Mastin Academy

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:34 pm

Post by mastin2 »

So I decided to help out a prospective moderator-to-be and deliver some general modding advice. This is nothing groundbreaking, not in the least. Basically every veteran mod knows these instinctively. However, for the sake of players who have never moderated an MS.net game and are unfamiliar with it, I decided I might as well give a few pointers. Some advice to use as "research", if you will.

The road to modding on MS.net is achieved one of two ways: Opens, or Normals. Normals, you get practice designing games to meet mafiascum.net standards yet go through a review group (that I am, loosely, a member of); Opens you get to see games that have already been designed and how they work, to give you a better idea for the mechanics of games on MS.net. The net result is in both cases, theoretically, a moderator who has knowledge of how games work on here, so that when they run their "bigger" ideas, they end up working. (This is, incidentally, the reason we have the requirement of on-site experience for newbies before they're allowed to mod: the idea is that they'll have played a few games and seen their balance, so that when they design their own game, they have a much better feeling for what works and what doesn't, and what is standard and what isn't.)

This is all common knowledge, which probably any upcoming moderator quickly becomes aware of. As are some of the modding guides that I recommend reading. (In particular, Vi has made one or two that I strongly recommend moderators read. It might be
a couple
[
Edit:
The years fly by; it's four] years old by now, but if you read the guide in its entirety, it is no less valid than when it was originally written. Heck, a fair amount of what I'm saying is in there.) What might not be so common are tips beyond that, so some general tips that will help you on the road to moderation:

-Research games you enjoyed playing in, and see their setups. What made their roles/mechanics/etc. work? Really analyze it, and don't blindly try to recreate it. (This is especially true if meta has shifted since the original game. A game I loved playing in 2009 I made a homage to a year or two ago. The game had to go through EXTENSIVE review before it was passed by contemporary site meta as balanced in spite of the similar setup, because of the different times, and even though it passed the review, it still left people slightly unhappy because the balance wasn't perfect.) What made the game particularly memorable, what make it truly magnificent. Take good notes; this is often just as much a result of the moderator and players as it is the setup and the mechanics.

The idea behind research is to figure out what makes the best setups that you can make, while still retaining your own touches to it.

-Keep things short, sweet, and simple. Succinctness as a mod is greatly appreciated to all parties involved (with the exception of flavor), and the better organized and clear things are, the less work you'll have. (This is especially true when you ask for reviewers, or are in a queue mandating them. The better prepared you are, the easier and faster it will be to get your setup greenlit.)

-This applies to mechanics and roles, too! Generally, it's better to have a streamlined simple setup that doesn't have a ton of ideas in it rather than a complex mess of a setup that has a ton of ideas in it. (You can always save those other ideas for a different game!) This is particularly true of Normals, since the review group takes unkindly to a PR-heavy setup in a Normal. (Obviously, people don't really care nearly as much about it in themes.)

-I'd strongly advise doing some MD reading on roles that you're planning to use, and wiki searches as well. (Note that you want to avoid MAKING an MD thread about a role you're planning on using, since if you make said thread, people are quite likely to put two and two together.)

-Speaking of MD, a decent place to look at getting some quick insight into games is to look at the review group for Opens. There are a TON of very creative, unique opens designed on the site, and some of them are quite complex with some incredibly-customized mechanics/roles. Hanging around and browsing through there can not only give you inspiration, but via reading their responses, general ideas about how balanced/imbalanced said ideas are.

-One of the things you'll find makes the most successful games is being invested in the game, yet not being bossy. This is the reason why mods like bork are legends: they gave a "relaxed" feeling to their game, and yet they were always there, never apathetic. So when you run your own game, always be there. Give a votecount every page you can. Check in at least once if not twice every day at minimum. Keep players active, yet keep them entertained. Amusing bumps for top-of-page votecounts, for instance, are a good way to get people laughing in a good way. If you keep up on prods/replacements, and if you keep your players liking you, you're going to have a successful game more often than not. It can, quite literally, be THE very defining feature determining the difference between your game going down as a success and it going down as a failure.

So a basic summary of some tips that will work for modding in general are:
-Keep things as simple as they can be.
-ALWAYS be as fully prepared as possible.
-Research in advance as much as you can.
-Always be there, and if all else fails...entertain people.

