Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[soupfly]

confirmed

[soupfly]

sorry for being late. i'm not usually inactive but i've been on a business trip.

in any case:

vote: discipline_slayer

for clearly being scum

[soupfly]

VOTE: SOUPFLY

STOP YELLING AT ME!!

Not bullshit reason.

Am I making sense?

Granted, your bullshit vote DID spark discussion. More to come on this on my final post at L-1, when the time comes.

you only got 3 votes on you and L-1 would mean 6. that's a pretty big leap, no? and why so cryptic about this important thing you want to share at L-1? i hope you're not hinting at what i think you're hinting because that would be very poor play at this point if you are indeed a townie.

[soupfly]

The role of jester seems like a long shot, but the way he's been egging us on to put him at L-1 does make me worry that it could be a possibility. So I'll

Unvote: Disciple Slayer

...for now.

L-3 isn't all that serious...don't understand the unvote

It seems like only half of the people in this game have been involved in real discussion so far, and that needs to change. Speak up everybody!

Ok!

unvote: slayer
vote: OhGodMyLife

[soupfly]

Soupfly, while I don't think what you're doing is a good indication of your alignment, in no way is it helpful. Give us something beyond just votes.

But IMHO you are scum so I think I am being quite helpful...maybe not to you though...

[soupfly]

i feel that not explaining my suspicion at this point benefits the town more than explaining it. think a little bit about it and you understand why.

[soupfly]

unvote: oh god my life

vote: discipline slayer

--> what happens next will tell us alot!

[soupfly]

@ZeekLTK: you hammer and he's town and...

[soupfly]

soupfly

- I said I would hammer if he went to L-1 (because I thought he was a self-lynching jester - already explained this earlier in this post), so soupfly purposefully put him on L-1 knowing this. Also soupfly seemed to imply that he knew that DS was town with his post after the vote. "If you hammer and he's town..." seems to me he is a mafia who has just cast a vote that will get one townie lynched and is now setting up the bandwagon for Day 2 with the statement. It's like he knew DS was going to turn up town when he said that whereas I did not begin to think DS would be town until AFTER he had been lynched and continued to stick with his story (generally if you are lynched, you admit what your role is if you were previously lying - since he stuck with his story I began to feel like he was telling the truth - but it was obviously too late to do anything). When I voted, I genuinely believed that DS was either mafia or jester, hence why I voted to lynch him. soupfly seemed to be voting with the thought that DS is probably town and he wanted to see me get in trouble for lynching him... why would you vote to help lynch someone you think might be town?? Oh yeah, you'd do it if you were mafia!

vote: soupfly

pathetic argument. hammering DS was the wrong play...period. if you point a gun at a guy and say "i'll shoot you if you move", you'll get the chair if he moves and you shoot him...ultimately you pull the trigger and that's all that matters. you're either scum or a very bad player. i'll do a little metagaming to see which is more likely.

for the time being:

vote: ZeekLTK

for pathetic town play or typical WIFOM scum play.

[soupfly]

pathetic argument. hammering DS was the wrong play...period. if you point a gun at a guy and say "i'll shoot you if you move", you'll get the chair if he moves and you shoot him...ultimately you pull the trigger and that's all that matters. you're either scum or a very bad player. i'll do a little metagaming to see which is more likely.

Why did *you* put him on L-1 if you didn't think he should be hammered?

because i could not let a typical scum ploy go unchallenged. you basically pre-justified a scummy action because lynching so quickly was not in the town's interest. my vote had nothing to do with DS and everything to do with your declaration. typically when you hammer you also take responsibility for the consequences of your actions and i even wrote this in my post:

vote: discipline slayer --> what happens next will tell us alot!

@ZeekLTK: you hammer and he's town and...

while I hate to sacrifice a townie to catch a scum, you basically walked right into that one. besides, DS's play was pretty awful so he would have probably gotten lynched anyways, but the fact that you jumped the gun to get it done so quickly tells us alot.

i'll take responsibility for taking DS to L-1 where there is an inherent risk of opportunistic scum or over-zealous townie hammering too soon. But you ZeekLTK have full responsibility for dropping the hammer. Sorry but prejustifying that you'd hammer at L-1 does not transform my vote into the equivalent of the hammer. the hammer is all yours and now you need to answer for it.

