Gistou (Over!)

[Tim]

/confirm

BB any particular reason you felt the need to voluntarily take yourself out of the can't-be-converted pool of people.

[Tim]

Wayward Thinker can be lynched D1

[Tim]

"Are you aware there is a cult in the game"
"But what does it mean?"

+

"Please give region"
"Why'd you do that bro"

[Tim]

I'm a non-human

Each faction, if possessing a non-human race, has a one-shot ability to recruit a

human

to their faction.

Emphasis "human"

. This ability will fail if more than one faction attempts this on the same target. This ability does not work on all humans. Regardless of success or failure, this ability is used up once activated. (The recruiter will be informed if they fail, but not the reason why.) In short, only the unluckiest of humans will get culled. It can happen, though, so be cautious!

[Tim]

But I'm no closer to understanding why, if you're town, you made someone else's chances of conversion that much more probable.

[Tim]

If you really are having trouble following the most basic facets of what I'm communicating to you, I'm just going to assume that you were not thinking like a townie with your non-human race and be done with you.

p-edit:

Yes

[Tim]

LMFAO wHo cAREAS HAHA Xd

I do. Well I did.

There's at least 3 factions that have a 1-shot recruiting ability, and the cult probably is multiple shot but I can't imagine them not being able to recruit humans.

Do Bulletproofs claim so their role becomes worthless? No, because that's stupid.

But by all means, continue to troll. Maybe more sods like Expedience will buy that

[Tim]

Okay, but how does that make BBMolla scum rather than just bad town?

Do you have any experience playing with BBmolla? He's not bad town. you can say maybe he's performed badly as town sometimes, but he isn't bad town. 2ndly, he has a carefree attitude as all alignments really. And he's done speculative plays before as scum before as well.

@Bbmolla: Perhaps you don't have the same kind of "how to play a role" sense as I do, but that kind of play really stretches my limits of credulity. In any case my metric for scumminess won't be defined as just that, so if your day play is satisfactory it will do a lot to help your claim

[Tim]

I should file an injunction against whoever is signing as Ice.

This is gonna be mostly Daniel until this weekend, but I can follow more after that.

-Iec

[Tim]

Titus your a weird player.

I appreciate your town read though we need to talk about how you did this if its ok with you

. I'm really interested to know.
~Ice

Frozen cannot fake that type of emotion as scum. Never seen it. People thought she did in NY 191 but nope.

Butting in to say this seems cut and dry. And after reading previous interactions, it's like a mountain was made out of a molehill and that's squarely on you House.

p-edit: If it reads like a justification, that your misinterpretation. Getting up in Titus' grill for "form" can't even be classified as nit picking; it's just not even worth mentioning at all. Unless for some reason you think that's scummy

[Tim]

skimming the rest, but can Luna brain? Is it ok if I just not take the time to argue with her over something she's clearly in the wrong with and can hardly articulate? If anyone knows how to read her, I'm happily defer to you, whoever you are.

But I'll leave her with the exercise of finding where I directly talked about probabilities or "percentages", to a level of distraction that wasn't accompanied by a significant opinion or rational discourse

[Tim]

On Tim, the scum read is mostly tonal based. Nothing they're saying is

technically

untrue, Molla likely did make a suboptimal play, but I think the aggression in Post 53 and Post 66 is slightly overwrought and they don't really feel appropriate as an immediate visceral reaction to Molla's claim. The fact that Antihero had the same feeling independently in his read-through gives me a little more confidence in my own intuition. (I'm also not a fan of the tone of Post 449, though I can't yet put my finger on exactly why.

How are those, Post 53 and Post 66, immediate visceral reactions? My actual immediate visceral reaction was the following:

/confirm

BB any particular reason you felt the need to voluntarily take yourself out of the can't-be-converted pool of people.

I would call the couple of posts that transpired between "context"

As for 449 I'm pretty sure my absolute disdain for luna which I was going to post crept in there, so maybe more invective is present than intended. But my priority at the time was to make that dialogue stop.

----

In that case against Expedience (which I ought to look over a couple more times) that first quote of me was indeed talking about Wayward Thinker and not BBm. Storm, despite being drunk when you wrote that, were you also drunk when you thought it up? (Asking to asses your state of mind at the time, not slighting the validity of the case).

I need to look over wayward thinker later posts.

I'm probably the nth caller at this point for Titus to explain why she thinks TTH is tryharding

Molla could you flesh out your reads a bit or are the scum reads of C+A and rb not more involved than "bad posts" gut reaction

[Tim]

Spoiler:

On Tim, the scum read is mostly tonal based. Nothing they're saying is

technically

untrue, Molla likely did make a suboptimal play, but I think the aggression in Post 53 and Post 66 is slightly overwrought and they don't really feel appropriate as an immediate visceral reaction to Molla's claim. The fact that Antihero had the same feeling independently in his read-through gives me a little more confidence in my own intuition. (I'm also not a fan of the tone of Post 449, though I can't yet put my finger on exactly why.

How are those, Post 53 and Post 66, immediate visceral reactions? My actual immediate visceral reaction was the following:

/confirm

BB any particular reason you felt the need to voluntarily take yourself out of the can't-be-converted pool of people.

I would call the couple of posts that transpired between "context"

As for 449 I'm pretty sure my absolute disdain for luna which I was going to post crept in there, so maybe more invective is present than intended. But my priority at the time was to make that dialogue stop.

----

In that case against Expedience (which I ought to look over a couple more times) that first quote of me was indeed talking about Wayward Thinker and not BBm. Storm, despite being drunk when you wrote that, were you also drunk when you thought it up? (Asking to asses your state of mind at the time, not slighting the validity of the case).

I need to look over wayward thinker later posts.

I'm probably the nth caller at this point for Titus to explain why she thinks TTH is tryharding

Molla could you flesh out your reads a bit or are the scum reads of C+A and rb not more involved than "bad posts" gut reaction

"Immediate" was bad word choice, but my point was that it feels overaggressive for the conversation taking place.
(This post does too, by the way.)

Again, it's not like those posts (or my last) took place in a vacuum. Perceiving BBm to be willfully ignorant and then dismissive frustrated me. The posts that came before that that were part of the same conversation weren't particularly overaggressive, were they? It just doesn't seem like you took into account BBm's own tone and manner of his posts or thought of an alternative answer for "hmm, why would Tim escalate his tone here?" besides "scummy!". For the sake of completion if I perceive you to be misrepresenting me, the tone of my next post will be prone to be heightened above neutral (and honestly, I restrained myself last post)

[Tim]

Ok Heartless I think I'm going to have to address you separately. Not least of all because one of you called me a shitlord and well don't expect me to just be ok with that after I did nothing to warrant it. Atm I assume it was TTH.

Anti at what point did you think the conversation should have ended. Which Molla post?

I'm still awaiting a proper reply to my gripes with TTH's tonal read.

[Tim]

This is where confusion starts to set in. If there is more than one town faction, then for what reason would they be a threat to each other, and why not just be one town all together, or can they only win when the other town factions are eliminated as well since there seems to be a "war" element to the game too?

i have a couple ideas from a game-design standpoint but i dont rly want to go into them right now

to add upon this, I have at least some confidence that this will be sorted by tomorrow one way or another. As you can see, this hasn't gone unnoticed

[Tim]

I'm in the middle of another post, but do you have any idea how Bullshit that sounds. Like, good lord. Everyone is responding to your atrocious reads lists. not your mysterious role. Like are the other wagoners also super scared of you too before you massacre them with your powerful role?

