Gistou (Over!)

[Luna Fox]

Gut tells me Scum either has it modified so they can blend in, or have discrepancies in their role PMs so that it looks and feels like they're part of the faction, and even have Faction PT access.

OR
They have safe fake claims as mastin has stated multiple times.

[copper223]

They likely have most of the above but RB's point that faction = wincon is what I've based all the game on, a lemma of that point is that race/nation/location which I consider imperfect proxies of faction are also relevant (we can argue about the % once this becomes accepted as a fact).

[Wake1]

Gut tells me Scum either has it modified so they can blend in, or have discrepancies in their role PMs so that it looks and feels like they're part of the faction, and even have Faction PT access.

OR
They have safe fake claims as mastin has stated multiple times.

I'm thinking fakeclaims with Faction PT access.

Meaning, zero Faction PT is safe.

Luna, is your PT a Faction PT or a random Neighborhood?

[Luna Fox]

How the town and scum wincons look like are clearly stated in the mechanics post, i dont think speculating at this point is gonna help us any... or at least any better than actual scumhunting.

[copper223]

It's a faction PT with potential Wulden infiltrators is how I understand it but I asked Mastin precisely that in a different way.

[rb]

Well you're welcome to vote WT with me Luna

[Wake1]

OK, now I'm feeling uncomfortable with Luna ignoring my question.

[copper223]

She asked me to answer cause we lambasted her for leaking too much of what was said in the PT.

[davesaz]

I can confirm there's only Undead or Wulden in the PT, but it's in a connotation that includes them as if they are the bad guys/infiltrators. We've all been thinking Wulden is possibly our enemy, I do disagree that necessarily ALL wulden are our enemies.

copper still scum, however.

P-Edit: nice find Ceph.

Have you considered the possibility that all of the PT are race=undead but one or more of them could be a different faction? I believe it goes something like "some you think are allies are actually enemies". And if there are any undead in a scum faction they would have fakeclaims, in particular it would follow that they must have the wincon available to fakeclaim.

It goes both ways, wulden doesn't necessarily imply scum, and undead doesn't necessarily imply town.

I think we should be playing this more like a mafia game, looking for scummy behavior.

pedit: And I got ninja'd on a faction could include multiple races. Oh well, story of this game.

So there's still scum in the hood, your point?

My point is that endlessly discussing the race / location / nation results is not scumhunting. It's useful for generating reactions, but the reaction should be the topic of discussion, not the results. Someone gets outed as xyz, do they flip out, lie about the results, acknowledge the truth, etc? And look at the person doing the outing, is it done to pursue a scumread, throw shade on the game, manipulate people?

In your hood, was anyone especially interested in who you were going to target? If there is a redirector this could lead to them.

Why would scum deliberately redirect you onto someone they know is scum? N1 the only scum they are certain about is themselves. The smart scum move is to let your action go through, because they want you to accidentally find another scum team. If they know who your target will be they may redirect to save a buddy, but your result is something that scum want. Logically your result is accurate because if there were scum in your hood they would want the accurate result. And if it's inaccurate then SS are probably scum anyway, and buddy of the spy.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that you are scum giving a false guilty, but it seems unlikely. You brought up redirection yourself, which would be an easy excuse if your target flips something other than what you reported. But I don't think you're scum from your other actions, because you are not playing guarded like I'd expect. As Math put it, no pants, which to me says likely town. (yes Math, some people are reading your posts). Even so, I never assume my read is accurate until the mod flips it.

Either way, logic says that SS is probably scum, unless you are.

[Luna Fox]

OK, now I'm feeling uncomfortable with Luna ignoring my question.

Feel however you like.
But I've been grilled hard for "outing hood info" and being called "bad player" for it when all i've done is in the good will that said info will help us, but since i'm being hated already i decided to take a vow of silence as to not give them more ammo to grill me with, it was a loaded question from my perspective.

[Luna Fox]

In your hood, was anyone especially interested in who you were going to target? If there is a redirector this could lead to them.

