Mini 413 - Famous CATS - Over! Quit pussyfooting around!

[Primate]

Pooky, that last argument is BS.

And I refuse to take your arguments at any sort of serious level until you stop calling them masons. So far no masons have claimed in this game yet, and its distorting the truth to say they have. There are townies that can back each other up under certain conditions, like me and Massive, but we don't flat out confirm each other. I confirmed Massives role, not his alignment, and I never said otherwise, and I just think it unlikely that role was scum, and seeing as how it was out in the open other people were perfectly able to argue against me. It was never a masonry, anyway, it was

one role

that was very unlikely to be scum. Seeing as how you're insisting that me and him were masons, how do you respond to the fact that he was actually the person driving for my lynch more than anyone day 2?

And insisting Carbon Copy/Zindaras is masons is stupid. The role has a large history of being scum, makes more sense as scum, and any protestation of innocence just boils down to "Don't lynch me, I'm innocent, honest". It lacks pretty much all the qualities that make a mason a mason except for the fact that it's two roles with a single role, if you get me.

So I don't think anyone this game has claimed mason so far except Miztef/Thesp, and one of those two wasn't town, so I really think your entire argument based on the crushing weight of confirmed innocents is bunkum.

TBH, Pooky, your play here is reminding me a lot of your play in MTGWeatherlight.

[Skruffs]

Have you been using it? Because if you have the ability to bus actions around, you are not helping by not talking.
Who's scummy to Carbon Copy?

[Primate]

If he has a bus-driver ability, the play is obviously for him to switch Theo with someone random and to target all vigs at Nai. That pretty much solves our problems, and there aren't many ways it could be disrupted.

[Primate]

That said, I don't see any reason to assume that is the case.

[Skruffs]

Well, I'd rather vig scum. But, on the other hand, I think by the end of the day we'll have a very good reason to know who is who.

I'm really confused how Nai suggests we test me. I am more than wiling to target anyone anyone wants, but it's as likely to be a doctor, vig, roleblock, grant ability, turn them purple, give them extra lives, neuter them, I don't know. I have no idea what to expect. So. Sorry. If you think the only way to test me is to have my lynched, when we are at LyLo, that's... also odd. I have an inspection on me.
Theo can see me as being a godfather, which means he believes that Glork's inspections are true, but he doesn't want to lynch Pooky, because it's lylo. So that's kind of weird, in my eyes. He is wiling to believe I'm a godfather and was imune to inspection, but, nto so sure about a guilty on someone else. So. Yah.

[DrippingGoofball]

So I don't think anyone this game has claimed mason so far except

Miztef/Thesp,

and

one of those two wasn't town

[...]

Zplease explain. Miztef is still alive. Thesp was town.

Which one of the two do you declare is scum, then? Is the scum the dead townie Thesp, or the still living Miztef?

Just curious.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No I don't get you at all

What is the difference between CarbonCopy/Zindaras which is 1 player who is playing 2 characters and a mason group of 2 players?

I'd think there's an ADVANTAGE in that the CC/Zind thing can't have a scum mason because it makes no sense to give 1 player 2 alignments which makes it BETTER than the standard mason pair.

Could you tell me what the difference is? WHY does the role make more sense as a scum role?(note that if it does make more sense as a scum role its very existence would be void as lynching the alt who signed up specifically for this game would be an optimal play whenever such an alt is present which makes the creation of such a scum role entirely pointless since the bloody alt is going to be lynched on day one anyway)

[Carbon Copy]

Have you been using it? Because if you have the ability to bus actions around, you are not helping by not talking.
Who's scummy to Carbon Copy?

Again, don't fish. I have never stated whether or not it is a nightrole. This question is awfully suggestive.

As for my suspicions, as I said, I have to reread the thread, but, at the moment, I feel Pooky is the better lynch.

No I don't get you at all

What is the difference between CarbonCopy/Zindaras which is 1 player who is playing 2 characters and a mason group of 2 players?

I'd think there's an ADVANTAGE in that the CC/Zind thing can't have a scum mason because it makes no sense to give 1 player 2 alignments which makes it BETTER than the standard mason pair.

Could you tell me what the difference is? WHY does the role make more sense as a scum role?(note that if it does make more sense as a scum role its very existence would be void as lynching the alt who signed up specifically for this game would be an optimal play whenever such an alt is present which makes the creation of such a scum role entirely pointless since the bloody alt is going to be lynched on day one anyway)

The point is that if I say "Zindaras is town", there's no reason to believe me. It would be the exact same as you saying "Pooky is town". Therefore, I can't call on being a Mason as a way of clearing myself.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No it is entirely different.

