The sillies thing about all of that is that the kill was OBVIOUSLY performed by nos with the info town had. Town should have KNOWN the cult had a night kill after nos flipped without any personal targeted abilities. That means if he was seen visited someone, he was killing or culting them. Since the people he said he was visiting all flipped, town then knew he had not attempted to cult them(unless he was trying to cult me, but my immunity to being culted was NOT known to any of the players because it wasn't included in my role card), so he MUST have performed a kill on them.In post 8649, Frozen Angel wrote:cuase we didn't recruit anyone after that point. the only time we tried it got blocked.In post 8645, TheWayItEnds wrote:Cult still having a recruit after we lynched the leader is not something I realized tbh.
and the kill was not that obvious. there was a mistrious kill night 2 and I was using it for my claim. it was our kill.
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Cerberus v666 Let's Be Reasonable
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Frozen Angel SheQueen ShiftyShe
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yeah , I was just slipping at some point and solving that for town ^ and rach told me "you didnt got culted becuase you weren't a human!" so I backed off immidiatly and never talked about it
even after dave flip!False tears bring pain to those around you
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Frozen Angel SheQueen ShiftyShe
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oh heartlessIn post 8650, Frozen Angel wrote:who did we tried to kill night 4 , I can't recall
there was a missing kill that night , I thought we cross killed.False tears bring pain to those around you
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Frozen Angel SheQueen ShiftyShe
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I mean killed one target with someone. ooohhh yeah, I tried to kill rach that night with almost 50 so we both killed poor toog.
hartless was wuldens shot I guess ... I'm too lazy to check.False tears bring pain to those around you
False smile brings pain to one's self
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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That moment in postgame when there's a ton of extra pages, signaling to you as a mod you either did something really good or really really bad.
Anyway!
I just remembered: I promised that I would post this in postgame.
N5, up until two hours before deadline, the wuldens were set to kill RachMarie. Why was that important? Because that meant Nicholas Schroder and Alexis Galenos would die on the same night. And...this was SO close to deadline, that I had actually written the scene for it! This is what you guys missed out on: Wouldn't that have been SO cool? I mean, sad, yes, but also: character interactions! They were good! They were amazing! They were...
...Not to be.My academy.
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RachMarie HUGS ♥
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oh gods you brought tears to my eyes again Mastin what a beautiful love/death scene.BRAND NEW Get to know me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=69243
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rb Survivor
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Cerberus v666 Let's Be Reasonable
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True. Someone should do the math on the likelihood of a guilty being received each night, given the number of investigatives that existed. At game start, there was like a 30% chance of an accurate guilty for each slot with the ability to investigate race or alignment. 9 such investigators(not all town, for the 3 scum ones their odds of hitting scum were a bit lower). Mathblade, wanna do math?In post 8657, rb wrote:I actually had a guilty on me N4 when I claimed miller. So no matter what I claimed I would have been caught lying.
The only lynch on someone who didn't have a guilty was Wayward Thinker.GTK a me, currently live, this may be your only chance!
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Cerberus v666 Let's Be Reasonable
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Oh, and there was also a watcher and a tracker, so...they could also get pseudo guilties on people. Odds were a lot smaller that they'd hit though, compared to the racial checkers and cops.GTK a me, currently live, this may be your only chance!
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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<3In post 8470, DrippingGoofball wrote:HUUuuuuuuuuuge thanks to Mastin for a colossal/epic/unprecedented amount of work and dedication to modding. I stand in complete awe. I have never played a game that so much thought as gone into. I think this made MS history!
The only hints I was expecting people to take from the flavor was the expectation that the characters Nicholas Schroder and Alexis Galenos were both good guys. (Making a claim of them to be innocent child lite.) I was also expecting that people would think maybe, just maybe, instead of actually being in the game, they could instead exist as scum fakeclaims. (I also wanted people to think that maybe they could be evil, but I wasn't convinced they'd actually think that.)In post 8474, Frozen Angel wrote:Just if they contain so much hints like the way they had in this game you better tell people what they must expect before signing them up.
Anything else, correct or incorrect, was not something I anticipated. I expected some flavor speculation to happen, of course. But you have to keep in mind: all scum had the option to request FAKE FLAVOR. Not just a fake role PM. Fake flavor for every night. Nobody, not even once, over the course of the game, asked me to do this for them, in spite of them having that power, because they didn't think it necessary. (That, or they forgot.) The speculation was, therefore, inherently going to be flawed.