Not exactly, i did ask for suggestions and they gave some even tho i didnt follow any of the suggestions, i didnt want to make my target predictable.

[Wake1]

Luna how is your PT classified?

Is it a Faction PT or just a randomly named Neighborhood?

Luna, is your PT a Faction PT or a random Neighborhood?

PEDIT: So you answered on her behalf because you gave her grief for leaking too much of what was said?

...

Which Faction?

What you said lends credence to not all people being in a Faction PT are actually part of it, and don't necessarily have the same wincon.

[rb]

@davesaz: can we not discuss scum-strategy?

Like you're saying we should be scumhunting and that all this nation/location stuff is unhelpful, then you go and discuss scum strategy in the next paragraph :/

[Luna Fox]

You brought up redirection yourself

Not exactly, the mod made an announcement that made everyone believe the possibility of redirector i fake claimed strong willed for reactions to see if they'd eventually give up which would eliminate the redirection possibility but they saw through it.

[rb]

Luna how is your PT classified?

Is it a Faction PT or just a randomly named Neighborhood?

Luna, is your PT a Faction PT or a random Neighborhood?

PEDIT: So you answered on her behalf because you gave her grief for leaking too much of what was said?

...

Which Faction?

What you said lends credence to not all people being in a Faction PT are actually part of it, and don't necessarily have the same wincon.

I know what you're trying to say. But if they have different WinCons, they're not the same faction and it's not really a Faction PT, it's a neighbourhood. But I'm pretty sure they told us that themselves.

[copper223]

The difference is important.

[davesaz]

@davesaz: can we not discuss scum-strategy?

Like you're saying we should be scumhunting and that all this nation/location stuff is unhelpful, then you go and discuss scum strategy in the next paragraph :/

It's impossible to discuss the likelihood of a redirect, and therefore the accuracy of the result, without mentioning what someone with a scum motivation might want to do. Yes, I get what you're saying about not giving scum ideas, but we're ignoring a perfectly fine result because of really bad assumptions about when a redirect, if any, would be used.

[Luna Fox]

Fine then

Vote: SS

[rb]

@davesaz: can we not discuss scum-strategy?

Like you're saying we should be scumhunting and that all this nation/location stuff is unhelpful, then you go and discuss scum strategy in the next paragraph :/

It's impossible to discuss the likelihood of a redirect, and therefore the accuracy of the result, without mentioning what someone with a scum motivation might want to do. Yes, I get what you're saying about not giving scum ideas, but we're ignoring a perfectly fine result because of really bad assumptions about when a redirect, if any, would be used.

I figure you could just say, "I trust Luna's result and think a redirect has been unlikely" or something. But whatever, I feel like I'm turning into a detail-Nazi here. This game is very big and potentially confusing and I feel like many people are doing/thinking things without actually understanding. But I guess that's just condescending to keep hammering that point so whatever, I'll just stick to talking about who I think is or isn't scum from now on and leave all this shit to other people even though I can feel my eyeballs itching as I read all the misconceptions.

[rb]

Anyway I had the theory that Isolationist faction didn't really mean a separate thing from what Salt Squad really claimed but I'm starting to feel a redirect was indeed less possible. I wanted to believe in TownSquad but I'm losing faith. Sigh.

[Wake1]

The redirect issue should be resolved Day 2 or it'll continue throughout the game.

[Luna Fox]

The redirect issue should be resolved Day 2 or it'll continue throughout the game.

Thing is...
We wont know for sure until SS flips or i scan them again in a future undisclosed night (unless i die)

[RAM]

Luna, I thought you said on D1 that all members of your hood were guaranteed to have your same wincon, OR be a spy?

Was that the case, or were the races merely guaranteed, and you conflated race with wincon?

-Cerb

[Luna Fox]

It is still the case yes.
The thing is that the race thing is ALSO a thing.
It's kinda hard to explain and im pretty bad at paraphrasing >.<

[rb]

*eyeball twitch*