Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[ThinkBig]

All what I said is that if you flip scum, I want to look at him. Never said he was definitely scum.

[mastina]

Alisae is at L-2!

Twenty-fifth Votecount

:

(Third Votecount D2)

Alisae - 4 (PranaDevil, ThinkBig, All Alone, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)

ThinkBig - 1 (Alisae)

LicketyQuickety - 1 (Garmr)

Not Voting - 5 (shannon, BlueBloodedToffee, LicketyQuickety, Pepchoninga, Lexa)

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Alisae is at L-2!

Day 2's deadline is Monday, February 20th, @ 3:30 PM PST--(expired on 2017-02-20 15:30:00).

V/LA Notices/Mod Notes:

• mastina, the moderator, is V/LA over weekends.
  
• ThinkBig is V/LA through Monday, February 6th.

[Alisae]

All what I said is that if you flip scum, I want to look at him. Never said he was definitely scum.

And what if I flip town?

[Garmr]

Reason?

That being said

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Real vote time.

This vote feel opportunistic to me. It' hasn't got real reasoning and I feel like it's on someone he thinks will end up being a wagon.

VOTE: karnos

I don't think It's scummy to have flawed reasoning like Lickety had. Town can be Flawed as well.

Seems like you tried to guess the reasoning, and then assumed I had none afterward. Weird.

If LQ is scum, you are the partner jumping to derail the lynch.

I wasn't scum reading him based on his logic, it was his defensiveness and over-explaining himself that pinged me.

Also, isn't an opportunistic vote usually characterized as jumping on a growing wagon?

Karnos seems to be amateur at being scum. Here you can see him trying link LQ to me. Then latter on he drops the lq read and focus me and jordan both town and made some bullshit excuse to jump off the wagon.

Spoiler: everything I mentioned LQ in

VOTE: karnos

Most bullshit defence ever. This is the few kinds of defence I feel warrants a lynch even more than something like what LQ did.

I'd rather push a karnos wagon

Why I voted karnos. His bad play struck as scum, while I mentioned LQ's play is not with lynching.

Because I feel disgusted at a flawed accusation

Why I interjected. Never have I been told or seen interjection g as being AI.

And another contradiction: you don't say someone is obvious scum and say it's not a solid read

Following up my destruction of his trash case.

I asked for reasons knowing not to take them seriously as well. Does that make me scum?
How do you know they were going to take the reasons seriously?
And why can't they ask for reasons if they are town?
What makes you think they are attempting to push the game forward.
How do you know you aren't taking their post the wrong way?

1) That isn't all you did though.
2) Can you tell me they were not going to? Why would you think that? I see more reason to believe they would than they wouldn't; its the simplest explanation, Occam's Razor.
3) They can, but tbh it looks like a really weird place to ask that. Again, that is all shannon has done. Its a really simple question to ask. The trick is finding out if it is out of place or not and I think it is.
4) I think its a fake way to

look

like you are trying to push the game forward.
5) I could be. Its not a solid read at all. It is, however, an actual starting point out of RVS.

1) that's all you accused him of
2) the onus is on you to explain they were
3) again, onus is on you to say that it's not town rather than just say it's out of place without explaining
4) That could be said of anything, invalid point.
5) then if it's not a solid read why didn't you solidify it or clarify? You just immediately threw the accusation without trying to look at it or pressuring her.

PEdit: clearly you need to go back to a Newbie game for people to take your analysis seriously.

I destroyed his case and threw back a comment at him about Newbieness in counter for HIS comment.

LQ definite town due to not paying enough attention to who's in the game to even direct a vote correctly? Sounds like a plan to me.

vote: Alisae

for reasons. (Hint, they aren't good reasons)

I'm being bullied and I would like to know the reasons ;~;

@Alisae what are the reasons?

Ugh sorry, that was a typing fail.

@PranaDevil - - reasons??

