Gistou (Over!)

[Luna Fox]

Ok i have confirmed that a faction cop on Kuroi would give "Individual Vampire Faction"
I guess i am indeed stronger than a race cop.

Vote: SS

[Luna Fox]

There's no more doubt about it, either beeboy's lying or i was tampered with.

[Luna Fox]

Lynching me today is incredibly horrible town play.

Weren't you saying before:

I am starting to think I actually am the best lynch since the LLD wagon is crap and LLD can confirm herself the same way I can confirm myself tonight.
I am going to be on a computer in 1.5 hours where I can explain my reads and point to you guys who to lynch because you guys aren't lynching outside Luna's neighbourhood until the scum in there gets lynched because my town flip basically confirms scum in that hood and don't listen to anything that says otherwise.

[Luna Fox]

Luna don't do this to me.

I know i have a big heart and possibly a weakness for AtE.
But the matter of fact is that you're claiming something different from the result i obtained.

[Luna Fox]

Why didn't you investigate your own PT Luna?

Also i almost missed this (thanks A50 for quoting it).
The main reason is i was worried that if i scanned inside, i'd be tampered with with more likelyhood, and now that i think about i did state i was scanning outside the hood, since i was worried about a redirect i figured that everyone could benefit from the info in exchange to not scanning inside.

[Luna Fox]

since i was worried about a

redirect

roleblock/kill

EBWODP.

[Luna Fox]

I'm not a hundred percent sure you're right... do we have confirmation here? Because like I don't know how big my faction is but if you're correct and it's just me or me+1 then I might as well quit now.

Nah she misinterpreted the win condition.

[Luna Fox]

@Toog: Please vote SS unless you have strong reasons to believe my results were tampered with, then i suggest you start proposing who you think tampered with my results from my hood.

[Luna Fox]

I swore I thought SS was in Luna's hood...

I had a meta town read on LLD since I think she's lurky as fuck as town. I don't see why a independent wulden faction couldn't exist.

What did Luna get?

I got a result that SS is in the Isolationist Faction.
I have confirmation from the mod that this result doesnt equal "Individual Vampires Faction" that SS is claiming.

[Luna Fox]

Luna did you claim your role prior to night 1 or before night 1 ended?

The role i did, in fact i claimed it in the hood at the start of the pregame.
I never said who i was targeting to i did say i'd target someone outside of the hood to prevent any scum if any to try to stop me with a RB or kill.
There's also Klingoncelt, who claimed Watcher (post night) and even knowing i was claimed Faction Cop decided to not watch me.

[Luna Fox]

I mean there's either 2 options
1) beeboy's lying and my results werent messed up with.
2) beeboy's telling the truth, and my results got messed up with, which heavily points to at least 1 scum in the hood.

[Luna Fox]

There's also the thing that this is the first faction i hear that is not based off a Nation or a Race.

I mean you have the East something empire, the Northern whatchamacallit tribes, the Invidual Vampires, the Undead Risen Slaves.

All of these include one of these things, but not the faction i got (and my ability shows that "No Result" is an option, so no that doesnt mean a roleblock)

[Luna Fox]

Well, SS is an alright lynch. I think there's a good shot of him being truthful that he's a vampire but I also think the risk that he's cult or something is very really and that's dangerous af to let live.
-Nahdia

Well you did say that he's done this "I want 1 more day" thingamajig as scum before.

[Luna Fox]

Oh another thing.
Dont forget the fact that i scanned the N/L of someone in my hood since there was a mass claim of those in there.
I got a result that matched what they claimed.
So you gotta add in the chances of scum in there redirecting me + hitting someone with the same N/L, since redirect would redirect me both to the same target.

[Luna Fox]

You told me everyone in your hood shares the same nation/location

I dont remember saying that, and even if i did, this isnt true.

[Luna Fox]

Didn't someone say that Independent would give an isolationist result?

I already confirmed with the mod that this isn't the case.

[Luna Fox]

And even if you assume that everyone in the hood shares N/L i never said my free action was going inside the hood.

