Open 53: Near-Vanilla - Game over!

[Shanba]

Hi.

Vote: Jdodge

God I can't wait till I'll be able to catch up with some games.

[Shanba]

Unvote vote: deadscilent

*menacing glare*

[Shanba]

Disciple Slayer, do you actually think this is a good way to play?

First you fake claim, than you claim again, which is clearly fake.

FoS: Disciple Slayer

DFTT

[Shanba]

-_-

Unvote Vote: ThesweatpantsNinja

Will everyone please state whether or not they think a DS policy lynch is a good idea

Pretty sure it's a bad idea. Like, a really bad idea. I'm also shocked that we have discussion on who is the doc and whether we should be policy lynching, at all. Like, srsly.

[Shanba]

Why are we not lynching TSN?

[Shanba]

Cause he's scum.

[Shanba]

Well you know, thats a good enough reason (Eye roll)

So you saying that you don't want to lynch scum?

[Shanba]

No, that's not it.

I'm not sure what to do about DS. Ignore him? Lynch him? I can't get any kind of an actual read on him, and maybe that's the point. If so, I sort of want to lynch him on principle.

I hate this post. It reads thusly to me:
I want to be told what to do about DS. I will leave myself an out either way depending on how the rest of the town react. I will look like I'm contributing, while in reality my post will say nothing useful."
The policyu lynch thing is only a minor part of why I hate the post. It's so... indecisive.

[Shanba]

Shanba.....I don't like how definate your being, with not that much bearing to be definite on. I think TSN's post is decidedly innocent. While it's a crummy strategy, a scum's major goal during the day time is to throw confusion into the face of the pro-towners. While he is being crappy at it, this is what DS is doing. So TSN is merely pointing out that maybe we should keep an eye on him. I think it's fine. And now what your doing, Shanba, reeks to me of a scum trying to lynch an innocent. You don't wanna lynch DS, because he's way too much the easy way out. You can paint TSN with just enough scumminess to cover your own tail. So, thusly,

vote: Shanba

OK, fair enough. You think my attack on TSN is me trying to get a townie lynched. You state that I am being too definite for the evidence provided, and that I'm avoiding the DS wagon because its too easy.

WEll, let's first look at a few of your basic assertions.

While it's a crummy strategy, a scum's major goal during the day time is to throw confusion into the face of the pro-towners. While he is being crappy at it, this is what DS is doing.

This is not true. A scum's major goal is to win. He wins by getting pro-towners lynched and avoiding being lynched himself. Creating confusion may help with that goal, but it's not the scums goal. The scum would much rather have a town that was clear, precise, and wrong, than a confused town that was heading in the right direction. As such, DS' posts are not helpful from a scum perspective, as they do not help him do either. You could try and argue that by being so weird he's hoping people will rush to his defence, but that makes no sense as if he hadn't made the posts he wouldn't need to be defended.

Now, the second assertion I contend is

So TSN is merely pointing out that maybe we should keep an eye on him

I don't think this is true. Here is TSN's post:

I'm not sure what to do about DS. Ignore him? Lynch him? I can't get any kind of an actual read on him, and maybe that's the point. If so, I sort of want to lynch him on principle.

Here is what he says here:
1) He doesn't know what to do about DS, whether he should be ignored or lynched
2)He can't get any read on DS
3)Maybe DS is deliberately trying to stop us getting a read on him
4)If that's the case, he maybe should be lynched on principle

Nowhere is there a call for him to be watched. There's a vague call for a lynch and an admittance that he can't read DS play. What's more worrying is there's an underhand sounding out of the town's opinion. If town agree that DS is scummy, it won't look strange if TSN attacks him later. If town decide that DS is probably town, then TSN doesn't need to follow through. It's a classic on the fence sort of post, and nowhere does it mention keeping an eye on DS or seeing how things develop or anything of that vein.

