Gistou (Over!)

[Nahdia]

it was probably best the undead were given the possibility of a traitor. yeah it made us blow up but if it hadnt been there, we would have been insanely powerful.

pretty funny that we tried recruiting No Retreat who ended up being the most wary of the New Humanity Treaty in the end.

[Nahdia]

i still thing there was a crazy excess of strongmen in this game though.

[ActionDan]

This was a very well designed game. Factions / roles / wincons / abilities / flavor / etc. were both enjoyable to read and play with.

As Mastin as since realized though, balance was off. And limiting the power of the BP-vigs and race checkers would be the fix (and not tampering with Vanilla's as FA suggested).

Do not think of Strongmen as "BP-vig Counters". Sure, they are, but they do not define a scum team as "strong". Instead they are tools to alleviate the vast amounts of pressure from town power roles. As soon as they are gone, via those same BP-vigs or any other method, the scum team has no reasonable way to get rid of them.

4-man scum teams in a 28-player game inherently makes that scum team weak, recruiting power not withstanding. 6/8 of the main scum teams, and all of the cult were vulnerable to race checks. town and scum combined had 7 race checkers in addition to the 2 cops explicitly in town's control. the random chance for anyone of those to hit any scum vulnerable to them is ridiculously high.

My solutions would be to give the vigs only a 1-shot communal BP so the cumulative number of shots it would take for them all to die is decreased from 6-->4. I am on the fence whether or not all their targets should die as well, since they are effective cops as well. TWIE should not have been a race checker. Thematically, it does make sense Kuroi and RM were race checkers, but in compensation, either give more immunity to scum (which is not palpable) or change their check to something special like my fake claim "your target is able/not able to be recruited to your faction"

Cult was probably a tad weaker then it could have been. Mainly again, it also had no way to deal with the cop-vigs, or race checkers. I think the alternate kill/cult is compensated by being able to cult after the leader dies and also cult mafia (if anything that's appreciably stronger than 'cult until leader dies'). Making the cult leader race-immune + giving the cult kill a one-time strongman modifier might have been better

---

Town played well enough to win... but like, how hard was it? The amount of thinking, scum hunting, and the like required was minimal. I saw competent scum hunting from Heartless past day 3. I mean real scum hunting, like actually bothering to do VCA, and look back over the game. Toog and Exp gave fine reads lists, but again, it's just like, PoE via roles.

Major failures from town were,

lynching Kuroi
thinking that Nosferatu had to be redirected instead of lying, and never revisiting that point ever.
Expedience vig. (I mean...)

Major failures from scum were,

WT shooting MB
Cult not communicating with Me
me claiming Individual against of West Empire

---

Disclaimer: I am a bit salty

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

i still thing there was a crazy excess of strongmen in this game though.

are you kidding me

there were three unclutable bluet proof vigs

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

@Tim

dave was never around!

even I couldn't communicate with him

[ActionDan]

i still thing there was a crazy excess of strongmen in this game though.

are you kidding me

there were three unclutable bluet proof vigs

I think she is (hopefully)

[Nahdia]

i'm not kidding. there was an excess of bulletproofs too. the arms war of tons of strongmen and tons of BPs just makes both roles kind of dumb and frustrating for everyone involved.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

I mean three Conf town uncultable bullet proof Vigs

[Nahdia]

just be sparing with who you assign bulletproof modifiers to and you don't need to give both scumteams and unlimited strongman. the right way to do strongmen (and ninjas for that matter) IMO is to have it be a limited use factional ability.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

i'm not kidding. there was an excess of bulletproofs too. the arms war of tons of strongmen and tons of BPs just makes both roles kind of dumb and frustrating for everyone involved.

there wasn't

the only tool scum could scum possibly use to prevent the end game you observed was using strongman shots.

The very core try for blancing this was with putting strongmans in it.

and That was not enough

[Nahdia]

and yet, if you took out the strongmen and the vast majority of the bulletproofs, you suddenly have a setup that makes less people feel cheated. amazing how that works.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

just be sparing with who you assign bulletproof modifiers to and you don't need to give both scumteams and unlimited strongman. the right way to do strongmen (and ninjas for that matter) IMO is to have it be a limited use factional ability.