This is actually Scummy I think. There use to be a tell out there that Scum misspell stuff or don't say stuff correctly. I also find it Scummy that they are asking for reasons. Should be clear it is RVS and I don't buy that its an attempt to push the game forward so either they are not very good Town or obvious Scum.

VOTE: shannon

1. That's a bullshit scumtell.
2. Its protown to ask for reasons, would you like it if I voted you right now and called you scummy for asking me why?
3. If it's clear it's RVS to you then you should know that everything is said in a jovial manner until something happens.
4. I don't think you know what obvious scum means.

PEdit: ninjaed point 3

The original destroying of his post

As you can see, my posts mostly indicated how he played badly, over he played scummily.

Karnos in the other hand, I expressed a clear scumread on him, "Most Bullshit defence", "warrants a lynch", "rather push a karnos wagon" was what I said. Here, his play looked opportunistic, hence scummy, while LQ play is simply bad.

At the current moment, karnos not possibly being scumpartners with LQ leads to more reason not to scumread him, as I scumread karnos at the current moment. I'm remaining null instead of a townread, as this still has the small chance of being staged, e.g. LQ puts out the BS case for Karnos to vote and try to start a wagon for town red(I've seen it happen).

I would advise lynching karnos over LQ for above reasons.

Now with all the possible questions I can think of fended off, I am going to move on to other topics.

I TR Alisae for similar reasons to why he is universally TRed, however i would however prefer his vote to be in karnos.

Garmr and Shannon are Town for now, creating active discussion. If Shannon or Garmr was scum, I don't think scum wants to put in the extra effort of creating discussion points and noticing things that probably won't get lynched. However, this is one of the less solid tells, hence the For Now.

Again, everyone voting LQ I suggest swapping to karnos, thanks.

Blah, blah, I'm a horrible player who plays bad.

5) I could be. Its not a solid read at all. It is, however, an actual starting point out of RVS.

Bro, why don't you check out my wiki. I prolly have more wins than you have games played.

Watch lq attack jordan for voting karnos despite never actually town reading karnos.

VOTE: shannon

This vote doesn't count yet, consider this a note to self on who is obviously scum.

I remember you, do you remember me?

<<< I remember you,
You remember me,
We're one big fucked up family~ >>>

@Mod, LOL I was just about to say that Karnos is a null read because the game I played with them in I Scum read them hard core and they were Town and I was too.

Shit reasoning for defending karnos here plus he called jordan shit for scum reading karnos earlier despite lq only having a so called null read on karnos.

Also, for anyone who still thinks this asshole is town, just look at how he is willing to throw his logic in the toilet as soon as he is caught in a contradiction.

He isn't "just" being g aggresive. He's picking up on and pushing things that scum normally dont bother with.

I don't like cases of "scum would/wouldn't do this"
Anything can be shaken off like that.

This is not town thinking.

In 177 XnadrojX is perfectly happy to give Alisae a towny pass for doing stuff

scum wouldn't do

.

In 221 he suddenly took a 180, and is saying he doesn't like cases like "

scum wouldn't do

" something.

I'm still thinking we are smart enough to turn this around and wagon some scum, but if it comes down to a karnos lynch you must promise me you will lynch this asshole as soon as my alignment flips.

This is actually a pretty solid post.

<<< Deleted the double-post. >>>

The post wasn't solid at all I think he was just trying to make his team mate look better and possibly avoid the lynch.


Also lets not forget how he tries to stop alisae from town reading me someone who's apparently null. There is no town motive for what he did before. There is plenty of scum motive through.

His vote on AA was pretty shit. He pretty much described why AA would be null (personal play style)

So Shannon, you're saying that, from your point of view, Jordan's play was like throwing a punch at LQ but holding back so he doesn't get the blame for it?

It's worse. He is throwing shade on LQ, and then when someone (me) took his words seriously he turned around and accused me of being scum jumping on an opportunistic wagon (of course, it was a wagon of 0 at the time I voted).

Why do you say you took nadroj's words seriously here? You said you voted LQ for defensiveness and over-explaining rather than his logic, but as far as I can tell nadroj's "shade throwing" was only based on LQ's logic.