The final assertion I would like to contest is this one:

I don't like how definate your being, with not that much bearing to be definite on

This statement assumes that a) I was being definite and b) being definite is sucmmy. The first is true, the second is not. Think to yourself. What reasons could scum have for being definite? Perhaps they want to inflate a weak case. Go wild, I'm sure there are many reasons a scum would do it that could be thought up. But there are consequences too. If you are definite about something, you can't then pull out later. This causes problems for scum, as one of scum's goals is to lynch townies. Flexibility in the lynch choice is much more useful for scum, especially early in the day. Hence my dislike of TSN's post.
Now, what reasons could town have to be definite? Well, for one thing it gives more interesting reactions. People react to statements like "X is scum" more than they react to statements like "X seems scummy to me" - your own post is a case in point. Especially early in the day, these sort of statements can open up discussion, such as this one. To be sure, my certainty is an overstatement - I can't be certain that TSN is scum. But that doesn't matter. If you beat about the bush forever, people get bored, lose interest. Better to be definite.

In the end, it tends to be a playstyle thing. Some very good players are always definite, others leave room for doubt. One thing it isn't is a scumtell (at least, for most people. If it's out of the ordinary for someone, that may be different.)

Now, finally, there may be some merit to this:

You don't wanna lynch DS, because he's way too much the easy way out.

It's true, scum or town, I would not jump on the DS wagon. That's more to do with how crap it is rather than how easy it is, though. There may also be some merit to this:

You can paint TSN with just enough scumminess to cover your own tail

Sure, scum want to attack scummy people. The idea that I'm trying to cover my own tail, though, is somewhat... laboured, and I'd be interested to see how you reached that conclusion. Is it merely that you disagree with my attack on TSN? If it is, that's kinda crap. Disagreeing with someone =/= them being scum. Hence why I'm not voting for you.

[Shanba]

Actually...

skitzer, are you or are you not in favour of a DS lynch?

[Shanba]

:\

I dislike that post. And yet, I get kinda hard to explain god vibes.

[Shanba]

fair enough. Your just as entitled to your opinions as I am, and I feel like debating isn't gonna help either of us change our minds. Haha I'll start sweating if you inadvertatly started an RW bandwagon, but for now...well, fair enough.

Blaaah...

scummy vibes.

[Shanba]

You unvoted me. Explain the OMGUS again? Also, I'm not sue what's caused the vibes, hence them being vibes. I think it's the definite conciliatory tone in your statement.

[Shanba]

Eh.

I still like a Ninjalynch

[Shanba]

Deadline are an awesome time to stop posting.

[Shanba]

Daykill: Rosswilliam

(I am in fact kidding)

[Shanba]

I'd give jdodge a few days. He'll probably get round to posting soon.

Welcome to the game, killa seven. Are you scum?

[Shanba]

unvote, vote: RossWilliam

ESP or bandwagoning, Jdodge?

neko: thanks for replacing in. Killa seven: have you read the thread yet?

Not feeling the RW bandwagon atm. He reads more new than scum.

[Shanba]

This game is seriously painful.

I'm not a big fan of the RW bandwagon so I'm jumping on klebian.

vote klebian

There's scum on that there wagon.

Why klebian?

If you're trying to start a rival wagon, why not vote someone who had a vote, rather than someone who no one had even reallly mentioned?

[Shanba]

Korlash is simply annoyed that I already found his partner, and is running damage control to try and make sure I go down too.

Discuss.

[Shanba]

Korlash: that post was just slightly tongue in cheek

The point is not to give a player a free pass based on metas. The point is to try and work out what, for him, is a scummy action. Claiming doc is not, because it's just him being thick.

[Shanba]

@korlash: I meant my own post, not yours.

Claiming doc doesn't make you an easy lynch target, but claiming it and then retracting it obviously does.

[Shanba]

I'm obviously not the doctor. Jeez. You can never be sure, though.

[Shanba]

Then why is he still alive? And none of this replacement crap, he shoulda een lynched pages ago....

Do you want my honest opinion?

I would be extremely surprised if he was scum.

[Shanba]

Why are you keeping an eye on Korlash?

[Shanba]

/me sighs.

kleb: which player do you suspect most at the moment? What do you make of Korlashes posts?