[soupfly]

my home cpu died monday night so i can only access nets at office which is hard since i'm in 7 games. i'll do my best to catch up.

[soupfly]

Soupfly's characterization of the lynch yesterday as being entirely zeek's fault is just not true. It seems as though he was trying to bait zeek into laying the hammer so he could then blame him for it, although zeek very clearly stated that he would hammer as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Yes, it might have been rushed and he did take it upon himself to decide DS was a self-lynching jester, but you very clearly knew what would happen when you put the L-1 vote, and thats as good as dropping that hammer yourself. This in itself is scummy, but the fact that you're trying to use it against zeek is even moreso. You set it up in laying the vote, likely knowing exactly what the outcome would be.

Vote: Soupfly

for

the aforementioned

, and his refusal throughout day one to justify his actions.

for the aforementioned: i really didn't set up anything. i reacted to a strategy by Zeek which I found very suspect because it prejustifies his own actions. i pushed him on it because its not something that you can let players get away with. i'll take responsibility for the L-1 but the hammer is all Zeek.

if you're still not buying this then consider the following. by saying that he would hammer at L-1 then by his logic that puts the hammer in the hands of the person making the L-1 vote (me). but then that puts responsibility for the real L-1 vote on the person who voted before me (oh god my life) because if i had the real hammer then they took DS to the real L-1. do you all see how ridiculous it all becomes if you let people get away with making these types of threats. an L-1 is an L-1 and a hammer is a hammer. anybody saying anything else is grossly wrong or scum.

and so we're clear the "self-lynching jester" argument is a ridiculous play. why does town even care if DS is a self lynching jester? let him be because our win conditions are built around eliminating scum, not catching jesters.

Zeek found two very crappy reasons (L-1 and selfjester) for finishing off DS. I challenged him by giving him the opportunity to make the wrong play (hammer) and he did so. You all can interpret for yourself whether Zeek made the wrong play because of poor town play or because of scummy intentions. I think its cause he is scum.

confirm vote: Zeek

as far as explaining my first day actions, i'm guess that you're referring to my initial vote of you (ohgodmylife).

Soupfly, while I don't think what you're doing is a good indication of your alignment, in no way is it helpful. Give us something beyond just votes.

But IMHO you are scum so I think I am being quite helpful...maybe not to you though...

well don't be disappointed but there was no real suspicion there. everybody was so focused on DS that i wanted to try and put some pressure on somebody else. i chose you at random. it was a pressure vote meant to 1) get you to react and 2) see if others would jump aboard. and i think my explanation below explains this...

i feel that not explaining my suspicion at this point benefits the town more than explaining it. think a little bit about it and you understand why.

if i had told you it was a pressure vote then there would be no more pressure.

[soupfly]

obviously you are a last worder. you'll repeat the same argument again and again with the intention of always having the last word. fine, i made my point. you made yours. let the others make up their own minds.

I voted for a player who I thought was a jester (a jester is an ANTI-town role).

ORLY? I didn't realize the jester's win conditions included eliminating all townies. or that townie win conditions included eliminating all jesters...[/sarcasm]

[soupfly]

Unvote: Lowell

Vote: Soupfly

You're ignoring my post #162. You still haven't explained why you voted DS. Why did you not just point out what was scummy about Zeek's statement that he would lynch as soon as L-1 before a townie was mislynched?

i'm not ignoring you. i'm doing my best to juggle multiple games with limited net access.

My logic for voting DS is as follows:
1) DS was going to get lynched regardless. the only question was would it happen sooner or later.
2) Given 1, I used my vote to push Zeek into a position where if he voted to hammer DS then it would essentially out him as being scum.

why not just point it out? because if you're always pointing out what is scummy about people's play then they just won't do it. you put em in situations where their actions are what counts and then you see if they're scum or not. Zeek hammered DS (without giving him a chance to make a final post) because of his theory about a self-lynching jester (crap logic) and a pre-justified action (scum logic).

now here's a question for those of you voting me. how can you let someone justify a hammer by saying that:

1) they are somehow helping town by killing a self-lynching jester
2) they had threatened to lynch if taken to L-1 so its not their fault that they hammered.