P-Edit: Mostly yes, but all of them no.

[Luna Fox]

And even if you assume that everyone in the hood shares N/L i never said my free action was going inside the hood.

P-Edit: Mostly yes, but all of them no.

There is only so much I can do to prove you wrong here and you have to believe me because Klingon is scummy af.

I'm just debating the likelyhood of redirect and to boot on a target that shares a N/L with who i was scanning.

Bus driver changes a lot of things and i dont know how i didnt realize that.

[Luna Fox]

And even if you assume that everyone in the hood shares N/L i never said my free action was going inside the hood.

P-Edit: Mostly yes, but all of them no.

There is only so much I can do to prove you wrong here and you have to believe me because Klingon is scummy af.

I'm just debating the likelyhood of redirect and to boot on a target that shares a N/L with who i was scanning.

Bus driver changes a lot of things and i dont know how i didnt realize that.

Unlikely, as I nation copped SS and they said their nation is what I got.
-Nahdia

Are you even reading my posts?

SS: What do you think are the chances that you were targeted by a bus driver?

[Luna Fox]

Ok, and redirect is also very unlikely to hit someone with the same nation as someone in my hood considering i mentioned targeting outside.

So im now on a 95% sure you're actually the result i got.

[Luna Fox]

Wait what location did your cop yield it is literally a 0% chance depending on your answer.

I didnt Location/Nation cop YOU, i used different targets, if i got redirected both of my scans would have been redirected to the same person.

Which means that i had to be very unlucky, to have been redirected to someone with the same nation as whoever i was scanning.

[Luna Fox]

Ok, and redirect is also very unlikely to hit someone with the same nation as someone in my hood considering i mentioned targeting outside.

So im now on a 95% sure you're actually the result i got.

If you did mention on targeting outside in your PT I won't blame you for lynching me here anymore tbh.

I did

[Luna Fox]

Uh, what makes you say that?

read the hood, i put the info there, you can make your own decission.

[Luna Fox]

The only reason im not putting exactly what i did in here is because i dont want to go on outing people's location/nation for no reason, The information in here is good enough to make an informed decission.

[Luna Fox]

Maybe i should make a summary:

@everyone:

Salt Squad got targeted by me, returning Isolationist Faction. They are refusing being part of this faction.
I got mod confirmation that a scan on Kuroi would yield "Individual Vampires Faction"
We had a mass claim of nation/location on the hood.
My Nation/Location scan returned what my target claimed.
I claimed to be targeting outside of the hood, while in reality my faction cop was outside and the nation/location cop was inside.
Salt Squad got also targeted by Stormblade (as they claim) and also got a correct check, meaning the likelyhood of bus drive is really small.
With all this information the likelyhood of Redirection becomes smaller while not unlikely.

Im willing to go with Occam's Razor and say that i got that Faction, because that's their actual Faction.
But everyone is free to make their own informed decission based on this information.

[Luna Fox]

Luna, you're making a pretty major assumption. You're assuming that any redirection would effect ALL actions you take. No reason at all why a redirect couldn't be limited to role only, rather than the check and role. I mean there's no reason to think it isn't everything either, but the fact that you got the proper result on Stormblade doesn't have any relation to the likelihood of your check on SS being accurate.

It's not an assumption it's stated on the mechanics post!
And every game where a player targets 2 ppl redirects affect both actions.

[Luna Fox]

Really, I think people should judge based on SS' actual play

SS play = giving up after realizing spinning the redirect possibility is impossible.

[Luna Fox]

This action counts for all role purposes, as a visit and can be blocked/fail.

^
Means it can also be affected by redirects.

[Luna Fox]

Ya but why would he ever hang his defense on "spinning the redirect possibility? Seriously, someone make me understand why they feel that's a reasonable response from scum given that nobody has a firm grasp on what factions and win conditions are town?

