Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[Petunho]

/confirming

[Petunho]

So are we ready to go, now that everybody have confirmed?

[Petunho]

Vote: OhGodMyLife

because it's nice to hit back when you can.

[Petunho]

So randomstage is over.

Unvote: OhGodMyLife

In my eye MichelSableheart's vote was only a vote to get discussion started (and like he said the reason was rubbish) and it's no reason to get so aggressive against him. This is why I also see Disciple Slayer's attack a bit too exaggerated but it's still no reason to start bandwagoning him.

MichelSableheart made a good point when he said that there's clear activity between Disciple Slayer and QuickBen. It's good to keep this early link between them in mind in the future. This said, no-one isn't worthy of my vote yet.

[Petunho]

I'm not liking Slayer's overly aggressive style but that alone doesn't make him look scummy in my eyes. What worries me more is the holes in his logic (those Zeek especially have pointed out) and the 'If you kill me, then kill Zeek' sentence. You really cannot be so sure about Zeek's scumminess at this point to make that kind of post. I'm eagerly waiting for Slayers reply on Zeek's post #51.

[Petunho]

Slayers playing is very disturbing atm and it really doesn't do any favor for the town but I hope that when he gets back here he gives us explanation even if he's not L-1 situation. Like many have commented that there is no reason to wait L-1 to give us his information. I'm also vary of him being Jester but like SensFan said it also seems that Slayer noticed of him being hunted down and draw the Jester-card out to be saved. I'm not ready to lynch him or even giving somebody the opportunity to lynch him before he explains himself. After the explanation I have to rethink Slayer-case.

[Petunho]

Both SoupFly and Zeek have some scummy aspects in their play. Let me look at Zeek first. What bothers me is that he didn't even give town a chance to hear DS opinion in L-1 situation. Zeek made the choice by himself not to give DS the opportunity to explain himself when he got where he wanted. Ok, DS was playing scummy also in my eyes and the 'put me in L-1' shouting didn't do any favor for him, but Zeek making that kind of decision and pre-justification for his lynchvote doesn't look good. You have explained your point of view of the situation and I can see where you are coming from, but the whole situation made you look scummy did you wanted it or not.

I don't think that lynching DS was a bad idea yesterday. I think quickhammering the way you did was a horrible play though.

QFT. My thoughts exactly.

Zeek's claim as miller can be seen in the two perspectives what have been brought up here.
A) Zeek, as a townie, wanted to protect the cop from unnecessary investigation and cop-claim.
B) Zeek, as a scum, wanted to secure his back by saying he would anyhow give guilty inspection result.

There have been good arguments in both directions (Zeek's towniness and scumminess) and I'm not ready to categorize you just one of them 'cause the conflicting facts atm. I have study a bit more the discussion that have been going on here.

SoupFly's attempt to put all the blaim concerning the lynch on Zeek is suspicious in my eyes. Zeek said he would hammer DS and you put him L-1 even if you weren't sure DS's scumminess. Yes, Zeek have to take responsibility for his vote, but you also cannot run the fact that it was you who put DS L-1 knowing that he would be lynched for sure. Would you have put him L-1 if Zeek hasn't told that he would hammer? Was your vote based on the fact that DS would be for sure hammered? You are there for as much responsible for the lynch as Zeek is. You have correctly pointed out that Zeek's statement doesn't change your vote into hammervote, but the statement makes it much more than regular L-1 vote.

Zeek have made some other good points about SoupFly's play and I'm agreeing most of them, but because I'm not even sure about Zeek's innocence, I'll hold my vote for now and check the situation more closely before jumping with my vote.

[Petunho]

Lots of discussion concerning Zeek's motives. By reading the posts again and following the discussion more closely I'm now leaning more towards SoupFly's scumminess than Zeek's. Zeek have IMO explained reasons for his actions well and most of people are just ignoring the explanations and shouting basically only 'You hammered! You hammered!.

Yesterday many of us wanted explanation from DS before L-1 and I see Zeek's way by saying 'I'll lynch' making it possible to demand explanation from DS before he really is L-1. I really don't think a real scum would neither claim to be a miller that early, I don't see anything for the scum to gain for this. This WIFOM-accusation is in my mind in very thin base. Zeek have pointed out SoupFly's scumminess and I'm even more agreeing them now than I was before. Putting somebody you think is townie L-1 just to proof your opinion is in wrong and going after the player based on that it ain't looking good to me neither. This said:

Vote: soupfly

I don't also like that we're again going full speed against one player and ignoring many other players on the way.

[Petunho]

Sorry the absence. Checking the game's progress briefly, but there is no reason for me to change my vote.

