Gistou (Over!)

[Luna Fox]

I'm actually of the opinion that there is definitely scum in your PT. It seems incredibly implausible that your faction was given a (5/6/????) man masonry. Moreover, given such a masonry with a watcher, a 2x BP, and a faction cop? So you could 1) have the BP give out results from your PR's, 2) have the watcher observe who tries to kill the BP, and 3)still utilize a cop.

Well alignment would be entirely random.
I was one of the main pushers before that there must be at least 1 scum in there, but i rather have the guarantee.
If i tried to scan in my PT considering i was claimed it was very likely i'd been roleblocked or killed by the scumteam whoever's scum in my PT is with. I explained this already

[Luna Fox]

Besides, you're still refusing to lynch a cop guilty.

[RAM]

I'm actually of the opinion that there is definitely scum in your PT. It seems incredibly implausible that your faction was given a (5/6/????) man masonry. Moreover, given such a masonry with a watcher, a 2x BP, and a faction cop? So you could 1) have the BP give out results from your PR's, 2) have the watcher observe who tries to kill the BP, and 3)still utilize a cop.

Well alignment would be entirely random.
I was one of the main pushers before that there must be at least 1 scum in there, but i rather have the guarantee.
If i tried to scan in my PT considering i was claimed it was very likely i'd been roleblocked or killed by the scumteam whoever's scum in my PT is with. I explained this already

...

That's why you announce your looking outside the PT, then actually look inside.

And I have REPEATEDLY stated what part of SS' actions makes me so certain he's town.

I have asked for someone to explain to me what the scum benefit of his behavior over the alternatives is.

Nobody has expressed anything resembling a reasonable response. The only thing you can all say is "well, we're not dumb, OF COURSE we'd assume isolationist was scum if he agreed with the result" when the majority of players in this game have CLEARLY displayed their idiocy with regards to win conditions and faction claims.

Seems like an extremely easy sell to me(particularly when placed alongside the circumstantial guilty on LLD).

-Cerb

[MathBlade]

Mainly that if it is point 2 that you don't seem to be trying to find out how in option 2 scum knew how to redirect Luna. It is why I asked them last night about when they first claimed. Option 2 IMHO requires the scum team to be psychic and/or in Luna's hood.

And even if they were why they would redirect on themselves when a claimed watcher is in the hood. I don't see you trying to answer that it looks more like you are trying to save SS.

I don't believe anyone has said that Klingon was claimed yesterday. Nahdia said that she thought about making a blanket statement to have doctors/watchers in their PT target Luna, but chose not to because she thought it was obvious. The phrasing she used would seem to indicate that there was no claim of a watcher, or else she would have specifically called out KC. That's how I interpret that statement at least.

I'm also not suggesting that they redirected on themselves? Multi-factional game. This could just as easily be a random redirect(though if they KNEW Luna wasn't targeting within her PT(which is something she announced) a framing redirect becomes almost certain).

I feel as though you have a rather weak understanding of the game state here Mathblade. Or at least, not exactly accurate recollection of the claims which have been made regarding events.

-Cerb

They would have to for it to make sense.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

Based on how a redirector works is that it targets all actions according to the wiki. And if this is bastard and only targeted a specific action then they would have to redirect to someone they would know had the alternative information Luna was looking at. And they would then have to frame on top of that or luckily hit another scum or cult. If they have a framer redirect becomes moot.

If the redirect without framer was the case, that seems stupid as then unless they knew that Luna was targeting scum. If they knew Luna was targeting scum they would redirect her onto herself to deny use of her power. The fact it is a guilty means they redirected onto themselves or cult.

I agree that there is probably scum in the PT Ram it is way too op. However if I

[Luna Fox]

I already said.
Because Isolationist faction is scum.
Their name is different from all other factions and makes more sense as a general scum faction/cult faction than anything else.
How many times do i have to explain that.

[Luna Fox]

Thanks a lot Math.
Finally someone that understands how redirector works.