[Tim]

Vote: Wayward Thinker

After reading over that iso fully, I think my vote is best placed here. (well maybe not when A50 is right there)

After the early game posts from LQ which I think were scummy, there are even more gripes I have with the push on Rb and the way the nosferatu read was handled.

Post 492 develops it (along with less than reasonable town reads imo) while post 500 expands on it with a reason that wouldn't be considered scummy (it's town's job to push their opinions, how else are they going to convince people to lynch someone they think is scum?). But that's as far as it gets. Already in post 501 it slowly dissolves, and I don't see why it should at that point. Nosferatu's post there

does

look pretty gross at first blush. The exchange that can be read in full in post 538 between C+A and WT is bizarre to say the least, and to say more, it looks like a series of dodges on questions about the Nosferatu read that make absolutely 0 sense (Especially, "Unsure. I think it will be more telling with a few flips." ) but the Nosferatu read which is still supposedly being reevaluated doesn't resurface until post 928, in which there's no indication any additional thought was put into it.

----

As for the Rb push, firstly, the original reasons mentioned in post 629 for the vote are not intrinsically scummy. Those percentages are plenty obnoxious but not scummy. Sheeping people is par for the course of both alignments. But those reasons cease to hold value after TW retcons them into a pressure vote due to a behavior not exhibited by the known meta of either town!rb or scum!rb. I can just barely see that the natural pressure of being scum could make someone act out (but then again, rb didn't in his scum game with WT), but that's in a vacuum. As was pointed out, Rb was antagonizing Luna (so maybe the better question to ask was, "does rb fuck around with a specific player as scum?") but that's entirely lost on WT. That's pretty clear from post 918, which also happens to contain both "We scum read you" and "we voted for pressure" (and a misrep involving skepticism). That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works!

Meanwhile one of the reads in 928 amounts to an OMGUS against Salt Squad when their pushback was clearly justified

---

@Cephir: I'm going at my own pace, and I think a reasonable one for the course of 2 days time, but its impossible for me to tackle everything at once and I did leave what amounted to post-it notes to other issues that (one of which I am addressing in this post) I wanted to get to . I chose to focus on Heartless because at the time their only agreed scum read was me, and as far as scum reads go it was both weak and yet most of their focus up until then. I'm not convinced it came from an honest town perspective, and still want to continue the dialogue.

Speaking of, I'm still interested in TTH's response.

@pedit: It's not even necessarily a PGO claim, but yes, the claim was strictly null

[Tim]

Agreed. Strange times when I'm agreeing with Luna

[Tim]

Everyone in the neighborhood knows that we're all either the same faction, but there might be scum in it (i read this part late), what i slipped in was my ROLE.

Your faction is synonymous with your wincon. To clarify, did you mean that either everyone in your hood has the same exact wincon (part of the same faction) which is clearly not an individual humans one, or else members will have a different wincon that is necessarily a scum one?

[Tim]

We think we will go with a vote on rb for now.
VOTE: RB

This vote is placed for a twofold reason. The first is the constant on the percentages. Planning ahead and running the numbers pings me as scummy

The second is the general sheeping of opinions.

~Suz

p-edit, goodness gracious everyone is posting so fast.

VOTE: TWIE

You need to die if you can't think for yourself.

You can read me however you like, but don't call it a bad vote when it's not, considering the early stage of day one.

It clearly is a bad vote cuz your reason sucks.

Vote: Almost

I'll sheep that.

God damn it. Stop sheeping and start thinking.

Why is sheeping such a bad thing? Do you think Almost is Town?

VOTE: KuroiXHF

Uh-Huh.

[Tim]

I don't exactly care for Kuroi but WT's post voting him is both hypocritical and in general just feels like latching on to an easy target by throwing the kitchen sink at him (not that there's much to throw since Kuroi had basically 0 content)

[Tim]

Even if it's not the same head, I still just don't think that post was town trying to make a case.

Also @TTH:

post 763 is where we left off

[Tim]

Expedience, without mentioning meta, or the VC count, do you think WT's content has been town? And if so, why?

[Tim]

That reason was coupled with a meta reason. Scum can fake confidence easily enough, especially when voting for someone like Kuroi. It's also expected scum "do something". "doing something" isn't a good reason to townread anyone. Is that the extent of your townread? Is there nothing more specific about what they did that you found town?

[Tim]

Ok Expedience, I can certainly respect your reasoning (thought I completely disagree that it should be strong at all) but I do think at the very least your page 3 read means you are capable of judging WT by their content in them (although for that case, I believe incorrectly). I would challenge you to read and judge the content of WT by its implications within this game, unless you truly think WT's confidence level will always outweigh what WT actually says

[Tim]

It's nice to see Dram be less snarky and more game-y. My strongest town read now.

Meh, the wagons kinda feel like shit. Kuroi and WT both seem too fucking easy. Lemme see whose not really playing so I can see if they actually have some content to poke them about.

-Cerb

Your reservations on either of those wagons are unfounded. We've had 90 pages already; it's a given that people will wagon and swap votes more easily than not at this stage (yes, it's been like the 3rd real life day, but 90 pages is daunting). Secondly, it doesn't matter who is wagoned, because of multiball, even if the wagon is on scum, you'll still get plenty of the other scum that will jump on (and I estimate there's at least 10 in this game). These are basically the only reasons that anything "easy" would be distasteful. I know you supplement this with the quality and content of their play, but if it's that bad, who's to say that they just aren't the weakest of the scum team deservedly being wagoned (especially considering there's bound to be tons of scum)?

Spoiler: great Wt post that got things moving

I can't believe we found scum before the game even began...

Who did you find?

I can't believe - not as in "Oh boy, I can't believe I'm going to my first baseball game!" but more as in, I can't believe in a sincere way.

Super generic reasoning.

VOTE: copper

Going to bed now. Prepared to wake up to 20 pages more

Just votes with no explanation then leaves. Why do this?

well this is going.

someone tell me who to vote.

Wayward.

~Bee

vote: wayward

cool.

VOTE: TWIE

You need to die if you can't think for yourself.

Says they are voting someone for not thinking of their own reasons, but hasn't once provided their reasoning on anything this game.

Fucking Nahdia.

What does this accomplish?

You can read me however you like, but don't call it a bad vote when it's not, considering the early stage of day one.

It clearly is a bad vote cuz your reason sucks.

Vote: Almost

I'll sheep that.

God damn it. Stop sheeping and start thinking.

Why is sheeping such a bad thing? Do you think Almost is Town?

*still waiting on why I'm such a good lynch to No Retreat* Or maybe he already retreated. lol

How about cuz you've done shit all game?

Why are people voting? This game hasn't even started, have they?

I can't believe we found scum before the game even began...

I didn't much like either of these posts. I know we've talked a little about the second one but why in the world would you say that...like whats the point?

You also voted TWIE for sheeping but not Luna so that's p strange. Other than that you don't really have anything. So why should I not want your head on a pike?

You know I can't vote more than one person at once, right?

Hardy har har.