You're scum, there's a guilty on you.
What's more likely
"OK IM SCUM, BYE, LYNCH ME"
"You got redirected im not scum"

[Luna Fox]

I'm not saying that town couldnt be saying that, because duh.
But saying scum wouldn't is a really big jump in logic, he pursued the redirect possibility with tooth and nail until after all the info was out and it was impossible for the redirect to have happened he gave up, then started to bring up framer.

[Luna Fox]

Like, if he's scum, and he KNOWS the town can't even figure out whether or not their own slots are town, why wouldn't he just say yes, I'm this faction, and it's a town faction??

Would you have believed it after all the flips we've seen?

[Luna Fox]

There's also the thing that this is the first faction i hear that is not based off a Nation or a Race.

I mean you have the East something empire, the Northern whatchamacallit tribes, the Invidual Vampires, the Undead Risen Slaves.

All of these include one of these things, but not the faction i got (and my ability shows that "No Result" is an option, so no that doesnt mean a roleblock)

[Luna Fox]

I mean it has all the notes to being either the major scum faction that wins with 50% of the votes or the cult.

[Luna Fox]

I mean, as i said, most factions have something in common and they all have been town.
This faction name doesnt have any commonality, from which i assume it can literally contain anything, which means it's more than likely the major scum faction or the cult.

[Luna Fox]

So I have a 1-shot ability that converts someone to an individual vampire (all non humans have this) thus would mean the person I converted can confirm me or at the very least you lynch me tomorrow and I confirm the person I converted.

Mate, you keep repeating this over and over and over again, so let me try to simplify the matter for you:

There are people in this game who believe you're scum. There are others who believe you are town. And there are some who don't know.

For you to be given a chance to convert someone means:

those ho believe you are town will still believe it. Those who believe you are scum will believe you AND your convert are scum still. Those who don't know will have TWO instead of one person to still be confused about.

The issue isn't whether you can convert someone or not. The issue is whether you are town or not.

For you to keep repeating yourself is hurtful. And for you to keep NOT reading the thread and going on with wrong assumptions that have been explicitly corrected and/or asking questions that have already been answered more than once doesn't help at all. You're not scum hunting. You're just concerned about your own survival for just another day (or NIGHT to be more precise). THAT is suspicious all and in itself.

^
Nominated for best post of the day.

[Luna Fox]

That wasnt accompanied by a vote ^_^;;
Are you mocking me?

[Luna Fox]

@Stormblade: I can confirm that my win condition is word for word identical to dram's but for some stupid reason I can't get confirmation that he counts towards my win condition's "survive" aspect which frankly pisses me off a lot.

Welcome to the world of figuring stuff out.
Tho i'd think yes anyway.
Which means that you'd also be part of the surviving aspect for us.

[Luna Fox]

i guess ill assume that but i'm kinda thinking about replacing out on the grounds that this isn't mafia if i don't know what my fucking objective is.

I've been there.

[Luna Fox]

Tho i guess you do have a point in that.
This game is really confusing in that sense.
But mastin put a lot of work into this, and im at least enjoying figuring everything out.

[Luna Fox]

Hey Mathblade, i got confirmation that i'd get "Individual Vampires Faction" result on Kuroi.
So Isolationist doesnt mean Individual.

[Luna Fox]

It's Bacde now

[Luna Fox]

Well i guess it'll be as soon as he posts.

[Luna Fox]

I

was

enjoying this game until Luna claimed a fake guilty on me.

you're making it as if im inventing a result on you.
It's not a fake guilty but a framed one if a redirector's involved.
A fake guilty is if i actually have no actual guilty and im making it up.

[Luna Fox]

*headdesks*

[Luna Fox]

Are you guys ignoring me or what.
SS is rejecting the result on him, this implies the result could be bad for him and he's lying. It's also possible i got redirected... albeit very low, but if i did then the 95% chance the culprit is in my hood, you guys need to take a stance on these 2 already.

[Luna Fox]

Luna question -- I can't look it up easily because phone posting. When was the first post (just the day is fine) that you claimed faction cop? Was it d2 with the result or did you claim/crumb before that?

