Sure isIn post 1149, RachMarie wrote:umm Trans if that is the game I am thinking of its because you did a great job of pulling the wool over my eyes and the eyes of a few others and got me to vote titus
NY 198: Nexus is Now a New Normal Mafia (Game Over)
-
-
Transcend Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 26013
- Joined: February 12, 2016
-
-
drealmerz7 Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 15374
- Joined: February 9, 2016
- Location: earth
-
-
mhsmith0 Balancing Act
- Balancing Act
- Balancing Act
- Posts: 10830
- Joined: March 7, 2016
- Location: Phoenix, AZ
Town DEFINITELY didn't win just due to setup here.
That said, I tend to agree setup was town-sided. The comment was made that town get on extra ML in exchange for scum getting power.
But consider the 10v3 version of this:
Neapolitan
Deputy (backup neo?)
Shitty JOAT
Doctor
Even rb
Macho ic
4 vt
Vs
Goon
Goon
Encryptor
That's a majority of town roles being pr and none were trash roles like neighbor, bodyguard, 1-shot anything (other than bp) or miller.
Normally towns get wrecked in "5 town pr" 10v3 games, but from what I can tell, it's because town gets shitty powers and/or scum get way too much power in exchange. Neither really was the case here.
That said, if the deputy was a VT instead, and scum turned a goon into say a 1-shot strongman, it's probably pretty close to balanced.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
-
Pine In Your Head
- In Your Head
- In Your Head
- Posts: 16763
- Joined: February 27, 2011
- Location: Upstate New York
Deputy was a VT. Mod says that it was intended to throw off Town, there was no Cop. Couldn't replace Neapolitan. You're also not considering the Mafia Stalker, which is actually a fairly powerful scum role.
The problem here was that with a large number of investigative roles (Neapolitan, 3-shot investigative JOAT*, and Macho Innocent Child, which is essentially a self-investigator) mixed with other Town powers. Neapolitan, a more traditional JOAT, and a standard Doctor would have been plenty. The extra roles were overkill, especially when balanced against a single scum PR and a scumteam sized for a Mini.
I would consider Neapolitan, standard JOAT, Doctor, 6x VT vs 2 Goon, Encryptor, Stalker to be balanced.
*3-shot anything is practically a full role, so long as those powers are complimentary. Traditional JOATs have three different powers, like 1-shot Cop, 1-shot Doc, 1-shot roleblock.
As I've said before, all this setup grouching was irrelevant. The only real PR that made any difference was rb's JOAT, and one PR solving a game is simply a phenomenon, not something that can be predicted."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
-
rb Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 12029
- Joined: June 13, 2016
- Location: sp00ky
-
-
Shadow_step Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: May 12, 2016
- Location: 221B, Baker Street
- Happy Scumday!
was a flukeIn post 1085, RachMarie wrote:I do know they thought the original setup was too scum sided but I think it ended up being rather town sided, though to be fair rb knocked it totally out of the ball park managing to successfully target both scum that he did. That is very unusual and should be noted.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
-
Shadow_step Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: May 12, 2016
- Location: 221B, Baker Street
- Happy Scumday!
Like I said game was broken by day 1 mass claim, total BS town sided setup.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
-
Shadow_step Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: May 12, 2016
- Location: 221B, Baker Street
- Happy Scumday!
LmfaoIn post 1134, mykonian wrote:This one, if I take an educated guess was at best balancedShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
-
GuyInFreezer Magical Girl
- Magical Girl
- Magical Girl
- Posts: 18127
- Joined: January 23, 2013
- Location: In your wall
Let's see.In post 1156, Shadow_step wrote:Like I said game was broken by day 1 mass claim, total BS town sided setup.
Even night RB? Sounds like a scum role to me.
Deputy? No cop claimed, could be lying.
Neapolitan? Could be a scum role. I certainly used it as a scum role last game even though it got lynched D1 iirc.