If Pooky says he's innocent and he is cleared by a cop investigation, the scum can wipe that out in 1 night by killing pooky

If You say Zindaras is innocent and you are cleared by a cop investigation it takes TWO nights for scum to wipe that out.

Also you are putting two LIVES on the line in terms of game lives.

[Skruffs]

CC, don't take this as a FOS or anything, but...
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/01/57322
Apparently teh cloned cat was nothing like the original.
Since CC was a eral cat, I really highly doubt CC is scum, however, they're two seperate roles, for sure.
Are you sure you received a gift n0? And it wasn't inherent?

[Nai]

you don't lynch claimed masons to learn the alignment of both BECAUSE SCUM DONT STICK THEIR HEADS OUT AND CLAIM TO BE MASONS.

Lowell/Mikanoff acted scummy as hell day one, came under fire, claimed masons and pressure instantly vanished and niether of them were lynched.

This is EXACTLY why it can work. Players like you think that a mafioso would never claim a mason and, therefore, will never catch scum when they claim mason because they 'don't stick their heads out and claim to be masons'. Which is stupid.

And, now, I'm done with this argument. This is an argument for playstyle and game-making, and we need neither. As it was said, there's no mason claims here.

If he has a bus-driver ability, the play is obviously for him to switch Theo with someone random and to target all vigs at Nai. That pretty much solves our problems, and there aren't many ways it could be disrupted.

Why, exactly, should we be targetting me, now? Where did this come up? Why do you want to target a guy that's not only a role-cop but a vig?

I'm really confused how Nai suggests we test me. I am more than wiling to target anyone anyone wants, but it's as likely to be a doctor, vig, roleblock, grant ability, turn them purple, give them extra lives, neuter them, I don't know. I have no idea what to expect. So. Sorry. If you think the only way to test me is to have my lynched, when we are at LyLo, that's... also odd. I have an inspection on me.

I don't know how we can test you. The problem is, though, by claiming what you have, there's no way to prove you are town. I don't like that.

Also you are putting two LIVES on the line in terms of game lives.

Numbers-wise, unless the scum have 4 people in this game, losing one half of a role like Zindaras has is, actually, no big deal. That'd put us down to normal mafia numbers, which is fine, because then we're at 9/3 with a confirmed townie.

Which makes me wonder... Do the mafia have 4 members?

Apparently teh cloned cat was nothing like the original.

Good point. However, how does this affect the game? Do you think that Carbon Copy is mafia, or something?

From a game-making perspective, you could feasibly make a Mafia/Townie role, with two lives, and just forbid them from revealing their fellow players. Then just hope the player follows the rules.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

No it can't work, it has never worked and it never will work.

Consider what can happen when scum claim mason day 1:

One of them can get investigated
One of them can get nightkilled by an opposing group or SK

If either happens that's TWO scum down and the scumgroup is pretty much screwed from there on out.

and even IF they somehow luckily manage to avoid the 2 possibilities from SHEER LUCK then by the time the endgame rolls around people will begin asking why both of the masons are still alive.

It's a claim that has INCREDIBLE RISK with very little gain because NOBODY EXPECTS REAL MASONS TO LIVE TO ENDGAME ANYWAY AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHEN THE OCCASIONAL SK WILL TAKE A SHOT AT YOU.

[Skruffs]

Hrm.
DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER TO SHOUT ALL THE TIME?

[Glork]

I think he thinks it makes him come across as more genuine/angry/sincere.

Really, it's just a form of Appeal to Emotion.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So do you have an example of where mafia fakeclaimed mason on day one and got away with it?

Heck do you even have an example of where mafia fakeclaimed mason on day one period?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Actually yes it does make me feel better to shout

this game makes me want to pull my hair out and bash my head into walls

typing in all caps relieves some of the tension I feel.

Have fun criticizing what form I type instead of actually rebuffing my logic with actual counterexamples. You can shout appeal to emotion all you want and avoid trying to counter my logic all day. You'll probably even get away with it because it's apparent that this town cares nothing for logic.

[Nai]

Again, I'm not having this conversation anymore. It has nothing to do with this game.

What I find interesting about Pooky's posts is that he's trying to prove his point by insult, debasing you first. Then he puts burden of proof on YOU, without backing himself up at all. When confronted with alternatives, or when his own arguments are thrown in his face, he slides to the side and refuses to talk about them, instead attacking elsewhere. He's also spent a lot of time talking about this argument, something completely irrelevant to the game, without actually caring about the game itself.

