Gistou (Over!)

[Toogeloo]

mrifnoc\

[Toogeloo]

I'm probably not going to read anything before this post. As big as the game is, with as many Hydras, I might even end up having to skim through what will almost assuredly be a multi hundred page Day 1.

[Toogeloo]

I haven't read anything at all. Just wanted to check in.

Got two requests...
1) Can anyone tell me which roles should

generally

be claimed Day 1? I might have one worth it.
2) Anyone want to give me cliffnotes about the game to save me some reading ?

[Toogeloo]

{Franky, Toogeloo, Skybird, TWIE}

Unless we start seeing some activity out of these slots soonish, I could get behind voting in that group.

Yeah, well, I prefaced it in the Signup Topic that I won't be very active in a high post game. I have a full time job and a family to support and spend time with. So, I can either not read and post random stuff to look active, or I can post once in a while with game related reads and responses after I've skimmed or read through as much as possible.

I have a phone, so on breaks at work I can sometimes skim through if I'm not talking with other people, other than that, my main times I can post are usually at lunch, provided there isn't a lot of catching up to do, and just before bed. Occasionally, I might be able to get something in when I get home. This isn't new information, and people should know this about me already.

[Toogeloo]

I typically don't. I haven't been joining larges over the past few years, keeping my joins to mini-themes. But the last two games I played have been larges because either A) I like the mod, B) I like the theme, or C) I like the players.

[Toogeloo]

Yeah, well, I prefaced it in the Signup Topic that I won't be very active in a high post game. I have a full time job and a family to support and spend time with. So, I can either not read and post random stuff to look active, or I can post once in a while with game related reads and responses after I've skimmed or read through as much as possible.

Yeah, well my beef is that you haven't done either.

Maybe you should be a vegetarian.

[Toogeloo]

Got two requests...
1) Can anyone tell me which roles should generally be claimed Day 1? I might have one worth it.
2) Anyone want to give me cliffnotes about the game to save me some reading ?

...repeated for emphasis.


Gonna start to skim through now, try and find the actual start of Day 1.

[Toogeloo]

@LQ, Yeah well, that's life. Not going to rushwhen I feel uncomfortable. Doubly so with 3 town factions. Gtmy, you're town but I have like 5% confidence there.

Three?

That's pretty specific. Where did you get that information?

The three human nations. If you were town, that'd be evident.

I'm not sure this is true. My wincon doesn't mention a specific nation at all, but this is some sort of multi-ball, so I'm gonna guess that Titus and I are of separate factions, though how would multiple town factions even work if there is a case for this?

[Toogeloo]

Got two requests...
1) Can anyone tell me which roles should generally be claimed Day 1? I might have one worth it.
2) Anyone want to give me cliffnotes about the game to save me some reading ?

...repeated for emphasis.


Gonna start to skim through now, try and find the actual start of Day 1.

Re: 1: Possibly any negative utility roles that could do more harm to town by not knowing them.
Re: 2: From what memory serves, there's been issues with Wayward and davesaz, davesaz posted a case on Exp scum, there's also been general issues with Exp, i claimed non human that wins with town, molla also claimed non human that wins with town, and there's been issues with Almost50's reads list.

1) Can anyone tell me which roles should generally be claimed Day 1? I might have one worth it.

certain neg utilities. miller (or anything that gives false guilties to investigatives) is an obvious one.

i also think stuff like ascetic and pgo should be first post claims but some ppl would argue w/ me there

K, thx guys.

[Toogeloo]

I'm not sure this is true. My wincon doesn't mention a specific nation at all, but this is some sort of multi-ball, so I'm gonna guess that Titus and I are of separate factions, though how would multiple town factions even work if there is a case for this?

plz read mastin's op stuff: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8100520

i'm not being a smartass, i say that matter-of-factly

I get that, and I know what it means. Nation and Faction are different, which is why Titus' claim of three town factions isn't right.

Loosely speaking, there is at least one town faction. They win if all threats to them are eliminated.

This is where confusion starts to set in. If there is more than one town faction, then for what reason would they be a threat to each other, and why not just be one town all together, or can they only win when the other town factions are eliminated as well since there seems to be a "war" element to the game too?

Up to page 30 is my superskim .

[Toogeloo]

The reason I suspect that Titus and I are separate factions is that she wouldn't make the mistake of thinking town has 3 factions if she had the same wincon as I do.

[Toogeloo]

Titus is just scum

Up to page 33. I'm not feeling this yet. I think the claim of the factions might be town believing one thing, but not having the necessary information to bridge the gap, and therefore possibly putting their foot in their mouth. Most of Titus' posts haven't looked scummy either, and I've been mostly looking at those in my skim. I believe it's more likely that we are both town, just different town factions.

[Toogeloo]

Will finish my skim before bed.

[Toogeloo]

Also, Luna + BB + Toog. Humans need to flip one of these before the end of the game to ensure their win con indeed allows them to win with us.

I am a Human in a Faction that wins when all threats to it are eliminated. My faction name starts with the letter "I" so if that's different than you, we can solve that if necessary. I won't divulge more than that at the moment.

My role, if played correctly, would suggest I won't be alive til anywhere close to end game either. That said, I have little confidence in playing my role correctly, because it's a first for me lol.

[Toogeloo]

Looking at the last vote count from earlier today, Expedience is still leading, though from the last 10ish pages since my entrance, no one has discussed them in any length. Are they just not worth discussing anymore, or are we actively moving in a different direction with all this PGO semantic argumentative that happened for the last half dozen pages?


I have Titus and Almost50 as town at the moment. I haven't really developed deeper reads than that, though I might look into Luna since someone said she claimed non-human aligned with town.

[Toogeloo]

I'm not going to get invested early in this game because if I do, I will lead the town and drive a lynch on cult, and then probably get recruited into that same cult the very night after I lynched them. That's my luck. Another reason is that it takes 15 to lynch and we are so far off from that. Another reason is there are too many players and I can't keep track until this number dwindles down.

Albert

-You could be culted regardless.
-Lynch is based off plurality, not majority. So, you don't

need

to get 15, you just need to get the most at deadline.

I feel like you are making excuses, mate. And trying to site an example that's against your meta doesn't really buy my confidence.

Where is town!tunnel!Titus?

Maybe she took a Prozac?

[Toogeloo]

ABR, I know you somewhat well enough to say that I can generally tell your alignment on Day 1, and I've never really seen you make excuses for your play as town before.

