Open 30 - Fire and Ice (Game Over!) - before 470

[AutumnEvenings]

Well, I think I'd better

vote: xyzzy

because I had to copy/paste that from the list. I'll never remember how many xs and ys and what goes where and so we may as well just nip that problem in the bud.

[AutumnEvenings]

More /cows, not more cows.

Does this mean I'm not one of the cool kids?

Are you telling us you're a part of the Ice mafia? Thanks for making that easy. :p

Leaving my vote for the time being. And something about xyz's exchange with Vendagoat makes me think they could be scum buddies. Just vibes is all.

P.S. Mafiascum is being a royal pain in the ass.

[AutumnEvenings]

Mod

: I was the 2nd, not 3rd vote on XYZ. I've been assuming the votes are listed in chronological order. Is that not how it's going to work this game? Either way is fine--I'll just keep different notes.

[AutumnEvenings]

Sorry for not being very active lately--it'll improve.

Anyway. Not quite sure what to make of the XYZ lynch growing so fast. The thing is, even if he

is

scum, only one other person knows it. So I'm hesitant to clear him on that. But on the other hand, there's another scum group (assuming he's scum) out there with no more knowledge than the rest of us.

I don't see Mert's question as a trap--I think it's valid. There probably

is

scum on his wagon, regardless of his allignment. (I'd think, anyway. For the record, this is my first game ever with two scum groups, so I'm just kind of making assumptions that make sense to me, like that each scum group wants everyone not in their scum group dead, regardless of the other people's allignment.) I'd think Glork and PBug look the most suspicious. It's early yet but...eh.

Stewie, care to elaborate?

Also, I disagree with Glork...L-1 on page 2 in a game with two factions seems rather careless to me.

unvote: XYZ, vote: PBug

for jumping on the wagon at a suspicious time and not doing anything else at all.

[AutumnEvenings]

It's crap logic but on a dumb point. Not quite sure why you're making such a big deal of it.

[AutumnEvenings]

Hmm. I guess since the vote's on me, I might be a bit biased here, but what's the point of voting for someone (me) when the person who placed the reaction-seeking vote has already kind of said they've given it up?

Anyway, not much else to comment on, especially since PBuG hasn't been back since I voted him.

I'm going to be without internet from the 8th (tomorrow) to the 12th. Appologies in advance.

[AutumnEvenings]

Back--reading and making comments as I go. I know you all missed me desperately.

Are you giving up because you're scum?

Umm...was this to me? If so, re-read my post--I said

they

(Stewie) had basically given up looking for a reaction.

Ok so far we have two pairs of two going back and forth right now.
Glork and Sefar are both arguing and Xyz and Mert. So now the question is are these the two mafia groups stirring up trouble?

FOS: all four of you. Because so far it's all crap logic started from a bandwagon vote. Problem is, Xyz is still flying around all willy nilly like and that to me is very scummy. Second biggest scum trait is the constant barrage of accusations, thats Glork in my eyes.

I'm a bit hesitant to put another vote on XYZ as it would bring him -2 coupled that we still have a day or two to still talk I am going to hold off till sometime Tuesday to vote.

Till then I am keeping my eyes open. Oh and I guess since I have a random vote out I better cancel that till Tuesday. UNVOTE

Way to not commit to anything there...

FOS:Vendagoat

PBug has requested replacement -- LoudmouthLee replaces PBug, effective immediately!

Hmm. Well, I'll

unvote:LoudmouthLee

then, as part of my problem was the non-posting. Still don't like the bandwagon position, but we'll see.

vote: xyzzy

to get a wagon going quickly. This is not an indication of intent to lynch.

Who the hell puts someone at L-1 without intent to lynch? Bad, bad. I don't

care

that your from my home state.

Fos: MrBuddyLee

for lack of responsible playing.

I'm still a subscriber to the "Third vote on the bandwagon is scum" tell a-la-Jeep... <snip>

Ok, I've never played with Jeep and no offense to him but what's so magic about #3? I've found mid-to-late (but not last), which, coincidentally, is right where your previous incarnation's vote landed (#4) on XYZ.

By the way...any special reason your focusing on

my

wagon, as opposed to XYZ's? 'Cause even if you're scum, you have no way of knowing

my

allignment (pro-town, by the way :p)...so your focus on my wagon seems very odd.

Gah--interrupted. Back soon. Fucking deadline.

[AutumnEvenings]

ok, back.

I found it odd that she addressed Stewie's "reaction vote", yet completely ignored MBL's, and her Post 51, particularly the first paragraph, had a weird vibe to it.

Well, sorry, but I don't really know you (or most of the players) well enough to go into the reasons for my previous low activity. I feel bad about it, but I know it'll get better (my life, and therefore my ability to participate fully in this game), especially after July 25th. That's just all there is to it. Sorry for the vibes.

I didn't respond to MrBuddyLee's vote 'cause it was cast before Stewie placed the 3rd (total, 2nd currently on) vote. *shrugs* It looked like a random thing, as it was his first vote, and I don't freak out over a few votes. I asked Stewie to elaborate because he specifically unvoted to vote me, and I wondered if there was a reason.

Quite obviously, I was looking for a reaction myself, from Stewie and from AE. Stewie seems indifferent, and interestingly enough, so does AE herself, considering it was the 3rd vote on her.

Eh. It looked to me like you were voting me to get a reaction from Stewie. Didn't seem to have much to do with me at all. And it was the third but...first one was random, second was for a reaction, third was (from my point of view) done to test/goad/probe the 2nd voter. Nothing to be worried about, really, and nothing to defend against either. *shrugs* Really, you can't tell from my mafiascum history (this is the first game I've ever

began

as opposed to replaced into, and for some reason, I recieve slightly different reactions here than I'm used to), but I'm accustomed to having a handful of votes on my on Day One. Never been lynched on a Day One yet though.

