Mini 496 - Wild West Mafia. Mod Abandoned

[Aimee]

Yeehaw!

Random vote: Kabenon

. Boo.

Kaykays...

1. Note about Adam. The fact is, there are simply too many variables at this point to trust this note, especially on Day 1. I will be curious to note whether or not notes come up on future days. I'm also less inclined to go after Adam after his response - I would expect if he was scum to take a more offensive stance against his attackers, or panic. He seemed more calm and collected.
2. Twomz's stance on not lynching. I really don't agree with you, Twomz. No lynching takes away all the points of scum hunting. If we don't try to get scum, we won't get scum. And even if we lose two town, we will have information - votes, bandwagons and actions, all of which can be used later to find scum. In the long-term, it is incredibly beneficial to lynch on Day 1.

[Aimee]

Tin Man, could you clarfiy the purpose of your SirWario vote?

Something is making me uneasy about Paradoxombie's FoS on Twomz. It seems like he is jumping on the bandwagon without saying much himself.

[Aimee]

I see some significance to the fact that Twomz was not bandwagoned for suggesting a No-Lynch. I'd think any decent scum would jump on that instantly. Although I suppose the fact that there wasn't much of a bandwagon to jump on might've contributed to scum's decision not to go for it, it is also possible that it's because Twomz is scum himself. He's said it himself that he's been lynched in other games for his pro-no-lynch stance where he was townie, what makes this game different? I think overall it's a pretty solid tell.
I think I'll upgrade my FoS, but I don't plan to vote on just this.

HoS: Twomz

Actually, if he does it in all games, it isn't a tell at all.

[Aimee]

I'm not sure how your suggestions point to Twomz being scum, Paradox.

[Aimee]

I'm not sure how your suggestions point to Twomz being scum, Paradox.

Because one thing that could reduce the possibility of any bandwagon on twomz is that no opportunistic scum want to go after him(i.e. if they were his buddy).

I don't really see how this makes a difference. Lots of people actually criticised Twomz, but no one really voted for it.

I don't think this points towards Twomz being scum at all. Remember, if Twomz is scum, there are still likely to be another 2 opportunistic scum (assuming there are 3 scum), compared to 3 opportunistic scum. It's not really that big a difference.

[Aimee]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that para... there is such a thing as "bussing" or "distancing." If it would help give a mafiaso an almost clear ride to the endgame... why not sacrifice one of your buddies? And if the lynch doesn't go through, and somehow the person who was attacked on Day 1 gets NKed and is shown as scum, the scum buddies would have a very nice "I told you so" to sit back on to help them stay off others scumdars.

But it's not likely.

Why not? Are you suggesting scum want to join every single thing they think could be a bandwagon? If so, that's a horribly stupid tactic for them.


I do agree that pdcakes' change of opinion about Adam is incredibly suspect, as is his now OMGUS suspicion of Twomz.

[Aimee]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that para... there is such a thing as "bussing" or "distancing." If it would help give a mafiaso an almost clear ride to the endgame... why not sacrifice one of your buddies? And if the lynch doesn't go through, and somehow the person who was attacked on Day 1 gets NKed and is shown as scum, the scum buddies would have a very nice "I told you so" to sit back on to help them stay off others scumdars.

But it's not likely.

Why not? Are you suggesting scum want to join every single thing they think could be a bandwagon? If so, that's a horribly stupid tactic for them.

When I'm scum I usually make some kind of effort to bandwagon other people more than my scumbuddies. I don't think that's so stupid and I think scum's relationship with their buddies is a more reliable tell than someone just changing their mind.

Nope.

Scum don't all play the same as you. To say, "oh I play scum like this, therefore the scum will be playing like this," is flawed. As for bandwagoning scumbuddies, they can do it for distancing, or to fit in, in case their scumbuddy is certain to be lynched.

(Also, we have no real way of telling if they were bussing or bandwagoning on Day 1, since no alignments or roles have been revealed.)

I do agree that pdcakes' change of opinion about Adam is incredibly suspect, as is his now OMGUS suspicion of Twomz.

Do you really think people changing their mind is automatically scummy? It happens. And you don't even have an explanation for why it would benefit scum to have the stance pd changed to, that is, you don't know if adam is actually town. Aditionally you guys make a big deal about OMGUS but, seriously, haven't you ever noticed that when someone is attacking you it looks alot worse to you than to everyone else. It practically always looks like their twisting words or warping what you said. Explanation: You know what you thought, but the person only knows what you wrote. And you guys attack him for bring it up for so long when he was jsut trying to explain himself to people who were directly questioning him. So there, I think your suspcion has an even worse foundation than mine, but because mine requires thought and explanation you guys dismiss it(*cough*SirWario*cough*).