Will these tips guarantee what you design won't be horribly unbalanced and a terrible idea to run? Heck no. But by following them, you'll get a much firmer grasp on how to stop that from happening.

Edit:
Additional reading; Vi's (3-year-old, still valid) article on making enjoyable games.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:04 am

Post by Ranmaru »

/in

I'd like to hydra to become better at mafia. : D I would prefer to join a small.

*edit* Just realized you may not be able to fully commit. I don't mind having to solo if i have to as long as you give me some help along the way, if that is possible.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:01 pm

Post by T S O »

I'm taking over Mastin Academy. Direct all questions to me. I may also start posting from my mastin2 account, so don't be alarmed if I start making jokes on it.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:57 pm

Post by Voidedmafia »

Uh-huh.
2011 scummies winner (BTS help) and participant;

coming back to Mafia...slowly. Keep an eye for me as a mod.
Also keep an eye for setup review requests.
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:51 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Yeah, just so newbies are aware, TSO is trolling; he is not me.

I'm coming back into the world of mafia theory slowly, and do still reference things here (in fact, I referenced the top-of-page modding thing to a prospective mod just yesterday), so the thread's not dead to the point where I'd lock it and questions are always welcome, be it via PM or in here. But I mainly give suggestions on-the-fly nowadays, giving bits and pieces of advice as the inspiration strikes me.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:45 am

Post by Vampirate »

In post 229, mastin2 wrote:Yeah, just so newbies are aware, TSO is trolling; he is not me.


But like both of your avatars feature a face with Blue eyes looking to the right, lips. TSO's avatar has an avatar with yellow/blonde hair while your avatar has an avatar with yellow/blonde skin.


There's too many similarities.
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:09 am

Post by T S O »

In post 229, mastin2 wrote:Yeah, just so newbies are aware, TSO is trolling; he is not me.


One of my classic jokes!
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:22 pm

Post by mastin2 »

So I've decided here's as good a place as any to note that I'm starting my project to tweak my mafia theory. There's a few reasons for this, notably, that I want it to still be relevant, want to replace references to me being male to their appropriate gender, to streamline it, and frankly because the ideas I came up with back then are things that I could always use a refresher in. :P

For a start, I streamlined my article Stop Bussing.
(I think there's still a little bit of repetition that could be removed, perhaps a tidbit of verbosity, and it could maybe do with some sections being removed as sections to shorten it still, because some of those sections are one-liners I could easily tack onto somewhere else and the ordering could maybe use some adjustment to achieve this, but I'm happy having gotten what I did.)
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:00 am

Post by vezokpiraka »

I think the best thing line of that entry is the last.

Think before you bus. It depends a lot on setup, but only bus when the situation calls for it.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:06 am

Post by T S O »

Alternatively, grease up those wheels and hop the fuck on.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Btw, this isn't a full lecture, more like an addendum to my lecture to prospective mods, but basically, I have a plea:

"Keep things simple" should apply to as many things as you can (possible exception: flavor), which includes things like your rules. Many, many games have had incidents where a player either gets in trouble or gains an advantage they shouldn't have thanks to them not having bothered to read the rules...because they looked, the rules were too long, they skimmed, figured it was all the same, and left it be, not actually reading the rules which may be important. (Heck, I don't read the rules in most games I play because I do this, too.)

If your rules are over a screenwidth long, they're too long. People don't need to (and won't actually) read that much. Let's compare two of my games' rulesets. Both were Larges, with about the same number of players. This was an earlier game (a Normal):
mastin2 wrote:
LAY OF THE LAND
(aka, the rules):

Thanks to Percy/Zwetschenwasser/Powerrox93/Substrike22/Amor/AurorusVox/Alduskkel which my ruleset borrows from, along with my initial reviewers DarthYoshi and AGar and later reviewers Faraday and AngryPidgeon, plus setup reviewers Empking, mykonian, & Cogito Ergo Sum.

Mechanics:

This setup is approved by Normal Game guidelines--as such, friendly reminder: flavor is just flavor. This game has a day-start. Everyone with night-talk may communicate during Pregame, but must stop once Day One has begun, unless otherwise stated. Day ends when either Deadline hits or a majority has been reached.

During the Night Phase, all roles with a Night Action must submit it before deadline; failure to do so is a No Action. If you fear you won't be around, you're allowed to submit an action in advance, and you are allowed to change your submitted night action any time before the night deadline.

