Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[BlackVoid]

My reasoning for Cloud is a bit counter-intuitive. It is based on him insisting that his "townslip" made him not scum with IAI. When scum fake a townslip, they plan it out and the action is deliberate. I think someone who would go around planting fake townslips would also be suave enough to let the town

find

these townslips on their own for maximum cred. On the other hand, I can easily see town thinking they townslipped and having a "hey guys, look I townslipped, haha" reaction.

[BlackVoid]

@Michel, did you want me to explain my Hoopla-read as well or just those five?

Now my turn. Talk to me about your read on Sotty7 and MariaR, especially the former. Those are the two active players I don't have a townread on.

[TwoFace]

TwoFace did notice, but decided to go into a theory discussion rather then engage in an "are you scum?" discussion in post #12 and #25. TwoFace, why did you decided to discuss the legality of dice voting, rather then the implications of Hoopla's use of it?

I am using a coin flip, so who am I to judge somebody for using dice?

I asked about the legality of it because I was under the impression that provable randomness like dice rolling is not allowed on site. turns out it's a mod by mod rule and not a site rule.

[goodmorning]

This is starting to get confusing.

GM can you go into your 1-2 of your other reads so I can judge them instead of this exchange?

So I mostly townread you and Face for totally missing the joke, though you in particular have made a lot of really Town-looking posts since then.

BV is a little more complicated to explain because that was the first read I got, but basically I townread the perspective his posts seem to be coming from, if that makes sense?

I have some very mild other ones but I'll wait for them to actually be meaningful and explainable first.

If there is scum on the wagon

I like that you start by saying "IF" and then somewhere between there and the end of the post it magically changes to "IS" with no real explanation.

And by "I like" I mean "I don't like." Also VCA is dumb ok

Just looking for a place to start. While you may disagree with my methods of getting there, I do think my logic for scumreading sotty is solid, which is, you know, why I posted it.

And there's nothing wrong with that. There's still a gap in logic there though. When/why does if -> is?

It's goodmorning's reaction that strikes me as most strange of them all. Her posts #18 and #20 acknowledge that there are early game oddities in playstyles, but flat out refuses to draw any conclusions based on that whatsoever. Goodmorning, what was the reason that you responded the way you did?

Because I just did?

Alright, I'll try and be more thorough: I don't think I've ever played a game with Hoopla. Being too relaxed or too uptight in RVS can simply be a function of playstyle; just because someone knows lots about theory doesn't mean they won't joke around when it doesn't matter too much. And the dice thing was pretty unconcerning. I usually play as an IC, so I've seen much weirder stuff than that.

Firstly, the way she's pushing BBT based on past games (along the lines of "I know you and you are better than this") came across as town. Scum tend to townread their "friends" because they'd be expected to know how to read them and it's easier to just correctly call them town.

Unless we're both scum together

oh no

Actually I think I scumread the hell out of him last time we played me-Scum vs him-Town so? But then again that might make me more likely to not do the same thing twice? WIFOM!

Found: O570. tbf I did start that game trying to townread him but then I 180d.

Thirdly, from the back-and-forth with Victor, I agree with and understand GM's argument and I think her passion on pushing Victor is genuine. From more recent posts, the angry outbursts and swearing would be way over the top and unnecessary as scum. I think that's town that's genuinely mad that Victor isn't explaining himself.

I angry outbursts/swearing a lot. Usually I keep a slightly cooler head as Scum but not necessarily.

[BlackVoid]

Did you scumread BBT first or did he scumread you first and then you pushed back?

[goodmorning]

My 180 on him was precipitated by Wisdom replacing in and looking too Town for me to keep scumreading, because I was able to read Wisdom like no-one else. So I did a near-total 'reassess' because 'if I was wrong about that then my fundamental view of the gamestate needs adjusting' or some bullshit like that.

Why, is that important?

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, it's important. It's definitely possible for scum to push people they've played with before if the circumstances warrant it or if they are just omgus'ing.

But a push right at the beginning when there were so many other options wouldn't be a good idea - unless you are an extraordinarily ballsy scum player. That's what I was trying to figure out.

[BlackVoid]

What's your take on Sotty's and BBT's pushed on each other?

