Mini 1869- camn's revenge GAME OVER!


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Post Post #275 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:56 pm

Post by TheRealGin-N-Tonic »

Also I asked for a flashwagon on me and then people vote you so like, what gives?
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Post Post #276 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Post by Aeronaut »

In post 231, mastina wrote:
In post 149, Aeronaut wrote:Mastin, I respect your reasoning on how Pine would draft, but I also feel like Pine's trying to fuck with us. Your strong reaction to not being picked and assumption that nacho MUST be scum just makes me think that it could have easily been done on purpose like that, to get you two at each other throats.
Huh. Weird. I swear I've heard this reasoning before.
In post 27, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.
Oh yeah. That's because I have.
And? I'm pretty sure that's what most of this game thinks, since it's you know, common sense.
Also justsayin this was a scumpost through-and-through.
The first section echoing TheRealGin-N-Tonic. That section having been bad in the first place. Writing off Pine's choices as unreadable, when the whole fucking point of this game is outguessing Pine. (Literally this game is outguess Pine: the game. That's the whole fucking theme of the game, and Aeronaut is telling us
not
to do that, to treat this game as if it were normal...when that's exactly what Pine would want.) Saying Pine is unpredictable. The whole Nacho/mastina bit. And most of all, the vote on drealmerz, who is basically the most obvtown of the players who have history with Pine.
Yep, I'm the only one who thinks we shouldn't let a game designed to fuck with us fuck with us, obviously. That's why nacho is the leading wagon, right?
In post 233, mastina wrote:
In post 155, Aeronaut wrote:Why?
Because it's the case.
Ok, well how are we expected to ever do anything with your read of him if you're not going to give us a reason why?
By trying to figure out the read on your own.
And from this, forming your own read.
And viewing by your own lens.
And reflecting by that.
You know, standard stuff that you'd have to do anyway?
Ok, well I don't know if you've played the game of mafia before, but usually the way to lynch someone isn't by telling everyone "Figure out the reasons for yourself" because as you said, most players are bad and they won't.

Ergo, in this game, Pine knows that people are going to assume that he made wifomy choices. Yet, wifomy choices are suboptimal for him: they lack team synergy and they lack strength of a scumgame. So, by making wifomy choices, Pine not only would be doing what the town expects of him, he would also be leaving himself with a much, much weaker scumbase.
This actually, is the definition of WIFOM. Pine wouldn't do WIFOM because he thinks we'd think he'd do WIFOM but he wouldn't do that because...

etc.
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Post Post #277 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:58 pm

Post by TheRealGin-N-Tonic »

In post 209, camn wrote:drealmerz7 --------- 3 ( Vaxkiller, Aeronaut, pisskop, Pine ) L- 4
3 ( Vaxkiller, Aeronaut, pisskop, Pine ) L- 4
Hey Camn, thought you said Pine was a tree stump, so why is his vote being used?
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Post Post #278 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:04 pm

Post by Aeronaut »

I'm over it mastina. If you feel like giving any scum reads this game, go ahead! Otherwise, your reminiscing about outdated games isn't helping anyone. It's great that you had fun with pine what three years ago, but now is now and in case you didn't notice, this game wasn't made for you.


Having said that, I'm very certain mastina is town, here. Town who is going to ego their way around and be wrong, but pretty obviously town. People on the mastin wagon are fooling themselves if they think mastin comes in here and pulls this crazy bullshit.

VOTE: Sircakes

SC and Drealz are both on that wagon, but bear is kind of right, drealz interactions with mastin are becoming more and more obvious town.
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Post Post #279 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:07 pm

Post by Aeronaut »

inb4 Mastina quotes 278, with "obvious scum post, you all should know why" and then doesn't vote me anyway
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Post Post #280 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:13 pm

Post by drealmerz7 »

it's not about standing ground vs. being seen as coward

it's mafia, I've been wrong before, it's all good

it's more about when the read is right and when it is wrong and making best judgement of which is which and that is what I'm doing with you, and everyone else

and yes, I've only been playing mafia a bit over a year, but do realize you also don't have any insight into a majority of my games or how I play (or where I comefrom and how all of that is - noobs on my HS often play better than 75% of the many-years-experienced players here on MS)
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Post Post #281 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:16 pm

Post by drealmerz7 »

@pine's rolefishing - MAHAHAHA!!!
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Post Post #282 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:16 pm

Post by Pine »

Well, on your HS, everyone knows each other well and you all have similar experience. It's not the same.
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Post Post #283 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:18 pm

Post by TheRealGin-N-Tonic »