I claimed that someone in my hood had a faction cop result of Isolationist on SS.
I didn't say it was me specifically just in case.
Later i claimed that the faction cop was Strong Willed, but he saw through my fake claim so the reaction test failed.

[Luna Fox]

I didnt crumb my role before, but i did claim in the hood in the pregame.
So if anyone would have known my exact role it would be there.
I also claimed that i was targeting outside of the hood, while i only used the faction cop outside of the hood and th- eh i think you better read this instead: 5488

[Luna Fox]

Could you please confirm that the four flips we've had so far aren't Scum?

<<< No, I cannot. This is where your own role PM, and the mechanics post, comes into play. The informed minority in this game is scum. The uninformed majority in this game is town. This, I can say, because it is universal to any mafia game. How it manifests is given in the mechanics post. >>>

So......

...we don't have confirmation on the flips being Town or Scum.

Do we... How can I trust my role PM when you say it's ambiguous?

I have not one concrete thing to work with. I don't know who my enemies are and I don't know who Town or Scum are.

Throw me a bone here. Please. I don't know how I'm supposed to solve this if I don't have at least a tiny, concrete thing to work with.

You just want everything given to you instead of doing the leg work?
Fine i'll do the leg work for you
All 4 flips were town
You're welcome

[Luna Fox]

Mastin, does any player know if their objective is to destroy a certain group?

I can't play this game if I'm not given anything to solve it.

We know there is at least a global scum group, we dont know their name, but it's highly likely this Isolationist faction result i found.
Like seriously, just because you gotta use your head a bit more in this game to figure things out.

[Luna Fox]

If they are town why their flipping from different factions? how they can win with eachother if they can? and which need to kill which?

Look at their win condition.
Look at the mechanics post.
Even if they are all dead, even if they are from different factions, as long as their threats are eliminated they win.
That sounds Town in my book.

[Luna Fox]

If you're complaining that you dont know what the threats to you are.
At the very least we know there is a global threat, as stated in the mechanics post they win when they are 50% of the living.
No one has flipped with a win condition like that.
So at the very least we dont have a global scum flipped.

I made another assesment in that all the flips we've seen so far have either a nation or a race included in the faction name.
This doesnt occur with the Isolationist result i got on SS.
This makes me think they are a mix with members that can be literally anything, and can be literally anywhere.
That looks more like a scum faction?

[Luna Fox]

@Luna -- Why fake claim strong willed at all?

To try to eliminate the possibility of redirection from reactions

And why identify it as yourself later?

Read the post where i revealed myself. I was planning on just working as a VT because i didnt want to give more info to scum by them abusing me as a way to get results with redirection, since at the time, i was buying SS's reaction.

It is mainly all the information being shared and likely if there is a Wulden in there then some of it may not be accurate. Why add to this confusion?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here.

[Luna Fox]

You claimed a guilty on me.

Hold on a second! How do you KNOW "isolationist" = GUILTY??

Oh hey that's a good point.

[Luna Fox]

If you really want to replace out because you cant figure out the game go ahead, i dont blame you, this game is pretty hard to figure out, i however am having fun trying to figure it out, and mastin put effort into making this, and im not letting that effort go to waste.
But being here complaining that you dont know what anything means, and not listening to the people actually trying to make sense of the game isnt going to make scum magically pop out of nowhere.
P-Edit: This is directed at the people that feel like replacing out because "it isnt a game of mafia".

[Luna Fox]

and dram is not like anyone else. as far as I'm now this wincon will be triggered at some point of the game when an event "new human treaty" triggers.

Yes, im aware, i have that same wincon too, i also dont know when or how this triggers, i have no idea what i need to do to win or who the threats to this are.
What i do know is that if you have a role PM similar to those other 3 flipped as you claim you should have even less confusion than me, and im not complaining.