I agree

thats what I was trying to say. the setup gave scums no chance to win beside those two strongmans.

and cult left screwed cuase the other two team couldn't use their strongman shots properly.

The amount of BP which were thrown around was really really bad. if we only could eleminate those two vigs we had a Chance to pull this off

[Nahdia]

man i sound complainy and that wasn't my intention. it was just kinda my impression that in the pursuit of balancing the teams, things got kind of out of hand and everything might have done better with just dialing every team's power back in this area. but /shrug, im no expert.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

and yet, if you took out the strongmen and the vast majority of the bulletproofs, you suddenly have a setup that makes less people feel cheated. amazing how that works.

I'm not saying anyone was cheated or not. My whole point about balance if for anyone who is watching the game and wants to get ideas for their futer games. This game was really townsided by definition and whoever talk otherwise is not really paying attention or just assumes oh fuck there was a cult so it was op let town get whatever makes them Imba.

I'm not trying to critizie what mastin did. what she did was pretty much amazing and it was so fun. I'm just saying it had a great room for making it better - there is basically no perfect but we can move toward perfection can't we?

[ActionDan]

We rolecopped you, then strongman'd you. That was two actions. We did that for the sake of efficiency with our role abilities. I'm sure if we could, we'd have preferred to kill off a Vig via the same actions.

without strongmen, would you also advocate taking out the doctor/BG/Roleblocker/jailkeeper too?

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

without strongman this game was like just give the town victory.

your just pissed about your death and your not seeing the whole picture nahdia.

[dramonic]

I dunno why I won, but yay?

[Luna Fox]

Kinda funny now that i think about it:

I think that Tim's scum, and BBMolla's town.

Also my 4th post in undead thread:

I have a feeling Cakez and Ceph have access to some sort of PT.

[ActionDan]

BBM was lying though.

[RachMarie]

I would have hated being recruited I was trying so HARD for a town win

I also would have hated becoming scum in the end and having to try to kill peeps


NERO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE KILLED MY GF GRRRRRR

The death scene with both Wake and Exp actually brought real tears to my eyes, I kind of really got totally into being my role as Nicholas and I think it showed at times in the game, and I also think it helped me play better than I normally do.

[Frozen Angel]

rach that was an awful thing to do but that was our best move at that point. we should have played toward our wincon so there was that

[RachMarie]

oh I understand and Mastin (read both dead threads now) is right Nicholas should have been recruited by cult or shot by scum at night.

Reason I did not out myself early on and CC cephir was because I had not yet recruited and I saw too much risk of becoming the usual lynch bait for town paranoia which was highly anti anything not human right then. So I hunkered down and thought What would Nicholas do here? He is a hunter, so I will hunt;

Hunt for the best partner to help me win the game for us and for town
Hunt both scum teams and get them dead any way I can
Hunt for townies that I can clear and kind of be a weak cop
Hunt for people to block to prevent catastrophe. kind of a weak jk

In the end like Nicholas himself, it was not the most elegant, but it got the job done.

And I do still love you Nero but take this in the vein it is meant DAMNIT STOP BEING SO F***ING STUBBORN AND HOLDING GRUDGES dude yes you were ticked off about Exp outing you, but you outed me too dude. The masons claim was for all intents and purposes pretty accurate really. We were working for town, and we were in complete alignment on our win con.

Really glad your other head voted for the treaty and hammered it.

[Titus]

Nero, why did you shoot me when we were confirmed town to each other in our PMs?

[Nahdia]

We rolecopped you, then strongman'd you. That was two actions. We did that for the sake of efficiency with our role abilities. I'm sure if we could, we'd have preferred to kill off a Vig via the same actions.

without strongmen, would you also advocate taking out the doctor/BG/Roleblocker/jailkeeper too?

some protection should exist but yeah you could take out a lot of it.

without strongman this game was like just give the town victory.

your just pissed about your death and your not seeing the whole picture nahdia.

i mean, i think my point is pretty reasonable but OK if you say so dude.

[MathBlade]

So Obvtownie and BP. Dies to bullet.

This should be an achievement lol. I think while we lost we did better and managed to eliminate town power while getting townread for it. I was literally trying to get you guys to not drop more pants so we didn't have so many people to kill.