My logic for voting DS is as follows:
1) DS was going to get lynched regardless. the only question was would it happen sooner or later.
2) Given 1, I used my vote to push Zeek into a position where if he voted to hammer DS then it would essentially out him as being scum.

You made the lynch sooner that wasn't good thing to do. Like there have mentioned before, you knew that Zeek would vote, so what new information did your L-1 vote give us from Zeek - none. And from you - scummy move.

now here's a question for those of you voting me. how can you let someone justify a hammer by saying that:

1) they are somehow helping town by killing a self-lynching jester
2) they had threatened to lynch if taken to L-1 so its not their fault that they hammered.

It's not only case of Zeek's actions, but it's also case of your actions and your actions are those which I see more scummier. There for vote for you and not for Zeek.

To answer those questions.
1) Lynching self-lynching jester is not pro-town, because it prevents town from winnig the game. I'm not here to come second place, I'm here for the win. Allowing self-lynching jester lynch himself would put us second or third place and Zeek didn't want to see that happening, and neither did I. I have to admit that this self-lynching jester sounds very rare and that's why I don't completely stand behind Zeek's actions, but I can see what he was going after and that's also why my vote isn't on him
2) I don't think Zeek have said the lynch wasn't his fault. He's saying it wasn't completely his fault and I agree with this. You cannot put the whole lynch on his shoulders, because there were other people also involved in the lynching.

[Petunho]

I'll be leaving this evening on vacation and I'll be gone untill next thursday. Internet access is most likely zero during that time.

Hope to see Soupfly's explanation on his accusations if you have some. And 'cause I'll be gone for a while, I shall mention, that I'm still happy with my vote on souplfly.

[Petunho]

Back from vacation.

Still not explanation from Soupfly for his vote on me. Hoping to get one when he gets back.

Once again Michel has made some very good points us to look more closely. Point made of geraintm's play are interesting and good to keep in mind. Just focusing on one popular target is a bit suspicious, but in my eyes he's not the most suspicious atm. I have to agree with geraintm that this game has been difficult but focusing on one player doesn't much help us to make scumhunting easier.

Lowell's lack of participation and some post makes me uneasy and the errors in his posts are suspicious. We have to look more closely on him when he posts some content again. I have some trouble of making my mind of SensFan and hope to hear also more from him.

Michel have given me protown vibes through the game and I like that he's concentrating on many people not only one top suspect. OGML, TSpN, Zeek and QuickBen are on the gray area.

[Petunho]

Unvote: SoupFly

There have risen two suspects over SoupFly in mind: QuickBen and Lowell. QB has been lurking a lot and Zeek summarized well accusations against him in post 251. I can go behind lot of those accusations and I see his actions scum trying to fly under the radar and hoping the town to do all of the work. Also the ignorance towards the game makes me uneasy, a good protown player shouldn't act like that.

Lowell's actions has been also suspicious and the ignorance of other peoples questions disturbs me. He has to answer questions asked from him. Townie hasn't anything to hide so I really suspect his actions on this matter.

I'm swinging between these two people, but I turn to QB 'cause his worse lurking and total ignorance towards the game so,

Vote: QuickBen

[Petunho]

Received prod. I'll post tomorrow.

[Petunho]

After QuickBen came back he made a list of his suspects and surprisingly it included all the players that had voted for him. Yes there was some base for those accusations but being so clear just to put suspicion on all the players voting for him struck really bad on my eye.

Truth. I can't help but feel that people who are bandwagoning quickben either don't want to lynch lowell, or just aren't really paying attention.

And still you put soupfly in the bottom of your scummy list in post 275. And who is your second protown player? Skruffs, whose summary post wasn't that great and based on just that summary(?) you put him in most protown player in your list. Could you explain this?

And you repeat Skuffs innocence again in post 283:

Here you go, lowell. As for "not wanting to get involved in what is happening around you," I don't really think michael or skruffs are scum, so I'm not going to switch my vote off of you. Sounds to me like you expected to be able to lurk through the day and people would forget about you.

Why did you brought Skruffs name again up and stated he wasn't scum? Even more oddly you compared Skruffs to Michel (who really is looking the most protown) when stating they aren't scums. Why was that? I think you make lot of effort to make Skruffs look townie when he really doesn't look that townie.

Soupfly's style of jumping with his votes disturbs and even more he rarely gives his own explanation for his votes. Also the try to buddy up with Michel in post 288 looked weird to me.

[Petunho]

Sorry for my absence (exam week and computer's HD said "Poof"). I'll post tomorrow.