[Luna Fox]

I mean sorry if i sounded mean.
It's just kinda starting to annoy me that 90% of the posts in here is "omg i dont know what to do, i dont know who i need to kill" instead of actual scumhunting.
I already have given you guys an starting point.
I have an Isolationist faction result on beeboy who's denying that they are that faction.
I already made inferences that suggest this may be the global scum faction we've been looking for.
However, there's a low but possible chance i got redirected, if this is true, there's scum in my hood.

This is enough for you to make an informed decission on how to go from here.

[Luna Fox]

so luna is in informed faction

lets lynch her?

It'd be if i knew who my allies are.
But as it stands not even anyone in my hood is guaranteed to be my ally.
And i have unknown allies outside of it (like Ceph if what he claims is true).

[Luna Fox]

I really have a feeling all these lost players are town, I really doubt scum is really lost coz they probably have an easier to understand win con (like the 50% of the living which is pretty straight forward)

[Luna Fox]

i'm town.

I already figured that out XD

[Luna Fox]

Either way, on this whole thing.
It's either SS or someone in my hood, people need to take a stance the chances of being interfered with from outside of the hood factors are like less than 1%.

[Luna Fox]

It does pain me to say it coz hitting my hood and being wrong severely lowers the chances i win, which why i'd prefer SS to go down first to make sure there's scum there in the first place.

[Luna Fox]

Either way, on this whole thing.
It's either SS or someone in my hood, people need to take a stance the chances of being interfered with from outside of the hood factors are like less than 1%.

i mean, it's probably both, let's be real. kling's slot is scum.

it's just that there being scum in your hood doesn't mean the scum has a redirector that targeted you.

I mean sure it's possible that even if SS is scum, there's still possibility of being scum in the hood
SS being town means there's a guarantee however (or at least like 99% chance).

[Luna Fox]

I mean i dont really mind that much if people choose to go after my hood instead of SS.
But i dislike the fact that people are evading the topic altogether
It's not really a very gray area, just people need to take a stance, i gave them all the info needed to make an informed stance.

[Luna Fox]

Luna, I'm more inclined to think the lost players lack the ability to comprehend text, and prioritize goals. It's pretty straightforward. Scum are ALWAYS threats to everyone but themselves, so get rid of them. All else is secondary. All this hemming and hawing amd hitching and moaning is meaningless. Identify town. Don't let them get mislynched. Identify scum. Remove them by any means necessary. That's the fucking game, every time. All this multifactional bullshit is just noise.

100% QFT.

[Luna Fox]

Cephrir.....what the fuck difference does it really make? Unless you have a kill and need to be aware of whether or not you may be removing those who could enable your victory, it doesn't fucking matter man. You'll live or die based on the reads vigs and the rest of the town have on you, and whether or not you're a threat to scum.

Because Ceph's wincon is the same as mine (or so he claims, but the way he's going about this sounds genuine)
i.e we need someone with the same win con alive to win.
And we need to protect this new humanity treaty that we dont even know!
So if anything we should be more frustrated with this whole thing as from what i've gathered this is some sort of Town-Survivor hybrid.
Which means that yeah... dying does matter for us (and in turn, for everyone in my hood that's actually my ally)
Why else am i making such a big deal of figuring out for certain if SS is town or not.

[Luna Fox]

Meanwhile wake is doing the equivalent of asking ppl in a mafia game to claim town.

[Luna Fox]

From what i gather your faction appears to be human no?
Do you believe having everyone of your faction claim and putting themselves as tasty bait for non human recruit is a good idea?

[Luna Fox]

Like, this is just hilarious to watch at this point.

[Luna Fox]

From what i gather your faction appears to be human no?
Do you believe having everyone of your faction claim and putting themselves as tasty bait for non human recruit is a good idea?

I don't recall that part.

If there are non-human members of my Faction, perhaps it would be safer for them.

(Keep in mind I haven't read through 200 pages of speculation.)

So you're human, ok.

[Luna Fox]

I suggest you reading this in more detail:

Each faction, if possessing a non-human race, has a one-shot ability to recruit a human to their faction. Emphasis "human". This ability will fail if more than one faction attempts this on the same target. This ability does not work on all humans. Regardless of success or failure, this ability is used up once activated. (The recruiter will be informed if they fail, but not the reason why.) In short, only the unluckiest of humans will get culled. It can happen, though, so be cautious!