[Hoopla]

From reading Mafia Discussion, I know you as someone with a very good grasp on mafia theory. For you to start the game with a dice vote and follow it up with a couple of whimsical posts feels to me like you went deliberately off meta in order to provoke reactions. That everyone basically ignored it, even when you went back to more serious posting, is extremely surprising to me. It feels like more players should have responded, as it would be a good way to get some discussion started. Simultaneously, I can kind of see scum deciding not to engage an experienced player. So I really want to look for players who could have reacted, but didn't.

Hey, just because I like posting in Mafia Discussion doesn't mean I can't have a cheeky LOL with my fellow players while the stakes are low! I find it strange how you are picking apart the opening of the game so rigorously but you're finding difficult to get a read on anything in the last 10 pages.

What do you think about the Victor vs. Me/goodmorning/TwoFace thingy? I know it's a lot of unnecessary semantics, but since you care about how people are reacting to me, do you find it weird that two people volunteered to step in and argue on my behalf yet nobody did the same for Victor? On reflection I kinda do, and I suspect them more than I do Victor (who I'm still trying to work out).

[Sotty7]

The fact you're not voting. Again, why?

That was good? Damn you must be a shitty player

I already answered him, so why did you just ask me when you should know the answer?

No real need for this, however true or not it might be. I answered your question as to why I liked what he said about you. Your answer obviously didn't sway me otherwise I wouldn't be voting you. I was under the impression the coin flip was a gimmick, to that end, wither you flipped a coin to stay in or out of RVS isn't important. Like you said in post Post 239 you'll have reasons to vote and unvote, you must have a reason to not be voting at the same time. Are you saying that the coin is real and you will wait until it lands were it needs to be? If that's the case I would rather you'd follow Hoopla's lead and use dice tags so at least we can see your working and fully buy into the gimmick.

In the same breath, talk to me about your Victor scum read. If anything Victor has been playing Hoopla's game in not being overly clear but he has expanded on his reads/votes since their initial confrontation. Post 238 (BBT) Post 293 (BBT, Hoopla) two examples.

You seem overly fixated on a semantic battle over Victor disagreeing with Hoopla on reads. What do you think of his GM vote? Do you find Hoopla scummy? Would you vote BBT?

[Sotty7]

Wait this is interesting, didn't notice this.

Why was missing the point or not knowing hoopla meta something scummy to you?
I got the impression you voted for gamestate or the sake of getting an early wagon, but the contrast here with "his other posts are good" implies you scumread my case on hoopla.
But I don't see how "it's wrong, you don't know her/have experience with her like I do" equates into a scumread, even though I know you said you had changed your mind since then.

It all plays in. Early game it was worth a vote to see what happened. I didn't find you not having experience with Hoopla to be scummy, just something that could explain your reaction to her if you were indeed town. I really wanted to see how far you would take it and if it would become a stretch for you to keep your vote on her. You didn't try to justify your position on her as she gave you more responses to your questions. I'm happy enough with your transition away from her, hence my willingness to move away from you.

@Sotty7, I agree with you that Rask is town now and BBT might be scum. But I'm more interested in what you were thinking at that time so I can gauge your alignment. You said BBT pushed an early wagon and panicked. I want to know what your gut reaction was then. Whether you thought he was calling off a bus or got worried about being implicated in a quick mislynch. Perhaps it's playstyle but I find it hard to have scumreads be completely independent of anything else especially when they are based off of how two people interacted with each other.

Fair enough. Like I said I don't build day one votes on potential buddying because it tends to go down in flames, I don't look for buddying or bussing until we have a least one scum flip, even then I keep in mind it is something scum can and will manipulate. I was much more interested in BBT's about face with no further elaboration before dropping off the face of the earth.

I also want to discuss your read on TwoFace. He seems very town to me. Being so sure in his scumread of Victor that it blows his mind that I disagree with him is indicative of someone who truly believes their read. I don't think the lack of voting is indicative of much if his coin-flip gimmick is something he does across games. You were leading the BBT-wagon. Why switch over from BBT before he has a chance to react?

I think I addressed your questions about my twoface read. As for why switch? BBT has gone from lurking to a potential replacement candidate, not having an active scum target makes me feel extremely stagnant. My switch doesn't mean I am giving up on my BBT read I am just looking to keep push and digging up the other scum reads as well.