[Toogeloo]

I meant that both Errant + ABR have just now declared their intent to wait until later. I didn't mean that they decided pre/early-game to get out of her way, I meant that I don't like how 2/3 of Stormblade's heads are taking a backseat role when their slot is being townread so heavily.

This is, and always will be, the issue with all Hydras, not just isolated to this particular case.

[Toogeloo]

Why are you softing for SB?

Do you think they require your help?

I assure you, Nahdia is capable of fending for herself, as is ABR.

Idk errant.

I mean their lack of accountability across heads in general, I'm not softing anything. Sure, we always say we treat the Hydra slot as a whole as one player, but it's impossible not to discount the fact they are voiced by multiple people, and that we will agree with thoughts of one head while disagreeing with those of another. Hydra dissonance can create an easy scapegoat for any issues that players may have with that slot, enough so that as long as one head can make sense, most people will generally ignore it.

I actually would be fine with a SB lynch as it stands right now, mainly because I don't feel this is town ABR.

[Toogeloo]

That I don't like ABR + Errant taking a backseat on a heavy townread slot doesn't have much to do with it being a Hydra.

Sure it does. It's townread due to Nahdia, not the other two, so despite dislike of the actions regarding ABR and errant, the slot likely won't have any trouble keeping away from a lynch because people will be hesitant to the townposting on Nahdia's part.

All you've done is voiced your dislike, but unless you put action to your words, you're more or less fine with the way it's going as well and will continue to let ABR and errant do their thing.

[Toogeloo]

Vote: Kuroi

[Toogeloo]

I feel like FA is the type of player that would flip the Monopoly Board and storm out of the room if she landed on an opponent's Boardwalk with a Hotel.

I haven't been able to do any real reading, and the game just keeps getting longer, so I've opted to try a new strategy through Day 1 (and possibly Day 2 and 3), and just like in from time to time, ask anyone if they have any questions of me while I read

at most

the last 10 pages of game.

Did anyone want to discuss my partial claim from earlier, my vote on Multi, or anything else I posted? It may not be wise to ask me what I think of the game state outside of my own posts though, because that would be pretty limited.

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP: Vote on Kuroi*

[Toogeloo]

To be fair, I will also read at least a page or two after my last posts in order to address any questions that come up if I've logged off. But if there continues to be 30+ pages between each of my posts, I'm gonna flat out tell you I won't likely be reading all of them (for now). Typically, I'm ok with reading 30 pages a day, but it's gotten very difficult for me to remember who's who in this game in particular due mostly because while the game might be 28 (which is already a lot), it's actually more due to all the Hydra heads as well making my head spin trying to categorize players.

[Toogeloo]

I feel like FA is the type of player that would flip the Monopoly Board and storm out of the room if she landed on an opponent's Boardwalk with a Hotel.

I never cheated in my whole life and I never flaked when things were bad for me in a game. Thats not even close to what happened here

what do you want me to do against an a... like him? stand here and get insulted?

I have better stuff to do with my life.

stop calling out my name or talking about me or my play style. you have no rights to question me or judge me here. fuck you all for making all my games personal and then accusing me for it.

as I said fire will be on control for a while. I can't deal with this shit

~Ice

You are always on defense about people attacking you when, in most cases no one is, and you are almost always one of the first people to throw stones as well. You take everything, even the most innocent comments or jokes, as personal affronts to your very being many times, and always play the drama queen and talk about how you're physically durressed in real life as a result.

Hell, Bloodborne mafia's end game is nothing but a rant on your part about how shit everyone is and that you were wronged in some way.

[Toogeloo]

That's all I'm going to say about that since it's completely off topic.

[Toogeloo]

It's day 1, what's wrong with a nice easy wagon to work with? Let's not over complicate and elongate what is going to be the longest most disassociating Day 1 mafia game ever.

[Toogeloo]

It's day 1, what's wrong with a nice easy wagon to work with? Let's not over complicate and elongate what is going to be the longest most disassociating Day 1 mafia game ever.

Saga Frontier begs to differ.

Your point still stands though. The problem I have is the fact that Kuroi is like...basically just not defending himself. WT sorta defended themselves, but they're really not saying that much, but what little they say is all bad. It's an inept defense versus no defense, and idk, just doesn't feel like scum would actually just suck this badly at staying alive when there's an infinite number of other people to let the game focus on.

That's what I mean by too easy, and why it gives me pause.

-Cerb

Kuroi is a big boy, and not likely to lose his shit at being the biggest wagon early into Day 1. He just barely hit 2/3rds a majority Lynch, and most Day 1s tend to be super swingy as Lynch leads change frequently. He could just be biding his time til a new flavor of the month pops up. 28 player game and all, getting 15 people to agree on a single lynch is tough, and he could very well be banking on it.

[Toogeloo]

@Nero,

I believe the factions are as follows

1) Human with 3 subfactions based on regions, north/east/west +hunters??
2) lycans plus wulden (although wulden may just be the cult)
3) undead
4) nosferatu
5) vampires
6) cult
7) yellow foxes (whatever Luna is)

My thoughts...
Cult is likely one of Werewolf (Lycan), Vampire, or Undead (if we are assuming Zombie tropes). Not really knowing anything about the flavor itself, these 3 "monsters" are generally known for turning other humans into one of their numbers if they haven't turned them into a meal. Nosferatu in this game are supposed to be some kind of Werewolf+Vampire hybrid, but as far as I always knew, Nosferatu were just vampires, so /shrug. This is more just hypothesis.

As far as the Human Faction goes, while my role PM does specifically state which region and location I am of, the Faction I belong to itself has absolutely no tie in to either of those. I can almost assuredly state there are likely more than 1 Human faction in this game and that breaking them down by Region or Location probably isn't correct.



-Copper joins my town reads. From what I read, he definitely feels town here. I want to say Kling is town as well, but less sure on that slot.
-Whoever said the Kuroi wagon was "too easy," as you can see, it's pretty much evaporating and rarely discussed anymore. Kuroi has lurked out a bit, and other people are taking the limelight. Unless anyone has 100% reason to believe some one is town, can we all just pick a lynch and see it through before we get another 100 pages of content most people aren't going to read? A game this size, and not a singular "vanilla" role, Night Actions are almost assuredly going to tell us more than Day 1 will even get close to telling.

I haven't done a proper read of the last 10 pages or so.