VOTE: KuroiXHF

Is this post the only reason you're town reading WT? Besides what value you are assigning to starting the wagon on Kuroi (which if I remember correctly he'd already been in people's sights), this post of theirs is objectively trashy, with many of the quips being fluff and those that aren't feel twisted. A naked vote would have been more convincing.

[Tim]

My only caveat to add is that I think Kuroi is a scum-lean, and have no qualms seeing him go.

While I also think copper is a fine vote, why not just vote WT? There's already a wagon on them and it seems to me you have an appreciable scum read on them. Is copper a stronger one, or did you just want to call more attention to him?

[Tim]

I guess that does explain him sitting on a fake read for 50 pages and then not doing much after. That'd be my gripe. Couldn't care less about the meta stuff that goes back and forth.

It would be nice if he articulated what was in that PT so the rest of the class could see

[Tim]

@Luna

If you think it's bad because you assume that would make people take a harder look at you/Stormblade that's both natural and not a particularly big deal. At this rate you're confusing half the town

[Tim]

The reason I did that ISO was to find out why WT are being scumread, since the divide between those townreading and scumreading the slot is quite deep. I looked at 1434 (which was cited as a major reason for the scumread) and the positions taken there are pretty reasonable. If the argument about that post was that it's too narrowly focused, that might be valid, but I don't buy into the notion that this post falls short of making points. I'm not too fond of the lack of followup on the points made there, but this game is already an excellent example of why lack of followup isn't AI by itself.

The more telling thing IMO is that the slot's overall focus is quite narrow and they seem to be actively avoiding the main controversies in the thread. This suggests trying to fly under the radar. So while the often-referenced 1434 isn't bad in its own right, the overall pattern is scummy.

So... are you going to vote them? Or are you still contemplating other options?

I actually think the opposite though. A narrow focus isn't of itself bad. It's difficult to make broad assessments in a 100 page game in 3 days. I certainly can't, but 1434 is just point-quote-point vomit, if you can stomach calling those "points"

[Tim]

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

I'm just going to steal this.

It's actually really concerning. I checked myself to see if there was ever a time Kuroi was mentioned by Celt and in what context. And there was never a single one. I suppose it could be possible that Kuroi being a scum read was one of those internal reads that you sort of hold to yourself, but even if so, Celt did not correct what looks like an inconsistency when it was directly pointed out. So yeah, it seems to me she muddled her (fake) reads

[Tim]

scum

Stormblade (Albert B. Rampage + Errantparabola + Nahdia)
Luna Fox

and everyone else is null or I don't remember anything they've done

Also I know this is from a while back, but no retreats list keeps popping up and I've realized that these two together here is sus to me if he was following the game so far.

[Tim]

I'd like to get off Kuroi's wild ride. (none of his posts have done anything to dissuade me from putting him as a scum-lean. None of them have accentuated it either)

I don't remember anything of worth happening in the last 15 pages besides the fact that certain people are applying town reads to Celt based off of 100% meta. I can only pray that people who vouch for others in this manner eat their hats when they get egg on face, which I suspect happens constantly. That kind of meta is cancerous, I really hope it hasn't metastasized on this site. [/minor rant]

So yeah where I'm at now is that I'd happily vote either Celt/WT. scum is scum after all

[Tim]

I feel like it's better not to

[Tim]

Don't have time to read all this before I go but we have more than 10 days. Vote Titus please while I am away. I hope to come back to a Titus lynch

I liked you better when your vote was on WT. The only support you'd see for Titus today is BBm and maybe Wake? I don't really even understand why Titus has garnered your ire.

I mean it does irk me that Titus is going to bat for WT off of a shitty post, but whatever.

[Tim]

Resignation and frustration are symptoms of being wagoned. They both are NAI to use the new lingo.

The reason I am making a big deal out of people town reading him is that if we lynch Kuroi today (which is perfectly acceptable to me), the next day I can see Dram or me not making it past tonight, and then the pressure against WT will naturally be lessened.

Also everything besides one post that Iec signed has been by me (ActionDan)

[Tim]

so you think WT didn't scumhunt at all so far? what were they doing then in your preview. what is a catching up?

Catching up is replying to things that happened pages ago, and trying to get reads out of those.
He did say works better in real time interactions.

He never referenced me in his catchups once and I had the most material that he could argue against (if he so chose)

[Tim]

Kuroi will always be available to be voted. I guarantee you that if the other half of the playerlist that isn't voting Kuroi decided to do so in short order for whatever reason (or none at all) nobody would blink an eye. That and Celt isn't exactly a vote that people would condemn necessarily

[Tim]

I mean the original premise when metadiving like that is completely stupid, so if for some reason he's town and truly thought it was going to be a slam dunk, it is incumbent on him to not do a half-ass job.

[Tim]

@stormblade

I'd like a VC again

[Tim]

And my point is that probably makes him not town

[Tim]

And my point is that probably makes him not town

I don't see how competency is related to alignment in any way, shape, or form. You'll have to spell this one out for me. I'm stupid.

-Nahdia

Because a town player would give more of a shit that their completely ridiculous premise held up. Competency has nothing to do with it when you cherrypick evidence

[Tim]

Ugh, I got interrupted on page 112 and have not been able to come back since.
TBH, I don't think I'll have time to do more than skim the intervening 30 pages. Which may be what some people are doing already...

Frankly the last 30 pages have about ~0 new information.

[Tim]

I don't think as scum you challenge people to counter your metadive and then double down on it when they succeed.

Refuge in audacity? I dunno, but I actively try not guess scum motivations for strange behavior, only what town ones there could be.

[Tim]

Forward march!

UNVOTE: Wayward Thinker
VOTE: Kuroi

Sorry Dram but the inevitable is happening

p-edit: Ew

[Tim]

Besides the myriad times I've communicated my read of Kuroi, if it's a question of why I chose to cast this vote now, it's because the day needs to progress in a meaningful way, multiple people have basically finalized their decisions for the day, and I feel there's not much merit to be gained from staying on WT in the hopes everyone will switch back again. Much of this is implicit from both the 146 pages already in D1, and the current VC

[Tim]

I dunno what happened. Did Luna claim weird stuff about her faction? Is that what prompted "that".

Welcome to a 150 page D1 RachMarie. Enjoy!

Also PSA: Kuroi is still at L-2

[Tim]

Can you claim before BBm swoops in to hammer you.

[Tim]

Oh, LLD isn't actually on him atm.

[Tim]

Race checker will replace the location/nation choice which is what titus refers to as cop in this case. Race checker is stronger than either imo, it's a pseudo cop in it's own right. I'd say that with doctor it's very strong, but not straying from the realm of implausibility

[Tim]

yes

[Tim]

I mean, that is indeed the question we all must ask ourselves. It's possible though, there isn't anything that says that can't be the case.

[Tim]

I am a part of the INDIVIDUAL VAMPIRE FACTION.

Do you have the ability to recruit?

[Tim]

what gripes ASOIAF is that it's technically possible that the "50% control to win" part is suppressed in a scum flip. I honestly have my doubts if Mastin would be that cruel.

[Tim]

Salt, can you recruit?

p-edit: Luna's point about the cult might also be a thing that's true, that I didn't even think of before. Like they could be hiding as a faction that recruits but in a non-obvious way

[Tim]

Well the thing is that, if you can recruit, so could Kuroi, and that's kinda of amazing to be honest. It would seem overpowered to me. But maybe recruiting is super hard. I dunno.