UNVOTE:

don't really want my vote anywhere right now tbh

Like the bolded here. Seriously what scum player would say this. It's like asking people to look at them.

My scumhunting tactics are really more reactive than proactive, to be honest.

And also, I

do

expect to be held accountable for my opinions, even when my opinion is that I have no scumreads. That's why I came in here and admitted as much.

Why would any scum even say that. Honestly if All alone was scum it would be easier just to place a vote earlier make some bullshit reason and lurk in the back ground and hope the active town will fight among themselves.

AA can get away with that shit as Scum for a few reasons:

1) they don't post frequently
2) the condition of the games state currently
3) personal playstyle

So while your arguments do kinda give me pause, you are still basically just giving a generic argument for why you Town read them which can basically be boiled down to "I don't think they would do that as Scum" which is pretty weak considering all that hinges on the wagon stuff you were talking about.

As an aside, I do kida have that same sorta intuitive kind of playstyle that you are using, but I realize its not "gut" that convinces people that you are right.

Conclusion: be more specific about why you don't think AA would do that as Scum.

If you look carefully he didn't display one reason why AA is scum just that he could get away with it as scum. Not why it made him scum.



Finally anyone who is competent enough at this game can connect the dots between him and karnos.

[Garmr]

Man it looks like I have to steer the town to voting obvious scum again today. I feel like town would lose with out me.

[Garmr]

Also my town read on alisae stay on from before nothing has changed it.

[Alisae]

Man it looks like I have to steer the town to voting obvious scum again today. I feel like town would lose with out me.

What makes you think town want to lynch me cuz I really do thing scum is voting me right now.

[Garmr]

Man it looks like I have to steer the town to voting obvious scum again today. I feel like town would lose with out me.

What makes you think town want to lynch me cuz I really do thing scum is voting me right now.

Everyone seems to be town reading LQ because they are gullible. From what I gather they think his articulate language and indepth sentences = town what you should be looking out for is motives and interactions and reasoning. A lot of what he says is hollow when it comes to gaining anything as town but it seems well explained enough that people will overlook it with out actually noticing the hollow nature of it.

That's what I mean by Leading town.

But if you want to know why people think your scummy it's because you appear inherently scummy no matter your alignment. People attribute your Quirkiness to scum behavior. So I can understand why some people may see you as scum. That being said there is a chance that one scum that has voted you and since I believe lq is the other scum that makes the majority of your wagon town (3 out 4 at the least)

[Lexa]

As promised, game review pre-jordan flip

Posts that I don't reference I either think are irrelevant to the game or full NAI, or I missed it

Spoiler: Game flow comments

Shannon gets a slight town-note due to karnos's vote in 22, retrospectively considering his flip the RVS vote would be less likely to be on a scumbuddy.

Alisae slight scum points for 28, pushing obvious sarcasm as a scumslip to create a wagon. All Alone shares the scum points for jumping on the wagon at 32.

LicketyQuickety's 80 is a bad post but with towny reasoning.

Jordan's 86 is super weird. Like, really really weird. I don't understand how he goes from being uninvolved with the conversation/quote wagon to attacking LQ as aggressively as he is, especially without putting down a vote. All of his wording here feels like it's designed to create pressure out of nothing given a lack of escalation beforehand, yet not putting a vote down suggests that it's not coming from a place of legitimate belief. Moderate scum points.

Garmr and LQ are unlikely scumbuddies

Given the flip, Jordan looks townier for this, that's a heavy bus to push that early in the game.

138 was a post I took notice of early game. Ime scum are less likely to bring in outside sources of hunting so shannon pointing out awkward phrasing reflects well on her. A second look does suggest that garmr's post is weirdly written, though hard to draw specific inferences from that other than a note to watch for other future posts.

shanon is so obv town it hurts. Support for scum!jordan

188Bussing a scumbuddy? Or misdirecting the wagon? Given previous thoughts Jordan looks good as town.