[Shanba]

I'm asking klebian about Korlash because klebian had been commenting on most things but disappeared before Korlash's posts. As such, I'm interested in his opinion on them.

[Shanba]

And what do you want to know about my posts exactly?

If Klebian has a different perspective on them to everyone else? Hell, egtting players opinions on other players is interesting just to force them to commit.

[Shanba]

unvote, vote: nolynch

right now, I don't know who is scummy. But I also think, though it sounds selfish, that lynching me right now would be a mislynch. You don't have enough on me to lynch me yet. I'd appreciate it if some people voted nolynch with me, or even if the people on me unvoted. it would be a shame for the town for me to die without more evidence.

PS: there is no more evidence to be had, so we're all good ;)

Newbie move. For the town, a lynch is better than a random lynch, unless it's on a confirmed townie, which you would hope it never is, as there's a chance that a random lynch will hit scum whereas a no lynch simply cannot.

[Shanba]

Yeah, the no-lynch vote is either a brilliant scum gambit, or a genuine newbie mistake.

Unvote, vote melodyman23.

I don't particularly like the "jump on the bandwagon, get told it was bad, and jump right back off" play.

Do you think it was a scummy play or a newbie play from melodyman? Why does the no-lynch vote have to be a

brilliant

scum gambit?

[Shanba]

that was a pretty stupid example... You can't boil a lynch down to one person plus that excuse isn't even plausable in a lynch situation.

But thats about the same reson I hate the attack "opprotunism" becuase it too becomes a moot point.

Not really.

Hypothetical situation: Player x is being bandwagoned. Player y votes 5th on the bandwagon and begins to tunnel in on him. The bandwagon dies down, despite y. Plyer z gets wagoned. Suddenly, player x starts tunneling on player z.

That's opportunism.

[Shanba]

Meh.

Unvote vote: melodyman23

[Shanba]

I don't dislike this wagon as I really would like more input from Melody, however I think Shanba needs to put in something as well.

Because I've contributed little of interest this game?

[Shanba]

I assume shanba will provide some reasoning for that vote at some point. If not, I'll be extremely disappointed. I assume you're well aware that this exactly what I was talking about just a few posts ago.

I'm acutely aware, but I'm trying to demonstrate a point, as well as a few other things...

It was also Shan. So between the two of them they both did the same thing. SO an FoS to both for being unhelpful, and then a greater FoS For shans constant agressiveness toward TSN. I think your reaching a bit here. Razz

Why is aggressive play a scum tell?

Unvote, Vote: The sweatpantsninja

I had forgotten melodyman replaced ds.

[Shanba]

In fairness, phate started with the meta business.

I had forgotten melodyman replaced ds.

So I have a vendetta against DS? I thought I was distancing from him earlier.

You what?

[Shanba]

No, that was never the case... nor did I think that you had a vendetta against him. What gave you that impression?

[Shanba]

You said you had forgotten melodyman had replaced ds, and then voted me, I assumed you voted for me because melodyman had replaced ds.

No, I unvoted melodyman because he was DS's replacement.

[Shanba]

see if you can engage him an argument. That's usually the best way to get a read on a lurker, I find.

[Shanba]

Shanba, were you happy with your vote at deadline?

Well, yes. Plurality lynches, so there was no pressing need to move to a compromise wagon, as a lynch was guaranteed anyway. Maybe I might have voted JD to save DS, but that's far from certain, even to me, so moot point.

[Shanba]

TSN, what makes you think a late quick bandwagon is likely to be on a scum and not scum driven?

[Shanba]

So your theory is that a faction of townies, revolted by the heinous lynchwagons set forth by the unholy scum, broke free of the repression and founded a new wagon in daylight on scum?

[Shanba]

@Crub:

First, please not the interaction you dislike. Then, consider Jdodge as a possible third scum partner - if I were looking for me/x links I think that's one I would pursue. I think there might be a few others, too. Then drop the whole ridiculous notion and think again.

There are times when everyone disagrees with you, but you are right anyway. That's where MoS' title comes from, for example. But there are also times, and these are much more common, when everyone disagrees with you

because you are wrong

. Please consider whether this might be the latter.