Now! Mind you. I wanted people to scrutinize something, yes, but it was not the flavor! I wanted people to scrutinize theMechanics Post. The Mechanics Post flat-out told everyone everything, just subtly. It told the scum they were scum. It told the town what scum would look like. It told the town what town would look like. It also told the special town (undead risen slave and individual nosferatu) that they weren't quite like the normal town, implying something was going on to make them different. And it also warned about the cult: NOTHING was known about the cult. Nothing, at all. Meaning, inherently, the cult would not be the wulden because there were facts known about the wulden.
This is why I continuously referred people back to it, and repeatedly reminded players of it. They were looking in all the wrong places: in the opening flavor, in the flavor for their role PMs, while overlooking the obvious right in front of them. I didn't think flavor speculation would do anything, especially given the number of safeguards I gave the scum: conversions would have their original claim to truthfully claim. All scum had the ability to fakeclaim. (Plus, this all being original flavor, there was no source material to compare it to.) Between the two, claiming would be seen as not only virtually worthless, but also potentially detrimental to the town. I figured the same for flavor spec: it would be done, but it wouldn't be done successfully.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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To be blunt.In post 8481, Firebringer wrote:I don't know why you are arguing with this, we had an argument day 2 for the simple ideas of who was aligned with who.
We had to read the flavor to understand this better, or at least get an idea.
ESPECIALLY as culted scum.
Why the heck was there any doubt?
Between the mechanics post, and you having a list ofevery possible town wincon in the gamesave one (you didn't have the Undead Risen Slave one, but that had already flipped), you shouldn't have needed flavor to understand the difference.
One, those claims would not have been given to you if they were scum roles.
And two, those claims had a clear pattern to them: threats eliminated, versus threats to the new humanity treaty with at least one alive.
Flavor wasn't needed to read that. Reading game mechanics was.
I did not intend for you to figure it out through flavor. I intended for you to figure it out by reading the mechanics.
I mean.
I understand faking doubt.
As scum, especially culted scum who started as town.
Faking doubt is a needed skill.
But there shouldn't have been ANY real doubts in there.My academy.
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RachMarie HUGS ♥
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@ Mastin
I loved the flavor it helped me to really step into BEING Nicholas and I am glad you did not change the gender of him and Alexis, I think it worked anyway since I happen to be bi and I think Exp did not care either way at least he did not seem to. I just wish he had gotten the clue sooner. Especially after Nero made me hard claim.
Exp you are a cool dude with a cool avatar I do hope you know I was role playing lol. But I think becoming Nicholas heart body and soul is what helped me play like I did.BRAND NEW Get to know me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=69243
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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They weren't meant to be. The town had a vampire and had a nosferatu. Not to mention, an undead who was NOT part of the undead risen slave. Especially if both had lived, and succeeded in recruits (upping their total numbers from 2 to 4), this would have given proof of the individual vampire faction, the individual nosferatu faction, and by extent, lent some credence to the idea of an individual wulden faction.In post 8500, A Song of Ice and Fire wrote:the setup factions and races were to fitted on each other
The way I saw things: the individual undead, with the presence of undead risen slaves, told the game that there could be individuals of a race that are by themselves, divorced of any factions. At some point in the game, someone correctly speculated that individual effectively meant "by themselves", as in, a lone person: individual human, individual undead, individual vampire, individual nosferatu, and while nonexistent in the game proper, as a fakeclaim individual wulden.
I was not expecting flavor speculation such that they'd assume all of a race were evil, especially when I had designed the game such that almost none of them were! It also didn't help things that the only player to attempt the individual wulden claim, Lady Lambdadelta, actually botched it: she didn't claim some specifics of her fakeclaim (which was fully written out), and had she done so, it would have been more clear that her (fake) role was a match for (real) others. And when her claim went badly, the wulden faction gave up on the idea of claiming wulden, which of course increased the power of racial checkers.
The reason that I did not give you a claim was because you already had one: your starting role PM. When I design roles, I generally assume that players are going to tell as few lies as possible. I also, in all of my fakeclaims that I handed out, gave scum the advice: "adjust as desired/needed", because the claims I would build for them would work fine in theory but in practice the scum might think it a good idea to tweak them and improve on them in certain areas. So, the assumption was, as I tried to explain to you, that you would claim your real role, your starting role, with any needed modifications to it, including to race. It would only take one or two sentences for you to justify how you're not a human, and because you'd be paraphrasing my words anyway, it wouldn't matter what you said.mastian was refusing to give us a fake claim for race other and then I was like
That was the difference between those starting as scum and those who were recruited: it was assumed that those who were recruited would go with their real role, and modified subtly as needed. Since direct quoting isn't allowed anyway, they would be paraphrasing my words, or in their case, lying out of their asses.
