Gistou (Over!)

[mastin2]

Mastin, does any player know if their objective is to destroy a certain group?

I cannot answer that.

Do we... How can I trust my role PM when you say it's ambiguous?

This post is addressed to 'you' as a general, to all players, 'you'.

Information given in the mechanics section (the role section) is accurate.

This means, in your own role PM, there is meant to be

almost

no ambiguity. There may be some in yours, if you did not understand the role correctly and/or did not ask the right questions.
However, this is why you're supposed to

keep

asking questions, until it is not. I keep on telling people to do this! I have made things as clear as I can, both publicly and to multiple players privately. If it's not good enough, then keep asking! I will never refuse to address the inquiry. I will always try to get the information I can deliver across.

Information on

other players' roles

, however, is deliberately meant to be ambiguous. This is not an unusual modding practice; many moderators on this site have a policy of "I will give role information to only the player who has that role". For this game, Gistou, I have taken that policy. You will be given everything there is to know about that player...except information that only that player was privy to, in this case: factional abilities.

I have, so to speak, thrown

several

bones, including literally just making the announcement to treat this first and foremost like a normal mafia game, and

make the assumptions you would make in a normal mafia game

. Given what information I have made public, on the workings of town and the workings of scum, this is not a difficult task. So once again, to quote the relevant section from the mechanics post:

Your faction is your wincon. They are not public information.

Factions are NOT public information.

Any party who is in need of a fakeclaim has the mod-given ability for one.

Any player who needs a fakeclaim has one.

This is a multi-factional game.

Please pay very close attention to your win condition. Some players who you may not think are allies will be fighting for the same thing you are, and some players who you may think are fighting for the same thing you are may not actually be allies. The ambiguity inherent is meant to reflect the moral ambiguity of Gistou.

There are multiple factions in this game. You are meant to read your wincon, given the information within your role PM

and

these facts I am quoting, to figure out who is, and isn't, an ally or an enemy.

To further help, there is the following information available:

Loosely speaking, there is at least one town faction. They win if all threats to them are eliminated.

Loosely speaking, at least one faction is definitely a scum/mafia faction. They win if they control 50% of the living.

Furthermore, as I recently clarified:

I offer a guarantee that, on D1, the players considered town outnumber the players considered scum.

The town in this game are an uninformed majority, as in any game, and do not know their allies.
The scum in this game are an informed minority.

This is as much help as I can give.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Salt Squad

Good point about the guilty.

@Song -- Know no. Hypothesis yes.

My hypothesis is that some races just want to survive. Some races just want to have the treaty complete. Then there are broad scum. Assume you are from tribe 1 and look at Titus's flip. It suggests that the 3 directional factions are warring with each other. This either means all north are a threat to the other directions or there are threats within that.

This is one game. All players are "town" aka uninformed but some can't necessarily win with the others. When Titus flipped I went back at why she was so insistent and it is probably because of that.

Then there is the broad overarching game of the 50% scum that need to die.

This is my hypothesis. Make sense?

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

so luna is in informed faction

lets lynch her?

[mastin2]

Mastin, when players die and flip will there be anything at all to differentiate between Town and Scum?

All players with different factions will die and flip with the differences noted as they have been: factional abilities will be redacted, and ALL non-factional information--including their wincon--will be displayed.

[MathBlade]

so luna is in informed faction

lets lynch her?

A neighborhood doesn't imply informed though. It is possible the entire neighborhood is scum but I don't see them confirming Luna in that case. However I don't see a town team outing as much as they have either.

[Wake1]

I'll likely have a lot of questions for you tomorrow Mastin.

I'm confused with this game, but I do appreciate the patience.

[MathBlade]

Confirming Luna is in a PT with them*

[Luna Fox]

so luna is in informed faction

lets lynch her?

It'd be if i knew who my allies are.
But as it stands not even anyone in my hood is guaranteed to be my ally.
And i have unknown allies outside of it (like Ceph if what he claims is true).

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

I am kind of like, maybe if we see more flips I will understand this game better? But I also think that approach is dangerous...
Meh.

I don't know if I will figure it out.

~Fire

[Wake1]

Mastin, when players die and flip will there be anything at all to differentiate between Town and Scum?