[Tim]

Hi guys I'm here and...

Oh dear lord so many posts. I'm skimming still but,

What I've got is LLD is wulden, Cephir is nosferatu, in addition to Luna getting a result of Isolationist faction (w/e that is) on SS who had claimed Vampire, a bunch of couple claimed to be from the northern tribes, there's a "destroyer of worlds" in the game, and lots of people still can't tell a town factional wincon from a scum one.

I picked a hell of a game to break back into the mafia world.

I honestly am just twiddling my thumbs here and believe that WT/Celt are scummy and deserve death via their play which with the shenanigans going on is more solid to me than any of these revelations. I don't particularly think SS, Cephrir, and to a lesser extent LLD are that scummy.

[Tim]

Flavour/role bullshit aside, I want to lynch Wayward.

Let's assume Kuroi is Town, how fucking convenient that Kuroi was counter-wagoned and WT kept getting these, 'townreads' on Day 1.

Also Salt Squad is making sense to me, I don't wanna lynch them.

Also Dram's death strongly seems like a 100% scum kill and who was he pushing?

That's right! WT

[Tim]

Also, fuck you if you turn out to be scum Tim!

I swear I'm not on WT's corpse

[Tim]

I do a little. But like. It's beeboy.

I admit I have reservations. 1) isolationist could be cult-cult and Salt joked that he wanted to be recruited before, so maybe cult obliged. 2) a 2nd individual vampire with recruiting powers is strange to me. Maybe there are multiple individual non-human races that can do that though, 3) an alternative explanation for no one dying in Luna's PT is that the scum wants to remain as hidden as possible (if there is scum there)

But previous play was town enough to me that I just don't feel strongly about it

holy cuts: All the above was @cephrir

[Tim]

technically, half this town can, apparently

[Tim]

but that's super unlikely that you'd be able to pull it off. (well tbh, because of the billion human claims, which were ridiculously dumb to claim, maybe it got easier)

cut cut cut cut cut cut

[Tim]

Luna the answer is around 1/4. *shrugs*

[Tim]

Well from the rules,

This action counts for all role purposes

, as a visit and can be blocked/fail

so it's a good assumption that redirects affect it

[Tim]

My guess is that Stormblade doesn't like the undead. that'd be funny

[Tim]

or less all of the undead/nosferatu/wulden. They all seem pretty "new" individual or not

[Tim]

As I skim, my thoughts are aligned mostly with Rb/mathblade/Cephrir.

The LLD wagon is as reactionary as it gets. There are a couple players, Expedience and Albert's head of Stormblade, that aren't using "Wulden!" as their main reason but I either don't see an explanation for the scum read (albert) or don't see anything remotely convincing to empathize with that read (Expedience). I can understand where copper (and assume the other people not Albert/Expedience) are getting the 90% chance number but at the same time, there's hardly any mention of cephrir, who would be subject to that same scrutiny (especially from copper who has explicitly mentioned a group nosferatu faction, but even in a recent post has his sights on SS/RB after LLD and NOT cephrir). There's also no one that has come out and said they were either individual wulden/nosferatu which would be natural in this gamestate. That lends credence to both their claims.

So yeah, this LLD wagon is lazy af, half of everyone on it has barely said more than 2 words, and if they have said more, it's generally been about baseless speculation, or even provably wrong speculation.

Meanwhile, WT with every post becomes more and more obvious scum. Was the Counter-wagon to town that stalled out, and dramonic WT's #1 pusher is dead.

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that he's scum.

[Tim]

Guys We're getting into specious speculation again

[Tim]

I feel like this is all pretty obvious. I forgot if I mentioned it before but the likelihood of a "spy" in the undeads is high and it's just as high a chance Celt is that spy.

[Tim]

Sounds like a toxic atmosphere. I would probably cry to be honest if that was happening to me.

.......................
If nothing else, I would be interested to see how kling responds to pressure.
VOTE: Kling
Suz

This vote post is as scummy as it was yesterday.

@Celt. that 75% Probability of not being scum is only possible without priors. Those priors being evidence of scum and town play within your hood. And I've since yesterday thought you were scummy. Secondly you can claim there's a 50/50 split on wulden in your hood but practically a 5-man (at least) neighborhood that warns there may be scum in it... most of the time will have a scum in it. And in this game? Which is bastard, and pretty crazy, that's almost certainly the case

[Tim]

Salt Squad got also targeted by Stormblade (as they claim) and also got a correct check, meaning the likelyhood of bus drive is really small.

I missed this. But that only goes to show there isn't likely to be a deflector or busdriver (ofc the fact Luna got a correct N/L check on one of her hood mates makes redirector less likely as well).

atm my lynch order is WT->Celt, but if neither happens I might have to bite my tongue on Salt

[Tim]

What is the likelyhood of a framer?

It's about as likely as anything else. which is to say not. But there is a limitless list of bullshit in role-heavy games that are all individually unlikely but maybe one of them could have happened. etc.

[Tim]

I mean.... maybe SS thought they'd get lynched that way too. The difference in chance of lynch one way or the other is pretty small objectively. Who here would really believe an isolationist faction would be town? Even for this game, that's a big stretch.

SS's play yesterday was town. Today it's colored by the guilty and it doesn't strike a tone as either town or scum to me. Still meh on that lynch.

cuts. @RAM

[Tim]

It wasn't necessary to desecrate this public space with a flood of questions to mastin that could have been answered privately. That and people bemoaning the structure of the game. Grow up (please).

WT just isn't getting votes. Celt/(Bacde?) is though it seems (maybe marginally better there isn't a new VC), so in the interest of streamlining the day

VOTE: KlingonCelt

[Tim]

Im probably just getting tired, but im glad we're finally coming to a conclusion.

What is the conclusion?

I will literally vote for anyone.

Salt Squad, up 2 you whether you want to lay the vote down now or wait for an up to date VC.

Salt Squad is at L-1!

XD.

For the sake of a claim, I can supply the intent

[Tim]

VOTE: Salt Squad

Gotta get in on the party train

[Tim]

Actually maybe she's just cult and bussing cult like Cephrir was scum bussing scum. Point taken, DGB is townlean for me.

I won't speak to the other people you town read, but for DGB specifically I recommend a large amount of caution. That slot is dead null to me.

Take a good look at her voting record in this multiball 30-player game

Ok this day is shaping up to be more exciting than I first thought.

WT is still a scumbutt. Kudos to heartless for showing up and at least saying that much
LLD is a good lynch and probably scum but honestly if she's a scum role cop and not human, I don't see much harm in having one of the two vig target her.
Same goes for Bacde, but the fact that it seems to me that there's potential info that Nosferatu (the player) was caught killing luna (never mind something weird going on with Rachmarie) makes this flip a priority to inform night actions.

BUT

VOTE: WT

because I will continue to tear my hair out while he's alive

PEdit:

Rb look at RAM's ability carefully. First it says it targets a player specifically, meaning it's not a deflector I think. Secondly, it cannot both redirect "checks" and "roles", meaning, even if Nosferatu and Rach both targetted RAM and RAM's redirect worked as a deflector, it couldn't redirect both actions, since Rachmarie's was a check, and Nosferatu's was his "role".