Deadline for Day is 20 days, and Night 4 days (96 hours).

Voting:

Votes/unvotes are formatted as
Vote: Alduskkel
, requiring either to be bolded or using vote/unvote tags. If I understand who it's for, it counts. Colons and capitalization are preferred but not required;
vote ald
would be valid.

My job is easier if you unvote before voting and if your vote is on a separate line, such as
Vote: DaMod
...But it's not required.

When a majority of votes has been reached, a lynch has occurred and the game goes into twilight; no further votes or unvotes will count. Players can also vote to No Lynch, requiring the same threshold as a player.

If deadline hits with no majority, the player with the most votes is lynched. If there's a tie, the player who reached that number first is lynched, unless one of the players had more votes than that recently. This exception means in the case of descending votes, the player who reached that number
last
will be lynched.

Death:

Upon your death, you're allowed one 'bah' post--the only restriction is having no game content in it. This applies to replacements as well; once formally replaced, you are out of the game and may not post at all.

Activity:

Treat this game as a devotion; you signed up to play, so actually play! Try posting content every day. If you don't post every 72 hours (3 days), you'll receive an official prod unless you declared V/LA. If you do not post for another 48 hours (2 days) (total of 120 hours [5 days]), or would receive your third prod, I will replace you. I also hand out unofficial prods on player request.

Don't be a jerkass:

This is a game--have fun and don't make your fun detrimental to others' enjoyment. Keep things clean and civil: don't invoke personal attacks and do not abuse emphasis or curse words; an occasional F-bomb is okay, cursing every other word is not.

Modding:

I'm a mod, not a god. I reserve the right to change my ruleset as needed, be it to correct a flaw or to reflect the gamestate (such as shortening deadline if the game has stalled). I am also prone to errors and if you believe one has occurred, say so. If you have a question, don't be afraid to ask; I'll do what I can to clarify.

Standard stuff:

No outside discussion on this game other than to me unless allowed by your PM, no talking about ongoing games, do not lie to me to gain an advantage in-thread, and do not quote mod communications (though paraphrasing is allowed).

Technicalities:

No loopholes! Follow the spirit of the rules, not the letter. When in doubt, ask.

Violations:

Though I am understanding and lenient, I do have my limits--don't push me. I will hand out warnings, I will force-replace, and if I have to, I will modkill, punishing the modkilled player in the most severe way possible.

Mod Colors:

<<< My mod colors are bolded
pure-black
,
green
, and
red
contained within marks like these. >>>

AngryPidgeon, my co-mod, uses this color; avoid using it yourself.


Sample VT Role PM:
Hello, and welcome to Large 164: Manic Street Mafia, *
Playername
*!

You are a
Vanilla Townie
! Your only weapons are your Instinct, Intuition, Voice, and your Vote.

You are aligned with the
town
. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The game thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!
Did you actually read all that? Go pat yourself on the back if you did, but I can tell you, I sure didn't.

Now compare that to the far more compact ruleset I used the last game I ran:
mastin2 wrote:
RULES
:

  • Flavor's flavor. Nothing more.

  • Standard site rules are in place; you should REALLY know these by now.

  • Deadlines:
    Days are three weeks (or until lynch); nights are three days (except weekend-nights which're four).
    This game uses plurality lynches.
    Ties are broken by the person most-recently the highest above the other (e.g. 5/4 becoming 4/4, or 4/3 becoming 4/4). No-lynching is possible, with the same threshold as a player. However, unless otherwise specified, failure to submit an action is a no-action. (I do accept them in advance and in PTs.)

  • Voting
    must be bolded or in vote tags to be counted. If I recognize who it's for, it counts.

  • I'll send out
    Prods
    after three days, but will poke players on request before then. They must post within two days and cannot let themselves receive five prods, or they'll be replaced.

  • Have fun, but
    don't be a jerkass
    . (Really, in THIS game, you need to have the mindset of this being a casual game for fun, to be taken lightly.) Seriously, I'll force-replace you if you prove toxic to the game's atmosphere.

  • MISC:

    1. I do allow contentless "
      bah
      " posts with no restriction other than lacking game content.
    2. <<< Pure, bolded black within these marks is my modding color. There's no way to accidentally use these; DON'T USE THEM. >>>

    3. Voidedmafia is my co/backup mod and will be assisting me when needed.
      He uses bolded red, so try to avoid that as well.