All players with different factions will die and flip with the differences noted as they have been: factional abilities will be redacted, and ALL non-factional information--including their wincon--will be displayed.

OK, what does that mean?

Hypothetically if a player within a faction has 'you need to kill this certain faction/all these people' would that show up upon a flip?

[Almost50]

You claimed a guilty on me.

Hold on a second! How do you KNOW "isolationist" = GUILTY??

Because this day phase has had 80 pages and no one has claimed to be part of that faction ^__^
Keep trying though.

Excuse me for not knowing the basics of the game.

All right everybody, let's do a massclaim, bc it apparent to me now that claiming = Town, and not claiming = Scum.

Also, since I already claimed (thus must be town) why do you keep putting me in your lynch pool?? If you doubt my claim, I'd point you at wake for one. He can confirm my claim bc he IS Northern Tribes and his PM IS in Cyan, and I claimed the colour before he did, while he claimed Northern before I did, so we both confirm eachother (being Northern faction, that is).

You try again!

[Cephrir]

This means, in your own role PM, there is meant to be almost no ambiguity. There may be some in yours, if you did not understand the role correctly and/or did not ask the right questions.
However, this is why you're supposed to keep asking questions, until it is not. I keep on telling people to do this! I have made things as clear as I can, both publicly and to multiple players privately. If it's not good enough, then keep asking! I will never refuse to address the inquiry. I will always try to get the information I can deliver across.

Information on other players' roles, however, is deliberately meant to be ambiguous. This is not an unusual modding practice; many moderators on this site have a policy of "I will give role information to only the player who has that role". For this game, Gistou, I have taken that policy.

You will be given everything there is to know about that player...except information that only that player was privy to, in this case: factional abilities.

I'm sorry, but my role PM is ambiguous, "look at the mechanics post again" isn't an answer, and I don't think you;ll like it if I ask you the same question 50 times so I'm not going to keep asking.

The bolded is false. I need to know if flipped players' win conditions count as being the same as mine. In this instance, it is the same, but it says a different thing in front of it ("Undead Risen Slave Win Condition") and I need to know whether you count it as being the same win condition as mine and you refuse to answer the questions. That isn't giving me everything I need to know about a dead player.

I don't want to antagonize you, I have a very high opinion of you and have enjoyed your mafia games in the past, but these are things that need to be clear and they are not clear and the result is that this is shit. You can say "you have to figure it out" all you want but reading your mind about a semantic distinction should not be my job.

[Salt Squad]

You claimed a guilty on me.

Hold on a second! How do you KNOW "isolationist" = GUILTY??

Because this day phase has had 80 pages and no one has claimed to be part of that faction ^__^
Keep trying though.

Excuse me for not knowing the basics of the game.

All right everybody, let's do a massclaim, bc it apparent to me now that claiming = Town, and not claiming = Scum.

Also, since I already claimed (thus must be town) why do you keep putting me in your lynch pool?? If you doubt my claim, I'd point you at wake for one. He can confirm my claim bc he IS Northern Tribes and his PM IS in Cyan, and I claimed the colour before he did, while he claimed Northern before I did, so we both confirm eachother (being Northern faction, that is).

You try again!

Your posts aren't even worth reading in all honesty.

[Salt Squad]

I feel like A50 will just confbias everything I do.

[Cephrir]

Like, I don't know if I need to expect to be alive to win and that information wildly changes my objective and you won't tell me which it is.

[RAM]

@mathblade: survivalism is NAI. It is your fucking job, as any alignment, to not get lynched(barring jesters and shit like that). As town, you KNOW a lynch on you is a mislynch, therefore a lynch on literally anyone else is superior, because from your perspective it has a higher chance of being a lynch on scum.

Luna isn't scum because it's fucking stupid to claim a guilty on someone the way she did, when she has an entire PT to use to communicate. Real or interfered with, it's stupid to paint that target on yourself as scum in a multiball game. If she flat out made up a result as scum, it's EVEN STUPIDER.

So yeah. She's not scum. Obviously.

Please don't waste my time again by asking why the most obviously town slot in the game isn't someone I'm willing to consider as scum.
@expedience: fuck off with your stupid request for SS to self vote. All self votes do is fuck with towns ability to analyze wagons, and stifle conversation by ending the day sooner. There's a reason why scum self vote.