The irony of 199 with the earlier discussion about misspelling being a scum tell is amusing. NAI though.

shannon pls marry me

Jordan at 219 continuing to bus karnos, he's approaching lock town as karnos was the only major wagon at this point and bussing his so hard would be hugely irresponsible for scum imo. Really hard to see this as scum theatre.

<3 LQ for being open minded about WIFOM as a legit hunting tactic

Gin at 245 possible distancing from scum buddy? Note to investigate.

By 259 I'm not liking Pep's lurking. No content to this point and this post adds no new information while directing the game towards a relatively likely tvt interaction.

Note to self: lots of posts by gin, little contribution by 271.

PranaDevil's 279 is NAI for me but the depth of content reflects well on their interest level being one I would expect town to have. Very slight town points.

All Alone still looks like shit for 285

Note to self: would be lovely if I could get a read on Alisae, so many posts with so little to definitively grab onto

Liking LQs analysis in 327. Garmr has been giving me a weird vibe I can't put my finger on yet from his posts to this point so I appreicate LQ helping me not think I'm crazy.

My 337 placing a FoS on All Alone.

My 348 with mild suspicion on Gin. Rereading the thread I maintain the suspicion to this point, Gin has been acting very similarly to how I've seen experienced scum act on my home site per the actions laid out in that post.

Prana's 365 and shannon's 367 are both slight-towny

Really liking LQs explanations of his alternative ways of analyzing things as in 373

Gin is really bugging my weird strings. The whole stretch of posts leading up to 389 is so odd. I can see scum!Gin latching onto LQ as someone getting town read and attempting to link LQs credo to his own by suggesting they "town-jam" together. Without having pushed much in the way of town posts hismself I can't see where town!Gin makes that suggestion.

And then more theory speak over game speak at 394! All these small things have added up into a small scum lean on Gin.

Disagree with whoever said that AAs 399 was towny, his reasoning isn't good and countering with the expectation of being held to his votes is as basic as it gets. NAI.

And of course 400 is hilaribad

Really dislike BBTs 403. Mostly because this is the first post that I actually notice of theirs. 16 pages and all you have to contribute is that you've picked up town reads? Retrospectively this post has a strong scent of scum active lurking. Small scum lean.

And Prana is totally right for calling out AA and BBT at 410, though the post itself is NAI.

Alisae's 415 is interesting actually. On the surface I would have completely missed it because it aligns with my internal narrative against AA but taken on its own this could easily be Alisae either directing a mislynch or distancing from a scumbuddy. Slight scum points to Alisae.

asfghasfghg

Note to self: brain slowing down, careful with future reads.

Jesus how has pepchoninga gone unnoticed? 434 he says "this is my playing". He hasn't contributed anything and somehow isn't getting read or pressured!!! I have imagine

someone

on the scum team would have noticed and pushed him by now. Moderate scum points given here.

IN POST EDIT: Upgraded to major scum points, popped my head into his iso and holy fuck someone vote his ass.

Confirmed my read on the above, the posts leading up to 444 are such obvious attempts to bus the top wagon in karnos and gain town points. And then immediately flip flops at 451 giving karnos a softball set up to deflect pressure away from him. Pep is top scum read at this point.

SelfNote: ThinkBig subs in here

All NAI from thinkbig so far. TB can you tell me what WOTC means from here? I'm taking a wild guess that it's not wizards of the coast.

Dislike 474, easy way to set up scum theater if it goes unpunished. Probably less likely than the other possibilities so far though.

I disagree with LQ at 487 but his posts have increasingly solidified a town read.

AAs 514 reads towny, but it being purely a defense post means it could easily be scum defense as well. Still no contribution of content. Gin's 518 following up AAs 514 is both accurate and recements the FoS into a moderate scum read on AA.

shannon and Prana, still town af from 536/542

ThinkBig's 545 is a very curious moment. Calling L-1 when it was actually L-3 could easily be a simple error but I don't like the way it immediately halted the AA wagon.