[Petunho]

Why does michel look the most townie to you?
It sounds like you are being hypocritical here, accusing TSPN of something you are doing in the same paragraph you are accusing him of doing it in.

He's in my mind really trying to find the bad guys: really analyzing things and questonin players. Like I said he looks like protown player and that doesn't mean he's townie, but I think he has helped the town a lot and that counts in my books.

I didn't do the same as TSPN was doing. He was trying to make you look protown without you being protown at all. I just stated my opinion but TSPN made too much effort to make you look good. That was the case that popped in my eye. (And to this he gave an answer already)

I personally dislike the whole poisoning-flavour thing 'cause ut seems too stretched and you really cannot make assumptions that people have tried to make. You can always speculate but I myself wouldn't build my case on it.

I'm still suspicious of QuicBen andnow he's simplifies things too much for my taste (zeek/soupfly scumminess especially). He is focused on those two and let's other things to slip by him too easily. I admit that soupfly looks also scummy and his actions especially voting behaviour bothers me, but the case against Zeek is still too thin for me to really cast heavy suspicion against him.

Skruffs has brought up lot of things that has been answered earlier and that shows to me, that he didn't really focus reading the whole thread properly through. Accusing people on already explained stuff disturbs the discussion and really looks he hasn't clear picture what have happened earlier. This unclear picture of history disturbs his scumhunting, where have been some flaws in it.

[Petunho]

I would say that Skruffs' attack against Michel looks to be based on faulty reasoning and ignorance of Michel's explanations.Yes, there are some good points made by Skruffs, but there has been also twisting and misinterpreation of both Zeek's and Michel's posts, that I'm not in any way convinced that those players are scums.

There was talk about who was leading thewagon against DS yesterday and I would also say SensFan, who was both agressive and loud against DS. Zeek made in my mind good recap in post #369 where it clearly stands that SensFan was the player who pushed the wagon when it seemed to stop. To his defence I have to say DS almost demanded that wagon was pushed forward. So, like Michel said SensFan pushed the wagon and Zeek and Soupfly finished DS off.

Zeek has made also some disturbing post in particular the post where he said something like "If cop did that it cannot be scummy". And like many have corrected him, this is not the case in anyway. Everybody can act scummily and just based on their role their actions doesn't make all of their sayings scummy-free.

On the other hand Zeek has made good points and I still cannot believe someone is still questioning him about the cases we have cleared many times. It is good to question people, but asking the same questions again and again is not contributing the game anything new. So, Zeek did you believe DS was selflynching jester? And yeah, you don't have to answer this question...again.

I am dissecting you and Michel's Actions, Zeek, and I am seeing scum all the way to the core. Both of you are scum, I'm willing to bet on it. Both of you need to be lynched, and if it means afterwards that I should be lynched for "knowing" it, then that's fine by me, because that means I still traded out two scum lynches for a town lynch, and you can quote me on that.

I'm not loving this post at all. You just cannot be so certain off their scumminess and especially when your accusations doesn't look so convincing to me. This post disturbs me a lot.

-i don't like the case against skruff. i think that is a townie.

Why?

The case on MSH is looking better and better all the time.

I would like to know why, 'cause in my eye the case looks worse and worse all the time.

[Petunho]

He had more to do with the DS lynch than I initially gave him credit for. And I also didn't notice the amount of buddying up he's been doing with zeek. I don't think, like skruffs, that that definitely makes them both scum. But, from my perspective, defending zeek is a stretch. . . unless you happen to be scum and know he's town. I still think its more like zeek is scum, but he's moving up my list.

That buddying seems a bit odd to me also, but the explanations given by Michel are logical and that's why I don't see it as scummy as you apparently see it. From Zeek&Michel pair, I see Zeek being also the more likely scum, but still Skruffs and his twisted accusations looks much worse to me than Zeek&Michel case. How do you TSPN see these twists in his accusations?

I didn't say they "weren't scummy"... I said that since the cop played that way, it's not necessarily a good way to find scum for attacking people who played similar to the cop.

I stand corrected.

[Petunho]

Same debate has been going on for several days and I'm more and more leaning towards Skruffs, but while QuickBen has again gone lurking again (9 days to be exact) I'm not willing to remove my vote from him just because he hasn't participated and there for gone under radar and unnoticed - again. On QuickBens side there have risen Skruffs with his twisty accusations and sometimes completely ignorance of both Zeeks and Michels responds to him. Partly this is why I get all the time these déjà vus reading this thread.