Hmm. RE: the talk of buddying up. Am I missing something or would that just be a stupid idea all around? There

are

two teams, so even the mafia doesn't know all the mafia. Why risk linking themselves to someone?

I, also, have no idea how a wagon started on me. I think it's because no one understands my ludicrously awesome tactics.

Well, I voted you because of your name, and unvoted when it looked serious. But now I'm just confused by you. As in, I really can't follow a lot of your posts.

Actually, Unvote, Vote: Crub... there really isn't a heck of a lot to go on, but I think that CTD could serve to be useful one way or another, regardless of his alignment.

What the crap is that supposed to mean? "useful"? Sweetie, where I'm from, we

lynch

the scum. If you think he's evil, there's no reason I can see not to vote him.

However apart from acting strange, which I assume is normal for xyzzy, there was no real reason to be voting for him in the first place.

Actually, I think acting strange is a perfectly valid reason to vote someone, especially if the strangeness seems scummy. *shrugs*

Incidentally, I would find those who tack onto the bad attack more suspect than the bad attack itself.

You know...this looks much more like a scare tactic than anything. If you really believed that, why not wait a bit and see if anyone follows it, and

then

present an argument. That way you might actually catch scum, instead of scaring them off.

FoS: Glork

Coupled with the above, you're looking mighty suspicious.

Considering there can't be any crosskills, lynching scum is at an absolute premium.

Then...CTD should be useful regardless of his allignment how...?

vote: Glork

Perhaps you're strategically trying to push a lynch on me near deadline because you know it'd eliminate the strongest player in the game other than yourself. Sadly, it ain't gonna happen, sir. I suggest you go hunt for your mislynch elsewhere.

Gah. Can we not do the whole elitism thing? Especially as a defense? Thanks.

Also, while I'm talking to you, in your little list of people who need to contribute more 'cause at least one of them is scum, I notice you left off Mert, whom you called for a prod on a bit later. Any reason for ignoring

his

lack of posting? Or do you save that for people who are off camping? (ok, that last bit was a low blow but come on...you knew I was gone.)

I am the Doctor. Now unvote me, you fools, and go lynch actual scum.

Gah.

unvote: Glork

/ *sigh* You couldn't have done a little less with the "scummy so they don't nightkill me 'cause I'm lynchable" tactic? (That's given you the benefit of the doubt, dear.) I'll see if there's a counter, but none from me.

Ok, caught up. I need a minute to decide how to vote.

[AutumnEvenings]

Anyone want to lynch a goat?

Glork, sorry, but I think that's absolute crap. I've never played with CTD or anything, but if you think he's evil, you should try to get him lynched, plain and simple.

(And, as a side note, I really am starting to get annoyed at the mafiascum...umm...lack of tact? Good players can have off-games, and poor players can have absolutely correct suspicions. I'm frankly glad I have neither a reputation for being good nor for being a "village idiot" here. You guys as a whole need to start placing much more stock in current game actions. Not only will it improve your game, it'll improve the general ambiance of this site.)

Anyway. XYZ is still weird. MBL...also weird. I'm most suspicious of Vendagoat. Any chance of that happening?

[AutumnEvenings]

Then Glork, "regardless of his allignment" was a throw-away?

Ugh. Of MBL and XYZ, I'd rather lynch XYZ. I'll vote soon, if there's no rapid goat-shift to be had.

[AutumnEvenings]

Well, I'll take that as a no on the grilled goat.

vote: XYZ

. Who needs the end of the alphabet anyway?

(As I understand it, since MBL reached 4 first, he's still the lynch?)

[AutumnEvenings]

Well, with only 10 minutes, I don't see Grilled Goat on the menu. And if I unvote, we might risk a no-lynch, which is totally lame and non-productive.

*sigh*

Stupid deadline at such a bad time for me.

[AutumnEvenings]

All right.

So yeah, obviously Fire missed their kill. I don't know if Glork revealing who he healed would tell us anything though. *shrug* I'm still leaning towards believing him. That he didn't die is only slightly concerning--the mafia could be playing WIFOM or could have each thought the other would target him. He still hasn't been countered, so I'm not about to string him up.

Anyway, I think it would be best if we took out the other Fire killer, because then there would only be one death per night at most, which would give us more time to find the Ice killers.

Going off of yesterday, I

don't

think Lee is Fire. His moving off of XYZ is what allowed him to be lynched. I don't see why a partner would do that, since XYZ's lynch wasn't inevitible, plus he didn't actually vote him, so it doesn't feel like distancing.

I also don't really think MrBuddyLee is Fire, because of putting XYZ at L-1 in the way he did.

CTD, on the other hand, placed the first vote on XYZ during the random phase, but unvoted once he'd gotten a handful of votes and voted me instead, to give Stewie his reaction. (Which, yeah.) He left his vote there the rest of the time. It seems like they could be partners. So

FoS:CrashTextDummy

.

And then there's my old friend Vendagoat. I said early on that if XYZ were evil, Vendagoat felt like a likely partner, and it still feels that way to me. So

FoS:Vendagoat

as well.

And I have absolutely no read on nmeme. Please post something substantial, thanks.

[AutumnEvenings]

So let's see, you suspect me because of a "feeling" and because I am cautious. You even accuse me of not committing and carefully omit the votes I did make and the reasoning behind them.