[RAM]

Mainly that if it is point 2 that you don't seem to be trying to find out how in option 2 scum knew how to redirect Luna. It is why I asked them last night about when they first claimed. Option 2 IMHO requires the scum team to be psychic and/or in Luna's hood.

And even if they were why they would redirect on themselves when a claimed watcher is in the hood. I don't see you trying to answer that it looks more like you are trying to save SS.

I don't believe anyone has said that Klingon was claimed yesterday. Nahdia said that she thought about making a blanket statement to have doctors/watchers in their PT target Luna, but chose not to because she thought it was obvious. The phrasing she used would seem to indicate that there was no claim of a watcher, or else she would have specifically called out KC. That's how I interpret that statement at least.

I'm also not suggesting that they redirected on themselves? Multi-factional game. This could just as easily be a random redirect(though if they KNEW Luna wasn't targeting within her PT(which is something she announced) a framing redirect becomes almost certain).

I feel as though you have a rather weak understanding of the game state here Mathblade. Or at least, not exactly accurate recollection of the claims which have been made regarding events.

-Cerb

They would have to for it to make sense.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

Based on how a redirector works is that it targets all actions according to the wiki.

And if this is bastard and only targeted a specific action then they would have to redirect to someone they would know had the alternative information Luna was looking at.

And they would then have to frame on top of that or luckily hit another scum or cult. If they have a framer redirect becomes moot.

If the redirect without framer was the case, that seems stupid as then unless they knew that Luna was targeting scum. If they knew Luna was targeting scum they would redirect her onto herself to deny use of her power. The fact it is a guilty means they redirected onto themselves or cult.

I agree that there is probably scum in the PT Ram it is way too op. However if I

I don't understand the bold.

You are correct that redirecting onto herself actually seems like a more consistently useful play than a random redirect, or a frame when you don't know who the actual intended target is going to be.

Hmm.

I hadn't considered the self redirection option. That eh, that sorta messes with the whole redirection thing, because it makes it far less likely that the necessary usage we'd have to see in order for SS to be town was the actual way it would be used.

Framer is super unlikely, simply because it's like 1/(27-size of lunas PT) x 1/(27-size of scum team) that the framers target would line up with lunas. So, like less than a .25% chance that a framer would actually frame the right target.

Fuck.

-Cerb

[Luna Fox]

Understand this:
If they know im targeting outside the hood, they cant redirect me towards town inside the hood as that wouldn't make sense because there cannot be more undead risen slaves outside.
If they know im targeting outside the hood they cannot redirect me towards themselves as there's still a chance i target them myself.
On top of it, i got the correct check on the nation/location of someone in my hood.

[MathBlade]

Mainly that if it is point 2 that you don't seem to be trying to find out how in option 2 scum knew how to redirect Luna. It is why I asked them last night about when they first claimed. Option 2 IMHO requires the scum team to be psychic and/or in Luna's hood.

And even if they were why they would redirect on themselves when a claimed watcher is in the hood. I don't see you trying to answer that it looks more like you are trying to save SS.

I don't believe anyone has said that Klingon was claimed yesterday. Nahdia said that she thought about making a blanket statement to have doctors/watchers in their PT target Luna, but chose not to because she thought it was obvious. The phrasing she used would seem to indicate that there was no claim of a watcher, or else she would have specifically called out KC. That's how I interpret that statement at least.

I'm also not suggesting that they redirected on themselves? Multi-factional game. This could just as easily be a random redirect(though if they KNEW Luna wasn't targeting within her PT(which is something she announced) a framing redirect becomes almost certain).

I feel as though you have a rather weak understanding of the game state here Mathblade. Or at least, not exactly accurate recollection of the claims which have been made regarding events.

-Cerb

They would have to for it to make sense.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

Based on how a redirector works is that it targets all actions according to the wiki.

And if this is bastard and only targeted a specific action then they would have to redirect to someone they would know had the alternative information Luna was looking at.

And they would then have to frame on top of that or luckily hit another scum or cult. If they have a framer redirect becomes moot.

If the redirect without framer was the case, that seems stupid as then unless they knew that Luna was targeting scum. If they knew Luna was targeting scum they would redirect her onto herself to deny use of her power. The fact it is a guilty means they redirected onto themselves or cult.