[Toogeloo]

As it stands, my neighborhood is stressing me out more than this thread.
I have a hard time giving opinions on them because it's a big risk lynching any and being wrong.
And i bet this post is going to make them even more mad at me.

I'm just gonna take a break from this game.

Lynching from your neighborhood on Day 1 strictly on the basis you've given isn't really a great move in my opinion. You haven't given anyone any time in your hood to trust or not trust each other. You're paranoia posting more about it than actually letting the reads progress naturally. Mastina isn't going to give you a straight-forward, "they are either aliens or scum" and then not have them all be like "oh we're aliens, yo'." Something of your puzzle is still missing, and lynching isn't going to be the right way to solve that.

[Toogeloo]

@Toog, What else would we be divided by?

I can't specifically state unless I fully divulge my wincon. I've got to assume there are other players with my wincon as well, unless Human is a broad wincon and they prefixes before Human or just for flavor, but suffice to say, I don't have some Regional Human win condition.

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP:

unless Human is a broad wincon and the prefixes before Human are just for flavor

[Toogeloo]

You know what, I'm actually just going to full claim all but my role itself. To be honest, if I die at night, I've done my job anyways, so I think the pros outweigh the cons here.

I belong to the Individual Human faction. I investigate as Northern Tribes for Region and Other for Location, but my wincon specifically says that I am of the Individual Humans and win when all threats to my faction are eliminated.

While my Region says Northern Tribes, that is the one and only time it's mentioned in my Role PM, and it doesn't suggest to me in any way shape or form that I am specifically grouped with them, in fact, my win con basically does the opposite by saying I am an individual.

I think this information will prove more useful out in the open.

[Toogeloo]

Actually, there is more info in my Role PM that could also be useful.

-I am not a Hunter, but it says that Hunters learned their trades from my family.
-It says I am settling a score between myself, bandit Wuldens that turned cult, and hunters that became enemy Nosferatu.

[Toogeloo]

So are we taking bets on what faction toog gets recruited by and on what day or....?

I am town right now. My role is specifically designed to get me killed at night if I play it right.

If I am still alive anywhere near end game, I need to be lynched or vigged. Promise me.

[Toogeloo]

And the crowd goes wild with this information...



...seriously, where'd everyone go?

[Toogeloo]

Alright, fuck ya'all, I'm out.

[Toogeloo]

Cult would never recruit me now, I've made too big of a target of myself.

Mafia will want me dead just in case.
Town will want me dead just in case.
I want to die "on purpose" at night.
I've also stated that if I am alive at end game, I need to die.

None of those scream "recruit that guy," to me.

after all the shitty "not out any info" alarms the whole day long you just come out and full claimed for us for what?

I never said anything about "we shouldn't out info," other players do that. If you know me, you know I love claims since they give info to work with. I would say I've partially claimed, fully claimed, or at least breadcrumbed in almost every game I've ever played.

[Toogeloo]

@Toog: You've made yourself negative utility to every faction including your own. GJ champ.

Explain. If I get roleblocked or killed, I've successfully fulfilled my roles objective, so I'd like to understand why you think I'm negative utility.

[Toogeloo]

The whole, "protect your role with your life" thing is far too passive in a game of this size with as many mechanics as it has. If scum have fake claims, then they probably know about the Individual Humans. Scum already have more information to work with in general. Region and Location I've given have nothing to do with my role, but maybe they have something to do with someone else's role. If that is a positive amount of information for them, then it's a boon. If it's negative for myself, it's still a boon because of my role.

I gave this a lot of thought, trust me. I guarantee you all that there was more to gain from my flavor claim than there was to lose.

Not gonna draw you a picture Toog.

Mom take away your crayons?

[Toogeloo]

I'll tell you what, if town loses solely on the basis of my claim, I will retire from mafia forever.

[Toogeloo]

Unfortunately that's pretty subjective.

Stop trying to be a mafia purist and understand that different mentalities play this game. Town needs info, it craves it, and that info not only comes from reads, but from gaining insight as to overall setup picture as well, which in this particular game screams as a necessity. One claim from a not so important role isn't going to be the nail in the coffin. I didn't claim cop or doctor, hell I didn't claim anything other than flavor.


Now the question becomes, with this information, are you going to just mope around and berate my play, or are you going to do something constructive with it?

[Toogeloo]

@Toog, what the fuck man?

Same question to you. I just gave you some info, so go drink your vodka and show me what it helps you with.

[Toogeloo]

So many god damn House avatars, and House isn't even playing the game anymore.

[Toogeloo]

Yes but it's also reasonable to assume in a game setup like this that there will be multiple flips at night and then we can claim, without making the game easier for cult/scum factions on Day 1.

It's also reasonable to assume in a game this large that scum probably have fake claims so as to not trip over each other when a claim is called for. My flavor claim does nothing to help them in that regard as they likely already have some insight to one or more town factions so they can claim them without fear.

We can play this circular logic all day if you like.

PEdit: House was part of the Cane and Able Hydra that Wake is now sole player of, and iirc, he is still banned, so not likely.

[Toogeloo]

@Toog
From your flavor can you tell if the scum faction is nosferatu or wulden?

Wulden are likely cult based on my flavor, and judging by the wording in the flavor, Nosferatu are ex-Hunters that have turned evil, so "maybe" mafia, or could be the multi-ball team.

[Toogeloo]

Some people should not be allowed in theme games

Go outside and kick some stones. Come back when you're ready to play mafia.

[Toogeloo]

but "If I'm the cause of this loss I'll never play again" on D1 is a dumb statement.

It's deadpan sarcasm, and not designed to be intelligent.

[Toogeloo]

Some people should not be allowed in theme games

Go outside and kick some stones. Come back when you're ready to play mafia.

Unfortunately that's pretty subjective.

Stop trying to be a mafia purist and understand that different mentalities play this game.

touché

[Toogeloo]

Oh and people stop fucking claiming Jesus. Pants are incredible!

I wear my pants on my head though .

[Toogeloo]

OK, but TlT doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

No, but it sure does look funny... (o)

[Toogeloo]

Unvote

I'll be back when the town collective decides the day should be over and needs votes to get a lynch done. Until then, feel free to continue driving up the page count.

[Toogeloo]

Hey look, 5 more pages and yet nothing new.

[Toogeloo]

I have changed from skimming to skipping.

Been here for a while.

Vote: Kuroi

Please tell me a hammer is close.

[Toogeloo]

The red text of truth in all forms, and its accompaniment, the Blue Text of Truth are banned on MS.