That said, if what Bacde is saying is true, it's weird as hell for Nos to visit both ASOIAF and Luna. Like if it was protective, I'd understand, but Luna is dedsky.

[Tim]

Also even if Ice ASOIAF is cult now, we are definitely going to lynch Nos first in that case. Also if Nos was cult then I believe Luna's flip would have reflected that. So actually I don't think he is. No idea why he'd target her though... well, (unless he killed her)

Wake, there's a whole game just within your grasp! If people didn't think LLD was probably scum at this point or at least suspicious, I'd be surprised, but like... but like, There's lots of fun stuff happening all around us

[Tim]

In a 6 person hood, I don't think there'd be 2 wulden scum spying on them. That seems a bit much. Also a50 claimed northern tribes faction, so he's not there.

p-edit: It's possible. That said, since if both were scum, they'd be scum of the same faction (wulden), if he wanted to save Bcade, then that would make LLD town. Which is I think is less likely than not. If I was going to lynch any, I would lynch Bcade first though.

[Tim]

Do you have additional information other than what is already in this thread. If so that would influence me

[Tim]

And to clarify, all you need do is say so without extrapolating (@wake)

@Retreat, if a50 was in the hood I can't imagine all the town hood members not correcting obviously false information

[Tim]

Rach, what was your result on RAM? Was it nosferatu or not?

@Wake, I agree with the premise that that is probably Wulden's wincon. However, it is also possible to have an individual wulden faction. It is certainly more unlikely with Ceph's flip, but still possible. Was that your main concern? It's somewhat hard to guess at what you mean

[Tim]

I also see no reason for them to bullshit about Nosferatu's visits and I don't see why I'm wrong in suspecting Nosferatu as cult. Someone's gonna have to explain this to me real slow why this is a bad line of thinking.

Upon the death of a player, all of their original personal abilities will be revealed, along with any changes to their personal abilities since then. Their original faction, and if applicable any change in faction, will also be revealed. However, no factional abilities will be flipped.
This game will use my understanding of Natural Action Resolution (insert obligatory CFJ rant here)...with one major exception: recruits resolve before kills, not after.

Luna dead. And still only undead

[Tim]

And, with FIVE fucking kills, I'm pretty damned sure we have a Serial Killer, too. MEANING, the Towniest fucking player could be a Serial Killer!

I agree with this. even with 2 champ vig kills, 2 scum faction kills, that leaves one more.

[Tim]

then said nosterfuru

Ok, that means for Bcade's result to square with your's, Bcade would have had to have been redirected to RAM. If RAM did that, then I would imagine that Bcade should have got a result that RAM was a visit. So I find that Impossible. Impossible unless a third entity that wasn't RAM redirected either you or Bcade.

[Tim]

At this point, I'm most interested in Nosferatu to weigh in.

[Tim]

No one is accusing you of lying Rach, I don't think? Unsure what that post was about honestly. Your vote is fine to me

[Tim]

maybe ram redirected KC slot to himself

thats why he thinks he saw luna visitors but he saw rach visiting RAM

bacade is your result writen in a way your sure who was the one you were watching?

~Ice

Mastin explicitly said she wasn't doing that wrt that last question.

If RAM redirected KC/bcade to RAM then I think bcade should have seen RAM target RAM. That also means that in the absence of anyone else's role, Nosferatu killed RAM.

At the same time, Toog claimed to BodyGuard luna, but that didn't happen, while his location check went through (and Bcade didn't see it). So something else is up.

[Tim]

Probably expected us to lynch her. Or a vig to kill her, while they do something more important with their kill.

[Tim]

did you kill him or just visit him?

oh ok I can see now, I was redirected, my results don't match storm's flip.

Details please.

Bacde claimed you visited Luna with your night action. you aren't saying what you did with Storm. checked them? used a role on them?

[Tim]

They visited Cephrir: Cephrir didn't die, he found out his race was Nosferatu and wanted to lynch him.

I obviously am not at the peak of my comprehension right now, bc I missed:

(a) Nosferatu visiting Cephrir
(b) Cephrir "not" dying!

For both (a) & (b) to be true, one must assume they occured on N1. However, Nosferatu is said to have visited ASoIaF on N1, and now I'm not sure who claimed whom did what!

Bacde claimed Nos used his role on ASOIAF. Nos used his race check on Cephrir

[Tim]

Details please.

Bacde claimed you visited Luna with your night action. you aren't saying what you did with Storm. checked them? used a role on them?

[Tim]

oh nvm.

[Tim]

actually wait no. bacde didn't say you checked storm with the race check

[Tim]

VOTE: bacde

Based on the evidence I can't believe both you and nos. And with that little revelation, I think you're fucking up your claim.

[Tim]

The question is, in a world where bacde is telling the truth, how does he magically see Nosferatu. In other words, what fantastical power makes Nosferatu target RAM instead of his intended target of stormblade.

[Tim]

Now excuse me while I take some selfies and go to sleep. But before what looks like an inevitable LLD lynch, I want at least this to be resolved.

[Tim]

Sure, but like, how many coincidental redirects are there to go around.

It's far more likely at least one of them botched something in their claim, perhaps for a reason we do not yet know. I do not believe there were two redirects, and I especially don't think that if there was a redirect on Nos, that whoever did it (Assuming it works the same as RAM's) would choose to use the role portion and not the check portion.

[Tim]

As a heads up,

V/LA until Sunday

----

I'm also starting to wonder the legitness of an "actual" cult this game. My flavor stated that Wulden were cult, but they are obviously Mafiagroup vs. Isolationist Mafiagroup.

As the entire town has been telling you, you've been reading too much into your flavor. Wulden seem to be "a" cult, but not the game-relevant "cult" that's mentioned in the OP. They exist. And right about now, I'm starting to get very worried about them. There's been 3 nights, and no cultists have flipped.

2ndly, The undead result on Bacde is to be expected. It'd make sense if he was a spy working for the Wulden.

3rdly, the discrepancy from yesterday remains. I still do not think there are two redirectors that coincidently happened to both redirect Nosferatu and Bacde unto RAM.

Anyway, I have nothing immediate to share but yes PLEASE let WT actually post today and I'd also like so that the day doesn't end before the V/LA ends.

[Tim]

there is an innocent result on bacde

That is not an innocent result

[Tim]

Apologies for my long absence. It's been a sad/busy week.

I haven't really kept up in the thread since last I posted but atm it seems WT is getting traction, which I'm all for. In relation to that, I had a memory of earlier in the game where they posted this:

Just skimmed this days worth of material.

Why am I alive? Because Tim at least if not rb, Nosferatu, and Klingoncelt and we know Dram all do not have individual killing Town roles.

Why are the people dead who are dead? Why is Titus dead? IDK, could be Kling, but NKA is not really my thing. Why is Dram dead? IDK, maybe someone prolly thought they were Scum. Why is BB dead? Because they were obv Town.

And I realized this might easily be a non-human slip. (although being human, with a billion race cops plus 4 dead scum with nosferatu/wuldens race should not be treated in any way like a clear)

VOTE: WT

[Tim]

WAIT.

Hi.

Catching up is kinda a bitch. But I glazed over a couple things.

I don't have too many observations besides Exp/Wake/Rach/NR being obvious/confirmed town at this point (Unless Exp/Rach started out cult which I doubt).