It's not changing your mind. It's a bit stronger than that. His

entire

position changed from "we shouldn't use the note" to "if we're going to random lynch someone it should be Adam."

Changing stance is scummy, because in more seriously cases, they could flip flop in their lynch targets to save their scumbuddy from lynching. According to you, they would be able to use the "I was just changing my mind!" defense which is flawed.

In conclusion,

Fos: Twomz and Pdcakes

if only because there's nothing else happening.

Didn't you just spend an entire paragraph defending pdcakes' behaviour? Why are you therefore FoSing him?

[Aimee]

I'm not lurking. I haven't seen a subject that I feel strongly about to comment on. I believe the note on Adam is worthy of discussion but since we have 50% of the people on both sides of the fence with it, I'm comfortable looking for other possible lynches here in Day 1. You can rip me for not steering conversation but saying I'm lurking is completely stupid. I didn't realize that I was voted the leader of the town. I'll try and keep up my end than.

When did anyone say you had to steer conversation? CKD and others were quite clearly asking you to

contribute

to things. Who do you think is suspicious? Who don't you think is suspicious? etc. No one ever said you had to lead the town - not quite sure where you got that from.

[Aimee]

I'll definitely have more content up by tomorrow.

Most Suspicious
pdcakes
Adam the Amazing
Aimee

Least Suspicious
Adele
GodofWine
kabenon007

Reasons?

[Aimee]

Then things must have changed since I last played, because I have always seen and heard of top 3 scum lists to be at least a catalyst for conversation, and normally useful in finding connections between players and coming to a conclusion on who to vote for.

I assume that there was a game lost because scum knew who to target more accurately to help them in the endgame?

I agree with this. Personally I find it immensely helpful later (especially when a scum is dead) to analyse these suspicion lists, and definitely advocate us all doing them.

[Aimee]

In the other game I am in with him, his last post was yesterday.

[Aimee]

In the other game I am in with him, his last post was yesterday.

are you sure, according to his profile he posted on the 7th.

You're right.

(This is a confession that I'm a bit dim).

Aimee - Argued against Paradox's attack on me as bad logic. Has been contributing but has not moved from her random vote.

Oops.

unvote

I thought I'd done that earlier, but I've checked and obviously not.

[Aimee]

I will read over the weekend, aiming for saturday.

HI AIMEE <3

HI SIMENON!

<3

Also, Paradox, I don't see a major

disadvantage

in giving a scum-list. I mean, what is the problem with doing it.

[Aimee]

The main thing I like about it is the fact that it flat out forces every player to sit down and seriously question their thoughts about each player in the game. Maybe it's just me seeing myself in others, but I reckon people will err on the side of not doing something if they believe they are already doing enough (despite the fact the thing they

are

doing is the wrong thing), if you're with me. Being forced by a model like this to organize your thoughts and back up your opinions in a way you really feel like you can stand behind is a good thing, I think.

I agree with this.

It's also good because later you can connect people together due to their responses. It makes things clearer, which is always a benefit.

Well I assume the advantage is that we can catch scum in changing their suspicions, which is unhelpful since scum never really need to change their suspicions, while town do.

I unequivocally disagree with this. How can you say scum don't change their suspicions but town do. If it's that simple, then all we would need to do is ask for scum lists, and find out which ones had changed, and then we would have found the scum.

I don't like how one-dimensionally you assume Mafia to be.

Then it also helps scum choose their nightkill, find powerroles, and form effective bandwagons and mislynches.

This is absurd. You could quite as easily say it gives the town the

direction

to continue.

I'm at a loss conceptualising how it can be argued that scum can do all this from just a scum list.

Try again?

[Aimee]

Then it also helps scum choose their nightkill, find powerroles, and form effective bandwagons and mislynches.

This is absurd. You could quite as easily say it gives the town the

direction

to continue.

I'm at a loss conceptualising how it can be argued that scum can do all this from just a scum list.

Fair point, but what I was trying to say is that the advantages it gives the town are

greater

than the advantages it gives the scum. Do you agree with this?


this isnt all that absurd, if a town all puts together a scum list...one tactic could be NK for the person who does not pop up on the any (or many) of the lists...mafia can judge who the town thinks is most suspicious and leave them in the game.