Not all forms were truth tells, but people used them as truth tells.

so I'm asking the mod: Am I allowed to use the Red?

If you have a town PM then you'd know the color is blue though, so why would you argue that red and blue were both banned, yet be fine with the blue and not the red?

[Toogeloo]

The fuck are you on about? No one is talking about Role PM colours?

I was exhausted yesterday after walking around a park 5 times (10+ km) catching pokemon and waiting for eggs to hatch in Pokemon Go... I came home, saw the post from Almost with red and blue text (since it pops on mafiablack) and then you say something about red and blue being banned and my initial thought was that role pm color was being discussed. I passed out shortly after, so I really didn't know anything about what I was talking about.

This should actually be a good indication that the game is in a bad state though. I'm obviously not reading, and I'm almost positive I'm not the only one, so when I do feel like I need to comment on something, it's like I pop in and just comment on some half sentence I heard while walking by someone's open window.

Unless you have a 100% town clear on Kuroi, would you all just please vote him so we can get a flip and go into Night and let some Night actions give us direction for tomorrow?

[Toogeloo]

For the love of god...

...someone please...

[Toogeloo]

Kuroi's PM:

You are an Individual Vampire Doctor.
[REDACTED - FACTIONAL]

dram's PM:

You are an Undead Risen Slave.
[REDACTED - FACTIONAL]

These two players are obviously scum due to the REDACTED - FACTIONAL portion of their PM. The redacted information is almost assuredly factional chat and/or team buddies. Titus and Molla didn't have any such redaction, and both were Humans, so they are almost assuredly town flips. Multi-town game doesn't necessarily indicate that the towns are against each other, even though there flavor might suggest it.

Based on speculation of flips, I want to say dramonic was possibly our cult since his PM is the only PM thus far to state that at least one member is required to be alive to win.


I attempted to scan the location of dramonic last night, but I got a "no result" returned, which suggests I was blocked as I see nothing in dram's flavor to suggest that targeting him would cause a location scan to fail.

[Toogeloo]

Also, as a heads up, I haven't read anything other than Day 2 start flips, the rest of the page that followed the flips, and my results from my night actions.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo, is your win condition related to the treaty or does it just say something about threats to the individual human faction?

I have the exact same wincon as BBMolla, color and all.

[Toogeloo]

Vote: Salt Squad

I could vote for LLD too, but I think SS's claim, and her desire to stay alive to get a night action off, is more damning between the two.

[Toogeloo]

Kuroi is definitely scum for more than just the Redacted - Factional portion of his role pm too. Don't forget he claimed Human Doctor before he was lynched.

[Toogeloo]

I refuse to believe that Kuroi, who lied and said he was Human, flipped Vampire with redacted factional abilities, can have the same wincon with Salt Squad and not have Salt be scum. I mean, holy shit, his FACTION info is redacted... that means Individual Vampires have Faction information that needs to be redacted, not Kuroi, but Individual Vampires. Salt Squad needs rope today.

[Toogeloo]

WT is definitely not something we should even be entertaining lynching given the info we have at the moment. Possible he's just bad at posting or a VI, but he's almost certainly the low-hanging fruit option of the day, and should be disregarded as of now. A50 and I are definitely on the same wave-length today, and I can definitely back the decision to lynch LLD first for cult fear. Salt needs to be vigged tonight if we still have a role capable of doing so.

Unvote;
Vote: LLD

[Toogeloo]

Catchup through Page 178 during break... some comments:

Why are we so certain that Wulden is cult again?

My Role PM specifically mentions that Wulden are cult in the flavor.

This is the friggin proof FA. Mastins post: They win if all threats to them are eliminated. EVERY SINGLE WIN CON WE'VE SEEN(AND YOU'RE OWN, ASSUMING YOU'RE TOWN): "You win if all threats to are eliminated".

There is nothing to suggest certain factions aren't threats to each other, just as there is nothing to suggest that other factions can't be threatened by each other. My main point is that Kuroi, an Individual Vampire, has redacted FACTIONAL information, and that SS also claimed to be an Individual Vampire, so therefore, it would suggest that SS also would have that redacted factional information as well. Kuroi LIED and claimed HUMAN before he was lynched, and then flipped Vampire, so why would he do that unless he was against the town? So if they both share the same wincon, and one of them lied, then it's safe to assume they both are against town.

[Toogeloo]

My Role PM specifically mentions that Wulden are cult in the flavor.

More specifically (while still paraphrased), my flavor states that one of my enemies are Wulden that were once bandits but are now cult.

[Toogeloo]

Will finish my skim-catchup later.

[Toogeloo]

Caught up to this quote....

You mean besides toog and molla?

Toog was claimed Human day 1 o3o

No, I think the question was, why didn't you try to recruit me on Night 1 since I claimed Human?


I hate all the dismissals at Kuroi and making the assumption he must be town simply because his wincon doesn't say greater than 50%. We already know this is multi-ball. He has redacted information, and he lied. It's

possible

he's not the main mafia team, but I certainly don't believe he was town in the least. dram might be the main mafia team, or cult, given his wincon is different, but I refuse to believe that all players that have "when all threats are eliminated" as their wincon are automatically town, especially if flipped players lied about their race and have information that has been redacted from their role PM.

[Toogeloo]

Like, people are literally guessing he was an idiot and thought he was scum... who honestly could make this mistake?

"Oh, der... I am a Vampire, I must be scum, but mastina didn't tell me who my scum buddies are, so I'll just lie and claim Human and try to find them later."

[Toogeloo]

I share Dram's win condition.

I don't know anything about treaties.

I do know that Alexis Galenos was the heroine and Dmitri Damanos was evil.

If you were to flip, would you have redacted factional information?

Faction is your WinCon and you can't be say, West Empire Faction and be scum. We know that from Titus' flip.

Similarly, you can't say that any flip thus far that isn't the same as yours is town if you really wanted to argue it. If they don't have the same wincon as you, you aren't even aligned with them technically speaking.

People fighting lynches based on what they think the wincons should say if they were scum is stupid. All we know is that this is multi-ball, and that one of the factions will say they win when they control over 50% of the remaining players. Hell, loosely speaking, dram's win-condition requires them to be over 50% of the remaining players, so how are you so certain it's not a scum wincon?

Okay, well Mastin did say:

"Factions, loosely speaking, have general trends, sharing race, location, and nation. These traits are not, however, universal."