This is honestly so much noise.
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Post Post #284 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Post by drealmerz7 »

In post 282, Pine wrote:Well, on your HS, everyone knows each other well and you all have similar experience. It's not the same.
it's not about that though

and no, not everyone knows eachother, just some know each other to a decent degree, more ppl have familiarity with each other, but again, it's not even about that

it's about how the game is played, the depth and style of play due to the culture (which is founded from veryvery experienced mafia players) - there is some off-the-hook shit there

anyway, people tire of me talking about my HS and I tired of talking about it, but it is good stuff to know, still

you should go sign up for the next game, it's in signups
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Post Post #285 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Post by drealmerz7 »

nacho, you going to come play or are you swamped?
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Post Post #286 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:24 pm

Post by Aeronaut »

Gin, you have any preliminary reads right now? So far I know that you disagree with mastin's spec, but what else?
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Post Post #287 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:25 pm

Post by Aeronaut »

I am definitely curious what nacho's take on it is.
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Post Post #288 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:27 pm

Post by Monokuma »

In post 264, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
In post 263, mastina wrote:Fuck your claim of being able to do this and recognize that *I* am the one who actually can. Pine was one of my first, and closest friends, and bitter rivals, and nobody knows how he operates better than I do. You lack the game experience and you lack the personal connection. I have both. That's not arrogance speaking. That's just pure simple fact. I have the most games with Pine of any player. I have the most personal connection to Pine of any player.
In post 244, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'm thinking its more ego related at this point
Looks like I was right
In post 274, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So mastin, on a scale of 1 to wrong, how sure are you that I'm scum?
VOTE: Gin

Cakez, today's your lucky day. Gin's been selected for punishment!
Do I need to explain why? He's guilty,
guilty
! So much effort against mastina, who he's calling us to ignore until a later date! His lack of effort to do anything besides complain is bothering my sniffer something fierce. But I wouldn't bring such a serious accusation to the court without evidence! See above, judge for yourselves. The outcome doesn't matter so long as you try... NOT. Punish the guilty party or be punished yourselves!
Let's give it everything we've got! It's punishment time!
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Post Post #289 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:28 pm

Post by TheRealGin-N-Tonic »

I GOT A VOTE! WOO!

@Pikachu, give me a minute
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Post Post #290 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:29 pm

Post by Monokuma »

Alright alright alright alright alright.

mastina, friend, buddy, pal, compadre, other word that means a person with whom I have an amicable relationship with, let's have a chit chat, yeah? We'd so love for you to be town. Really. It feels so right, it does, but we're not so naive as to call you obvious town at this point. That said, I do feel what Aeronaut is feeling right now when he says you're obviously town. Aeronaut and us, we're on a WAVELENGTH yo. We're on a CURRENT. We're on a FREQUENCY. Sometimes I like repeating the same sentence over and over using slightly different words, I find it humorous. Do you?

Doesn't matter. What matters is that Aeronaut is like, obviously town. He's SO town. He's town to the BONE. Or he would be, if Pokemon had bones. But they don't. They're made of magic and sunshine and murder. Mostly magic though. But figuratively, he's town to the bone. Every time he posts, he's just spewing town out of every Poke-oriface he's got. It's kind of gross, but endearing at the same time. So as much as we love and respect you, and as much as we wanna work with you, I gotta stop you at this particular junction. You're wrong about Aeronaut, girl. You just are. Take a breath, smoke some weed, and look at that Pokedude again and rethink that read. Please & thank you <3
Let's give it everything we've got! It's punishment time!
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Post Post #291 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:31 pm

Post by drealmerz7 »

*bongpass*

yep, aeronaut probably town
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Post Post #292 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:34 pm

Post by TheRealGin-N-Tonic »

Monokuma, do you have a sense of humor?

Whenever I do a reads list I like making funny names and I want to make sure you won't take it personal if I make a pun
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Post Post #293 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 pm

Post by Monokuma »

In post 277, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
In post 209, camn wrote:drealmerz7 --------- 3 ( Vaxkiller, Aeronaut, pisskop, Pine ) L- 4
3 ( Vaxkiller, Aeronaut, pisskop, Pine ) L- 4
Hey Camn, thought you said Pine was a tree stump, so why is his vote being used?
oh oh oh, one more thing.
You see that little three next to drealmerz's name? A bit tiny and insignificant, I know. But at 7 to lynch, L-4 means 3 votes! We think you gotta check your math.
Let's give it everything we've got! It's punishment time!
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Post Post #294 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:37 pm

Post by Monokuma »

In post 292, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Monokuma, do you have a sense of humor?