    4. Golden rule? ASK! I'll do what I can to answer. Got a complaint? Raise it, and I'll do what I can.
    5. Loophole abuse
      will be treated just as seriously as (if not moreso than) the actual crime. Seriously. Just don't. The game's meant to be FUN, and if you're seeking loopholes, you're not in the right game. (For instance, I take
      very
      poorly to prod-dodges. Just announce V/LA.)


  • SPECIAL GAME RULE:
    I 100% guarantee you that the information in your
    initial
    PM is correct. I also will guarantee that moderator answers to any hypothetical role interactions are as closely possible to 100% accurate as well. Furthermore, I guarantee no alignment/role changes. I will make no guarantees beyond that, thus, consider this game to be "bastard".
    • Seriously, by signing up to play this game, you're agreeing to throw out any expectation of balance or sense. This game's purely for the fun of it, so really, really don't take it too seriously. (That having been said, DO play to your wincon, please.)

VT Sample PM wrote:Hello,
Playername
! You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

You possess no powers aside from your instinct and your intuition, along-side your ability to express your voice and to vote.

You are aligned with the
town
; you win when all threats to it have been eliminated and at least one town player lives.

Please confirm in-thread you've read and understand your role PM. Game thread's here.

Good luck, and have fun!
That game was a theme, so it had some additional rule wording in it...yet instead of being two screendwidths like the first, it's half a screendwith long. It conveys the same information as the first ruleset (in fact having started out as one and the same before I started compacting and reducing it), yet does so in a fraction of the space. It's much, much easier to read and far more succinct.

If a notorious wallposter can do it, so can you. Cut the verbosity; we don't really need it. Just give us the essentials.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:35 am

Post by Aeronaut »

Just going to say that that original modding article, as well as the one you wrote really helped me out when I read it.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:05 pm

Post by mastin2 »

That was enough to inspire me to see about doing some extra work. In this case, getting the wiki up to date on here. My lecture on Walling Format has now been turned into a wiki page.

The modding one I wrote can now be found in wiki format.

I similarly created an article containing my modding ruleset, because of how succinct it is.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:13 am

Post by Ankamius »

If you're up for another topic, can you talk about how to avoid getting detached from games? This is my biggest struggling point and it's a huge struggle to stay caught up in games that either move insanely fast or have too much irrelevant noise (walls fit somewhat into this).

I can be effective in games when I have a grasp on the game, but disengaging and becoming a nonfactor happens far more often.
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:34 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Well, I took a stab at combatting apathy two years ago, so you can try reading that for a start, but I have a feeling it's not going to help--it wasn't the most helpful back then, so two years later I can't imagine it'd be of much use. Worth a try, though. (Never know until you look.) In particular, the change strategies tip is probably worth a look.

I'll try to give a 2015 lecture on the subject, though, because it's still as big a problem as ever, and I
think
I can get some solutions. Some basic things that I will do when I become emotionally detached from the game:

-Embrace your status. You have nothing (or almost nothing) in the game. Own up to it, admit it, and then use this to your advantage. The very thing that is your problem can become your salvation. In short, because you are detached, you have a clean slate of sorts. Don't try to hold onto things. Use this fresh mind to form new opinions, and be unafraid of whatever you said prior to your detachment.

-That being said, you'll want to have something to produce. I will frequently give out "hipgun" reads when detached, where I will point out things that make me lean one way or another, but nothing too big, nothing formal, nothing I have an attachment to. The first thing you have to do to get rid of your detachment is to realize this is acceptable. It's okay to not have much direction. It's okay to be clueless. As long as you have something you feel is productive to add, even if it is a one-liner about a single person with a single post.

-It never hurts to do a readslist. For detachment, I generally don't do tiers, that being, town null scum, but I'll put a list in order that gives my approximate feelings on things. This helps others see what you're seeing, sure, but it's also a HUGE benefit for yourself, since it allows you to have a better grasp on your own holdings on the game. Yeah, you'll have a lot of names you don't know where to put, with their order hugely flexible, but again, simply vocalizing this can be of help.