Oh, and while you're at it, I'd like you to explain fully, in detail, about why kleb's reaction feels off.

[Shanba]

Crub - your suspicions of kleb are spread thinly (like, super thin. We're talking anorexic here) and in any case are badly explained (there's scum on the RW wagon? Why is klebian that scum?) If you tried to be clear, I'm sorry, but you've failed.

[Shanba]

I've got a two post reason to think he's possibly linked with Shanba, but it's not strong so I'm not posting it. Also a possible link with TSN (which is a higher possibility IMO), but I'm not elaborating until I see more.

You've been name dropping a possible link between me and klebian for a while now. I don't care how strong it is - now you've mentioned it, it has no more value as information to keep to yourself anyway (if I were scum with him, I would already know that I had to avoid further links of any kind). As such, I want you to explain now so the issue doesn't fester. Moreover, such a discussion will help me get a better read on your alignment.

You know that I meant why is my bandwagon significant. Stop dancing around the issue.

To be fair, I read it the same way Crub did.

[Shanba]

No, I was inactive sitewide. I'm very cross I missed this...

Vote: Thesweatpantsninja

[Shanba]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

I don't believe you looked very hard then. his actions on the Crub wagon only reinforced my belief.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

No. It was not deliberate, but I found myself avoiding mafiascum. You can check general discussion - I made a thread about how I was bored of mafia, and I hadn't posted anywhere in a while I was replaced in two games and modkilled in another for inactivity.

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

Are you leaning towards me or Killa seven then?

[Shanba]

Shanba, i was looking back at your most recent posts in which your attention was turned more toward Crub. I guess what I'm really asking is if your vote pertains mostly to your previous concerns of TSN, or is there anything new that bothers you about him.

I could be wrong, given I'm not checking my posts before I write this, but I'm fairly sure I was just digging at Crub for info. Also: "his actions on the Crub wagon only reinforced my belief." (apologies for capitalisation).

Although...

Unvote: Thesweatpantsninja

.

Page 24 in isolation is what I was referring to specifically. He votes somewhat out of the blue, but just after another vote - waiting for authority/support for a switch. I still think it's somewhat scummy, after reading only TSN's posts in isolation, but not as scummy - he's been building up to it. The reason I'm unvoting, though, is he did seem remarkably patient with Crub for a scum looking for an opportunity to jump on.

[Shanba]

Shanba, I'm not sure I'd call TSN's actions patient. He was voting JDodge following the events of D1, then JDodge votes Crub and TSN follows suit, keeping his vote there for the remainder of the day. I don't see any reason to think it wouldn't be possible for him to be scum looking for an easy switch to a more popular wagon.
If you don't think TSN is scum, though, who would be your next suspect?

Apparently, just about everyone. Crub, could you be more specific as to what you didn't like?

I'd just like to know what it is that I will either agree or disagree with.

EBWOP: Because right now, I disagree. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

If you disagree, fair enough, if you think that makes me scum, please explain.

There's certainly a middle ground in which I would prefer to get a reason why to agree. I don't see why you would not want to give a reason. I don't see why it makes you particularly scummy, as I can't really fathom why scum would not want to give reasons either.

I have to say, if someone accused me, and refused to give any reasons, I'd probably get a little OMGUSy myself. I don't think its particularly

scummy

not to, if only because I can't figure out any particular reason why scum would be any more likely to pursue the play than town, but its certainly not very helpful.

So, in other words:
Crub: kleb is scum.

Town: Why?

Crub: Because I say he is.

Me: No, for serious, why?

Crub: What, you don't agree with my stunning logic? You

and

kleb are scum.

This is how long it takes TSpN to finally turn around on Crub. He gives him an awful lot fo time to respond, and I don't blame him for his vote. That said, I'm not so comfortable with his latest vote on Killa seven. (why must I now begin to doubt/who never doubted all these years)

This type of meta, while I realize is pretty valid, is one of my pet peeves. I realize that he probably does little analysis in most games from what everyone, including you, is saying. But I don't like letting someone live for doing nothing because he does nothing every game. But let me look at some other people right now.