And I guess it might be quite true because Titus + BBMolla all share the same Location/Nation/Race. Presumably there's quite a few others who share that too. All I know is I share the wincon of either Titus/BBMolla and I don't share the same Location/Nation/Race combo, which is why I've been saying that race is totally unreliable. I would think it has some reliability now, but not nearly to the extent that people like A50/Copper would have us believe. I'm seriously finding it hard to believe it'd be close to 90% homogoneity, as suggested.

It's not 100% reliable, no, but flipping more player roles can assist in determining the overall reliability, especially those players who have questionable races and claims to begin with. My Role PM states Wulden are cult and evil. If someone comes in and claims a Wulden scan on a player, that player pretty much has to claim Wulden and then hope that the skepticism of the majority will save them. We flip that player, and they turn out to actually be what we would elude as a town role, then we also learn more to the overall setup as well.

The general majority can scan Location and Nation, these two flavors don't seem alignment indicative, but might have a role to play in some other way (ie. certain actions can only be used on them). Race cops are rarer, and I feel like in general, their results carry more weight in the detection of scum and town. Faction Cops will probably be the rarest, and their results should have the most weight as to the alignment of a player.

[Toogeloo]

Until I get definitive proof other wise, I will auto-assume any flip with Redacted Factional information is scum, and if they had a fake claim it'd likely be there (as Mastina pointed out somewhere).

[Toogeloo]

Would they all flip with "REDACTED-FACTIONAL" as well?

[Toogeloo]

So, why would dram's wincon contain the caveat that at least one of that faction needs to survive to win?

[Toogeloo]

So, why would dram's wincon contain the caveat that at least one of that faction needs to survive to win?

Because presumably if we're all dead, the New Humanity Treaty won't benefit us anymore...?
-Nahdia

Is that your PT? It's an argument that New Treaty faction is weaker than actual town if it's a town faction, which makes zero sense.

[Toogeloo]

Like, yes. We're partially a survivor faction. If anything, the fact that Kuroi's wincon does NOT contain the caveat that one of them needs to live proves they don't have PT, by the way.

But he still has REDACTED FACTIONAL info in his PM.

[Toogeloo]

I almost said "If we have any docs/watchers please be on Luna" but I guess I figured it'd be obvious and forgot -_-'

If what you feel is true, our Doctor is dead. Kling seems like some kind of Watcher though with his results claimed on ASOIAF.

[Toogeloo]

This game...

[Toogeloo]

Why would a Human

want

to become a Vampire recruit in the first place?

[Toogeloo]

Why would a Human

want

to become a Vampire recruit in the first place?

I shouldn't have to explain to you how having a confirmed town wincon is beneficial.

Unvote;
Vote: Salt Squad

[Toogeloo]

I'm sorry, I want an explanation how changing your wincon is something anyone would want. It wasn't going to take much for me to vote SS in the first place, especially since they were my original vote of the day, but if they wanted to dodge the question and be snarky as well, then they don't deserve any further response from me as well.

Maybe I'm old school, but a change in wincon signifies to me that a person just culted, and it's certainly convenient that the only person who might corroborate this role claim died on day 1. All the same, I don't trust, nor do I want a change in my faction, nor would I understand why anyone would for that matter.

[Toogeloo]

Could you please confirm that the four flips we've had so far aren't Scum?

<<< No, I cannot. This is where your own role PM, and the mechanics post, comes into play. The informed minority in this game is scum. The uninformed majority in this game is town. This, I can say, because it is universal to any mafia game. How it manifests is given in the mechanics post. >>>

This statement cannot co-exist with this statement...

<<< I have expressed multiple times that I will attempt to clarify things if asked. If the clarification doesn't help, ask again and I will try to clarify even further. But I feel like I need to make an announcement on this subject all the same:
As a starting point...fuck special mechanics and treat this game like any normal mafia game. What conclusions, off of your and flipped, roles would you then make? Add in the mechanics post only

after

having done this. Not before. It will help like 90% of the questions I get asked. This is still a MAFIA game. It, therefore, follows basic mafia principles present in any mafia game. (I am not reinventing the wheel, here.) The remainder are, of course, why I continue to clarify as much as I can. >>>

[Toogeloo]

Let me simplify my stance today.

Mod won't elaborate on whether we have town flips or mafia flips thus far, but is encouraging us to play this game as if it were mafia none the less. So since we can't be 100% sure what alignment each player flipped is, we cannot make associations off of those flips.

Therefore, my position is that we have a cop guilty on a player. This player is claiming a cult power and making it sound town. This player is also claiming to be aligned with the same faction as a player who lied about their race and faction before they were lynched. Simply put, playing mafia, we lynch the cop result against the player claiming to cult town players to a different win condition.

[Toogeloo]

I will not be moving my vote the rest of the day, and I will be prod dodging as needed til a lynch occurs.

[Toogeloo]

Vote: LLD

Isolationist wincon suggests there are no good Wulden, and with three dead Isolationists, I think going after the Cult today would be the best course.

[Toogeloo]

I hope there is at least one member of the Undead Risen Slaves still alive out there. It would be a total dick move for them to be completely wiped out after the scan was responsible for the first scum lynch and then they lose as a result.

[Toogeloo]

I have a successful location scan from last night. The result was Great Ridge, which only town players have flipped from. Not 100% confirming of alignment obviously, but I feel better about it than I would if the result came back Great Lakes instead.

[Toogeloo]

Go ahead and Lynch me if you must but nosferatu visited Luna fox and was the only person to do so and Luna fox died overnight

Rach Marie also checked Luna fox so there is my watcher proof

My whole undead slave faction but me is now dead

Why do ppl want to Lynch Kling? What happened in the game.before this

I tried to visit Luna last night, so if you didn't see me, I would like to know where my action went, especially considering I got a successful location scan off.

@Toogeloo, Mathblade, DGB, Wake - what do you guys think is the best course of action?

LLD is confirmed Wulden, and she should be our lynch today. If Wulden are Cult, and all Wulden need to be eliminated (as per mafia wincon), then it's highly unlikely that there is a friendly Wulden. Funny that you scanned Mathblade's faction last night, because Mathblade was my location scan. Mathblade is located at the Great Ridge, the same location as Titus and BBMolla. So I'm banking on more than likely town.

(Sorry Math, I wear my pants on my head, so more info that more than likely confirms you town and backs up rb's claim as well)

LLD is a good lynch and probably scum but honestly if she's a scum role cop and not human, I don't see much harm in having one of the two vig target her.