I didn't call you overly cautious; I called your post non-commital. You pointed out that four people were having an argument and FoSed all four of them. That's non-commital because you didn't favor either side, instead choosing to treat all four of them equally. You said XYZ looked suspicious but that you were hesitant to vote. That's non-commital because it's just a "could be evil, could not be, not ready to vote."

Not to mention you quoted post 73 as saying I didn't commit to anything and yet in that post I unvoted my random vote, that was on you. You purposely drew attention to me for unvoting you. This strikes me as odd.

Did I? I quoted the post in which you unvoted because of the above reasons and called it non-commital. I didn't mention the unvote at all. Unvoting is fine--unvoting and not voting anyone and not weighing in definitively on any issue is non-commital and scummy.

So, by the way, is blatantly twisting people's posts. :p

So whats good for the gander is no good for the goose?

Not quite sure what this is in reference to. I removed my random vote on XYZ, yes. I didn't want a lynch on page 2 or whatever it was. I have no problem with people removing their random votes. My point about CTD was not that he removed his vote. Maybe I didn't spell it out right as I was a bit rushed last night.

CTD random voted XYZ in his first post. I've noticed that scum will random vote each other somewhat frequently. (I think it's because they don't know how to react to their partner--ignoring them completely is suspicious, so why not random vote? That sort of thing. Or light distancing. Anyway, I've just seen it enough, here and elsewhere, to notice it.) This is not a "scumtell" or anything, just something I've noticed. I always look back to see who voted scum right away and keep an extra eye on them.

Anyway, he unvoted his random vote, not because of anything to do with XYZ, but to give a reaction to a player who'd said they were seeking reactions. He then

left

his vote there for the rest of the day. I find

that

odd. It's not like he wanted me lynched (or it certainly didn't feel that way), but he didn't use his vote to do anything at all, including securing a deadline lynch.

Also there is some partnering. post 185 with an hour to go before deadline you start to get suspicious of me without rhyme or reason. You just look for others willing to swing in. Again I have to ask why? You certainly never gave a reason there, do you just vote at random? If thats the case then you got lucky.

Hmm. First, I'd been suspicious of you all along. Second, I was out of town and then tried to lynch you as soon as I got back. I try to get my top suspects lynched--it's just a thing I do.

And it wasn't random; it was because of you being so non-commital, especially in the post I quoted. Saying "these two lynches look equal to me, I'll vote for the jerk I guess" doesn't particularly do it for me, nor did any of your posts, especially the ones I mentioned. (The closest thing you came to committing on was your Glork vote, a third vote when he was getting heat from several people. So no, I wasn't impressed by that either, especially as I found your reasoning to be of the scummy sort, meaning you didn't just agree with others (as that looks suspicious) but instead pulled out some additional, but actually very weak, reason and used that as your justification.)

Sorry, but I'm just not buying what you're vending.

[AutumnEvenings]

Though...if LML is the last Fire mafia, I could see him having tried to kill Glork, failed, and now knowing Glork is Ice. But that's a thin reed upon which to hang a man, much less two.

Do you disagree with my point that LmL unvoted MrBuddyLee, who had reached the necessary votes first and thus would be the deadline lynch unless someone placed an additional vote on XYZ, which is what really allowed us to lynch XYZ (he did gain an additional vote, from Glork who said he was doing it pretty much solely to secure a lynch, but Glork was on MrBuddyLee, so I doubt he would have removed his vote had MrBuddyLee still been the leader)? And that that didn't really feel like a move a partner would make, because there was no

point

in doing it, as staying on MBL wouldn't look too suspicious even if he came up town, and he didn't win any good grace by actually voting XYZ?

It's quite possible LoudmouthLee is Ice mafia, but I really don't see him as being XYZ's surviving partner.

[AutumnEvenings]

Mneme, post something. Your looking more and more scummy to me every moment you don't post.

mFOS: goat

This, only six hours into the day, and nighttime hours to boot? Looks like a poorly executed calculated distancing strategy. Next time, give your scumpartner at least 24 hours before calling him out for not posting. (edit: it's actually parroting of AE, not sure if that changes things)

Well, no. What AE said was:

And I have absolutely no read on nmeme. Please post something substantial, thanks.

. That's entirely different from "you're looking more and more scummy to me every moment you don't post." One is a call for a post with content in order to help get a read, the other is a shoddy accusation based on complete lack of posting (which isn't even true. He's not a top poster, no, but he did replace in and does have more posts than others, such as Stewie).

However, Vendagoat echoing my sentiments (though ramping them up into an accusation) looks somewhat scummy to me, partly probably because of confirmation bias, but also because it's much easier for scum to play follow-the-town than to come up with original thoughts.

[AutumnEvenings]

***METAGAME TIME***

Finally,

FoS: AutumnEvenings

. She seems to have garnered much attention today. It fits into Glork's elephant puzzle that one of the scum is trying to get us to lynch AE. She may be Ice Mafia and was targeted last night. This also fits the fact that from what I have seen, AE is a fairly typical N1 kill. She's eloquent and dangerous. With the opening FoS's levvied on her, I believe that she could be ice mafia and the one of her earlier FoSers could be Fire Mafia. Just musing out loud here, but it's been noted in my handy-dandy notebook.

First, I've only gotten two FoS's: one from Goat (and tell me that's not OMGUS) and one from Crub. *shrug*

More importantly, I know your whole hypo is invalid since I'm not mafia. I'm intrigued that you think in a game with Glork (as a claimed doc), you, MBL, Mert (I read his sig, seems people think he's good), and CTD (whom Glork seems to think highly of), I would be the best Night One kill, especially given my lack of participation Day One, the fact that I garnered a handful of votes and am thus feeling more lynchable in this game than I have in any of my other mafiascum games (and I was only killed Night One in one of them...), and the fact that most of these players don't know me from Eve.