Ok, I just read para's response and he says most of the samethings I just did.

all this being said, I dont mind scum lists, because I have a feeling it will get the town talking (defending/counter attacking)...and that is always good for us.

[Aimee]

Aimee: The last game I played with her when she attempted to lead a town with “most suspicious lists” she turned out to be scum. I haven’t seen enough from her to say she’s innocent, so in my mafia world you are guilty until proven innocent.

???

What game was that?

Also, last time I played with you (as town), there was much more "OMG attack lurkers!" going on. Obviously I can't make an effective meta without comparing it to a game you were scum in. Do you have a recently completed game where you were scum, ryan?

Also, I'll get my suspicion list up tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.

[Aimee]

I don't particularly like ryan's overreaction to CKD's pressure. He seems panicky.

[Aimee]

I'm going to have limited access for a while. Sorry for not getting my scum-list done - I've been sooo busy!

I'll get it done when I get back!

[Aimee]

Sorry guys. ;_;

I'm half here - but I will probably reply to everything today/tomorrow. Just as a heads up.

[Aimee]

Sorry I'm here! I'm going to do a massive PBPA, starting now.

[Aimee]

Out of the two leaders right now pdcakes to me is more likely scum.

Note to self - re-read later. I think this post could be important.

[Aimee]

Nothing to jump on is odd? What's the difference of saying that or "I've got nothing to say" aren't they the same? I disagree on your metagaming, ask anyone's who's played with me before the only difference I have in this game with my normal playstyle is how the game began (with the note) and since it seems to be a free pass to Day 2.

I disagree with vehemence; in all games I have previously played with you, you had been much more vocal, especially with lurkers, yet here you were very quiet at the beginning. I'm unsure about what that shows us, however.

PLEASE state where I've been scummy Thin_Man IF I haven't said anything?

Uh, that's the whole point.

I was never PUSHED to provide a list.

This is absurd.

I think the responsibility is on you to show that you weren't pushed. Show us that you gave that list on your own free will.

You're ripping me apart for my lack of contribution yet I can name at least 3 others who haven't done squat in this game.

Uh, just because others haven't done anything, doesn't mean it makes you any less suspicious. In fact, in my mind it makes you more suspicious since you are trying to attract suspicion on other players on a thing you yourself had done.

#2: Didn't strike me as especially panicky.

Why wasn't ryan's reaction to CKD's pressure panicky?

I don't see anything comment worthy in the ryan/ckd interchange.

You didn't consider it useful at all?

I hate Paradox's vote on Twomz because the game "is too slow".

Um... paradox, you said your reasoning for voting him was because things were too slow. That is not a reason so much as an excuse. A reason would be like, cuz I think he is scummy. Just a vote because things are slow is kinda random...

QFT.

vote adele

Don't know why this happened. Explain?

With the dealine in three days, we really need to get a game plan together. Something to expedite discussion. I really don't have any ideas though.

I ove the way you feel the need to pop in and go "yes we need a game plan!" But then say "yeah I have no ideas." Good job not contributing there.

I think Twomz, SirWario and Simenon (though Adam moreso) are all exceptionally likely to be town and I would not lynch them.

Why?

Also, why did you want to lynch Kabenon?

I personally would prefer a no lynch to a lynch of someone with 2 or 3 votes on them... unless there are less than 6 players left and we have a whole game of data to draw from.

Lynching is almost imperative today.

Furthermore, I see what you are doing. Talking about theory and neglecting discussion is scummy.

I hated Twomz's post 383 - it reeks of trying perhaps to save pdcakes by voting Paradox, especially since tat would cause a no lynch (and save pdcakes' butt). Possible scum partnership?

A useless player is a player who posts a lot, but is still a lurker imo.

You mean like SirWario?

I don't like Thin Man's vehement defense of Twomz (and his Paradox vote which pushes pdcakes ahead in the voting).

I'd rather lynch Twomz than Paradoxombie at this stage. The bottom line is that Twomz is discussing theory, and although is active, is ignoring the actual discussion. This IS scummy, since he is not scum hunting in any way.

Vote: Twomz

[Aimee]

Out of the two leaders right now pdcakes to me is more likely scum.

Note to self - re-read later. I think this post could be important.

Are you serious? You've been non-active the whole game and you select this post to re-read later? LOL, whatever Aimee, nice to have you back actually participating again (I guess)

Heh.

I can see how it would come out like that - but I wanted to make it clear in it's own post rather than stuck in the middle of a huge PBPA (don't you agree that's more sensible?)