This is starting to get confusing.

GM can you go into your 1-2 of your other reads so I can judge them instead of this exchange?

Or if you can break down your issue with Victor into like a paragraph without the quote wall. That would be extremely helpful, cause I'm not getting it. At all. Actually I have the same request of Victor RE: his GM read as well.

[Sotty7]

Mod: Can we get a BBT prod please?

[mhsmith0]

Bbt has been prodded. I'll post a vc later tonight or in the morning.

[TwoFace]

No need for what? To call you a shitty player? You said victor asking me why I wasn't voting since post 107 or whatever number was a good post. That's literally the most useless question of the game so far. So yeah that says to me that if you're town, your opinions are horrible.

typically if a player isn't voting, it usually means he doesn't have a reason to vote. any player who has played more than 1 game knows that.

But let's rewind for a bit. You originally said "stuff victor said" which implies multiple things and the only thing you pointed to was 1 useless question. Where's the other "stuff"? There was no other stuff. Victor hasn't made a good post yet.

The coin flip actually happens. Sometimes I use a real coin, other times I use a website and no I won't use dice tags. I'll keep doing it my way until i get tired of it and then I'll start voting normally.

Not sure what you want to know about my victor scum read but him calling hoopla scum was weird. His reason for it was bad cause hoopla's reason for not answering his question was good. He then went into useless mode. He literally asked me why I thought he singled hoopla out right after he explained why he singled hoopla out. He then asked why I hadn't had a vote down since post 107(or whatever number he said) like there is some sort of requirement to have a vote down. The exchange between GM and him has him looking like scum not GM so yeah that's where it came from.

I certainly wasn't overly fixated on the semantic thing, I wasn't even remotely fixated on it. Hell I only used the word once and that was when I was giving a recap of what happened before victor asked a stupid question.

Victor's vote on GM is bad, but victor is probably scum.

Would I vote bbt? Off the top of my head but I'd say probably not. It's because I don't have a read on him. Once I go back and read the game I'll have more solid reads. But for now, no I probably wouldn't.

[TwoFace]

Let's see what the coin says about voting victor now

Heads

VOTE: victor

[Hoopla]

No need for what? To call you a shitty player? You said victor asking me why I wasn't voting since post 107 or whatever number was a good post. That's literally the most useless question of the game so far. So yeah that says to me that if you're town, your opinions are horrible.

phew, it's a relief you added that emoji to help soften the blow

sotty, you better go work on your game.

[TwoFace]

I didn't even remember typing it lol

[Raskolnikov]

I THINK I like sotty now, although it really doesn't help that I saw her mentioned in the goat thread, and now that I check again its for scumplay no less.

PoE is actually starting to push BBT and IAI down at this point... GM still fishy but victor himself is one of my fringe townleans, and the whole exchange feels muddled. That said, probably not SonS.

Cloud was one of my better townreads but I don't know what the fuck he's doing now.

[Raskolnikov]

Don't feel like hoopla is pressuring sotty at all despite the vote.

[Hoopla]

Don't feel like hoopla is pressuring sotty at all despite the vote.

*adds to my to-do list*

- laundry
- get in another argument with victor
- let goodmorning know she's a good kid
- post office
- defrost the chicken (no, not a euphemism)
-

pressure sotty

[Hoopla]

While you're here, Rask:

I got a little lost while interrogating Maria. You seem to know her well -- what do you make of her this game? What's her scum meta like?

[MariaR]

I don't know whats wrong with me I'm reading but my head is just buzzing all the words are getting scrambled and I prob can't remember what was said on the last page
Someone ask me some questions please

[Hoopla]

I don't know whats wrong with me I'm reading but my head is just buzzing all the words are getting scrambled and I prob can't remember what was said on the last page
Someone ask me some questions please

What's your favourite animal?

[MariaR]

I don't know whats wrong with me I'm reading but my head is just buzzing all the words are getting scrambled and I prob can't remember what was said on the last page
Someone ask me some questions please

What's your favourite animal?

I love hedgehogs and kittens

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prod received.

Will read up and post tomorrow.