But since you suspect Glork for still being alive, I suppose it's only fair to do the same to me.

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm not claiming anything. (Well, I'm claiming not-mafia, but that's not a claim.)

And I

have

been suspicious of you all along. See my second post (#31), where I said that I thought you and XYZ were scumbuddies.

Who's ass do you think I'm kissing? All I was doing was rebutting LmL's argument that I was suspcious since I should have been killed Night One by pointing out that there were lots of other "should have been killed Night Ones" and that his reasoning was flawed. I don't see that as elitist.

But I do so love your OMGUS, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

(If you have an actual case against me, go ahead and present it. If not, keep making posts like the above and completely ignoring my responses to them, as you ignored my response to your previous post.)

[AutumnEvenings]

Oh and yah I forgot to mention this to AE, about yesterday's lynch.

Why did you attempt to get off the XYZ lynch at the last moment and switch to your "feeling" on me? Was that your subtle attempt at telling XYZ, no hard feelings or sorry I had to lynch yah buddy?

No. That's absurd. When I came back, there were maybe 4 hours till deadline. I could have very, very, very easily lynched MrBuddyLee. My vote was on LoudMouthLee, and I voted XYZ, tying him with MBL, who would have been the lynch had LmL not unvoted.

Can you really not see the difference between me saying to Lee: "I was not the big obvious nightkill because any of the following 5 players are more obvious" and "buttering up" and "name dropping"?

My case on you, again, is:
1) You look like a partner to XYZ
2) You were very non-commital yesterday (especially concerning XYZ)
and now
3) You're blatantly twisting my words, ignoring my points, and engaging in a massive OMGUS attack.
4) That means that you're

not

actually engaged in any scum-hunting.

(what does "blow through like the wind" mean anyway?)

[AutumnEvenings]

All right. First, so that Vendagoat stops saying the entire case on him is based on "feeling", allow me to articulate why his Day One play made him look like partners with XYZ.

Here's a chronology:
1) Crub random-votes XYZ (#11)
2) I random-vote XYZ (#18)
3) Mert "bandwagon" votes XYZ (#19)
4) Vendagoat says "wow, lots ot hate for XYZ" (#23)
5) XYZ (joke?) FoS's Vendagoat (#24)

That was the initial thing. It felt like Vendagoat was trying to derail the bandwagon in a subtle way (his post is a joke, check it out), and XYZ responded to that by FoSing him because goats are bad, which looks like a partner saying "don't be stupid".

Vendagoat then makes lots of "oh, he might be scum, might not be" non-commital comments (often accompanied by FoS's) regarding XYZ (e.g. #42, #62, #73, #165).

And then it comes down to deadline, and it looks like it's between XYZ and MBL. Venadagoat votes MBL. Now, I don't know about you guys, but when I FoS someone three times, and someone else zero times, I'd probably vote for the person I'd found suspicious, not the one with "the condescending attitude". But then again, I'm not Vendagoat and I'm not XYZ's scum-buddy.
---------------
So that points to partnership yesterday. In addition, Vendagoat has acted scumy indepedently of XYZ. He's been wishy-washy, extremely OMGUS-y, hasn't made actual attempts at scumhunting, prefering to follow the crowd or else OMGUS, doesn't respond to (what I happen to think are) valid responses to his posts (see, e.g. my post 221), distorts posts and arguments, accused me of claiming something when I was doing no such thing (and of course didn't respond when I pointed that out), and is now trying to play the newbie card despite having more than 3 months' experience at mafiascum.

vote: Vendagoat

-----------------
Now, about the other stuff.

Mert, what exactly were you trying to imply with your post 251, particularly

What intrigues me about this is the fact that AE seemed to post yesterday against Goat almost with a knowledge of how things would look today, thus validating her statements from yesterday.

All I did was look at the game thread and see what looked like partner interactions. I never predicted that Venda would go all illogical and OMGUS-y, just that if XYZ was scum, Venda seemed a likely partner. I really don't understand why you'd even bother saying something like this, given the game set-up, which 100% preculdes anyone from knowing more than one scum. If you have something bad to say about me, base it in reality.

Also, according to your next post, if Vendagoat turns up Fire, that makes me a good candidate for being Ice. Why is that? Because I suspect him and he's OMGUSing me? I get that you're piggybacking LmL's idea that I was the target and didn't die and thus am mafia, but...do you

see

how many assumptions that is based on, and how many facts it ignores?

And Stewie, I thought that post by MBL was a joke.

But, for the record, I

do

think Glork is the doctor. He hasn't been counterclaimed. There's no cop in this game. The best the doc can hope for is to sucessfully block a kill (which he may have already done) on a townie. That's nothing to scoff, but if scum is falsely claiming your role, by countering, you'd give us scum. Trading the doc for a scum is a very good deal, in my opinion, especially in a game like this where the doc can't give us CIs (since he doesn't know if he's the one who prevented the kill anyway). I don't like the people who are still suspecting Glork.

[AutumnEvenings]

I'll address the other stuff in a seperate post, because I have something I really,

really

want to say right now.

Most of you don't know me. For the record, I usually am mildly amused by adhom attacks leveled towards me in games (and I also take them as a sign that the player knows their argument is complete trash anyway). And it takes a lot for anything said or done in-game to get to me on a personal level.

However

, one thing that is very, very important to me is my reputation for being an extremely ethical player. So I found this quote by Vendagoat to be completely and entirely out of line:

On a personal note I'd love to know how she figured out the pairing in 31 posts. That just seems a bit odd to me.