If she's scum, she's Cult Scum, and since she was scanned on Night 1 by the Mafia Faction she needs to be nipped in the bud early before a Cult can get out of control. She's not likely aligned with Salt Squad as it doesn't make any sense for all that info to be outed on Day 2 if they were aligned together.


I really don't want to lynch Bacde any time soon. If he's the last remaining member of the Undead Risen Slaves, he's the only thing keeping Luna and the rest of that hood from losing the game as well. We can deal with it later if need be, but as of right now he should be extremely low priority.


As I mentioned earlier, I targeted Luna last night, so for Bacde to not see me is weird.

I am a Bodyguard (as I said, if I play my role right, I want to die at night). On Night 1, I'm pretty sure I was blocked because I got a no result on my location scan (my targets for Night 1 are irrelevant). Last Night I targeted Mathblade for Location scan and Luna for Bodyguarding. I got Great Ridge back as the Location Scan result, but Luna ended up dead irregardless.

[Toogeloo]

Toog you got the location result of what just to verify?

The flavor of my result claimed that Mathblade is at the Great Ridge, the actual result just said my target was at the Great Ridge.

The flavor of my Bodyguarding suggested that I was ready to bodyguard Luna but I can't figure out what happened.

[Toogeloo]

More LLD votes please. Bacde can wait, LLD was scanned Wulden on Night 1, and has the greatest likelihood of flipping Cult Leader.

Nero, I targeted Luna with my BG and Math with my scan. One action failed, the other did not, so I wasn't blocked. On Night 1, my scan did fail though, which suggests that I was blocked on that night.

[Toogeloo]

Luna's death is equally surprising because I would have expected a faction cop to get some Doctor love if one exists last night.

Doctor was lynched Day 1. Jailkeeper was killed Night 1. I'm probably the only protection role left, and I did target Luna last night.

Now about LLD -- They claimed Individual Wulden. At a time when race = scum was pushed vehemently to everyone and right now still seems to be. I want to see this slot become active so I can see if they are telling the truth or full of shit. If they don't post in 24 hours then we likely have two scums identified.

Look at the Isolationist Wincon. It specifically says

all

Wulden must be defeated in addition to controlling 50% of the town, suggesting that the Wulden are either opposing Mafia or Cult.

And Holy Fuck people, Bacde is the last remaining member of the Risen Dead Faction which means if he dies, they all lose. There is no need to lynch him today when LLD is practically confirmed a scummer. Mafia likely didn't kill her so that it would be one less lynch against them since town needs to eliminate all threats. I'm operating under the assumption that Wulden are Cult because A) Mastina said there is a Cult in this game, and B) My flavor heavily suggests that WULDEN ARE CULT!.

[Toogeloo]

Oh, Toogelo's Northern Tribes too, iirc.

I am indeed.

[Toogeloo]

What would have redirected me, and to where then? Because that is a lot of redirections. If I too got redirected to RAM, I would have died and not them >_>.

Maybe more plausibly...
Bacde was redirected and Luna was Strongman'd, so I was still on Luna, but my protection was bypassed. This would allow scum to remove the watcher and not worry about protection as well. Is there anything to suggest this isn't the most likely scenario?

[Toogeloo]

I think toog is town for the way he claimed day 1. I don't know if his northen claim today which is opposing his individual human claim .

I belong to the Individual Human faction. I investigate as Northern Tribes for Region and Other for Location, but my wincon specifically says that I am of the Individual Humans and win when all threats to my faction are eliminated.

[Toogeloo]

When (ok, ok, if) LLD flips scum, make sure to look back at the votes and check which people needed a little "extra" convincing to move their vote from low hanging bacde to LLD. Check for probable motivation for protecting LLD from a lynch before realizing that wasn't a possibility.

[Toogeloo]

Now go get fucking lost

[Toogeloo]

Hey Frozen... I saw a quote today and for some reason thought of you.

"Studies show that Women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the Men who mention it."

So you make sure you share that with your significant other .

[Toogeloo]

I was mostly just pointing out how dumb Toog was being.

I was referring to beginning of day when bacde was a very easy choice to start momentum on.

[Toogeloo]

We just killed Scum from West Empire (Salt Squad), which means that I think we've already killed at least one of the the West Empire EXCEPTIONS to the rule which means it's much more likely the remaining members adhere to the GENERAL rule.

Mathblade's flip shows exception to the rule of Great Ridge flips as well now.

Also, Mathblade's flavor says he is immune to nightkills.

@MASTINA: Does being immune to nightkills include strongman kills as well?

I got a Location result of Erimos on a player last night, which is also one of the locations listed in Math's fake claim.

[Toogeloo]

I'm also starting to wonder the legitness of an "actual" cult this game. My flavor stated that Wulden were cult, but they are obviously Mafiagroup vs. Isolationist Mafiagroup.

For now, I want to put pressure on ASOIAF for their push on Bacde yesterday, only to be persuaded to go for LLD after the obvious scum was obvious.

Vote: ASOIAF

I could be persuaded of other votes with good reasoning, but I'm not voting Wake, rb, or bacde for sure today... probably not DGB either.

[Toogeloo]

My guess is that with as many hits to both factions as there have been, it's possible scum might be lying low. I'd be cool with putting pressure on scummier lurkers. Day 4, 5 dead scum... We can take a few risks if we need to.

Are we guessing 5v5v1vTown at game start?

[Toogeloo]

I was blocked on Night 1, so a role blocker is more than likely in the game (probably on the Wulden side since Isolationists had a redirector).

I don't think rb is the right place to lynch today, I liked his actions for the most part yesterday. I wouldn't say he's a strong town read, but I would say there are so many better options than him to pick from.

[Toogeloo]

Cult seems like it would be the biggest threat if we haven't killed one yet and it's day 4. There are way too many clears. Like, Bacde could easily be Undead and got culted, but the race cops wouldn't even know, and I don't know if it would even matter.

But you can't cult hunt with no information.a took to go on. To do so would just be witch burning, and really accomplishes nothing unless we get really lucky.

Bacde is undead, and I remember someone saying only humans can be culted or something to that extent at some point in this game. He's also the only survivor remaining in his private faction, a faction that got us one scum and helped feed us info on others after the results of Day 2. I refuse to lynch him unless there is no other options to pick from, and from where I stand, there are loads of better options including useless lurkers.