We all knew it was going to happen so why is it so bad that I used his lynching to set a trap for Zeek? Can you guys not see that he totally swallowed the scum bait? Unfortunately DS was a townie but he was going to get lynched regardless because his desire to test out a new play style failed miserably. In that situation at least we learned alot about Zeek.

[soupfly]

and you're missing the point that preventing some jester from self-lynching himself and winning is not as important as cutting a day short or mislynching.

in other words preventing a jester's win condition makes no difference for the town so there is no reason for a townie to risk quick hammering him.

[soupfly]

Sorry the absence. Checking the game's progress briefly, but there is no reason for me to change my vote.

of course not, you're scum. damn its so obvious i'm surprised i didn't see it earlier. don't worry, i'm not gonna get lynched today...and probably not even Zeek. That honor will belong to you.

unvote: Zeek
vote: Petunho

anybody else see it?

[soupfly]

unvote: petunho

it was actually a pretty random vote. i knew i was leaving on vacation and wanted to stir something up aside from the Zeek/Soupfly debate. i felt that there was no point in debating just that incident when it could be that neither of us are scum. i reread petunho's posts just in case there was something there but i can't really see anything suspicious in his play.

as far as Zeek, i'm not really sure anymore. i mean why would any scum want to put themselves in a potentially scummy situation to lynch someone like DS who was gonna get lynched anyway. most likely the scum just sat back and let the townies mess that whole thing up. i don't like Zeek's play there but i also understand how people saw my action as suspect. final thing to note about Zeek, i can agree to look past the pre-justified speed lynch thing on DS but what kind of bothers me is the Miller claim. the timing of the announcement seems pretty suspect. we'll see.

soupfly had gone after me the whole day until it looked like I probably wasn't going to get lynched, then he (without giving a reason why) suddenly just switches to Petunho and then has gone mysteriously MIA.

get over yourself Zeek. you were just as likely to get lynched at that point as i was. whether you're town or scum you've played this game very poorly. it could be that i've not played my best game but at least i can admit that. what i wanted to do was try to get discussion going outside of our little back and forth. tunnel vision on Day 2 when two townies (including cop) are dead only helps scum blend into the background.

unfortunately this happened to me while snowboarding so i haven't been as active: http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8854/surgey2rm9.jpg
i hope this resolves the mystery of soupfly's absence.

will do my best to catch up on what's been written.

[soupfly]

I don't really understand how you expected people to react to your petunho vote, seeing that there was no explanation, or even reasoning, behind it. What else were people going to say but "sorry, don't see it"? In the best case, you were asking for other players to think of an argument for you. Random voting may work to stir up discussion during the random voting stage, but it would seem to me that there would be something better to try to focus the discussion on then a random vote during day 2.

obviously it didn't work but then again i should have picked my target a little bit better. i was in a rush and wanted to put something out there to get the discussion going in a different direction for reasons stated before.

[soupfly]

Soupfly, hope your recovery goes more smoothly than the ride on your snowboard must have.

funny you should say that cause it was on a brand new 600 Euro extra wide hand crafted limited edition board. very sweet ride...while it lasted. unfortunately it happened on my second run with it. my snowboarding vacation lasted all of 20 minutes. new years eve in the hospital is depressing as hell.

[soupfly]

He's playing exactly like a mafia would. He's not trying to catch scum, he's just trying to cover his tracks, stay out of sight/out of mind, and do just enough to push the town in the wrong direction.

i can get behind this argument

vote: QuickBen

[soupfly]

But either way, all soupfly has done all game is cast votes and then ask other people to explain them (especially the Petunho one). When they don't pan out (aka he can't get a bandwagon rolling against that person) he just switches and votes for someone else to try to get another bandwagon going.

I think I'm going to switch my vote back to soupfly. But just because he's voting for QuickBen doesn't mean QuickBen is off the hook.

unvote; vote soupfly

you do know there's a difference between trying to lynch someone and trying to pressure them. being that i'm a townie i don't know who's scum and am casting suspicion in different areas. ogml, petunho and even quickben were attempts to put pressure on people. the only vote that i really believed in was the one on you and even that i wasn't too comfortable with due to you being a poor player. i honestly don't have a good feel at the moment for who is scum.

the only thing that i'm pretty sure of in this game is that MichelSableheart is a townie. his play has been very solid and balanced. i'll probably follow his lead.

so i'm going to

unvote: QuickBen

because now that i've admitted it was a pressure vote, there's no more pressure.