To my mind, you simply cannot sacrifice single game concerns (i.e. whether it makes him likely to be scum) for metagame concerns (whether punishing him for playing badly will make him a better player overall), simply because that would eventually harm the metagame even more.

neko - I'm slightly uncomfortable about you right now, because I don't entirely see how you can have such different interpretations of the game events to me on the issues we've discussed. Perhaps you could create a timeline to show how you felt tsn was not patient? If it's simply because you were reading quickly, that's fine, you may well note that I am also guilty of that.

Killa seven - who is scum?

Skitzer's latest posts have incited me to look over his play this game.

Shanba: I think that a DS lynch is not a good idea, as I aforementioned, he is quite hard to read, and although the sanity of this game would be increased with him gone, the well-being may be severely detrimented because we have no hard evidence on him except for his blatant posts.

TheSweatpantsNinja was likely trying to lynch DS for easier gameplay. I can see both sides of this argument.

FomS: Shanba
FomS: TheSweatpantsNinja

I wasn't really the other side of the argument - the other side of the argument was lynching Disciple Slayer. As such, his FomS of me rather than DS is slightly strange. Excusable, though, as he had documented suspicion on DS earlier. It annoys me slightly that he backed down so quickly after I laid out my reasons for thinking DS was town, but that could also be a sign of a good townie. (My heart is stone and still it trembles/The world I have known is lost in shadow).

Skitzer asks for a prod on dramamoose then doesn't post for 20 days. Hypocritical. Luckily for him, hyposcrisy is not a scumtell, just an *annoyance* tell. Bad sktizer!

Man, this day's gone on too long.

I'm getting desperate to get someone lynched.

The post that really sets me off wrong about rw is:

to all the people who are voting for me, i think it says something to my innocence that I'm still here posting and defending myself when it would be so gosh-darn easy for to slip into lurking and let the whole thing blow other.

Bolded makes me somewhat suspicious of TSN. Although TSN quoted a very suspicious post by RW too.

Not very big leads, but suspicions all the same.

Hmm. A pattern of behaviour seems to be developing - he takes two suspects, says both are a little suspicious, then dismisses his own suspicions as minor.

OK, I'm sorry for not posting, but I feel by looking back at games, I don't really do much on Day 1, I feel like I need a whole day cycle to look.

I can clearly see why people are voting for MelodyMan, and he is my biggest suspicion, but I don't want to put him at L-2 just yet. They may have been newb mistakes.

I don't see much of a point on RossWilliam.

I'm sorry I'm not much of a contributer.

Ouchy. Taken with the last post quoted, 11 days but only two posts before, this one sets off my scumdar. Now he's gone back to MelodyMan (replaced Disciple Slayer) and says he can't see anything against rosswilliam. Especially given that this was at a time when MelodyMan was close to being lynched. I'd be *more* comfortable with this if he had voted here - it looks like he's either a) trying to keep his hands clean by pushing the wagon from a distance or b) trying to create a paper trail for when he does eventually vote him. The fact that he dismisses his own suspicions *again* make me think it's more likely a, but I guess I'll see in a few posts time. Yes, I know it's a false dilemma - however, these, to me, seem to be the most likely reasons for this post. (Is he from heaven or from hell/And does he know)

- to avoid unnecessary length, it looks like he did vote melodyman after all.

Day 2 he is absolutely useless. He says he sees mistakes (note, mistakes, not scummy play) from killa 7, but doesn't think it needs a vote, he pokes koralsh in the most halfhearted way imaginable, pokes neko even more halfheartedly and then disappears.

Day 3 he starts with an analysis of TSN and k7. He maybe accuses TSN of being a lurker (intention here is unclear?) and accuses him of having voted Crub. I have to admit, I am less than blown away. As for his killa seven case... it basically amounts to him accusing killa seven of being

scumhunting more than normal,

which is possibly the most ridiculous accusation I've ever heard in my career on mafiascum, and was the reason I made this analysis.