That, coupled with a few things he said earlier, made me feel like I was being accused of cheating. I contacted Guardian with my concerns and told him to run all the IP checks on me and such, but he said that really wouldn't prove anything anyway. I also told him I'd be posting about this issue on the thread, as this is very important to me.

For the record, how I figured it out is

exactly

what I said on thread. I thought their early interactions looked scum-buddy-ish. I wasn't convinced of it, but thought if one was scum, the other had a high probability of being scum as well. I was much more suspicious of Vendagoat than I was of XYZ (despite him attempting to portray XYZ as the cause of his downfall) due to his independent behavior.

I am not an alt, and I have no other accounts on this board. I did not engage in any off-thread communication. I did nothing against either the letter or the spirit of the rules.

I simply read the thread.

[AutumnEvenings]

Now, back to the game.

I know for a fact that I am not mafia. So there are two possibilities:

1)

Vendagoat actually did try to kill me Night One, but I was protected by the doctor.

or

2)

Vendagoat tried to target someone else

, and that kill failed because that person was mafia or was protected by Glork.

Here's what we know:
a) The Fire mafia missed their kill
b) Mafia members are nightkill immune
c) Glork was the doctor, and must have protected

someone

. That person would also have been immune to the kill.
d) Vendagoat was Fire mafia. This is important, because it means he

does not have the best interests of the town in mind

.
e) Vendagoat claimed that he targetted me in the same post where he self-hammered, thus preventing anyone else from posting. This means, of course, that Glork could not tell us whether I was who he protected or not. (This also means that it was in Ice's best interest to kill Glork, as if he had lived, he would have claimed his heal, and for all they know, it very well could have been me, as I am not one of them. They needed the uncertainty, because it was fairly obvious that I'd receive a lot of attention today.)

I honestly don't see the point of self-hammering (at all, but especially if you have no remaining scum buddies you're trying to protect)

except

that it ends the day and thus all communication ceases. Clearly, Vendagoat wants me dead. I don't know if that's just because he's mad at me for fingering and lynching his team, or if it's because he's throwing in with the Ice team, suspects I'm town (because he missed a kill on someone other than me, or because...well, I

am

town, and aside from the fact that I didn't die (and, according to Vendagoat, have a shitty attitude), I haven't seen any arguments against me, and I clearly am engaged in critical thinking and have been successful with catching scum thus far), and wants me dead because he views me as a threat to the other mafia team as well. Given the nature of his play yesterday, I'm much more inclined to believe the former, though the latter could have something to do with it as well.

---------------

If anyone has any questions or concerns, go ahead and ask. I am pro-town, so I will not quietly let myself be lynched. But I also don't really want to spend all day defending myself. Right now, we're in an odd situation, as I don't believe voting records from Days One and Two will be of much use, since Ice had no more knowledge of the Fire mafia than we did. I feel like we're back to square one, and need to look for people whose behavior seems scummy in general, or for possible links between players. (I don't think nightkill spec will be of much use--everyone had a reason to kill Glork, since he was a claimed doc and possessed information which might have cleared me, and I read Sefer yesterday and didn't see anything insightful there either, but I suppose I could give it another look.)

Anyway, that's kind of it for now.

Also, if any of you want me replaced due to concerns like Vendagoat expressed, I won't take any issue with that, as the integrity of the game should come first (though I know I did nothing wrong).

[AutumnEvenings]

Also relevant is the likelihood that V lied in his final post. I see no incentive for him to lie. It's odd that Autumn wouldn't evaluate the likelihood of such a lie when forwarding it as a possibility.

*shrugs* Vendagoat wants me dead, for whatever reason. He either lied or told the truth. I have no way of knowing which it was, since they killed our doctor. Yesterday I didn't believe I was the missed kill because I didn't think I'd performed well enough to merit a kill, was somewhat lynchable, and wasn't a blank player (the sort that can die and leave no trace at all). Knowing now that Goat was mafia, I think the chances of him trying to kill me are higher, as I did suspect him. But I can't evaluate the likelihood of him lying, since for me it depends entirely on how likely Glork was to protect me, and I have no clue at all.

However, I can definitley see incentives for him to lie:
1) He wants me dead and figured others would buy into it. Saying he targeted me is a good way to accomplish that post-lynch. Other people (Lee and Mert, that I recall) had already speculated that I was the target, which could have given him the idea.
2) He wants me dead for vindictive reasons. I caught his team. He was spouting vile about me all of yesterday. Lynching me is revenge.
3) He wants me dead because he wants Ice to win. He might have additional information about Ice, since only he knows who he targeted (and could know whether that person was a likely doc protect or a likely mafia). Also, to be perfectly honest, wiping out Fire this early is

not

in the best interests of Ice, as it makes the game last longer meaning they have to avoid being lynched for more days. Yesterday morning, I made it clear that my intent was to eliminate Fire and went about doing so, so add that to his knowledge about his failed kill and he could have had strong reasons to believe I'm pro-town. Lynching me means another day that both Ice members survive.

I have a question for you, MrBuddyLee. What incentive do you see for him to have told the

truth

?

[AutumnEvenings]

Edit by way of post:

And also, MrBuddyLee, if he was telling the truth about targeting me, why did he claim to have targeted me

in the same post where he self-hammered

, thus denying Glork the opportunity to say who he'd protected?

