh sure, give me ten mins. I deleted your previous duplicated post

Thank you muchly!

So...what do you think of YogurtBandit / Guardian / etc. ?

[DogMom]

Coupla things:
From what I've seen it's pretty common to breadcrumb early. I breadcrumbed "Doc" my 3rd post to Newbie 328. I think it'd be more suspicious if the breadcrumbing had happened later on in the game; it'd look more like he was scum setting up a false-claim after suspicion had started to aim toward him.
(I've seen it before, which is why I mentioned it here.)

@ Adel: where did you get that two-person-under-suspicion quote you used?

And, for them what's don't know what it is and don't want to look it up,

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

*snert*. QFT. I think I'm gonna embroider that on a shirt.

[DogMom]

Guardian, a thing that my mind has just brought attention to me, I was thinking if we really are both cops, The Mafia could kill one and blame the other for lying. Which would kill both cops, If not both townspersons. I mean come on. We must really be aware that lynching one of us isnt the smart thing to do.

Even if I am scum, would I really want you lynched? No.

(bolding mine)

Why? If you're scum, why would you

not

want the cop lynched? You

say

you-scum could have him NKed, but he's a

claimed cop

. You really think that if we have a doc, there's not at least a 50% chance the doc is gonna protect him? And if the doc thinks you're lying, then yeah, Guardian-cop's chances of being protected go

way

up. You-scum's ONLY chance at getting a SURE kill of the cop will be to have him lynched.

If you weren't trying to get him lynched, why did you claim? Why the "Oh, I don't believe Guardian's a cop, he can't be the cop, I'm gonna vote him" post if you don't want him lynched?

This post isn't making sense to me at all. You're just getting more and more wrapped up in your contradictions.

Re: Nanosauromo. Man. Pops in just to post a couple things that basically wind up to be "my post is my cite" then bops out again, even though he's "constantly checking" on this thread. STILL, after over 17 pages, has NOTHING to say. Gimme a break.

FoS: YogurtBandit & Nanosauromo

[DogMom]

Catching up from yesterday's stuff...

Ok, we're under deadline of Saturday, so I think it's time for me to codify some random thoughts.

The big play of the day has obviously been the 2 cop claims. I don't like it, either. I honestly don't think we'd have 2 cops in a Mini-game,

but

I'm not going to be second-guessing the mod, either. So it stands. Also, there's scummy behavior from each of the 2 claimants, so I really can't choose. In any case, I think neither of them is the play for today.

YagamiLight I've seen really nothing scummy about; ditto MeMe.

Adel...Adel's made some

weird

suggestions, but she's got a track record of weird suggestions. Some of 'em may be due to newbieness. In any case, she's posted

quite

a bit of content and I think her suggestions, though sometimes odd and potentially harmful to town, have been with good intent to try to

help

town.

Erotomachia and ChaosOmega have both come across as generally town as well, along with Streeflo, IMO. I've been over the case on both sides for Nanook, and suffice it to say that I don't think he's the play for today either.

So now we're down to Nanosauromo and Battle Mage, and for the same reason, essentially. I don't like lurking, especially when someone claims to be constantly refreshing and watching, but just has nothing to say. However, Nano

has

tried to post SOME analysis in the last few posts, which is making me lean toward Battle Mage.
Especially after Battle Mage's claim to be "in exams" this week. Oh really? No time to play Mafia?
Let's see....his last post in here before his "exam claim" was A throwaway post claiming people are "jealous", and occurred on June 8.
Since that post he has posted to

several

games, only one other of which have a deadline, and a few "game ideas" threads and so forth. All the time in the world to play the other twenty games he's enrolled in, but not here? I don't think so. Lurking-as-a-tactic is a stupid one, and it just doesn't pay off. Especially not in THIS game!

Vote: Battle Mage

On preview: Dang, yeah, what MeMe said and everything. Geez.

[DogMom]

<quick zoom-by>
Hi everybody - I totally understand the whole RL thing getting in the way of posting and stuff, cause right now I'm up to my ass in alligators and won't have time to check in today at all, but will (it is to be hoped) have time tomorrow, so for now

UNVOTE

since I won't have time to check in again today.

In the quick skim I've taken of the last day or so of stuff, I see that Battle Mage has checked in several times, every single one of which has been pretty much shouting at MeMe about his participation in this game / other games / whatever.

I'm going to reiterate MeMe's request to BM, really.

BattleMage: If you have time to post to bunches of (OTHER) threads, could you maybe please put that on hold for just ONE TIME, and take that time instead to read this one and do some game-analysis in this one? I'm hoping when I check in tomorrow that you'll have that going (since you said you would on...um...Friday, I think).
I really just want to hear from you on pretty much any game-related topic except how you've been getting shit from everywhere and how you don't have time to read, analyze and post in this thread.
thanks.
</quick zoom-by>

[DogMom]

Buggers. My schedule isn't going to clear up anytime soon, it looks like, so I've just requested replacement.

I'm having a lot of fun with this one, so it really pains me to say this, but my schedule just got unexpectedly VERY busy, and I just won't have the time to devote to this game that I really should, and that it deserves. As much as I'm enjoying it, it just wouldn't be fair to everyone else for me to stay in the game. I am therefore requesting replacement ASAP.

Sorry, guys. I really wanted to play this one out.