Whenever I do a reads list I like making funny names and I want to make sure you won't take it personal if I make a pun
What an insult!!!!! We're taking it personal that you don't think we have a sense of humour!!!!! Beclaws look at us! I can't bear to think we haven't been making it clear as crystal... honey, just who do you think you're talking to?
Let's give it everything we've got! It's punishment time!
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Post Post #295 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:39 pm

Post by TheRealGin-N-Tonic »

In post 294, Monokuma wrote:
In post 292, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Monokuma, do you have a sense of humor?

Whenever I do a reads list I like making funny names and I want to make sure you won't take it personal if I make a pun
What an insult!!!!! We're taking it personal that you don't think we have a sense of humour!!!!! Be
claws
look at us! I can't
bear
to think we haven't been making it clear as crystal...
honey
, just who do you think you're talking to?
You are my favorite person in this game right now
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Post Post #296 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 234, drealmerz7 wrote:with the additional skill of being able to town it up so much as scum
This is not a skill I have.

"But...you just laid out why you're a good scum player."

Yes. I am a good scum player. But it's not from being able to town it up so much as scum--towning it up as scum is, ironically, suicidal in the longterm. That sounds counterintuitive, but every god-tiered scum player recognizes that the best scum
aren't
the ones who make you think they are the towniest of town players. The best scum players are the players who you can reasonably deduce to be scum...and yet, for some reason you never decide to actually lynch them. There's always someone who's a higher priority. There's always someone who is a better target, who must be lynched before them. That is the mark of the god-tiered scum player.

And I'll tell you why: a scum player who towns it up? Is vulnerable to paranoia. Towns love paranoia. It only takes two days for it to build up. Even in a micro, that's viable. In a mini, still viable. In a large, you better believe it. Scum live off of exploiting town paranoia...which is a bit difficult to do if scum would be lynched THANKS to the paranoia. Scum do not want to be the towniest of town players, because then one of two things happens:
-The scum player cruises off of their early town credit, and paranoia builds that, "Hmm, maybe that player was scum, who towned it up early and is cruising on the towncred?"
-The scum player continues to town it up the whole time, and paranoia builds that, "This player has been towning it up the whole time, and yet they've never been nightkilled. Why?"
While the latter is easier to overcome as far as paranoia goes, it also requires a level of time, effort, and commitment which is beyond any level of reasonable. Staying town as scum is hard. REALLY hard. You have to further a scum wincon without looking like you are furthering a scum wincon, and all the while you have to look sincere and have believable stances which will hold up in hindsight, something that is near-impossible to maintain.

So, scum don't want to get themselves towned up early. That sets expectations of them that they cannot, absolutely, CANNOT continue to hold the whole game. So instead, the master-level scum players. The best of the best. Have mastered the skill of moderation: they know exactly when to post, and when
not
to post. They know what to give, and what not to give. They know exactly how to stay below the top of obvtown players, and yet high enough in the hierarchy to avoid being in range of power roles that could fuck them over. (E.g. cop, vig, tracker.)

The master scum player is a masterful scum player not because it's impossible to spot them...but because it's impossible to actually lynch them. Because there's always better targets. Because there's always someone who deserves the lynch, deserves the vig, deserves the cop, more.

This is a skill Pine knows. This is a skill Nacho knows. This is a skill that we, as veteran players, mastered years ago. We can articulate this knowledge, because back in our day it was common understanding of how these things worked. Players nowadays, on the other hand, don't understand this as well. The best scum from the 2015-2016 range have an instinctive knowledge of what I'm saying here being true, but they'd never be able to explain it. They'd never attribute their victories, their skills, to this art, because they wouldn't know about it consciously. Yet on a subconscious level, they learned to harness it all the same, without actually knowing what it was.