Before you go on.

[Luna Fox]

Meanwhile im standing here, on the equivalent of a cop guilty.
While you're proposing endangering your faction to potential recruiting.

[Luna Fox]

I dont even know what's going on with the people in this game anymore if it takes like 80 pages to get SS lynched.

P-Edit: Yay thanks!

[Luna Fox]

Meanwhile im standing here, on the equivalent of a cop guilty.
While you're proposing endangering your faction to potential recruiting.

A)

I have a life.

B)

This game has been huge and confusing for a long while until now.

C)

Have a hug.

I can understand that, but i highly suggest you read things like the culting mechanic before you do this.
I mean i could've let you go on anyways and let you get recruited since it's still town in the end (unless you get recruited by scum).
But i highly doubt the other members of your faction will reply to your call anyway.

[Luna Fox]

I need a REAL condensed reason as to WHY I should vote SS.

Because i've been claiming a guilty on the since like the start of the day phase?
Well it wasnt a guilty until they mentioned it was.

[Luna Fox]

I'll put it to you into perspective
I have a faction scan on them that heavily points to our possible global scum faction. However there's a chance i got redirected, in which case there's scum in my hood guaranteed.

So lynching SS is at best a scum lynch and at worst, narrows down lynch pool for scum.

[Luna Fox]

I'll put it to you into perspective
I have a faction scan on them that heavily points to our possible global scum faction. However there's a chance i got redirected, in which case there's scum in my hood guaranteed.

So lynching SS is at best a scum lynch and at worst, narrows down lynch pool for scum.

To progress the game I'd be willing to vote SS, but I need to know HOW EXACTLY you can guarantee there's Scum in your Hood if you were redirected.

Ok, i claimed faction cop pregame in my hood by accident thinking it was a masonry.
So the only way scum would've known is if there's scum in my hood.

[Luna Fox]

Can you tell me the number of people in your Hood?

Unfortunately i cant give you this info right now, all i can tell you is what i've already told you.
There's a bigger summary somewhere in my ISO that explains the details of the scan and why i believe there's very low chance of redirection regardless, but if it happened the culprit is in the hood.

I never said the redirector was in the hood, but the scum in the hood that did the deed obviously would have a redirector in their faction.

[Luna Fox]

Summary: 5488

[Luna Fox]

Also:

Either way, on this whole thing.
It's either SS or someone in my hood, people need to take a stance the chances of being interfered with from outside of the hood factors are like less than 1%.

[Luna Fox]

People are also making assumptions of the contents of the hood and size, none of us have confirmed anything else aside from what we've already mentioned.
You're free to believe or disbelieve any assumptions made by other players on it.

[Luna Fox]

Can you tell me the number of people in your Hood?

Unfortunately i cant give you this info right now, all i can tell you is what i've already told you.
There's a bigger summary somewhere in my ISO that explains the details of the scan and why i believe there's very low chance of redirection regardless, but if it happened the culprit is in the hood.

I never said the redirector was in the hood, but the scum in the hood that did the deed obviously would have a redirector in their faction.

You

do

realize overtly withholding information from me with zero reason will be a bad idea down the road, right?

On the contrary
Considering i've already mentioned that my faction needs to win with town AND survive, it makes sense that i need to withhold information lest all us be night killed and lose the game.

[Luna Fox]

I'm still not exactly sure why Exp and Luna are so sure that Luna's result was not messed

Read my summary post, there I explain the reasoning behind it. And i said there's a very low chance it was, but i do admit it as a possibility.
Due to my win condition i rather lynch SS first, than going on hunting in my hood just to find out that i actually didn't have scum in it and SS's guilty was legit.

[Luna Fox]

Well, I understand Mathblade's issue with you (i think?) because it looks similar to mine:
It's either SS is scum or there's scum in my hood.
And you dont seem to be figuring out which of these cases it is, but you believe it to be the later, and you dont seem to be figuring out who the scum in the hood is.