[soupfly]

Hmmm, he put DS at L-1 after I said I would hammer

and

then immediately said "if he's town..." to imply that he already knows DS is going to be town and he's just trying to get the bandwagon rolling against me for when I do hammer.

you really are dense aren't you?

ever stop and think that we're both probably townie because scum would have no reason to get caught up in a controversial lynch of a player who was going to get lynched anyway. i've already admitted that maybe my play wasn't great as far as trying to set you up for a scummy move. can't you realize that your entire play to prevent the self-lynching jester from winning was completely ridiculous? are you still trying to convince everybody that its okay to prejustify a move that benefits the town in no way?

people aren't buying my wagon or yours because what we did was more just stupid play rather than scummy play. in my defense i'd been drinking at the time of the post so it made alot more sense to me then. in retrospect it was all a pointless exercise on both our parts. i set you up to do something stupid (which you did), but which brought no tangible benefit to the town because ultimately i probably didn't out scum...just an inexperienced player.

[soupfly]

btw, a miller claim is pointless because nobody can ever verify it. if anything it makes the person look more guilty because it allows for plausible deniability of a guilty investigation.

for those of you who don't know, a miller is a townie who will show up scum if he's ever investigated by a cop.

however a few things to consider. if you are indeed a miller then the time to claim is as soon as the game starts. otherwise it can appear to be an opportunistic ploy by scum who suspect that they've drawn enough attention that they may be investigated. for this reason players often times do not know they are millers at the beginning of the game exactly so that they can not claim early.

in Zeek's case he claimed during twilight of Day 1 when he had a medium amount of pressure on him following DS's lynch. to me this was a bit odd.

[soupfly]

@Mike- Its mainly their interaction on the lynch that leads me to believe that one, or the other, or (less likely) both are scum. The whole "if he gets to L-1 I'm hammering" statement stinks. Its too easy for scum to say that knowing that a townie is on the block, so he can point the finger elsewhere. The fact that shortly afterwards, soupfly put him at L-1 was scummy too.

given that DS was going to get lynched, regardless of whether jesus christ himself replaced into this game for him, you believe that two scum would get involved in a poorly thought out gambit where one would claim to be trying to preempt a self lynching jester from winning the game while the other would be challenge the anti-jester...all of this to ensure the death of a player who was going to get lynched anyway? this is result of your brilliant scum-hunting?

thanks for making this easy

vote: QuickBen

[soupfly]

One of the two scummiest players in the game is voting me... witness the shaking in my boots.

my play has been less then stellar, i agree. however my point was that its extremely unlikely that both myself and zeek are scum.

I feel that both of you being scum is unlikely, but possible.

anything is possible, but when you post scenarios within the scope of the game they should be plausible scenarios, not unlikely ones.

What I think happened is that a townie made an incredibly stupid play and a scum made a play to get a townie lynched. I'm just confused as to which of you made the stupid play and which was scum

what you're missing is that its possible and even probable that both Zeek and I messed up the end of day 1. unless you think that there was any chance of DS not being lynched (yeah right!), then you have to realize that scum gained nothing from the Zeek/Soupfly exchange that led to DS's premature lynch. any scum in their right mind would have sat back and waited for the inevitable to happen instead of engaging in a course of action that would bring suspicion upon them.

although if soup commits one more act of scummery I'll be changing my vote.

despite not being a real word, i hope that "scummery" is not defined as "contradicting QuickBen".

[soupfly]

The whole point is that DS being a Jester was not PLAUSIBLE. It was hardly even POSSIBLE. I would like you (or soupfly) to find me one instance of a mini normal game in which a Jester was included. Please, show me a link.

why would i need to find you an instance of a mini normal game in which a jester was included? i thought it was a ridiculous idea from the beginning, hence the ill timed challenge to Zeek by bringing DS to L-1.

what you need to ask yourself is if Zeek is an inexperienced noob playing a town role (and trying to catch the devious self lynching jester) or scum trying to make sure that DS doesn't escape the D1 lynch mob.