Also those appeals to emotion ("Let's kill them and if I'm wrong I'm willing to die for that") and this sentence "I WASN'T IN THE GAME DAY ONE!!! " disturbed me a lot. You have to live with your predecessors actions. Ok, you cannot read his mind what he was thinking, but that doesn't mean the whole town have to forget how SensFan acted. In other words: You are SensFan. Also 'cause I read especially Michels play completely different than you that makes me even more suspicious of you.

I'm waiting for QuicBens return and his read on the game and his reactions to answers to his questions he asked both Zeek and Soupfly. How did their answers change your perspective on them, or did it change at all?

[Petunho]

@Everyone: I have presented my case against Skruffs in my previous post (#442). I would really like to get some reactions to that.

- I am insinuating that you want to put Lowell 'within lynching range' so that Zeek (or your other partner) can quick hammer again today, JUST LIKE YESTERDAY, with DS. Remember how you left him at -1? When you know Zeek, a very active player, intended to hammer?

And you have undoubtely noticed that I was responding to a plan of TSpN? And that I was arguing that that plan would be difficult to make work? [sarcasm]Yeah, I'm definately trying to make people follow that plan so that Lowell will get in lynching range there[/sarcasm].

Again evidence that Skruffs isn't eiher reading the thread correctly or he on purpose tries to twist things like he wants them. This wasn't the first nor the last time he did this and he have continued to twist posts so, that they support his case against Michel and Zeek.

Seriously. Can we lynch him now? Like, what else does he have to do to get some votes?

There's a good chance he's mafia, and if we don't lynch skruffs today, I would like to see Lowell hanging. However, I'm convinced Skruffs is scum, and believe there is a good possibility we take out an entire anti-town killing group if we lynch him. Which makes Skruffs a better lynch candidate then Lowell.

Both of them looks scummy to me and Lowells comeback didn't excatly impress me, but Skruffs looks even more scummy to me with all of his twisting and I agree with Michel that lynching Skruffs is better choice today from those two.

First, there's SensFan's behaviour during the day 1 wagon.

SensFan was the person reviving the bandwagon and driving it to the end, but, like TSpN mentioned, DS played so badly, it's hard to determine the scums just looking at the bandwagon. We cannot neither ignore the bandwagon and persons who lead it.

Then, during the night, YvonneSeer was killed.
Which seems like a rather strange choice to me. Even knowing that YvonneSeer was the cop, I don't read that in her posts. YvonneSeer didn't read as shinily pro-town, nor as a huge threat to the scum. As far as I can see, there's only one noteworthy thing she did: have a big argument with SensFan about how likely it was that DS was a jester. An argument in which SensFan was unable to convince her. To me, one of the most likely reasons for the kill of Yvonne seems to be that SensFan couldn't convince YvonneSeer to follow his lead.

This could be the case, but I'm not that convinced about it. To me also Yvonnes kill seemed a bit odd and it's a bit hard to tell anything from the kill. Your explanation is the best given so far, but even that isn't that good.

Then, there is SensFan jumping on the Zeek wagon early during day 2.

Bad things seems to pile against this one person. The case against SensFan is growing bigger an bigger. Seeing the easy bandwagon rising against Zeek and jumping on it adds again one point to SensFan is scum case.

I see Skruffs using the same arguments over and over, completely disregarding any attempts at explanation.

This is what have stroke to my eye very badly. This has continued the entire day since he replaiced SensFan. Repeating his accusations over and over looks like he is hoping that, if he repeats those accusations frequently enough Zeek or Michel just stop to argue with him and that makes his accusations true.

Petunho, I understand your suspicion of QuickBen. I also think he is likely to be mafia. But do you not suspect that BOTH Skruffs and QuickBen could be mafia? If so, you should put a vote on Skruffs.

Now that QuickBen gets replaced and I'm not gonna have my answers from him, I'm gladly removing my vote to as scummy player as QB was the reasons mentioned in this post and previously -

Unvote, Vote: Skruffs

.

[Petunho]

If you think QuickBEn is scum, then voting for the 'second likely candidate' is bullshit.

I said this in my post where I voted for you:

I'm gladly removing my vote to

as scummy player as QB was

the reasons mentioned in this post and previously

So as you can see, I see you too equally scummy.

You seem to think that quickben, lowell (Two lurkers), and me are all scum : What about Zeek and Michel have led you to agree with them in voting me? That's exactly what your last post is, agreeing with one side and joining them against another without posting actual opinions of your own.

Yes, I voted because I agree with the accusations made by Michel and Zeek. Nothing especially about Zeek and Micel personally have led me to agree with them. Because the accusations made by them against you are something that I can see also being true and looking the debate between the two groups has led me to the conclusion you have to be scum. Constant twisting of words of Michel and Zeek to make false accusations against them and the holes in your logic (especially "the lynch me and if I'm wrong lynch me") makes me even certain of your scumminess.