[AutumnEvenings]

Gah. I should stop looking at this game for the day (real life day), but this:

While I normally don't appreciate a quicklynch, I think one's entirely reasonable here -- there's really nothing for the town to discuss, and much to gain.

is just so incredibly bad. First of all, I'm not mafia. But secondly, for crying out loud, discussion is good for the town. You think there's nothing to discuss? In your hypothetical world in which I am mafia, who is my partner? And how do you know? Not everyone has even posted yet. I'm personally

very

interested to see how everyone reacts to all of this, as there are two remaining killers and I'm not sure who they are.

Right now you, mneme, are making me suspicious, and I'm trying to seperate that from your attack on me (I don't like OMGUS, but I confess, it's really, really hard to be objective when people are attacking you, because you

know

the arguement is false, so it looks fabricated and awful and it's easy to assign scummy motives).

I'm going to clear my head and then re-read.

[AutumnEvenings]

All right, here are my thoughts on whom Glork might have protected going off of Day One:

AutumnEvenings

--likely, as he didn't seem to think I was scum
CrashTextDummie--uncertain, he did vote him but mainly because he was following LoudmouthLee, said CTD "could be useful regardless of allignment"

Crub

--unlikely, see post 76 and 140

Glork

--impossible, can't self-heal
LoudmouthLee (r. PBug)--I don't know. They argued a fair amount and Lee didn't buy his doc claim, but could be a likely kill. Really not sure.

Mert

--unlikely, see post 76.

mneme (r. Wizardcat)

--likely, as he didn't seem to think he was scum

MrBuddyLee

--very unlikely, as Glork nearly lynched him, and post 140

Sefer

--impossible, was killed

Stewie

--likely, as he didn't seem to think he was scum

Vendagoat

--very unlikely, as Glork was willing to switch over to lynch him at the end of the day.

xyzzy

--impossible, was lynched


I'll read his Day Two stuff in a bit, to see how he interacted with people, especially those I have on his "likely" list (me, mneme, Stewie)

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm going to have extremely limited acces between now and the 25th. Appologies.

[AutumnEvenings]

Well, since yesterday was so quick (and since, you know, Vendagoat

self-hammered

), Glork really didn't get a chance to say much yesterday.

His post 219 is a bit of a defense of me, though really it's just logic, so I can't firmly say he protected me.

His post 249 also looks kind of like I was who he protected--it was fairly obvious that he thought LoudmouthLee was scum, so asking him in particular what he thought of the people who suspected me could me him (Glork) trying to force LmL put firm opinions on the thread, which is something I love doing to people who I think are scum. I mean, I think that's what he's doing; the question just is was he using me as the...uh...not litmus, but, well, that's as close as I can come, because he thought I was town (since the kill had failed and he'd protected me) or just because it was something Lee had talked about. And I'm not sure. *sigh*

He has no interaction with mneme, or anyone else really, except for FoSing Mert (252) and asking him about me.

His only interaction with Stewie was in 262, where he asked him to definitely claim "not doc" (along with CTD). That was his last post.

So basically, Glork really didn't interact with anyone much at all yesterday, except LmL. Given that he only made 6 posts, this isn't much of a surprise.

Given that nothing about his Day One play leads me to believe he

didn't

protect me, and that he did seem kind of interested in me (without ever seeming to suspect me) on Day Two, I think it's actually very likely that Glork did indeed protect me Night One.

------------

And, on another note, I get that you guys want to lynch me (and I'd be lying if I said that didn't frustrate the hell out of me, since I feel I've been very helpful and especially since no one seems to be able/willing to give an actual

reason

, other than "well, known (lying and rather rude) scum claimed to have tried to kill you and killed himself before the doc could speak"), but don't you have anything at all to say or do? I mean, yesterday was a very fast day, and like it or not, I

will

come up town. We don't have much to go on as far as the Ice mafia goes, and with pretty much just everyone going "yep, lynch Autumn" and not talking about anything else, it's very easy for the scum to blend in.

I'm about half-way done with my re-read, and I'll post it hopefully sometime before Tuesday.

[AutumnEvenings]

All right, I've finished my re-read. First I want to address this:

I'm going to wait for the deadline to approach and see if another target comes up before voting AE.

That's nonsense. FIND one (a "target"? I'd rather it was an actual scum, but...) yourself instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you.

I really liked CTD's 321. Despite his weird voting behavior on Day One, I think he (and therefore Some Strange Flea) is most likely town. Crub and Mert both need to to more scum-hunting and take more initiative, but I think they're town as well.

FoS: Stewie

You barely contributed Day One, only had one post (and no vote) on Day Two, posted the second post today and also dropped a second vote on me in that post, and have one other post today (316) that's...not very substantial. You are severally under the radar and I feel like you're using the suspicions against me to make sure you stay that way today. I'm not convinced that you're scum, but you're not doing yourself any favors and I'm not getting any pro-town feelings from you either.

MrBuddyLee, I have conflicting feelings about. He says some things that seem very pro-town, but then does some things that are so odd (lots of jumping around, the whole "L-1 just to get things moving")...hard for me to say anything about him either way.

I've got to run, but I'll post about LmL and mneme when I get back. (I suspect them the most)

[AutumnEvenings]

AE, you post well, but I'm really hoping you're actually scum since you're easily the best lead we have, rather than Fool's Scum.

That said, if you -are- scum, 335 is a very good post; it's going to be pretty much impossible to separate out the WIFOM from that (if you're scum. If you're town, it's an interesting analysis, though one wonders why why mostly gave your analysis on those you -didn't- suspect the most.