It was a given that those who started as scum wouldn't claim their real role, so they needed fakeclaims.
It was a given that race checkers would be strong against the cult, but the cult has a natural advantage: a player who was already checked by a racial checker can be recruited, and once checked, is unlikely to be re-checked.we're fucking screwed this race checkers are alignment cops in this setup.
Mind you!This twice worked out for scum!
davesaz was checked by TheWayItEnds. He was close to being lynched, but TheWayItEnds claimed to have checked him as human, and the lynch on davesaz was averted. If Yume (the person who submitted the vig on him) had been paying attention to the thread closely enough to have read that claim, then davesaz would never have gotten shot, and never have gotten lynched, in spite of him having lost the immunity.
rb was ALSO checked by TheWayItEnds. He ultimately was caught both because of a guilty on him, and him claiming racial miller (had he claimed normal miller instead of racial miller, he would have countered the CORRECT type of cop), but had TheWayItEnds shared this result with Expedience PRIOR TO Expedience's investigation, and had rb not made that claim, rb would have not been lynched because TWIE would have backed him up.
The cult's advantage here is that, unlike the other scum, the cult can CONTINUE to recruit. Meaning, instead of having one person checked, they can continue to have people that were checked recruited. Bacde was confirmed undead by RachMarie, for instance.
This though is true. Yes, it was an assumption on my part that people would assume all races could have good or bad people. I did not expect them to all go "wuldens are bad!". I also did not expect them to know "other = bad!" until a cult had flipped, because I expected them upon getting an "other" result to be, "...huh?". And, mind you, when Expedience got a cult result on Nosferatu, that's exactly what happened. He didn't know what he had gotten.the very basic assumption of mastian was people will listen to her and will assume all races may have good or bad people but it wasn't the case and people will go with the thing they can see in a pattern.
The reason the undead risen slaves were built that way is really simple: they could have become a scum faction. So I wanted them to have the ability to deduce, "maybe we're not supposed to be town". I wanted them to be able to have that level of caution, for them to be able to figure out that maybe they could be something that was a potential threat. (They were!)and a 5 player masonary in this game that I didn't even mentioned earlier
...Yet Ialsodidn't want them to have mod confirmation of each other at the start. So I told them that they were not confirmed to each other, because I ALSO wanted them to have the ability to deduce, "maybe we're actually town". I also wanted them to be able to figure out, they could potentially be no threat. (They were!)
I wanted them to have both. Because both were equally right, and both were equally wrong. They were both town, and not town. They were both potentially-scum, and not potentially scum. They needed to know who each other were, but they needed to not from the get-go know that they were confirmed to each other, because I knew that having a 5-man masonry was...not a good idea in any sense. Especially when said 5-man masonry can potentially shift into a scumteam midway through the game!My academy.
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Firebringer Trail Blazer
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To this day will still continue to think this game was just random stuff happening.In post 8642, TheWayItEnds wrote:
Tbh i agreed with this post when you made it.In post 8568, Cephrir wrote:Mostly upset that I wasted a good scum game on something this ridiculous.
In post 5623, Cephrir wrote:ok new philosophy.
i'm town.
if at the end of the game i'm told that i lost because i didn't understand semantics, i will choose to believe that i won.
the end. i will make this mafia even if it is not mafia.
We were all secretly town guys. :3Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown-
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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<3In post 8514, SirCakez wrote:This game was pretty awesome. Thanks for modding mastin!
You might've done better if you realized that the fakeclaim I actually DID make for youIn post 8521, Frozen Angel wrote:I have no idea how I survived 5 phases after getting confirmed cult. my claim was absolute trash lolhada name.
You missed it and improvised your own.
But I gave you the nameNick.Galenos.
As in, a secret child ofNicholasSchroder, and AlexisGalenos. (The concept of naming the boy after the father is nothing new, after all.)
If you had kept 100% to the flavor of that role, then both Expedience and RachMarie would have recognized that the role was clearly making references to both of them, references which you could NOT be making up, and therefore references that MUST have come from the mod, giving validity to your claim. You would have been one happy family!
...Except you were trying to murder them all.Smalldetail.My academy.
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Firebringer Trail Blazer
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For someone who tells me that flavor and reading into it doesn't matter, its funny for mastin to tell us to use the flavor to make a defense.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown-
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RachMarie HUGS ♥
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yeah why were you trying to murder your parents see bad childBRAND NEW Get to know me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=69243
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Firebringer Trail Blazer
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You kept trying to lynch your child.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown-
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RachMarie HUGS ♥
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You were culted I had to for Alexis, for town, and for gloryBRAND NEW Get to know me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=69243
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Like I said, I don't think that I was that far off the mark.In post 8527, ActionDan wrote:As Mastin as since realized though, balance was off. And limiting the power of the BP-vigs and race checkers would be the fix (and not tampering with Vanilla's as FA suggested).