I agree that there is probably scum in the PT Ram it is way too op. However if I

I don't understand the bold.

You are correct that redirecting onto herself actually seems like a more consistently useful play than a random redirect, or a frame when you don't know who the actual intended target is going to be.

Hmm.

I hadn't considered the self redirection option. That eh, that sorta messes with the whole redirection thing, because it makes it far less likely that the necessary usage we'd have to see in order for SS to be town was the actual way it would be used.

Framer is super unlikely, simply because it's like 1/(27-size of lunas PT) x 1/(27-size of scum team) that the framers target would line up with lunas. So, like less than a .25% chance that a framer would actually frame the right target.

Fuck.

-Cerb

The redirector wiki says all actions.

If a role doesn't follow the wiki ergo bastard.

The alternative information is the nation/location Luna asked about.

[RAM]

Understand this:
If they know im targeting outside the hood, they cant redirect me towards town inside the hood as that wouldn't make sense because there cannot be more undead risen slaves outside.
If they know im targeting outside the hood they cannot redirect me towards themselves as there's still a chance i target them myself.
On top of it, i got the correct check on the nation/location of someone in my hood.

I 100% do not believe you having the correct check on nation/location matters, at all.

This IS a bastard game, and the "all roles have a check" mechanic is unique to it. Considering slots may use their check *and* their role abilities simultaneously, I sincerely believe that a redirection power that is source based wouldn't necessarily redirect everything.

I think your targeting announcement should have just been used to wifom so you could check inside the PT safely, because checking in the PT is, in a void, the optimal play, since it gets you closer to creating a masonry rather than just a neighborhood. That's not really relevant, your suboptimal PR usage isn't significant. You're not going to convince me that you actually used your PR optimally, all i can hope is that in the future you will do so.

-Cerb

@Mathblade: THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.

...

Also, roles not following the wiki DOES NOT make the game bastard in and of itself. It makes them NON NORMAL. That is, THEME.

[RAM]

What are your thoughts, Luna, on the relation of your PT's power level to the likelihood that it contains scum?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Also, I want SS to claim. He's probably fairly close to lynch, but, well, the redirection thing seems SUPER implausible now since redirecting Luna to herself and using it as a roleblock certainly seems to be the safest way to use the power if such was involved.

-Cerb

[MathBlade]

What are your thoughts, Luna, on the relation of your PT's power level to the likelihood that it contains scum?

-Cerb

I agree with you the hood likely contains scum. It is with town reading Luna and the mental gymnastics I would have to go through to have Salt Squad be town

(E.g. Suboptimal play of redirecting anywhere but Luna herself)

That not lynching Salt Squad is too much to swallow.

Like pitch to me what scum do to make this scenario happen without a framer. Because that is the part I do not get.

[Luna Fox]

Also, roles not following the wiki DOES NOT make the game bastard in and of itself. It makes them NON NORMAL. That is, THEME.

Uhh but redirector is already explicitly not normal

[Luna Fox]

And to be fair, redirector existence in itself is already borderline bastard, since it's similar to uncertain sanities in cop checks, i.e. you cant trust your results.

[RAM]

What are your thoughts, Luna, on the relation of your PT's power level to the likelihood that it contains scum?

-Cerb

I agree with you the hood likely contains scum. It is with town reading Luna and the mental gymnastics I would have to go through to have Salt Squad be town

(E.g. Suboptimal play of redirecting anywhere but Luna herself)

That not lynching Salt Squad is too much to swallow.

Like pitch to me what scum do to make this scenario happen without a framer. Because that is the part I do not get.

Also, I want SS to claim. He's probably fairly close to lynch, but, well,

the redirection thing seems SUPER implausible now since redirecting Luna to herself and using it as a roleblock certainly seems to be the safest way to use the power

if such was involved.

-Cerb

It doesn't make sense anymore. I wasn't considering the possibility of them just redirecting Luna to herself, which made all other options have risks. When you add in just redirecting her to herself(assuming that would result in a blocked action, which I assume it would since generally people can't target themselves), it no longer makes sense for a scum team with a redirector and knowledge of the faction cop to utilize the redirect in the way it would have had to been utilized for SS to be town.