I'm not scum though. I get, believe me, I

get

, that Vendagoat says he tried to kill me and I didn't die so I must be scum. I've tried to rebut that by saying (a) we have only his word he tried to kill me anyway, and (b) it seems extremely likely that Glork protected me. (Which is something I want to discuss with you, by the way...) That's as far as I can go with that. If someone,

any

one, would point to anything at all that actually seems suspicious or anything, maybe we could have some sort of dialogue. At this point, I'm scared that I'll just be the deadline "well, we need to lynch someone so..." lynch, which I really hate. (And for two reasons: (1) I'm not scum, so you'll be in lylo tomorrow, with hardly anything to go on since no one is doing anything at all today, and (2) those sorts of lynches are very difficult to analyse and thus make good hiding spots for the

actual

scum.)

(And the analysis was on everyone; I just didn't get enough time to post about you and LoudmouthLee, which I thought I made clear.)

-------------

Anyway, here's what I have to say about LoudmouthLee:
1) PBuG (LmL's previous incarnation) was the 5th vote on the page-two bandwagon on XYZ, with no reasoning really. I really didn't like that, which is why I voted him at the time. (That was the only thing he did before getting replaced, which is neither here nor there.)

2) As I said at the time, I really didn't like the way he attacked the people on my bandwagon (post 86). It just felt wrong. I know in this game that the mafia don't know (well, now they do, but they didn't :p) who the other mafia team is, so it would be extremely risky to try a "buddying up" tactic, as it could come back to bite you in the ass. But really...the wagon on me wasn't all that big or all that horrible, and I don't like how he zeroed in on it (especially since it wasn't the only wagon going on, but he completely neglected to address the XYZ wagon).

3) I really didn't like this quote of his:

@CtD: Talk me into voting Glork over you. I will be on a massive campaign to lynch one of the both of you. I'm feeling Stewie, too... but.. c'est la vie. I feel less strongly on him than the both of you.

(though I do like the way CTD responded, more "townie points" for CTD), because it's very...I mean, why do that? As CTD said, he didn't think Glork actually

was

scum, so why should he push for Glork's lynch? I don't like, basically, how LmL tried to make it seem like there were only two alternatives: Glork or CTD. It stifles discussion...and it could be trying to misdirect people. (And on a side note, the little comment about Stewie gives me scumbuddy vibes. That's the only link I saw between them really, so I'm not sure.)

4) Post 102 looks like a possible partnership with mneme. Again, not convinced, but since I find them both scummy, I thought it was worth pointing out.

5) I find it interesting that LoudmouthLee was the first one to start the "AE was probably the missed kill, so FoS her" thing (on Day Two). Comparing that with his behavior towards me today really confuses me. We all saw how he went after Glork, which (hey, I can metagame too :p) is much more what I'd suspect of him--forceful, not backing down, etc. But with me he just floats this idea out there yesterday, then votes for one of the people who votes me today, FoSes the other, and then calles me a "necessary lynch" but not necessarily today. While I certainly appreciate the not-voting-of-AE, it looks like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too.

6) Oh, and going back to yesterday, he uses this:

Scum is careful. I am agressive and trying in a reckless pursuit of the truth.

as a defense. I don't like this because...well, if he really believed that (WIFOM and all), then why FoS me at all yesterday? I dare you, Lee, to find someone who was

more

agressive than I was. Plus it's just a lousy defense, since...well, if it were that easy, mafia wouldn't be any fun, since we'd catch those cautious scum and never lynch those aggressive townies.

Ok, now I have a handful of questions for you, Lee:
a) You said this:

Venda voted AE out of the gate and never let up.

Do you think that's an accurate representation? Wouldn't it be better to say

I

started attacking him, he FoSed me (and also Glork, by the way), I kept attacking him, and he voted me? Because that's the way it read to me, so I don't understand why you're trying to portray it differently.

b) Yesterday, in post 275, you said you thought MrBuddyLee was Ice mafia. Do you still think that? Why or why not?

c) You said that you think Glork protected me, but were quick to point out that that doesn't make me innocent. I want to know if you think I'm innocent or scum, and why.

And with that, I'll give you the finger. :p

FoS: LoudmouthLee

(I'll post the mneme stuff in a seperate post, since this one's already fairly lengthy, and I want people to actually read both. )

[AutumnEvenings]

Ok, and here's what I have to say about mneme:

1) Neither WizardKat nore nmeme did anything much at all on Day One. (Although...Wizard did random-vote Lee and then mneme said he didn't see much substance to the Lee wagon (103).)

2) On Day Two, he says this: In 220 says

And in a way, the town's interest coincides with theirs -- if they found Ice, we do want to lynch them (Ice, that is), whereas if they targeted whoever Glork protected, we probably don't.

But today, he doesn't seem to care at all that I may have been protected, (indeed, see his first post:

vote: AE

There is, of course, a chance that Glork protected her. But odds are with us here, especially since there was a time for him to respond to speculation claiming he didn't protect her

) which seems very odd, given the whole "we probably don't" bit. I don't like that sort of reversal, especially since it leads to tunnel-vision on me.

3) He's said a few times that Glork "had time" to respond to the speculations on me. When, exactly, did he have time? I'm being dead serious here. Vendagoat did not say who he'd targeted until he self-hammered. Plus, I placed the second vote on Vendagoat on July 17th at 10:05 am. Vendagoat self-hammered on the same say, at 2:20 pm. Essentially, the entire lynch happened in the space of 4 hours, during which

Glork never even posted

. Day Two was exceedingly quick--I certainly wasn't expecting it to end so fast, and I highly doubt Glork was either. And, if he

had

wanted to speak, he could very easily have said "I did not protect AE" (which seems to be the hypothoses you're putting forth) without saying who he did protect, if he wanted to keep it a secret.