After WT flips scum, which was pretty obvious since D1 imo via play, I'd probably cast a hard eye on heartless who has tried pretty much every tactic to not vote them whether it be providing association speculations or pithily suggesting alternatives (me!).

Considering the high number of race check claimers and scum/recruiting faction flips + claims, I don't doubt that Wulden probably has their own, so TWIE or Nosferatu could be that.

The people I wouldn't lynch are ASoIAF and RB. like ever. unless there's serious reason to believe that rb has been recruited.

Can WT die now?

[Tim]

@Rach

It was a rather busy/terrible week.

I actually did want to ask what you were thinking when Cephrir claimed to be Individual Nosferatu.

@ASoIAF

Take a look at Math's role pm. It makes sense for Nicholas to be in the game. Further more, considering Math flipped Dmitri and was the wulden Champion, it would make sense for Nicholas to be champ if he existed in the isolationist faction, but he isn't. Also Rach has been acting pretty town since D2.

I don't really care if you feel buddied, that's my read, and I've had that since D1. rb as well (And I believe I said that specifically before). Like If Mathblade hadn't died in the night I'd have probably thought she was town as well. Otherwise there's no "relation" between you and I don't really understand why you'd think I'd try to vaguely imply there was.

[Tim]

Don't get me wrong there are definitely things I would have done differently than what Rach has done so far, but I see no reason to fret about it

[Tim]

The only reason that Bacde might be town is that he's a claimed watcher with both scum teams flipping ninja with no one else claiming powers to track/watch or otherwise observe any type of visits.

Of course. Isolationists have flipped a tracker, so the watcher could be the counterpart on the wulden side. And the ninja is there to protect them from each other. I still lean scum on him

[Tim]

Did you try asking nicely?

[Tim]

VOTE: ASoIAF

I appreciate reaching out to me Expedience... in your own particular way, but I'm still not claiming just yet.

But ASoIAF actually needs to claim.

[Tim]

think about bacde's result N1

[Tim]

I meant the fact that Nos visited ASoIAF N1 with a night action (not a check). And looking at Nos's PM he only has passive personal abilities, which means it was a factional ability which implies he attempted to recruit ASoIAF night 1

[Tim]

they aren't

[Tim]

specifically the other vig

[Tim]

sorry to disappoint

[Tim]

I can't make myself believe that claim for a couple reasons.

Flavor wise, vampires are inhabitants of the north, undead typically are in the east, makes no sense that the offspring is in the west.

There are 7 races, including "other"; it doesn't make sense that mastin gives all the possibilities and fails to mention there could be a combination of two of them.

MOD: is it possible to have more than one attribute for race?

Essentially, that role seems to be a PGO type role (or some kind). Almost claimed PGO explicitly after D1 I think (D1 was "don't target me humans!"). I see very little attention directed his way over the last couple of days looking at ASoIAF's iso. I would have expected a lot more with two conflicting roles.

There doesn't seem to be any Nosferatu suspicion either specifically ever.

[Tim]

Tbh TWIE has a good chance to be a Wulden Race checker with the other candidate, Nosferatu, flipped cult leader.

[Tim]

it seems from flavor they are lovers I think (Rach and Exp)

Not actual lovers. Alexis prolly town because MB's pm confirms his existence I believe, and that he's the undead leader. and the undead faction is pretty town (except again possibly bacde).

That said

I go back to why is my gf pushing YOUR lynch if you are not scumz

is impossible to defend. He's pushing me too for example.

p-edit: @Almost
the flavor bit is definitely the least of the problems; it's possible it was made up, but I can see mastin writing something like that potentially. Undead-vampire mix doesn't exist, not as lycan/Nosferatu/Wulden. You'd literally need two races in the race slot to make that ok. I feel like that isn't a thing.

LLD is not a Wulden Race Checker. Look at the PM again

[Tim]

Mathblade was their champ.

We're looking for something like salt squad

[Tim]

Well, she was a ROLE COP (that's even stronger than a Race Cop in this game, as she got all of a player's abilities).

But anyway, I'm not going to argue much. I just need rb to give me what I had requested of him and will probably get to the bottom of this.

You could also speed it up if you opt to willingly volunteer to give out some of your own info.

I get the feeling I know what you may be desperate to say. (but let's not get there, today anyway)

I'll claim the following:
Race = human
Nation = ???
Location = Great Ridge

I'm not able to be culted

??? wincon

Also LLD being a role cop is strong (arguable that the strong man is actually stronger though), but it won't check race, which is kinda mandatory if that scum faction ever wanted to recruit successfully, I'd probably pigeonhole the role cop into the same slot as cephrir's tracker (unless that's actually bacde's counterpart). So they still probably have one, as every other recruiting faction has had one.

[Tim]

RB when did you have the theory again of ASoIAF acting culted and Nosferatu probably culting them? Was it D2/D3? I think I might have to read up again on it. I do kinda remember that happening at least

ASoIAF can you point out where he said you were town regardless of Nos?

@Almost. You sure we can't leave this in the dark? It's true I can't be culted, but it may or may not be because I'm a champion. I do not think the last champion needs to come to light just yet. If for some reason it really really helps you, sure, I can elaborate, but I don't see the point yet

[Tim]

@Almost

Well I'm not a human champion vig. If I was WT would indeed be dead long long ago.

west empire / Individual Human are the blanks. I can check to see if someone has been recruited into any faction. I checked heartless last night, thinking they could easily be isolationist. Everyone else I checked is dead (toog N1 + N3, Mathblade N2),

Also just throwing it out there that cult might have had an additional factional 1-shot kill of some kind. Mostly because I have to wonder about Nosferatu's choice of Night Action on N2. And also because that'd make sense to have.

These incessant posts are giving me a headache.

Anyway I hope that helps. Kinda wanted that to be kept under wraps though

[Tim]

Do you have a race check for us TWIE?

[Tim]

Back to you, Tim (sorry. This rb issue is getting in the way).

So, you're HUMAN (race) but you're a non-Human Faction Champ?? Don't you think that's a bit weird? I mean, if you started out as a Human then got recruited you could not be their Champion. If you started out AS the Champion, then you were/are not Human to begin with.

Dude please T_T

I'm not a champion of any sort. My faction is the Individual Human faction. My race is human.

I just happen to share a common trait of the human champions (and I guess ASoIAF's claim) of not being able to be recruited.

[Tim]

I am waiting for A50's reason for the claims tbh.

But RB I don't know whether it's the coffee at 1-2-3 am but you've got to settle down, take a breather, and suspend some of your disbelief. I'm still with you on the fact that ASoIAF is probably cult. I'm not that A50 is scum.

[Tim]

pending a reread.*

p-edit: I was briefly tempted to check him yet a third time last night tbh.

[Tim]

UNVOTE:

Ok then.

This is pretty all around amazing.

Uh I guess I'll just sit here and wait on Almost for whatever he was planning today

[Tim]

I'm going to play LoL and then probably take a long trip upstate.

[Tim]

My vote stays on Tim for the time being until someone -somehow- manages to give a better argument.

We're lynching Rb today based on the argument that he's probably recruited wulden via TWIE's N1 action claim plus his wulden race claim previous to that.

Aside from the obvious correct play, your reasons for voting me are incomprehensible, to put it mildly.