Pedit: I don't like that one head was gungho for lynching bacde while the other head realized that LLD was in fact outed scum and appeared to be coaching yourself to realize the futility of pushing a bacde lynch. It's similar to the way Mathblade pushed bacde, except one of your heads was at least smart enough to change your vote.

You want to come at me calling me cult? All you're doing is gaslighting cult propaganda when we have no information regarding that faction to begin with. Let the Salem witch trials begin, mirite?

[Toogeloo]

Besides, I'm a bodyguard. I need to die at night, so if we start getting to a point where Lylo seems to be the forgone conclusion, and I'm still alive, I've already instructed you to lynch me without hesitatio.

[Toogeloo]

Because your bacde case was the low hanging fruit option, and was shit. I wasn't going to let it go then, just as I'm not going to let it go now.

[Toogeloo]

If you were scum reading LLD, there wouldn't have been pause for you to go, "Oh, I get it now, LLD must be scum because the Isolationist wincon suggests it," after I had made that blatantly clear in a previous post.

[Toogeloo]

lynching you in lylo is stupid cuase there if your culted for real your just a recruited person and reacruiter will likely endgame us can't a town you understand this?

I'm just reiterating what I told everyone Day 1 when I claimed.

Pedit: I did call you out, as I did with everyone voting bacde. He was clearly the mislynch bait against LLD. Wulden who posted early in the day would have been pushing his lynch early until it became evident that LLD was toast.

[Toogeloo]

stop trying to apear like hey I got LLD while you were opposing lynching her

LLD was an outed scum becuase of her day 2 claim.

There is no credit for you in that lynch

And yet you still went for a bacde lynch early in the day on a read rather than the confirmed scum that apparently you were also scum reading.

[Toogeloo]

Heading to bed, I can't stay up all night to argue with you.

[Toogeloo]

LLD was outed by the Isolationists. Basically, Day 2 was mafia team 1 vs. mafia team 2 vs. bacde for who to lynch. Securing the Isolationist lynch helped drive the lynch on LLD.

I reread page 1, and I think we are making a few errors here...

All factions with a non-human entity have a one use human recruitment power. This isn't the Cult, though it sounds almost cult like. By the sounds of it, this action fails on some individuals naturally, but also fails if the same human player is targeted by two different recruitmemts again the same time. This is the only thing I saw in regards to Human recruitment.

The sentence afterwards says there is a cult in this game, be warned. No limitation on who the Cult can claim. I'm thinking we've mistakenly assumed only humans can be culted.

[Toogeloo]

The opening flavor more or less outlines all 5 factions really. I don't typically read flavor, but this seems to line up with all the flips so far.

[Toogeloo]

Mastin is actually a goddess.

fix'd

[Toogeloo]

There's no case, were doing it live

[Toogeloo]

so rb and toog how do you feel about nos? What do you think of DGBs sheepy baa baa vote on Nero to make bacde happy?

Nosferatu is a complete blank. I can't even recall one post they've made the entire game, a single stance they've taken, or any other relevant information regarding their slot.

If DGB is scum, she's been happy to bus her team, and I'm fine with that for the time being.


Just a quick overview of the player list...
1. Heartless (cool with this slot for now)
3. Bacde (cool with this slot for now)
7. Almost50 (cool with this slot for now)
8. Nosferatu (could lynch)
10. Wayward Thinker (could lynch)
12. davesaz (could lynch)
14. Wake88 (cool with this slot for now)
15. Tim (could lynch)
16. No Retreat (cool with this slot for now)
17. A Song of Ice and Fire (scum read)
20. rb (cool with this slot for now)
23. Expedience (could lynch)
25. TheWayItEnds (could lynch)
26. DrippingGoofball (cool with this slot for now)
27. Toogeloo (scum read)
28. RachMarie (cool with this slot for now)

[Toogeloo]

Toog, do you think A50's PGO claim is legit? I don't.

I think that even if the claim itself isn't legit, there was no point for him to put himself out there like he did on Day 1 and claim it without some kind of intention. I'm not overly concerned about his slot to be frank, and I think that if we aren't lynching my scum read, then I would be fine with lynching a forgettable player.

Isolationists took a pretty hefty hit on Night 2, Wulden have taken a bit of hit as well. Cult generally likes to lay low in order to recruit members for as long as possible. Low input players probably hold the greatest chance of hitting anything anti-town. So for now, I'm cool with active players and could lynch someone who hasn't had an impact on the game state.

[Toogeloo]

rb is weird today

he is posting really really different from his confident arrogant "I got this game" in day 2

I feel this is a really good shot for hitting cult.

~Ice

So even if you're right, and rb has been culted, that still doesn't get us any closer to finding the cult leader themselves.

[Toogeloo]

If we lynch rb and he's not cult, then we've made it even worse by lynching more than likely town, keeping cult numbers intact, and allowing them further recruiting.

We can play this game back and forth, but it doesn't change the fact that lynching what we think "might" be a recruit is still subotimal play. At best, all we've done is stall the cult assuming they recruit every night, at worse we've strengthened them even more so. Cult has to be dealt with by clipping the head of the snake, not working backwards.

PEdit: You are my biggest scum read. If you had read the rest of my post, you'd know what my position is.

[Toogeloo]

in my topic your saying I was whiteknighting LLD.

I never claimed you were White Knighting LLD. I claimed you opted to go for low hanging fruit instead of obvious scum despite you claiming you knew LLD was obvscum and felt the need to "pressure" bacde instead.

[Toogeloo]

I don't buy into paranoia based lynches, sorry, and I'm certainly not going to hope that we are lynching a peon instead of possibly hitting more threatening targets.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote;
Vote: Wayward Thinker

[Toogeloo]

Also, I feel like two mafia teams of 3 is extremely weak in a 28 player game. Hell, combined they are barely 20% of the player base. Then you have to assume cross kills.

I still don't see there being a Serial Killer either, and there's no flavor to suggest it's existence.

My guess is that the game started at:
4-5 Mafia Faction 1
4-5 Mafia Faction 2
---There's nothing wrong with having lopsided Multi Mafia teams, one could be a four man while the other a five man, it just depends on their power level. I could see a three man, but it'd have to be a really powerful team. Two three man teams seems really low though.

1-2 Cult
---One Cult at the start of the game could be really weak for that faction considering there is a lot of Kills at night, and many are protection bypassing. This is assuming the Cult even works like a traditional one. If we are dealing with a varied Cult, who knows how many they started with or how their recruiting works.