-Cerb

pedit: Oh? I don't play in normal games, I only play in large themes, unless a friend(*cough* drixx *cough*) needs a replacement or something. This has accustomed me to always asking the moderator how they handle things, rather than assuming they design their roles strictly in lockstep with wiki definitions.

[RAM]

Can we please establish, btw, that this game has WIN CONDITION CHANGES.

That makes it bastard.

Period.

Arguing over whether or not something would be/is bastard is irrelevant in a game which was announced with bastard mechanics in the mechanics post.

-Cerb

[Luna Fox]

Can we please establish, btw, that this game has WIN CONDITION CHANGES.

That makes it bastard.

Period.

Arguing over whether or not something would be/is bastard is irrelevant in a game which was announced with bastard mechanics in the mechanics post.

-Cerb

And yes i know.
The existence of redirector also makes it bastard, but i'd at least assume it follows the mafiawiki and the mod wouldnt try to mess us up further than the role already does.
It's like including a jester that has to die via NK instead of lynch.

[RAM]

....that is a poor assumption. Everything is fair game in a bastard theme game.

-Cerb

[Luna Fox]

I mean there's Bastard games, and there's Bastard games where the mod goes even further and adds stuff just for their own amusement at the expense of the players. I'd rather believe this wouldn't be the 2nd case.

[Luna Fox]

Basically from my PoV, if the mod did give the scumteam a redirector that not only alreayd messes up results, but can also CHOOSE which result they can mess up, i might as well throw up hands into the air and give up because my faction isnt going to win like ever.

[RAM]

This is off topic, specious speculation blah blah, but creating roles that function in a unique way makes the game interesting, it isn't somehow a negative thing for the game.

That's just my opinion, again coming from someone who plays in games which are generally full of unique roles and mechanics.

-Cerb

Pedit: oh, because you can't scumhunt without relying on PRs? :p The point of a redirector is the target of the redirection does not have any way of knowing they were redirected. If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected, thereby removing a lot of the utility from that role. Maybe that helps you better understand where I was coming from?

It's irrelevant now though, I'm no longer sure redirection must have been involved, so..:/

Basically I'm stuck witth ither scum was stupid/very greedy and used their redirection in a very risky fashion, a framer hit the correct target at that .25% chance, or SS is just really really bad and deliberately took a very incompetent path to defend themselves.

[Luna Fox]

Pedit: oh, because you can't scumhunt without relying on PRs?

No, because being wrong is 100x worse than if i was just a normal townie, and while i do feel some pride on my hunting skills, i dont consider myself near as good enough to get 100% accuracy on it.

[Luna Fox]

If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected

Not necessarily tho?
In my case it's because everyone mass claimed N/L in the hood, but for anyone else, or even people not in a hood, they wont be able to tell the difference between a redirected secondary check and a correct one.

[MathBlade]

This is off topic, specious speculation blah blah, but creating roles that function in a unique way makes the game interesting, it isn't somehow a negative thing for the game.

That's just my opinion, again coming from someone who plays in games which are generally full of unique roles and mechanics.

-Cerb

Pedit: oh, because you can't scumhunt without relying on PRs? :p The point of a redirector is the target of the redirection does not have any way of knowing they were redirected. If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected, thereby removing a lot of the utility from that role. Maybe that helps you better understand where I was coming from?

It's irrelevant now though, I'm no longer sure redirection must have been involved, so..:/

Basically I'm stuck witth ither scum was stupid/very greedy and used their redirection in a very risky fashion, a framer hit the correct target at that .25% chance, or SS is just really really bad and deliberately took a very incompetent path to defend themselves.

And it is that bottom paragraph is why I am voting SS. The hypocritical stances SS has taken makes the most likely scenario that they are not town aligned. Is it possible? Yes. Likely enough to consider lynching elsewhere no.

I have to go. Can someone do a temp vote count until Mastin gets on so we know where we are at?