I find the latter bit scummy. He's made up roles, form-fitting claims to suit himself, then using those form-fitted claims as evidence for a contrived 'plan' for the scum to follow. He wants us to believe, with no proof at all, that he is town, because that's the only way his argument works. Any doubt at all and this 'scum plan' falls down around his ears. He's also throwing the entire game in our faces, pointing out things that no one else has had a problem with and making it seem as if there's an actual problem involved.

[Glork]

Nai, do you have any preference between lynching Pooky or DGB? 'Cause I'm really fine with either...

[Nai]

Hrm. I'm not entirely sure. Both are equally scummy to me right now. Pooky is potentially a big threat with his replacement. DGB could give some goodies away to her team mates, if she's not banned from that.

[Skruffs]

THe only people who's received goodies from DGB - we think - or that claimed to have received anything - was me and Theopor. Are we her 'teammates'?
Glork, sholdn't you ONLY want to lynch peole you have a guilty on in LYLO situations?

[DrippingGoofball]

Z'it appears that somebody got a cop investigation - you think scum would be giving out cop-investigations, in a town that already has a role-sending cop (Glork) and a cop/vig (Nai)??? And double votes?

Nai, in your post above you are doing exactly what you complain Pooky is doing, because YOU are appealing to emotion, and YOU are debasing Pooky - when you ought to know for a fact that Pooky's argument about how foolish it would be for scum to claim masons early in the game is taken straight from the Mafia Player Bible.

How could anyone not agree with that? It's been said on this site a million times, and it's common wisdom. Yes, I support Pooky. He's totally right.

Think about it.

I mean - two claimed cop abilities, plus one-shot cop investigations, plus role-pairs that can sorta confirm each other...

Forgive me for thinking some of the cop claims are phony.

The funny thing about the cop claims being piled on, is that none of them are ringing alarm bells as possible counterclaims.

[DrippingGoofball]

Z'I repeat.

***ONE full-time cop (Glork)
***ONE one-shot cop investigation gift (Miztef)
***ONE one-shot cop investigation (Nai)
***SEVERAL role-pairs that can sorta confirm each other...

Forgive me for thinking some of the cop claims are phony.

By the third night, that's a potential of 5 investigations!!! And a whole buncha quasi-masons!

Someone is making up some roles, and I am sorry, the most suspect role claim of all is Glork's Flying Pumpkin Shooting Lasers and Sending Messages at Night with Truth Serum and Therefore a Cop too.

And Miztef's timely "investigation" of Glork coming up innocent.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What I find interesting about my detractors is that not one of them can produce a SINGLE GAME where mafia fakeclaimed masons on day one on this site.(let alone fakeclaimed masons and gotten away with it)

Have fun attacking my character and avoid addressing my logic.

This conversation has everything to do with the game, it deals with the strategical choices available to the town at the beginning of the game and it shows quite clearly that the town would have to have an absolutely ludicrious advantage for Glork's claimed investigation to be correct.

I find it absolutely hilarious that our claimed cop is now willing to lynch a person he doesn't have a "guilty" result on at LyLo.

Kinda makes you wonder if he has a guilty result enh?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Un1@#$ING believable, burden of proof on you?

How the hell am I supposed to back up the "Mafia never fakeclaim masons on day 1"?

Should I go through every game in the entire mafiascum library and wave the results in your face? even if I did would you take my word that they've never done such a move?

I can tell you that in my mafia playing history of three years, I have never once seen scum go for the fake mason claim on day one on this site and that includes games I haven't played in.

I even looked up a link of a different mini game where Glork decides NOT to lynch the day one mason claimers who looked scummy as hell.

Now you can go "I don't care if the mafia never bloody fakeclaim mason on day 1" even though there is EXTENSIVE history against it as well as the obvious logical reasons as to why they wouldn't do it. But if you're going to take that route, I demand you at least provide one sample of such behaviour. To choose to stick your head in the sand and attack me regardless of these facts would be nothing less than gross negiligence on your part.

[DrippingGoofball]

Zeriously, how many scum would you need to balance a game with this many investigations? I'd say at least 9 or maybe even 10. Enough scum to be at LYLO on Day 1, minimum.

Yet there is no evidence of a serial killer (if you believe theo's claim; he might in fact be the SK, if there is one) but the SK works against the town and the mafia. And then you'd hope for balance's sake that he's investigation immune. No evidence of a cult, either, but it cannot be ruled out.

Occam's rasor - the simples explanation - is that Glork's claim is bogus, as is Miztef's. I have trouble believing that Nai might be scum, because such an overpowered town can't be matched against a scum that can be lynched with 3 votes. So I would believe Nai's one-shot investigation, but I have no faith in the other Glork of Miztef.