15-18 Town of varying factions.
---The obvious here is that there is no true town faction. As long as you have the same generic town wincon, you are on town. The exception to the rule is the Survivor faction, which still makes no sense to me.


IRT the Survivor Faction, the thought just occurred to me that maybe they can win with town or scum so long as at least 1 member is still alive. It doesn't change anything, but that possibility seems way more friendly to their wincon than the worse alternative of only winning with town and having a surviving member.


Anyone happen to know if the Vampires recruited a Human to their ranks yet?

@bacde

: Has the Undead faction attempted to recruit a Human to it's ranks yet? (simple yes/no, no names)

[Toogeloo]

Why WT?

The best alternative of the leading lynches, imo.

[Toogeloo]

Why do you think Exp is town?

When did I say that?

[Toogeloo]

I don't think you did, so you scum read him? But you think WT is a better lynch?

WT has more support. iirc, you're the only person voting Expedience right now.

[Toogeloo]

I don't understand why this has to be a Black or White thing. This game is already convoluted enough. To quote Boromir, "One simply does not simply have a Scum or Town read on every player in this game."

[Toogeloo]

On a side-note:
I do apologize for the delay.
As-is, I'm still not 100% positive I made no mod errors, but it took me this long just to get what I did. I was exhausted six hours ago, yet alone right now.

I do apologize, but not a chance in hell any questions you have for me get answered tonight.
It's 3:15 am. I get up at 6 am. I should've been in bed over 3 hours ago, so I'm going to bed...like...right now. Sorry. My devotion to y'all only goes so far. <3

From Day 3 Start.

<<< Not to mention, my statement in 6278 where I acknowledged the possibility of them having occurred, but refused to say whether any had or had not. I will inform any player of mod error if I have made one over a private channel. >>>

[Toogeloo]

what did toog do?

we could lynch toog

Lynch the guy who's been white knighting you! Your whole demeanor has gotten quite rough as of late though, and you're posting without reading evidently. I think I'm done being nice to you, you can sleep in whatever bed you make.

I tried to Bodyguard Luna Night 2. You didn't see me, apparently.

Unvote;
Vote: Tim

[Toogeloo]

Heartless, rach Marie, a song, rb all conf town to me

Explain how they are all

conf

town? I'm guessing you don't have innos on all of them.

That said, I do like all of them for town as well.

[Toogeloo]

there is no actual controversy over my slot at this point

its all made up by people who haven't read a post in over 100 pages

The irony...

[Toogeloo]

Unvote;
Vote: davesaz

Tim is good too, but I'll go where ever the most support is.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote

Not sure if that was L-1 or not, but let's make absolutely sure everything is hashed out before proceeding.

[Toogeloo]

dave came back as race human verified by someone I am town reading

so Im pursuing another scum read

simple

And you hope there is no chance that they are scum together, right? Not even cult, or something? I'm mildly curious why dave would have redacted info, unless he's just saying it's redacted to avoid fully claiming. That said, I couldn't care less on some of these lynch options.

[Toogeloo]

So, just cut to the chase...

Are you a member of the Individual Human Faction, yes or no?

[Toogeloo]

I was hoping for town to see things w/o me having to say it aloud bc too much info is as harmful as too little info (since info shared in public is for both town and scum to see).

You realize that scum have chat together, right? Information is better out than in in almost every possible scenario you can possibly come up with. Scum with a nose can sniff out info and share it amongst it's members. Players that have info and die with it don't help the town in any way either. But hey, I like early claims and breadcrumbing everything, so what do I know...?

[Toogeloo]

What's your read on Tim and Nosferatu, Nero?

[Toogeloo]

I think the location checker has been even more useless. There hasn't been a time where I scanned location and known what I would even do with the information.

[Toogeloo]

I'll back any of the popular wagons right now. I don't have a preference. None of my town reads are being wagoned, so I'll throw my vote where ever it's going to do the most good.

[Toogeloo]

Vote: WaywardThinker

[Toogeloo]

We now know the recruiting/culting is more reliant on Race not nation or location.

Say what now? We don't know anything about the Cult.

[Toogeloo]

For the record...
Location Scans:
Night 1 - dramonic (returned no result, suggesting I was blocked)
Night 2 - Mathblade (Great Ridge)
Night 3 - DrippingGoofball (Erimos)

[Toogeloo]

We now know the recruiting/culting is more reliant on Race not nation or location.

Say what now? We don't know anything about the Cult.

Forget about the cult and talk to me about your checks.

Wait, why are we just forgetting about you saying we know things we don't? What do you want to know about my checks?

[Toogeloo]

Rach, is Wake planning on joining on WT, or are you two at odds on that read?

[Toogeloo]

how would you know he was scum with a nos check?

This is a pretty good question tbqh.

[Toogeloo]

Apparently, D4 has had so many votecounts, that it's too many to fit into one post.

I blame you for being too good a mod and giving us updated Vote Counts almost every page.

[Toogeloo]

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, while I tend not to put much stock into flavor for information, it seems strangely influential in this game. Like how my wincon mentions both Nosferatu and Wulden as the bad guys (though Wulden are said to be Cult in my flavor).

[Toogeloo]

Just to reclarify my flavor, in light of Rach's race claim...

My character (who's family taught Hunters how to Hunt apparently), is in a 3 way dispute with his family's honor on the line or some shit. It's between me, Wuldens who were once Bandits but are now Cult, and Ex-Hunter Nosferatu that I consider my enemies. I paraphrased of course, but there is room for interpretation that it's plausible I may not want to kill all Nosferatu, just Ex-Hunters.

[Toogeloo]

rach/wake claimed nosferatu?

Yes, which can't be nearly as weird than if you were to claim to be Rach/Wake

[Toogeloo]

Good Luck Town!

[Toogeloo]

I think too many people are putting LLD in "lynched because of guilty" pile. Rach was an Individual Nosferatu, so if LLD was even slightly more active, she probably would have easily slipped out of that noose because she would have had the backing of Rach that "race does not equal faction" as it was hammered into us from the rules.

Basically, while race did not mean faction, town was able to throw that caution to the wind and probably got lucky for it. If Rach had been investigated, and we had a Wulden flip first, this could have gone an entirely different way and then using the argument that a player was guilty by race check would seem silly.

[Toogeloo]

Mastina also claimed that the Town Champs never used their special vig shots which would have been more negative town utility that she was hoping for.