JoaT? The role could be scum, doesn't confirm anything.Show"I used to think you had this elegant-trolly, minimalist playstyle. Then I realized the playstyle is ~Lazy~
The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt
"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae-
-
Shadow_step Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: May 12, 2016
- Location: 221B, Baker Street
- Happy Scumday!
It tells Neapolitan who not to target, find out lying people cause all scum cannot claim to have a PR. It will lead to very easy POE.
Doc can protect investigatives forever, scum cannot do anything about it.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
-
Transcend Survivor
-
-
GuyInFreezer Magical Girl
- Magical Girl
- Magical Girl
- Posts: 18127
- Joined: January 23, 2013
- Location: In your wall
Kill the doc first?In post 1159, Shadow_step wrote:Doc can protect investigatives forever, scum cannot do anything about it.Show"I used to think you had this elegant-trolly, minimalist playstyle. Then I realized the playstyle is ~Lazy~
The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt
"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae-
-
Shadow_step Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: May 12, 2016
- Location: 221B, Baker Street
- Happy Scumday!
Plus they had an extra lynch, rolecop is scummy claim. If Dave claims tracker there is reasonable CC potential from the JOAT.ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
-
GuyInFreezer Magical Girl
- Magical Girl
- Magical Girl
- Posts: 18127
- Joined: January 23, 2013
- Location: In your wall
Rolecop is p null claim these days actually.Show"I used to think you had this elegant-trolly, minimalist playstyle. Then I realized the playstyle is ~Lazy~
The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt
"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae-
-
Shadow_step Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: May 12, 2016
- Location: 221B, Baker Street
- Happy Scumday!
Can you release the review PT please or ask Nexus to do it?ShowThe shadows betray you, because they serve me.
"Chrim and Shadow_step town MVPs. There was a point at the game I was legitimately in fear." ~Zach
"I'm mightily impressed by Shadow's ability to find town PR's, by the way. He was the one directing the first two nightkills." ~Michel-
-
Zulfy Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3899
- Joined: October 3, 2015
-
-
Nexus HemissHe
- miss
- miss
- Posts: 6650
- Joined: July 1, 2010
- Pronoun: He
- Location: UK Hun
-
-
mhsmith0 Balancing Act
- Balancing Act
- Balancing Act
- Posts: 10830
- Joined: March 7, 2016
- Location: Phoenix, AZ
It's actually an interesting exercise to imagine a d1 mass claim here. Scum don't really have the ability to tear through the PRs, which means that they'd basically need to WIFOM up some tinfoil on the town PR claims to win. Barring that, you basically have:
N1 scum kills doctor who protects neapolitan who hard-clears or condemns a VT claim
N2 scum kills neapolitan, while the RB and JOAT both have a chance to catch someone making the kill
N3 RB or JOAT gets killed
N4 RB or JOAT gets killed
So given a D1 mass claim (presuming scum all claim VT), you have six declared town PRs AND a N1 hard clear from the neapolitan (or an easy guilty for D2), all in an environment in which scum need to achieve five mislynches in order to win (barring double NK stoppage which while unlikely isn't impossible). So either scum manage to get all five non-cleared VT's (presuming N1 clear from neapolitan) mislynched OR they mislynch 1+ town PR claims. That's an extremely difficult road to hoe. As long as town doesn't mislynch a town PR, all they need to do is behaviorally clear at least one of the VT claims and scum can't win given D1 mass claim.
Or, given lack of D1 mass claim, you get a potentially even harder road for scum, because scum might shoot a VT on N1 or N2 OR scum might get stopped from killing twice (doctor plus even night RB is unlikely to stop two kills but it's not impossible), AND you have neapolitan that can easily clear or condemn a VT claim on N1/N2 unless scum get pretty lucky with an early shot (and if neapolitan claims and gets doc-protected N1, then scum is in even more trouble).