If hitting the bullseye is perfection, I think I was one, maybe two, rungs over. (These being small, thin rings, rather than wide rings. We're talking like a 10-ring-minimum target here, not a 5-ring one. Something like this.)
Believe it or not, IMy solutions would be to give the vigs only a 1-shot communal BP so the cumulative number of shots it would take for them all to die is decreased from 6-->4.almostdid exactly that, except two communal BPs instead of 1. That would've meant 5 rather than 4, but it'd still be easier to take all three vigs out. For instance, Titus would have lived through N1...but all three vigs would now have lost their BP status and been vulnerable for the rest of the game. This is one of the things I would have changed.
This was also the second change I would make.TWIE should not have been a race checker.
Kuroi was pure town, so him being a racial checker was all the pure town needed. It also made mechanical sense, as he'd need to know a human in order to recruit successfully.
Rach wasn't pure town, so being a racial checker wasn't meant to influence the town so strongly, but what it was meant for is to help Rach get a better idea for who to recruit.
This was also why dramonic was a racial checker: the undead risen slaves were a separate faction. They were worded in a way that I knew they could be played as either town, OR as scum. If they were playing like scum, then dramonic's check would be needed in order to scout out potential recruits.
But if all three were playing purely as town, then that was all they needed. TheWayItEnds was redundant. I realized this either D1, or early D2, but by the time I did recognize it, obviously I couldn't just go, "hey, TWIE, so I realized the game needs adjustment, sooooo...you're vanilla now!"
Not being able to deal with the vigs is fair enough, though that would be addressed if the vigs' BP was handled differently. But people keep saying they were vulnerable to race checks, and I keep on saying the same thing: I do not think I am in the wrong to say the power of their recruit being able to nab peopleMainly again, it also had no way to deal with the cop-vigs, or race checkers.already checkedis incredibly strong and more than enough fair compensation for the racial checkers.
While a player recruited and then investigated would be screwed, a player investigated and then recruited would instead screw the town over. It works both ways, and I do not think it is at all unfair to balance with that taken into account.
On that note:In post 8538, A Song of Ice and Fire wrote:This game was really townsided by definition and whoever talk otherwise is not really paying attention or just assumes oh fuck there was a cult so it was op let town get whatever makes them Imba.
When I designed the game, it was under the assumption that the town would be clueless. It was under the assumption the town would be paranoid. It was under the assumption that--without some serious help--the town would self-destruct, meanwhile the scum could laugh their asses off in the background knowingexactlywhy they were failing. And, circa D1-D2, this is actuallyexactlywhat happened! Not in the way I envisioned it, obviously, but still more or less: the town did not know who their allies were. The scum did. The town did not know who their enemies were. The scum did. The town was running around, confused. The scum were telling them what idiots they were being.
This is because, prior to mykonian's thread on the subject, my way of balancing games was more in the mykonian school of thought: assume the town is going to be morons. Assume the town is going to be incompetent. Assume that the town is going to be idiotic enough, that if they don't have roles guiding them through the process, they will not possibly be able to win the game.
And, as it turns out, I wasn't too far off the mark. Like I said above: I think I missed the bullseye. I think I slightly overcompensated. The town hadslightlytoo much on their side. But I don't think it was that much. They used almost all the power they had, and they needed almost all of it, because they camedangerouslyclose to losing the game at many points. And, the special town players were carried by a single individual (RachMarie), beingthisclose to having been eliminated. So the special town almost did lose, in spite of their massive power, and the normal town was one or two different night actions away from being fucked over.
They didn't need every bit of strength I gave them. But they needed most of it.My academy.
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Nero Cain Survivor
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there was like 0% chance she'd stay alive with both me and Almost scumreading her.In post 8658, rb wrote:Oh and ASOIAF was so cult that it hurt my brain to watch people not lynch her. If she won the game many tables would have been flipped.Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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There was that. Lady Lambdadelta fucked her claim up when she claimed she did not have a recruit. (Something I specifically put in her claim for good reason!) You're probably referring to that fact, which I noted early-on in the spoiled dead thread.In post 8563, RachMarie wrote:No actually I did not buy LLD's claim completely I forget but something in it just did not jibe with mine, but I knew if I pushed it would mean revealing myself so I went with blocking her then there were so many deaths that I second guessed my read a few times.
Had LLD claimed her fakeclaim as it was given (that being, including the recruit! I put that in for damn good reason), you probably would have backed her up.