Conclusion: He has been remarkably wishy-washy, shown traces of opportunism and semi-lurked, posting about once a week pretty much the entire game. The posts he has made have been lacking in content, and he has often hedged his bets. I would say he is quite likely scum. (And does he know/That granting me my life today/This man has killed me/Even so.)

I'm aware that the bit about him lurking is somewhat hypocritical, btw.

[Shanba]

speaking of which, Shanba forgot to vote...

Vote: skitzer

[Shanba]

Hmm.

I had another look at the posts in context, and TSN makes that post after Crub had given a case on kleb, which is slightly odd timing. It doesn't look so much opportunistic to me though as it does OMGUSsy.

Tangled webs indeed. I don't think he was building a case against Crub - the impression I got was that he was pressuring Crub and then voted him when he got fed up about not having his questions answered.

neko, what do you believe made Crub particularly scummy?

[Shanba]

Geez, that took a while. How do you guys keep track of everything? I mean, do you keep a notebook by the comp and take notes? And while I read the abbreviation guide, and know what OMGUS means, how is it used? And what are bussing and meta?

Some people take notes. In my first few games I took notes, but it didn't really work for me, so I use them infrequently now. It's easier to keep up with the game as it flows, rather than replacing in and reading a static thread. It's mostly a trick of sorting out salient information amongst the ocean of posts. Eventually, as you notice enough scummy posts you can build up a picture of the game and say "x is scummy".

Meta is metagame, or facts from outside the game. Metagame could involve, for example, knowing that x is passive as scum, and applying that to the game. Some forms of metagame are more highly regarded than others. See the article on the ms wiki.

Bussing is a scum intentionally attacking his partner in order to look more like town.

I'm gonna go with my predecessor's vote on D2, and [b\] vote: killa seven [/b]. If that didn't come through bolded, could someone let me know how to fix it?

You need to write

Code: Select all

[b]Vote: killa seven[/b]

[Shanba]

jtdyer, are you voting k7 just because RW was voting him?


Korlash,

If you want to say I'm intentionally lurking in this one, then you also have to call me out on my lukng n two other large games, 2 different HM games, and that MTG tourney we ave going on in this place.

I don't know about the others, but I am not in those games. This post seems pretty irrelevant.

Not exactly irrelevant - if it's happening in all his games, then obviously it isn't a tell on his alignment.

[Shanba]

Jdtyer -

I want your thoughts on neko and an explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

[Shanba]

Jdtyer -

I want your thoughts on neko and an explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

There was something about Neko that made me a little suspicious, but I can't recall what or where it was. Its tough to jump in during day 3, read the posts, and keep track of where stuff was that caught my attention.

Shanba, I'm curious why you would want my thoughts on Neko, since I'm so new to this game, and the game in general?

I need to have some content from you in order to get a rad on your alignment. Neko is a player I was having difieculty reading, and I wanted, therefore, a fresh perspective. I felt it would be helpful to have you try and quantify some sort of position on a player.

[Shanba]

I could see a klebian lynch today.

[Shanba]

Hey Eldritch Lord.

Please give your thoughts on TSN

[Shanba]

Now why do you think I would use such a bizarre ploy to set up a new wagon when I could very easily do so without any outside intervention?

[Shanba]

Brilliant mafia ploy?

Shanba (as scum): Hey, person, why don't you look over x?

Person: Good idea. Well, I think x is scummy.

Shanba: I agree. [/b]Vote: X[/b]

Do you not think this would be slightly obvious?

Moreover, I have not been coasting. I very distinctly remember laying out a case on skitzer just the other day. Unless you mean coasting by without suspicion? That's because people trust me, that's not a scumtell. In fact, that almost sounds like the "too townie" fallacy.

[Shanba]

I quite like kleb's last post on TSN.

Apologies, I'm in a rush, I'm on limited access for a while.

[Shanba]

I'm really sorry for disappearing on you guys, especially the mods. I'm pleased with how I scumhunted this game, but I'm annoyed with myself for lurking so much. Scum played decently well, I'm not sure whether they deserved the win as I haven't read since I was replaced.