I'm appalled at the foolishness of some of the things being said here.

Speaking of which: YOUR JOB IS TO CATCH FUCKING SCUM. IF THERE STOP BEING NIGHT KILLS, AND THE GAME IS NOT OVER, THEN FUCKING WORRY ABOUT YOUR ANCILLIARY GOALS.

Until then, do your fucking jobs.

-Cerb

Pedit: No, the fact that he referred to the result on him as a guilty is MEANINGLESS because the GAME has been treating it as such.

[Wake1]

Mastin, since I'm of the Northern Tribes faction does this mean (unless the player is lying) that other players of the Northern Tribe faction are part of my Town and can be trusted? Or is it that Scum can be infiltrated INSIDE my Northern Tribes faction?

[mastin2]

Hypothetically if a player within a faction has 'you need to kill this certain faction/all these people' would that show up upon a flip?

If their wincon was worded that way...yes. But only if it was worded that way; in a sense,

all

factions have this goal (because every mafia game has that goal: town's wincon is to eliminate every scum faction/all scum players; scum's wincon is to eliminate all resistance to them), but I offer no guarantee on wording. (Because you often see town wincons as "You win when all threats to the town are eliminated", rather than "You win when all mafia are dead". The latter

does

exist, but the former is more common, even though they mean the same thing.)

[Almost50]

I need to know if anyof them is my faction's threat or not.

If we knew everything right from the start we're either scum or we aren't playing Mafia at all. You need to put the pieces of the puzzle together, pursue assumptions and possibilities to get to end results.

For now, we (you and I) are allied. However, later on we may still be fully allied or may have to work on our own differences. My faction is wide exposed to yours though, so IF we had to lock horns in a later stage yours probably will come on top 99% of the time.

Let's lynch those who might be a threat to us and protect those who look like they can't hurt us. With every flip in the game we will learn something new, while with every complaint the game becomes less enjoyable, so please do put your mind in the game and try to figure it out yourself. Help me help you.. in other words.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

in a sense, all factions have this goal (because every mafia game has that goal:

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

in a sense, all factions have this goal (because every mafia game has that goal:

Fixed

[Luna Fox]

I really have a feeling all these lost players are town, I really doubt scum is really lost coz they probably have an easier to understand win con (like the 50% of the living which is pretty straight forward)

[MathBlade]

@mathblade: survivalism is NAI. It is your fucking job, as any alignment, to not get lynched(barring jesters and shit like that). As town, you KNOW a lynch on you is a mislynch, therefore a lynch on literally anyone else is superior, because from your perspective it has a higher chance of being a lynch on scum.

Luna isn't scum because it's fucking stupid to claim a guilty on someone the way she did, when she has an entire PT to use to communicate. Real or interfered with, it's stupid to paint that target on yourself as scum in a multiball game. If she flat out made up a result as scum, it's EVEN STUPIDER.

So yeah. She's not scum. Obviously.

Please don't waste my time again by asking why the most obviously town slot in the game isn't someone I'm willing to consider as scum.
@expedience: fuck off with your stupid request for SS to self vote. All self votes do is fuck with towns ability to analyze wagons, and stifle conversation by ending the day sooner. There's a reason why scum self vote.

I'm appalled at the foolishness of some of the things being said here.

Speaking of which: YOUR JOB IS TO CATCH FUCKING SCUM. IF THERE STOP BEING NIGHT KILLS, AND THE GAME IS NOT OVER, THEN FUCKING WORRY ABOUT YOUR ANCILLIARY GOALS.

Until then, do your fucking jobs.

-Cerb

Pedit: No, the fact that he referred to the result on him as a guilty is MEANINGLESS because the GAME has been treating it as such.

On the majority of that I agree. Survivalism can be AI or NAI depending on who and how. And as town I agree that if I was lynch on me is a mislynch yes. It is more between the guilty phrase pointed out by Almost50 and the fact that Salt Squad is waffling between themselves being a good lynch or not.

[Cephrir]

ok new philosophy.

i'm town.

if at the end of the game i'm told that i lost because i didn't understand semantics, i will choose to believe that i won.

the end. i will make this mafia even if it is not mafia.

[Luna Fox]

i'm town.

I already figured that out XD