I'm not going to say it's totally unwinnable for scum, but I feel like town is going to win this setup like 80% of the time. Too many different ways that things can go right for town, and too few easy ways for scum to lead town astray or really counter town's power (the stalker clearly helps, but it's not really enough). I'd think that scum success would be HIGHLY dependent on eventually mislynching the deputy claim (and mislynching a declared PR is always tough), AND successfully shooting a PR every single night, and even there town has a lot of ways that they can make the game go well.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
-
mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
- Frisian Shoulder-Demon
- Frisian Shoulder-Demon
- Posts: 11963
- Joined: August 27, 2008
How do people know the claims are true?
Why don't scum fakeclaim?
idk this is not what "broken by massclaim", means, claims aren't hard inno's, nor are the majority of these roles confirmable or even then confirmed town. The majority of the roles don't provide such a big benefit that they have to be shot asap, p much the doc, to some extent the IC, maybe the neapolitan but you can play around that one.
Just because RB wrecked scum doesn't mean town suddenly win this game in 80% of the cases. The only place that has had setups that come close to such numbers has been the large theme queue, a little while ago, and that was for scum. MS doesn't make games that town wins to such an extent.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
-
mhsmith0 Balancing Act
- Balancing Act
- Balancing Act
- Posts: 10830
- Joined: March 7, 2016
- Location: Phoenix, AZ
In terms of D1 mass claim, the concept I'd generally work from is "town PRs claim true, and scum all claim VT". In this specific setup, the stalker should in fact claim tracker, although depending on mass claim order that might well not be known ahead of time (i.e for all they know there is a town tracker or watcher, and then they're kinda screwed with that claim, if not immediately than at least eventually). I don't know why the other scum would necessarily claim some kind of town PR, but if they do (especially if they have to claim relatively early), there's substantial risk of CC'ing or having their claim stick out as being unlikely. And, of course, at some point they'll have to actually DO something with their claimed power (or claim to), and then they have to justify what they've done each night and why. A game-long accountability regimen for night actions is tough on the wolves if they've claimed PR's (a lack of an actual town tracker does help a bit, though the roleblocker could easily be used as a PR verification device).
Generally speaking, I think it's appropriate for there to be a legitimately reasonable path for scum team to win if they all claim VT on a D1 mass claim, and in this game I don't think that such a reasonable path really exists. A D1 mass claim is brutal on the wolves (though town wouldn't know it ahead of time), AND the numbers are really tough on the wolves (again, town doesn't know this).
Also just eyeballing single ball setups of around this size:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=37208
Spoiler: single ball, around 17p
I go through that list, and I don't really see any setups that are especially comparable to:
12v3
town has macho IC, neapolitan, even roleblocker, doctor, JOAT, deputy
scum has stalker, encryptor, goon
You pretty consistently see one or more of:
1) Better numbers for scum (167, 174, 192, 193)
2) Better powers for scum (176, 183, 189, 196)
3) Worse powers for town (169, 170, 176, 183, 192, 193)
I could maybe see 172 as comparable, but even there town powers are weaker since there's only four PRs instead of six, and on a larger board.
Probably the best comparison is 179, and town won that with some room to spare (both masons survived and won, though it went to F5). 196 probably comparable too, and that required a day 2 lynch of a doc claim, and for the vig to shoot the cop N4, and a fairly ridiculous run of consecutive mislynches by A50 as the last wolf in order to somehow eke out a win (I'd say more but I only kinda skimmed that game so I don't really remember it in much detail).Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
-
Pine In Your Head
- In Your Head
- In Your Head
- Posts: 16763
- Joined: February 27, 2011
- Location: Upstate New York
-
-
Nexus HemissHe
- miss
- miss
- Posts: 6650
- Joined: July 1, 2010
- Pronoun: He
- Location: UK Hun
To nominate this game and any players or mods in it, please see the Scummies nomination thread.Trans rights are human rights.
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.