You have NO clue how frustrating it was for me to read you ranting about that.In post 8564, Frozen Angel wrote:I was pretty shocked when I saw individual nos claim after the point i was sure there is no isolationist left
I, as the moderator, wanted to SCREAM, "BUT THERE IS AN INDIVIDUAL NOSFERATU IN THE GAME!", but for obvious reasons, all I could do is passively sit and let you fume.
Umm...this really doesn't jive with the above.setup was just to predictable based on flavor
You can't be shocked about the individual nosferatu claim after there's no isolationists left, AND say that the game was predictable based on flavor. Those two are...kinda mutually exclusive?
SEEMED being the key word!In post 8565, Frozen Angel wrote:at least it seemed like it was to predictable.
I put many twists and turns in the setup specifically to mess with people's predictions. I wanted people to be surprised by events. I wanted people to not know the full picture. I wanted people to think they did, only to time and time again be proven wrong.
Which, I did get a lot of, mind you. Especially from Almost50.
I mean, you knew it was multiball going in.In post 8568, Cephrir wrote:Mostly upset that I wasted a good scum game on something this ridiculous.
You knew it had a cult, going in.
You knew it had all those ridiculously complex mechanics, going in.
You knewit was a mastina gamegoing in.
What were you honestly expecting it to be?
It was going to be crazy, it was going to be insane, no matter what you did.
There was going to be a high mortality rate, and a high number of actions that could potentially fuck a faction over, no matter what.
It was going to be ridiculously swingy, no matter what.
A game this size, with no player as a FULL vanilla, guaranteed that.
And you were told all of this from the get-go.
I tried to give every faction about an equal chance of winning, all five of them.
One in particular was slightly overpowered especially because a second was backing them (the special town), but were you expecting a game like this to play in the same matter as a single-ball non-role-madness, 20ish-player game? Of course that wasn't going to happen. A good scumgame for that type of game isn't a good scumgame for this type of game. A good scumgame in this type of game emphasizes having fun, while not being a hero (heh).
Ultimately, when I mod a game, I am not looking for players to take things super-seriously. I am looking for players to enjoy themselves, to have a thoroughly rich experience, where they'd have a blast even if they were the D1 lynch. I have always been consistent about this looser stance on balance, on this more "casual" take on the game.
I am sorry if that was not your experience.
At that point in the game, I do think your individual human champion claim was in fact fairly good. The problem that arose from it though was that it had information that could be faked because you were using only information from players already flipped. The Nick Galenos claim, if you had adapted it into the individual human champion claim, would have done the same thing, except ALSO having information NOT public at that time, giving it credence.In post 8569, Frozen Angel wrote:and my own claim just came out ! Individual human champion was brilliant , whoever disagrees need to be hanged in a city center!My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8437
- Joined: October 21, 2009
- Location: Jusenkyo
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mastin2 The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- The Second Coming
- Posts: 14413
- Joined: October 8, 2009
- Location: Replacement Alley
<3In post 8575, Almost50 wrote:Well, first and foremost: I can't even begin to describe how delightful this game was both concerning setup & mechanics AND flavour.
I can only say this:@Mastin: Pre-In me in ANY AND ALL your future larges.
Also, I said this in the dead thread, and I'll say it again:
Balance did not account for scum outing their investigations to town.
When I designed the game, it was an assumption on my part that scum would keep their investigations to themselves. This meant, I ASSUMED that 3/7 racial checkers would DEFINITELY keep their results to their own topics, potentially 4. (Depending on the Undead Risen Slaves.) I also assumed that there was a 50% chance that the faction cop kept their results to their own topic. (Which almost did happen! Except, Luna Fox has a big mouth. )
On D2, two of the three guilties outed were given to the town BY SCUM. The third guilty was given to the town by a person whowasn't even sure they were town. (And, strictly speaking, wasn't!)
I did not balance the game assuming scum would give the town free information. YET ALONE, that the town would then TRUST that information given to them when the player having given it flipped scum. But that's exactly what happened.
Of course balance is going to skewer in favor of the town if the scum are HELPING THE TOWN by giving them information they shouldn't be giving.
That halves the investigation power of the town outright. The tracker, rolecop, two full-checkers, and potentially also the watcher holding their results back from the town, while 3-4 of the racial checkers also hold their results from the town, while one cop might also hold their results from the town, would significantly weaken the town, no?
And that is what I had built the setup assuming.
It proved to be a wrong assumption, especially since the undead risen slaves had outed literally every single facet of their faction (save their kill) D2, but it was in fact my assumption, and I do not think it was that unreasonable an assumption to have made.My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
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