-Sometimes, too much is too much. Very often, in games, I will give up on having read the whole game, instead reading only as much as I can tolerate. This may be "only new stuff as of this point". It may be "ten pages prior to this point". It may be only-isos. It may be scattershot, pages 1-10, 40-50, 78-93, etc. Some people can read entire games, and good for them if they can, but most can't...and even of those who can, most can't process the information in a productive manner. There is a certain point where there's simply too much information for us to handle, and we all reach it at a point, so know that you'll have one, and if you reach it...change approach to something you can better handle.

-When in doubt, skim. It's horrible to do, I know, but if you can't handle the influx of information, cheat. Everyone does it a little bit whether they admit it or not, so don't try to read everything. Pick up only the important parts.

-Relatedly, choose your battles. If you can pick up a few important parts, focus on those. If you can't find any important parts to focus on, then it's alright to go into a little bit of a blind flail and comment on a lot of random things. Anything that can help keep you focused, you should be doing.

-Recognize that you won't always have something to say, so whenever you try it might be forced...but don't be discouraged by it. I often can get away with not posting when I have nothing to say, but sometimes I can't and if you're the type who almost always can't, then this is something you'll need to do.

-Overall, one of the best tips is to remains as active and involved as possible, even if you've grown detached. Apathy is a horrendous monster, eating away at your soul, but if you keep up your activity, posting as frequently as you can, then generally you can do an okay job of keeping it at bay.

Sorry I can't offer you much better advice. It was true then, it's still true now; to this day, I struggle with apathy, so I'm probably not the most qualified to talk about keeping attachment to a game. But this is what I have, so take what you can from it.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:42 am

Post by Bellaphant »

I think ^ is good advice for replacing in, as well
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:32 am

Post by elusive »

Hey mastin,

We've played together in two games but haven't really interacted much.

I will PM you :)
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:04 am

Post by Runner »

I've taken a long break from forum mafia and have come back recently. Luckily I haven't forgotten everything. But one thing which led to my departure previously was that I didn't quite know what I was doing/meant to be doing. I know that sounds silly since obviously the aim is to catch scum (and avoid being caught as scum). To refresh my memory on how to do that I've been reading up on a lot of games from around the forum which have piqued my interest, mostly Micros, Opens and Minis. But the varied nature/the role of chance in of all the games meant that I couldn't really learn from them.

Basically, could you recommend some completed games which you would suggest are good reading for newer players trying to figure out how to scumhunt effectively? Also, any games which are evidence of good scum play? Specific players to watch would be good too. I tried looking for something similar in the Wiki but it's outdated and I reckon the site meta will have changed since the games that were mentioned there ended.

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MarioManiac4
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:45 am

Post by MarioManiac4 »

In post 242, Runner wrote:I've taken a long break from forum mafia and have come back recently. Luckily I haven't forgotten everything. But one thing which led to my departure previously was that I didn't quite know what I was doing/meant to be doing. I know that sounds silly since obviously the aim is to catch scum (and avoid being caught as scum). To refresh my memory on how to do that I've been reading up on a lot of games from around the forum which have piqued my interest, mostly Micros, Opens and Minis. But the varied nature/the role of chance in of all the games meant that I couldn't really learn from them.

Basically, could you recommend some completed games which you would suggest are good reading for newer players trying to figure out how to scumhunt effectively? Also, any games which are evidence of good scum play? Specific players to watch would be good too. I tried looking for something similar in the Wiki but it's outdated and I reckon the site meta will have changed since the games that were mentioned there ended.

Tia


HI RUNNER! :D
And I would suggest reading Newbie 1603, a perfect town win. They basically caught both scum in the first day
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Bacde
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:00 pm

Post by Bacde »

do epicmafia credits transfer to mastin academy???
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Jake from State Farm
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:20 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

Serious question, how do I get better and less tunnely?
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Salamence20
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:48 pm

Post by Salamence20 »

In post 245, Jake from State Farm wrote:Serious question, how do I get better and less tunnely?


Dont play with me!!!

Welcome back :)
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Jake from State Farm
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:52 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

I'm not going out of my way to avoid anyone but I'll try to remember. Still not sure if I'm going to play or not but want to figure out how to stop tunneling and how to convince people to Lynch people I know are scum. My last game I knew someone was scum and that person survived and won. That's like the 2 or 3rd time its happened.
Show
Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Jake from State Farm
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:53 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

I think you were one of the other people, fucking Miller claim lol
Show
Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Salamence20
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:08 pm

Post by Salamence20 »

If it makes you feel better, my scum game has gone to shit lately.
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