Gin's 558 looks very towny on the surface, not something it seems like a lot fo players had considered. That being said, also very easy for a scum to use that theory to direct the "town finder" to a scum on the wagon. Confirms my previous read that Gin is being very surface town with potential scum motivations.

Alisae's 569 only makes sense if they town read AA or are scumbuddies with him.

I really like LQs defense of ThinkBig following the above post, in particular 600. I really appreciate his alternative methods and they seem very town oriented to me.

Garmr's reasoning in 627 is very towny, especially in light of the flip. Albeit I disagree with his conclusion but the logic required to get there is very good.

shannon is the best. 637 is (yet again) super super towny. No reason for scum!shannon to post those associations based on voting history and provides excellent future reference points. Interestingly, reinforces the idea that AA and Alisae could be scumbuddies from 569.

jordan and karnos concludes around 650 and on reinforces that jordan is probable town barring scum theater to distance jordan from karnos.

Prana at 719 pretty much locks them into town with shannon. So much town bleeding from this post.

All Alone's 752 through 758 continue to be pure reactionary response that could easily come from either alignment with a lack of added content that would suggest them as town. Maintain scum read.

Spoiler: ISO comments

Nope, life got in the way

Summary:

So-towny-it-hurts: {shannon, PranaDevil}
Moderate-town-lean: {LQ, jordan}
Null-town: {Garmr, ThinkBig}
Null-scum: {Alisae, Gin, BBT}
Moderate-scum-lead: {All Alone}
Lynch-them-already: {pepchoninga}

Alisae+AA possible scum team

[Lexa]

pls don't shoot 4 walls gin

[Alisae]

Alisae+AA possible scum team

This isn't in line with your "I want to lynch Pep today"

[Lexa]

Sure it is

[All Alone]

VOTE: LQ

[Alisae]

VOTE: LQ

[mastina]

Twenty-sixth Votecount

:

(Fourth Votecount D2)

Alisae - 3 (PranaDevil, ThinkBig, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)

LicketyQuickety - 3 (Garmr, All Alone, Alisae)

Not Voting - 5 (shannon, BlueBloodedToffee, LicketyQuickety, Pepchoninga, Lexa)

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Alisae is at L-3.
LicketyQuickety is at L-3.

Day 2's deadline is Monday, February 20th, @ 3:30 PM PST--(expired on 2017-02-20 15:30:00).

V/LA Notices/Mod Notes:

• mastina, the moderator, is V/LA over weekends.
  
• ThinkBig is V/LA through Monday, February 6th.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I now find that there is a large contradiction in LQ's play. (Thanks Gramr, I think I was buddied because I love theory talk )

Well in the theory talk that LQ was explaining to me, he found it very AI the way people posted and that's how he got a read on him. This game he linked was a town game of Karnos. If what LQ says is what he believes, that means he would think Karnos is in fact town but he sat at null. I don't think it was really that hard to understand you either voted for Karnos cuz he was scummy to you or he was town. I find it odd that he remained null for the longest of times...

Oh, and trying to derail a wagon on a person he didn't think was town :p I'll derail any town wagon I see, even at one vote (as I did with ThinkBig), but I actually sometimes vote my null reads (ask Alisae lmfao) because it helps me discover more about their alignment and how they handle the wagon.

Those voting Karnos, I want you to look at this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66922

P-Edit: Mastina notice me

<<< You're my favorite student.
...no, it doesn't matter that you're my ONLY student, my statement still stands as accurate anyway! >>>

[shannon]

@Lexa why are you giving Jordan a moderate town read; he flipped town overnight..

(Secretly I am glad that I am not the one with the reading fail this time)

Prana and Shannon seems to be the most agreed on townread based on what is going on.
ThinkBig is a strange mix of scummy posts and townie posts. Don't really know how to read that slot.

Alisae just announced he's scum, and likely with karnos. Bringing off a lot of the votes off karnos was Alisae.
The fact that the wagon just dissipated like that indicates scum, probably a scumbuddy tried to derail.