[soupfly]

1535 words (not including quotes)...wow! that must be a new record!

everything about Zeek's game so far (including this last post) is so poorly played and wrought with local fallacies that i'm inclined to give him a noob townie pass...though just barely. if it were up to him half the people in the game would be scum for voicing any kind of suspicion against him. his voting record so far is a veritable manual in how to place OMGUS votes. while i don't think he adds any value to the town's cause i also don't want to lynch another townie...even if his play is bad.

[soupfly]

@Soupfly- couple questions for you as well...

1- Did you believe that DS was a self-lynching jester when you voted him?

2a- If so, why put him at L-1 knowing that someone had just claimed they would end the day if you did so?

2b- If not, why vote him, instead of attacking zeek for proposing and pushing the self-lynching jester theory?

Something is rotten between the two of you. Zeek, this is your chance to get my vote off you. Soupfly, this is your chance to keep my vote off you.

already answered this a bunch of times but here's the summary:
-the whole end of d1 was poorly played by me. i saw the conditioned lynch by Zeek and found it scummy so i thought i'd confront him by putting him in a situation where he could do a scummy thing. he did that thing but afterwards i'm not so sure that he was scum or just dumb noob. i agree that it wasn't a great play by me (i'd already mentioned that i was a little under the influence when i did it) and i won't try to defend it.

-as far as zeek the whole self-lynching thing was really stupid. then the idea that he prejustifies the lynch by conditioning it on somebody putting DS at l-1 was just too scummy for me. i just didn't challenge him in the right way.

-i'm not sure that zeek is scum because i'm leaning towards him being a newb scum based on his ridiculously poor play to date.

-i don't like the case against skruff. i think that is a townie.

-i don't like that msh is seemingly buddying up to zeek. zeek is an obvious lynch target so if i think zeek is town then msh is likely scum.

unvote: quickben

vote: michaelsableheart

[soupfly]

b) All of the people attacking him are the people I am suspicious of being scum.

you think that anybody that has anything negative to say about you is scum. and vice versa. time to rethink your game play.

[soupfly]

@all those against zeek: my d2 suspicion of zeek was clear:

1) he prejustified his hammer...
2) based on a silly self lynching jester theory...
3) which even if correct would not have benefited the town in any way...
4) and to top it all off he made a twilight miller claim.

my question to you all is whether this is the behavior of:

1) newb townie

or

2) newb scum

i don't see any point in the debate against him because he will out-post anybody (length wise) without really adding anything of value to the debate. in other words you can debate him all you want and it won't change a damn thing because his actions are clear regardless of the justification he provides. its up to the rest of us to interpret those actions and decide if he's newb townie or newb scum.

personally i think he's newb townie. the rest of you should just offer your opinion without offering any more arguments regarding his play because those are clear. what i want to know is your your interpretation of his play: newb townie or newb scum.

[soupfly]

i agree that this debate has gone on long enough...i just don't know how much more can be squeezed out of this.

i still think MSH is scum so my vote stays there. i think he's the play for today.

[soupfly]

whatever happens we need to move past this day because the zeek/msh vs skruff discussion is killing the game.

i am keeping my vote on msh. i think that msh is a better candidate for lynch than zeek and that skurff is probably townie. my suspicions: msh > zeek >> skruff

confirm vote: msh

[soupfly]

well i'm here. my apologies to QMAN for not posting after the first prod. i have been pretty much put off by the lengthy and repetitive debate between Zeek/MS and Skruff. i've already stated my feelings about the three and am keeping my vote on MS because i think he is scum trying to buddy up to newb townie player (zeek) that is most likely to get himself lynched because of his poor play (example: i claimed milled therefore i am townie so don't attack me).

i'll do a reread of the last couple of weeks and see if anything new catches my eye.

[soupfly]

while i've come to see his play as being that of newb townie, i can certainly see why zeek is probably going to get lynched.

if he comes up town then i'd look at MSH tomorrow.

[soupfly]

come on guys. zeek is not scum. the charge to lynch him is obviously the easy lynch being encouraged by scum. i'm not saying people on his bandwagon are necessarily scum, but the townies on there need to reconsider this play.

i think this post by skruff says it all.

[soupfly]

well, my credibility must be shot after going after MS and siding with skruffs...bah.