How do I know ASoIAF wasn't the third vig? I nation checked them

Why did I choose to hide my nation and wincon specifically? Because the identity of the third vig would have been made pretty clear, and I was at the time a candidate for that.

I was speaking pretty directly about this to you,

in particular

, here

Well, she was a ROLE COP (that's even stronger than a Race Cop in this game, as she got all of a player's abilities).

But anyway, I'm not going to argue much. I just need rb to give me what I had requested of him and will probably get to the bottom of this.

You could also speed it up if you opt to willingly volunteer to give out some of your own info.

I get the feeling I know what you may be desperate to say. (but let's not get there, today anyway)

@Almost. You sure we can't leave this in the dark? It's true I can't be culted, but it may or may not be because I'm a champion. I do not think the last champion needs to come to light just yet. If for some reason it really really helps you, sure, I can elaborate, but I don't see the point yet

The second you claimed to wholeheartedly believe ASoIAF's PGO(ish) claim, I was pretty sure my hunch was correct. And shock and awe, you've claimed it.

You also take Mathblade's fake claim and attempt to compare apples and oranges. Firstly, I'm pretty sure that Mastin's suggestions align with the specific flavor for Aires, not "what's safe to claim as a wulden" because secondly, there's no reason to lie about nation and location, they're easily checkable, and they really don't mean much. It also doesn't take a genius to figure out what sort of town flips we've had and what could be believable for race/location/nation/wincon (for example, why couldn't I just as easily "chosen" Titus's faction? Pretty sure that'd also make some sense)

All this tells me is that I ought to not have even attempted to put any kind of faith in you. I'll be remembering this for future games.

----

It's pretty rich that ASoIAF is placing me as cult here, but here's a more pertinent question. From your implication is it true that if I were to use a night action (not a check) on you tonight I wouldn't die (and presumably become a PGO)?

[Tim]

I'm not going to tell you anything about that ability

If I'm getting vigged then my passive will be on town. so have fun breaking it you scums!

Yes you may be cult cuase nos flip showed he is the only person in Other faction with fake claims and the way you claimed is like you made it up by yourself. talk about your flavor a bit more. can u?

that post is basically hey almost I'm disapointed at you. you bleieved ASOIAF and are voting me over rb... you suck brother ...

total absoloute trash game wise ; 100% appeasing and reapiting the way I defended and claimed in a lower level. I claimed something really really weird in your povs and explained it falvorwise/ role wise. he is just trying to say hey! I claimed individual human but I could claim X and Y if I was fake claiming.

Like yeah sure.

Well I'm going to target you tonight but if you don't want to confirm how your ability precisely works it isn't going to phase me. You've stipulated enough that I'm more or less sure of how it works (if it's real, and tbh I lean it was for N1 anyway).

That last bit is almost in the first quote is almost unintelligible, and it's difficult to parse what your point is, but there's a clause in the mechanics post about how all scum have the ability to request and be given fake claims, which is why flavor in general is so utterly worthless (also because Mastin has multiple times expressed that the game isn't broken via flavor). I simply skipped ahead to the pertinent information which is only race/nation/location/abilities/wincon. But since you insist on flavor, practically trying to tie your defense to Titus's role pm, I'll elaborate. Ruvias Severn, Individual Human Oracle, and despite the mystic title I'm a man of science, as well as a wanderer, acquiring learning and understanding from the different regions, starting with my base of knowledge from western libraries and science (hence the nation result), then to the north, and finally the east. The accrued knowledge allows me to help understand and pinpoint the makings of the supernatural, my contribution to the fight against the occult though I wield no sword.

Where in the world do you get appeasement out of that post? Also, I would never try to copy any kind of defense of yours, and it's rather hard to interpret that I did in any case, because I didn't rely on flavor that you've practically made a shrine to. I'm disappointed at him because his reasons for voting me are idiotic, especially since his "show me a better case" shit at the bottom of it was staring him in the face (wrt Rb). You can discredit a perfectly legitimate response to A50's suspicion all you want with "Total absolute trash game wise" but that doesn't make the reasons for his suspicion any less garbage. If he wanted to say "I don't believe Tim", he could have taken a page from Expedience and said so in less words.

---

Bacde watched himself. Fantastic. Though, that by itself honestly tells nothing about his alignment.

[Tim]

Almost, have you considered that, shocker, nosferatu could have been lying? There does not have to be wulden redirector. There wasn't a nosferatu rolecop. Also "hinting"? Read my claim again. For someone so interested in my lynch you sure seem not to be able read my posts

[Tim]

Actually just thinking about it again, unless bacde left a redirector out of his watch result, that redirector should have shown up along with Nos visiting RAM.

Anyway that avatar of almost is pretty appropriate considering the lengths he's going to to bury his head in the sand

[Tim]

Almost, I've already claimed a while ago, right when you insisted I full claim.

Ruvias Severn,
Individual Human Oracle,

race = human
nation = west
location = great ridge

abilities:
-active: Can determine if someone has been culted/recruited or not (that includes all factions, cult/scum/individual anything)
-passive: Can't be culted/recruited myself

wincon is Individual Human

----

Bacde claimed to see RAM visit RAM, so for this game at least, if RAM had been a PGOized, he could have conceivably killed himself (even though that's not what happened this game)

[Tim]

Why are you assuming proof of role = proof of alignment, especially for a probable cultist? I don't see you extending that same logic to bacde, so why do it for ASoIAF?

Neither twie, dgb, nor davesaz need to claim anything today really, when we're Lynching rb.

Speaking of, I'm pretty ok with the day ending. I don't think there's much more to say.

VOTE: Rb

[Tim]

What puts them in a lynchable position as you put it is that Nosferatu visited them N1. Anything else pales in comparison. The role confirmation makes what fit? There's nothing stopping them from being a PGOiszer that got culted. It especially makes sense to claim a non-human race to support that. As well as "champion". I am reading. I know you think bacde is scum. Nowhere did I not imply that in my previous post, so I posit it's your comprehension that you ought to check. Wouldn't be the first time today.

Just because you're a champion doesn't give you authority either. It's public knowledge what your role is, and it still does not matter that they haven't fully claimed yet when we aren't Lynching them.

I'm not rushing anything. I voted rb, not hammered him, and stated where I was at

[Tim]

Because the immediate priority would be to not get lynched. And if it were believable enough maybe it wouldn't get vigged. And even if they claimed human, a vig could still attempt a shot

[Tim]

k me trying to find all 4/5 scums:

these people are clear :
Almost50
No retreat
ASOIAF

this player is wulden : rb

so that is 8 player 4/3 scum:
DGB was cleared by TWIE Night 4 claimed day 5 so either TWIE and DGB are both

I just checked. all 3 fations had a race check. a vampire had race check. that makes me think all races had a seprate race checks and I think I know what TWIE is.

The people who are in center of suspicious in order : Tim (cause his claim is so fake >.>) , Exped , Dave , DGB , Rach , Wake , TWIE , Bacde

I still think something is not ok with rach - Wake claims . thats obviously a pair so if one is cult the other is as well. if one is wulden the other is as well. I request a check on one of them.

I am ok with lynching rb .