Also those appeals to emotion ("Let's kill them and if I'm wrong I'm willing to die for that") and this sentence "I WASN'T IN THE GAME DAY ONE!!! " disturbed me a lot.

These are not appeals to emotion. An appeal to emotion would be saying "Don't lynch me guys, I'm having a really hard day and I overreacted." It's when you try to get people to sympathize with you in order to avoid being lynched. Not being in the game day one is NOT an appeal to emotion: It is a fact that is irrefutable. (More below)

A bit of typo in my post, I meant that the first one was appeal to emotion and the second (I WASN'T... -thingy) only disturped me of being ridiculous. Still I see that "I'm willing to be killed..." thing appeal to emotion to get symphatized by other people like "if he is ready to get lynched he have to be right". Btw. It's not only in the situation where you are in danger of getting lynched, when you can appeal to emotion.

If you are not going to unvote me, at least EXPLAIN specifically what is making you vote me over Zeek or Michel. This goes to LOWELL and PETUNHO.

You three aren't certainly the only ones for me to vote. Reasons my vote on you are:
* Your constant twisting of other peoples sayings to make accusations against them
* Holes in your logic. Especially this one:

4 - Michel is town, I am scum.
There's no reason for scum to trade off 1 for 1 with a townie.

Not true like Zeek pointed out in post #494.
* Your appeal to emotion ("If I'm wrong kill me")
* SensFans actions before you
= Counting all of these things together I get the result of you really pushing misslynch --> You are scum!

-----------

Ting brought up an interesting point in his post #500 where he pointed out that there's Townie role PM in page one. That eats out really badly Zeeks no-vanillas claim, but in the same time I don't remember seeing that PM either.. How could have we missed that post.

I'll be gone from tomorrow 23.2. untill next tuesday 26.2., so no posts from me during that period.

[Petunho]

Quick reply on this one thing I just cannot slip. I'll elaborate my suspicion against you Skruffs after I'm back, but now I don't have the time to look every twisting you have made. So to the point:

Me expressing my sureness is, outright and foremost, an attempt by me to convince others to believe me.
In the absence of evidence, this is what scum hunting is.
A) Figure out who scum are.
B) Interrogate/question them to more directly confirm your suspicions.
C) Convince other players to agree with you.
D) Lynch them to see if you are right.

I am being accused of doing C in a manner that other players are not familiar or perhaps comfortable with, but I am also doing A, and B.

You have done A and B, but this C... You have tried to convince people to believe your accusations with reasoning, when you noticed that you cannot convince enough players on your side, you came up with this "If I'm wrong, kill me". How the hell is that even close convincing people of your accusations correctness. If I don't believe your reasoning I'm not gonna believe you after that nor should anyone. That's just bullshit reasoning and I'm not giving up with this appeal to emotion thing, even though you really try to say it's not that. You appeal to peoples emotion by saying:

I'm so sure about myself I'm willing to sacrifice myself. Sacrifice! Sacrifice! I'm gonna be a martyr! You have to believe me, please believe me. Please! *Add some Skruffs' tears here*

Bullshit I say! Bullshit!

[Petunho]

Hi! I just post this to clarify my reasons for my resigning from this game (and all other games here also). I'm requesting replacement 'cause I really don't have enough time to play this wonderfull but time consuming game. I also asked replacement for my other game Mini #553, so it's nothing against this game, I just don't have the time in my hand to play this game (Mafia that is) regulary enough. So, sorry this mess up. Make your assumptions of me based on anything else than my replacement request.

~Petunho

ps. I didn't even have a clue that there was suspicion on me when I asked to be replaced.

[Petunho]

I mean, yeah he claimed that he "didn't have time" as his reason to leave - but he sure seemed to have enough time when no one was voting for him and he was just jumping on all those bandwagons...

I really didn't have time to concentrate to this game. I had started on my Bachelor's thesis, and that and other school work just took every spare time I had.

It would have been interesting to play this game to the end and see if I could have talked my way out of the rising voting against me. I think I wouldn't have succeeded as well as BM did. I was honored to be replaced by BM and it was so close for him to go all the way.

The first night kill was pure luck that I hit on he cop, but I et very mixed up 'cause I did mention in my NightKill PM to Qman that 'Poison woul be nice'. I really thought that was the reason why poisoning was brought up and I didn't think even a second that there would be a serialkiller.

It was interesting to follow this game even after I got replaced and see how BM allmost made it.