P-Edit: ninja'd

[Luna Fox]

At the very least, im not exactly sure how RAM benefits from trying to save SS as a scumpartner, since as soon as SS flips scum everyone's going to go after RAM due to this defense.
Dunno, the motivations look really weird to me.

P-Edit: Uh, when did you determine that?, i missed it.

[Luna Fox]

Either way.
I hope you realize that my wincon is at risk by lynching in the hood without certainty of the existance of scum in it, i'd prefer to lynch SS first because im not 100% sure they are town, and you shouldn't be so sure either, what do you lose if they flip town?
Meanwhile i lose A LOT if Bacde flips town.

[Luna Fox]

Unless of course, you're an enemy of our faction and so you rather kill there without regards of hitting scum.
I don't see why exactly you're taking this stance otherwise.

[Luna Fox]

I know you have a scumread on KC, im not arguing that what im arguing is:

Either way.
I hope you realize that my wincon is at risk by lynching in the hood without certainty of the existance of scum in it, i'd prefer to lynch SS first because im not 100% sure they are town, and you shouldn't be so sure either, what do you lose if they flip town?
Meanwhile i lose A LOT if Bacde flips town.

And your stance seems to lead that you dont care if Bacde flips town, rather than making 100% sure first there's scum in the hood to begin with.

[Luna Fox]

Like it seems that you rather jeopardize my win condition just because you THINK that SS is town.

[Luna Fox]

Well of course you dont care.
You're an opposing faction.
That much i am certain of now.

[Luna Fox]

I'm actually of the opinion that there is definitely scum in your PT. It seems incredibly implausible that your faction was given a (5/6/????) man masonry. Moreover, given such a masonry with a watcher, a 2x BP, and a faction cop? So you could 1) have the BP give out results from your PR's, 2) have the watcher observe who tries to kill the BP, and 3)still utilize a cop.

Well alignment would be entirely random.
I was one of the main pushers before that there must be at least 1 scum in there, but i rather have the guarantee.
If i tried to scan in my PT considering i was claimed it was very likely i'd been roleblocked or killed by the scumteam whoever's scum in my PT is with. I explained this already

[Luna Fox]

Besides, you're still refusing to lynch a cop guilty.

[Luna Fox]

I already said.
Because Isolationist faction is scum.
Their name is different from all other factions and makes more sense as a general scum faction/cult faction than anything else.
How many times do i have to explain that.

[Luna Fox]

Thanks a lot Math.
Finally someone that understands how redirector works.

[Luna Fox]

Understand this:
If they know im targeting outside the hood, they cant redirect me towards town inside the hood as that wouldn't make sense because there cannot be more undead risen slaves outside.
If they know im targeting outside the hood they cannot redirect me towards themselves as there's still a chance i target them myself.
On top of it, i got the correct check on the nation/location of someone in my hood.

[Luna Fox]

Also, roles not following the wiki DOES NOT make the game bastard in and of itself. It makes them NON NORMAL. That is, THEME.

Uhh but redirector is already explicitly not normal

[Luna Fox]

And to be fair, redirector existence in itself is already borderline bastard, since it's similar to uncertain sanities in cop checks, i.e. you cant trust your results.

[Luna Fox]

Can we please establish, btw, that this game has WIN CONDITION CHANGES.

That makes it bastard.

Period.

Arguing over whether or not something would be/is bastard is irrelevant in a game which was announced with bastard mechanics in the mechanics post.

-Cerb

And yes i know.
The existence of redirector also makes it bastard, but i'd at least assume it follows the mafiawiki and the mod wouldnt try to mess us up further than the role already does.
It's like including a jester that has to die via NK instead of lynch.

[Luna Fox]

I mean there's Bastard games, and there's Bastard games where the mod goes even further and adds stuff just for their own amusement at the expense of the players. I'd rather believe this wouldn't be the 2nd case.