I have never seen such incredible sleuthing! My stars

[/s]

I'm going to go through the same motions:

These people are clear:
Almost
No Retreat
Tim
Expedience (named in Mathblade's PM, incorporated into the flavor, functions as a named townie)

this player is the wulden recruit: Rb

so that is 7 players with 2 wuldens, a possible isolationist recruit, and 3! potential cultists

DGB was race checked as human by TWIE night 3 claimed Day 4 so this tells me nothing.
Davesav was race checked as human by TWIE night 2 claimed Day 4 so this tells me nothing.

I've repeatedly said: all non-human factions other than individual undead / wuldens so far have had a race check, including vampires and nosferatu. That makes me think the most races are likely to have a race check especially wulden, and lycans (if there is any) and I think TWIE is one of these two.

The people who are suspicious are in approximate order are: ASoIAF (for cult), Bacde (for wulden), TWIE (for wulden or a lycan with wulden wincon [which would be salt squad's perfect counterpart]), DGB (for cult), Davesaz (for cult or potentially isolationist recruit).

The people who aren't suspicious are: Rach, Wake, because they aren't cult since Nos visited ASoIAF N1, Ram N2, but by D4 Wake and Rach were a pair so there wasn't time for Rach to be recruited and then for Wake to be recruited. Bacde is more likely to be a wulden than either of them and they are pretty much just town anyway as Rach is named from flavor from Mb's role as well.

I am ok with lynching Rb

---

[Tim]

I don't have the mental capacity to deconstruct 8067, but suffice it to say it's all over the place and more than half makes little sense

[Tim]

One more point.

If TWIE was individual lycan with the ability to recruit, why wouldn't he have recruited Rb N1. There also hasn't been a claim that he attempted to recruit any of the 3 people he checked as town for 3 nights in a row. So my doubts about that are high.

I do however, think it's entirely plausible that revealing Rb in this manner is calculated for cred.

[Tim]

those people being Rb, Davesaz, DGB in that order. "as town" should be "as human"*. it's difficult to decouple them still

[Tim]

@Tim:

You are doing some nice posting and all, but here's my problem. Following your propositions; are you telling me the Eastern Kingdom started with their Champion as the one and only member of their faction???

I mean, seriously. We had no Eastern Kingdom flips thus far, and we agree Bacde isn't Eastern (even by his own admission). I'm a Northerner, Rach is an individual Nosferatu and Wake was another Northerner who got recruited.

You're proposing TWIE to be an individual Lyacn (!!) and accepting Expedience to be an individual Undead. You're claiming Individual Human yourself.

ASoIaF, rb & DGB could not have started as Eastern Kingdom to begin with (given their nation/Location combinations), so that leaves davesaz as the one and only possible player who could've been originally an Easterm Kingdom faction member.

HOWEVER, even if we assume that this is the case, that would be just No Retreat and davesaz for the Eastern Kingdom, when we know the Northern Tribes started with 3 members.

Your claim to be an Individual Human who has West for Nation and Great Rifdge for location is highly suspicious bc we already had an Individual Human flipping with these details, and if your argument is "why can't there be two?" then I would play the card that also a WULDEN flipped with the same details, so "why can't there be two?" applies.

That is why I've been closely following the map of Nation/Location claims/flips and comparing them to faction claims/flips.

There doesn't seem to be any Western Empire Faction people yet besides Titus atm. Pending TWIE/Davesaz/DGB claims. If you are talking about nation results, there are eastern kingdom results from 3/4 flipped undead (storm blade was other). I'm having trouble discerning your point here.

I'm discrediting TWIE being an individual lycan actually. Lycan he may be, but definitely not individual. You are correct on the other two claims.

davesaz and TWIE* for possible eastern kingdom factions technically. For the purposes of counting, I have to challenge you to name 2 other western empire faction members besides Titus, and 2 other eastern kingdom faction members besides No retreat. For example, and honestly the only thing I can think of is: DGB + RB (before being recruited) = west, Davesaz + TWIE = east. I know you are trying to look at symmetries as much as possible but I don't think Mastin is going to do that 100% anyway, and I believe whatever else, the sheer amount of east kingdom undeads over represents that nation. I also think speculation about particular faction name / location / nation is much less useful than say, the implications of race atm, for scum hunting and outguessing the mod purposes anyway. I have the distinct impression that Mastin used a light touch to fill in those in line with the flavor she gave people. (whereas race is probably more in line with game balance). We won't really know for a while yet, but I think it's a distant secondary consideration

Which means I agree that it's just as likely from your POV that Individual Human claim with West for nation and Great Ridge for location is at least as likely as a Wulden with the same. I'm not trying to dismiss suspicion of me based on that; I don't mind you holding that opinion.

only one player was starting as western kingdom almost thats the wrong aproach. numbers mean nothing here

@Tim I see what your saying , yeah I guess that clears rach and wake and I feel better about you after this ,

now I'm not cult what can I do fix that impression on you? if you beleive I'm culted and so you think there are up to 6 scum atm not 5. the starting point of my claculation is based on me not being culted cuase I'm not.

I'm really concerned about how nights might go and stuff might happen

Honestly, likely not much. I also have a recruit check to use on you tonight which solves that concern. I only asked whether I'd die from the attempt in case I should instead use it on DGB/Davesaz. (I did however target you with a nation check last night, and I'm still here. Although it's possible I am now also a secret PGO tonight from that)

I'm also honestly not too concerned about nights and stuff. I'm pretty confident town has this game close to in the bag, no matter what happens

[Tim]

and your faction?

[Tim]

ASoIAF is not a cultist

[Tim]

Expedience probably only had results on people that died previous, or he wouldn't have kept quiet.

Uh.

VOTE: DBG

Cruise to victory

[Tim]

Or actually

VOTE: Bacde

It's possible the self-watch = lost ability and made that up.

Honestly it doesn't matter much.

[Tim]

UNVOTE:

What you said about your self-watch confirms nothing at all.

What you said just now about DGB is intriguing.

[Tim]

Anyone else find that clause about ambiguous threats in Expedience's role PM weird. Like so far, we haven't actually encountered one of those.

[Tim]

Bacde is more likely to be straight up wulden than culted. But actually I lean more towards TWIE for being wulden since I think Wulden needs a Race checker like all the other converting factions sans individual undead (who had a cop power). Also RB's lynch in retrospect seemed like he was eager to take a fall with the whole "I'm a wulden miller" spiel.

[Tim]

And before Almost comes in with LLD was a role cop... it's just not the same thing. You wouldn't leave one team to fumble in the dark for recruits

[Tim]

VOTE: TWIE

Dgb gets a reprieve. Much preemptive plays. Very wow.

[Tim]

I'm honestly pretty ok self voting if it's a 1v1. I don't believe in a 2nd redirector so as long as twie is shot after I die. I am ok with this trade.

[Tim]

Can you give a couple night actions? Like when did you neighborize. Targets before/after that etc.

[Tim]

ASOIAF just vote me. Let's get it over with.

NR didn't volunteer info about friendly neighbor or what have you / or if he got shot. He probably should have done that but it's not a big deal

Although about your PGO claim technically dgb remains alive even though she targeted NR who targeted you last night

[Tim]

You wulden believe how petty this conversation sounds

[Tim]

Wait vote me first ice

[Tim]

Can someone vote me.

I'm scum ok.


Do ittttt.

[Tim]

VOTE: Tim

gg

no re