I dunno about AA, he hasn't made enough posts for me to properly get a read on him, leaning scum for now I think.
That thing from Lexa is NAI, can't blame inconvenient timing looking opportune imo. (Unless I'm too trusting of people which I doubt)
There still was no reason to vote BBT over karnos, karnos still stood as the scummier person.
Speaking of karnos, the claim was shit. I doubt he actually a Vengeful townie (unless Vengeful Mafia but I've never heard of it) it looked a lot like a self defence move to me.

This is the best you're gonna get out of me for the weekend.

Interesting.

I don't see why a townie would bring this shit up anyways.
How does this not look like scum preparing to get a lynch off me?

Either Alisae or TB is my pick for today, so far. Their back-and-forth looks to me like scum distancing instead of TvT, especially considering my read on Alisae. Jordan had both of them pegged for scummy behaviour, so a bit of mutual bussing is a good way to overcome that.

Man it looks like I have to steer the town to voting obvious scum again today. I feel like town would lose with out me.

What makes you think town want to lynch me cuz I really do thing scum is voting me right now.

Everyone seems to be town reading LQ because they are gullible. From what I gather they think his articulate language and indepth sentences = town what you should be looking out for is motives and interactions and reasoning. A lot of what he says is hollow when it comes to gaining anything as town but it seems well explained enough that people will overlook it with out actually noticing the hollow nature of it.

That's what I mean by Leading town.

But if you want to know why people think your scummy it's because you appear inherently scummy no matter your alignment. People attribute your Quirkiness to scum behavior. So I can understand why some people may see you as scum. That being said there is a chance that one scum that has voted you and since I believe lq is the other scum that makes the majority of your wagon town (3 out 4 at the least)

Following the leader, wherever he may go!

PS Lexa - Jordan flipped town, he needs to be a strong town read and not a moderate town read

[shannon]

@Gin that's a really good point. Either LQ is terribly unlucky in his choice of town read, or he was trying to cover Karnos.

[shannon]

VOTE: Lickety

L-2

[Lexa]

@Lexa why are you giving Jordan a moderate town read; he flipped town overnight..

I posted my post as it was before his flip, when it was almost ready when the day ended. Figured it was more helpful to leave the thought process behind my reads on him than go back and remove them

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

So Lexa, don't like walls, they're catch up posts and you just report what happened. What are you pushing for right now?

[Garmr]

I now find that there is a large contradiction in LQ's play. (Thanks Gramr, I think I was buddied because I love theory talk )

Well in the theory talk that LQ was explaining to me, he found it very AI the way people posted and that's how he got a read on him. This game he linked was a town game of Karnos. If what LQ says is what he believes, that means he would think Karnos is in fact town but he sat at null. I don't think it was really that hard to understand you either voted for Karnos cuz he was scummy to you or he was town. I find it odd that he remained null for the longest of times...

Oh, and trying to derail a wagon on a person he didn't think was town :p I'll derail any town wagon I see, even at one vote (as I did with ThinkBig), but I actually sometimes vote my null reads (ask Alisae lmfao) because it helps me discover more about their alignment and how they handle the wagon.

Those voting Karnos, I want you to look at this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66922

P-Edit: Mastina notice me

You got described one of the reasoning I was getting at but explained it better than I did and fleshed it out a little more thank you.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Yeah but you were the one that slapped me out of a daze lol

This is L-1 bee tea dubbs

VOTE: LQ

[Lexa]

So Lexa, don't like walls, they're catch up posts and you just report what happened. What are you pushing for right now?

VOTE: Pepchoninga

From my analysis they've been by far the scummiest player and I don't agree with the scum!LQ theories

[Lexa]

So Lexa, don't like walls, they're catch up posts and you just report what happened. What are you pushing for right now?

Also I don't care if you don't like walls, it's concisely written so go read it. Especially read the analysis but I guess that's just "reporting what happened" right?