[Luna Fox]

Basically from my PoV, if the mod did give the scumteam a redirector that not only alreayd messes up results, but can also CHOOSE which result they can mess up, i might as well throw up hands into the air and give up because my faction isnt going to win like ever.

[Luna Fox]

Pedit: oh, because you can't scumhunt without relying on PRs?

No, because being wrong is 100x worse than if i was just a normal townie, and while i do feel some pride on my hunting skills, i dont consider myself near as good enough to get 100% accuracy on it.

[Luna Fox]

If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected

Not necessarily tho?
In my case it's because everyone mass claimed N/L in the hood, but for anyone else, or even people not in a hood, they wont be able to tell the difference between a redirected secondary check and a correct one.

[Luna Fox]

RAM can you acknowledge at least that you read my explanation as to why redirector that redirects all actions is possible?
Because im not sure if you missed it.
Probably not relevant now, but might be relevant later.

[Luna Fox]

I meant this:

If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected

Not necessarily tho?
In my case it's because everyone mass claimed N/L in the hood, but for anyone else, or even people not in a hood, they wont be able to tell the difference between a redirected secondary check and a correct one.

Yeah it's irrelevant as of right now.
But it might be relevant in the future when someone else claims an scan result.
I just dont want it to be lost in case i get NK'd or something.

[Luna Fox]

Im probably just getting tired, but im glad we're finally coming to a conclusion.

[Luna Fox]

On other news.
Food for thought.
Heartless activity has severely decreased this day phase, and it's anti's scum meta to get apathetic.
It may be related to the overblowing of information and how hard this game is to figure out to begin with.
But dont let something like this slide later on, specially if anti is involved.

[Luna Fox]

Which I why I already said, use the simplest explanation -- SS claims a different faction than a faction cop's result, and the mod confirms what a faction result would contain, then SS must be lying. Since faction determines scum/town (/cult) it's the one thing in this game that we can count on. Does "Isolationist" sound like it goes with a town wincon of "(new) human treaty"? I'd say not.

As I mentioned earlier.
Most factions that have flipped with town win cons have some sort of Nation or Race attached to the faction name.
Isolationist does not, it sounds like it's a mix of everything in that way, which leads me to think it's the most likely global scum faction or cult, due to how not having a certain nation or race attached to it, it can literally be everywhere.

[Luna Fox]

Are we really arguing over if this game is bastard or not

OK NEWS FLASH

this is a bastard game

Bus driver is confusable with redirector they are kind of close I believe though bus driver just swaps out two peeps like player A is targeted to bus drive with player B

Anything that is supposed to happen to player A ends up happening to player B instead like a doc protect, a jailkeep, a nk or so on.

While redirect actually affects actions not specific people IIRC

Btw bus driver is already impossible because another player targeted them for a nation (or was it location?) scan and SS confirmed it was correct.

[Luna Fox]

Im probably just getting tired, but im glad we're finally coming to a conclusion.

What is the conclusion?

I will literally vote for anyone.

Salt Squad, up 2 you whether you want to lay the vote down now or wait for an up to date VC.

[Luna Fox]

L+1

[Luna Fox]

I guess you wanted to make sure he's dead huh

[Luna Fox]

L+2!

[Luna Fox]

Kinda funny now that i think about it:

I think that Tim's scum, and BBMolla's town.

Also my 4th post in undead thread:

I have a feeling Cakez and Ceph have access to some sort of PT.

[Luna Fox]

Also Nero didn't want my faction to win, I'm sad

[Luna Fox]

Also if you want to know why i was feeling the way i was, feel free to read the undead thread.

[Luna Fox]

From Isolationists thread:

But we got mad town reads tho.

Funny how that turned out.

[Luna Fox]

lol me being culted would've been interesting, i've never been part of a cult. But it was too obv i'd get shot due to my claim.
Considering toog BG'ing me, this would have gone so differently if we had lynched WT D1.
Specially due to the result i got on Beeboy

[Luna Fox]

I think the most confusing win condition was the undead one, town had it easy.