Basically, I feel like Glork didn't even get the

chance

to put the issue to rest, and I strongly dislike how you're trying to paint it as "yes he did and he chose not to say anything, which means he didn't protect you".

4) I really hate your post 317. I looked at those posts which you claim made it "obvious" that Vendagoat targeted me, and they sure as hell don't look that way to me. They just look like angry OMGUS. I also strongly dislike how you

never said anything about it

at the time. It looks like you're trying to re-write the past, frankly.

5) And then there's this: [quote="mneme, post 332,]Crub, I would wish AE dead regardless of what my alignment was.[/quote]Well, that's...not good. If you're town, you should wish the

scum

dead. I'm not scum and you've not pointed to a single thing that I've done that's suspcious. And you've not done anything that looks very town-ish, honestly, so "regardless of allignment" reads to me like "yeah, ok, I'm scum, but I still want her dead" (for which, it's worth noting, there's precedent. :p)

So, in conclusion: mneme hasn't actually done any scum-hunting, seems to be misrepresenting quite a few things, and is pushing hard for my lynch (while citing bogus statistics ) without bothering to even

pretend

to care that I might very well be town. I'm not at all impressed and found nothing pro-town about him in my read-through.

vote: nmeme

[AutumnEvenings]

a) Didn't Venda vote you out of the gate D2?
b) His lack of posts disturb me. He's a candidate for mafia.
c) The mafia consists of 2 of the 4 following players: AE, Mneme, Stewie, MBL.

a) No, he did not.
b) Hmm. Not to be rude, but aren't we

all

? Please be more specific. You also ignored the why.
c) Again, that doesn't answer my question, epsecially the why part.

(Also, you

are

responsible for his play, as you have the same role. It would be moronic to ignore that fact.)

I think the fact that I

voted

Glork on Day One during my catch-up post shows that I found him scummy. Please read my posts, thanks.

And what is (6) supposed to mean? Are you claiming I'm playing differently than I do as town? (Newbie 343 is the only completed game I've got, but I was town there, so have a gander.)

-------
mneme, Glork didn't kill me, that should be obvious. He might have

protected

me though, which is the point you're ignoring.

So you're now saying that Glork should have immediately responded to LmL's musings (and again, 26 hours isn't much time here at mafiascum, especially if you're trying to see reactions...) and

that

shows he didn't protect me? *sigh* You don't think him asking Lee, of whom he was

extremely

suspicious and actually

voting

, to flesh out his opinions maybe, just maybe, because he was trying to get a read on

Lee

and who his partners could be?

Whatever. I clearly can't win with you.

[AutumnEvenings]

[quote="nmeme"'m not sure what you think I said.[/quote]mneme, I think you said this:

glork shouldn't reveal his kill

...<snip> If I'd had more time twix 2 and 3,

I'd have asked Glork whether he'd killed you

. And I'm saying he didn't, obviously. Got killing on the mind?

I highly disagree with your interpretations of Glork's posts. If he wanted to make it clear that he didn't protect me, why didn't he FoS me? Or say anything about me

at all

, aside from just asking others,

whom he suspected

, to say more about it?

And by "can't win with you" I meant can't...you know, have a discussion with you, as you're hell-bent on calling me scum and nothing I say or do is going to change your mind. So I'm not sure why I'm even bothering.

-----------
Stewie, if your list matches Lee's except swapping him for you, you'll be delighted to know that the list was originally mine. :p (He called my "neutrals" suspcious, but called all the people pro-town that I called pro-town, and obviously swapped him for me.)

Lee, are you ever intending on answering CTD's question about why you no longer suspect him?

[AutumnEvenings]

*kicks the game*

Mert and SomeStrangeFlea, don't you have anything to say? In a game with two-week deadlines, it really sucks when you go 5 days without posting.

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm

really

not feeling scumvibes from AE. I think that we're gonna see an AE lynch though, simply because of the fact that we've spent so much of today discussing her that I don't think there's anywhere else the lynch can possibly go!

umm...really? Look, I think your previous incarnation was pro-town, which means you are too. So think about this for a minute: If you think someone's town, you

don't

want them lynched. I realize your post was slightly ambiguous and you never flat-out called me town, which fine. But if you're even considering it, that means you should look elsewhere. We still have a few (five?) days. Mneme has more votes than I do, and I'm still highly suspicious of LoudmouthLee. I'm not about to throw in the towel just yet, and I really wish you wouldn't just opt out of scum-hunting just because there's been a lot of discussion about me.

[AutumnEvenings]

*glares at Mert*

*sighs*

*glares at most everyone*

Come

on

guys. I really feel I've said all I can say in my defense, and I'm kind of done talking at cross-purposes with mneme, and I said what I had to say about LmL (who hasn't really responded, though I know he's been out of town), and...I can't respond to you guys' posts when you're not posting. Let's get this thing moving, please.

[AutumnEvenings]

vote: autumn evenings

I think she's the right choice because I find it unlikely that Glork protected her. Also, if we let her live and we are wrong, then come lylo it will drive us crazy, to the point that it will be hard for us to concentrate on going after scum.

*sigh* First, if you let me live, how would you know if it was wrong? (I mean, I can tell you it's not, but you don't believe me :p) And secondly, I'm having a hard time believing the whole "concentrate on going after scum" bit when the past two weeks have mainly consisted of me defending myself and making cases, and everyone else shrugging and going "yeah, but Vendagoat tried to kill you."

I'm just really annoyed, I guess. No one's shown me anything I've

done

that's suspicious and apparently none of my arguments or past actions are enough to outweigh the fact that I might have been targeted and might not have been protected by Glork. It's really frustrating, since I've put so much into this game.