Players like Nacho, Pine, and me, though, we can actively tell you exactly how it works. Especially me since explaining how moves work is kinda...my shtick.
HOLY SHIT, mastina looks and sounds like me playing my top-notch scumgame
What'll REALLY blow your mind is that your top-notch scumgame is just another day in the park for me as town, and that MY top-notch scumgame is in another league entirely. I already linked you to Green Day, but others? I'd encourage browsing Inorganic Chemistry (I literally cheekily scumclaimed my first post! And had the gall to claim it was a softclaim for a town role!), World of Warcraft (AP invited me to replace in, which told me he was asking me to be his scumbuddy and I said fuck yeah), Paranoia (in which I not only needed to beat the town but BEAT MY OWN SCUMTEAM TO WIN), Book of Shadows (Titus did most of the work, which is why I don't often remember this game as all I did was finish the job), Attack on Titan (a close loss, but one where I went from having ALL THREE WAGONS D1 ON SCUM at the time I replaced in to mislynching town D1), Left 4 Dead Mafia (in which I correctly predicted a cop would investigate me and rather than counterclaim the cop, I claimed scum, causing the entire town to think that the cop for the game was a fake because surely mastina wouldn't have let herself be lynched otherwise: basically the game where LYNCHING ME caused my team to win because I had specifically laid out a path to victory for my scumteam and told them to bus me), Resistance Mafia (I had an epic battle with RedCoyote at the end in lylo, which I lost), Chain of Command, Mind-Reader Mafia, this game (also modded by killerjester and also with AP where we dominated), and who can forget...the infamous Anything (fucking) Goes. There's also my first good scumgame, which I already mentioned was Good vs. Evil, Chaos vs. Law, but anything older than that's not entertaining to watch unless your definition of entertaining is watching me be HILARIOUSLY bad as scum.
tell us, why sign up to be in the pine revenge game and then offer yourself for a 1v1 on D1?
Because I know Pine and knowing that he didn't make me scum means that I know he made Nacho scum.
Also, site search "Mastin Gambit".
You'll find some pretty interesting things. (Well, presumably, if the site search actually works well enough.)
if you're town and know pine SO WELL, you would never want to give yourself up so early before being able to help your fellow townies through the game
Son, if the game can't be broken by the end of day one, I aint doing it right. Also, it's not exactly like getting lynched D1 is plan A. Getting lynched is the consequence for if I am wrong, and something I intend to happen on D2. (Not D1.) Which gives me all of D2 to prepare for giving updated thoughts and whatnot.
mastina, what do you think about my claim to have the growing ability to almost soul-read pine?
It's not shit because you're almost right on stuff, but it's still shitty because you're misapplying it and ending up coming to the wrong conclusions.
In short, your process is good enough where I'd say it's possible.
Your conclusions still need work.
also, for how much you are claiming to be able to help us with the pine-figuring, you're not, you're just piling up the mountains of WIFOM for distribution as the game goes along
Do tell.
I've laid out not only why Pine would do the things he did, and not only why I think that Nacho is scum, but also showing players for being scum outside of that.

Now granted.
I haven't EXPLAINED.
Showing's different from explaining.
But I've SHOWED you players that are scum, outside of speccing. And then gone on to explain why Pine would do what he has.
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Post Post #297 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:41 pm

Post by Monokuma »

In post 292, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Monokuma, do you have a sense of humor?
No. We hate humor. Despise it. We've never laughed in our life. One time, someone told us a joke. We killed them.
Spoiler:
Image
Let's give it everything we've got! It's punishment time!
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Post Post #298 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:48 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 236, drealmerz7 wrote:so you're here to help, but, we've got to do it alone?
Almost.
Think of it as...being a mentor who knows the answer, and can give it to the student, but who knows that just telling the student won't make them understand. The best way for the student to comprehend is to be given the path, and then work their way through it.

Think of it this way.

As a teacher I could tell you:
X + 1 = 4.
X + 1 - 1 = 4 - 1
X = 3.
This explains the process step by step...but the student might not accept the lesson.
Or, I could tell you:
"X + 1 = 4.
X is 3. Now, how did I know that?"

And suddenly the student is forced to work their way through it and figure that out. One teaches more than the other. And is therefore more useful than the other. So yes. I'm here to help. I will give you the answers. When you struggle, I will even give you clues as to the process. When continuing to struggle, I will make those clues continuously more explicit. But my expectation of you is always that you are meant to figure out the process on your own.

In the context of a mafia game, this is more than just me being an IC in a non-newbie game. It serves a distinct purpose beyond that, but for that, I'll leave it to you to figure out what the motivation behind my actions are. (No, it's not that as scum I'm incapable of generating my own reasoning. I'll tell you that. Now figure out what it actually is.)
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Post Post #299 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:48 pm

Post by camn »

In post 277, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
In post 209, camn wrote:drealmerz7 ---------
>>3<<
( Vaxkiller, Aeronaut, pisskop, Pine ) L- 4
3 ( Vaxkiller, Aeronaut, pisskop, Pine ) L- 4
Hey Camn, thought you said Pine was a tree stump, so why is his vote being used?
"if you weren't trying to be so unnecessarily mysterious all the time we wouldn't have these misunderstandings" - Yosarian2
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