Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

So what is it that you don't like about the theories?

I've seen scum do it 100% of the time and nigh remember a townie doing it, so yeah, fuck walls.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Walls as in catch up posts summarizing the thread

[Lexa]

I town read LQ, I don't find Garmr's arguments compelling, I find his quotes heavily cherrypicked, and I have three scum reads on the LQ wagon

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Here's the thing Lexa that I'm starting to pick up on. Scum are not good at, or choose not to participate in heated discussion. When you have to think of things quickly, it gets harder to produce thoughts that push a scum agenda as you can't manipulate the information but are forced to give out what you think. That's the meat and potatoes of a townie. So far with you doing only catch up posts and describing "this post is scummy and this one isn't" leaves you with being able to give scum reads, look like you're contributing but the key here is that you are not pushing shit.

You didn't even have a vote at the end of your analysis.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I town read LQ, I don't find Garmr's arguments compelling, I find his quotes heavily cherrypicked, and I have three scum reads on the LQ wagon

Explain to me why Garmr's arguments are not to your liking. Don't just say you don't like it. Tell me what is wrong with it.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

If LQ is your fucking town read you'd best be defending him hard at L-1

[Lexa]

Here's the thing Lexa that I'm starting to pick up on. Scum are not good at, or choose not to participate in heated discussion. When you have to think of things quickly, it gets harder to produce thoughts that push a scum agenda as you can't manipulate the information but are forced to give out what you think. That's the meat and potatoes of a townie. So far with you doing only catch up posts and describing "this post is scummy and this one isn't" leaves you with being able to give scum reads, look like you're contributing but the key here is that you are not pushing shit.

You didn't even have a vote at the end of your analysis.

I got home and literally c/ped my notepad of my post from when it was completed during n2. Or did you miss that?

Oh wait of course you did because you didn't read my post because "omg walls"

At the time I posted there had been four additional pages of content, dropping a vote outright there is irresponsible at best

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Lexa you made that during N1?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Lexa you made that during N1?

Nevermind this, thought I saw a contradiction but every time you regarded a flip it was about Karnos, thought your post included the Jordan flip.

Oh and I know that and went back and checked because I read it.

Just because i hate it doesn't mean I don't read it so fuck off and give actual reasons why you don't think Garmr is right.

[Lexa]

Primary reasoning: I find his arguments heavily cherrypicked ref post: 928

Suggesting that LQ is scum based on karnos trying to link LQ to garmr is weak at the best of times, suggesting that he's linking LQ to garmr to try and hide him is pure speculation, especially given his assertion that karnos is amateur scum where you can just as easily say that karnos is trying to push a scum team. This argument carries zero weight with me

Second response he cherrypicks a post out of a series of bickering posts between LQ and jordan claiming that this somehow represents a false claim. This is complete air.

I find post 183 completely NAI so that's more of a disagreement on what the most means than disagreeing with garmr's argument specifically

Ironically garmr does the same thing you accuse me of in 692, just saying something is bad without saying why

[Lexa]

Lexa you made that during N1?

Just because i hate it doesn't mean I don't read it so fuck off and give actual reasons why you don't think Garmr is right.

I was getting there sheesh

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Alright, now your thoughts on my post explaining the contradiction in LQ's playstyle and how he read Karnos/never voted?

[mastina]

LicketyQuicketyis at L-1!

Twenty-seventh Votecount

:

(Fifth Votecount D2)

LicketyQuickety - 5 (Garmr, All Alone, Alisae, shannon, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)

Alisae - 2 (PranaDevil, ThinkBig)

Pepchoninga - 1 (Lexa)

Not Voting - 3 (BlueBloodedToffee, LicketyQuickety, Pepchoninga)

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

LicketyQuickety is at L-1!

Day 2's deadline is Monday, February 20th, @ 3:30 PM PST--(expired on 2017-02-20 15:30:00).

V/LA Notices/Mod Notes:

• mastina, the moderator, is V/LA over weekends.
  
• ThinkBig is V/LA through Monday, February 6th.

[Lexa]

If LQ is your fucking town read you'd best be defending him hard at L-1

Per my review I've found the vast majority of alignment indicative things LQ has done to be towny or town-oriented. I cannot support a lynch on him especially when his wagon is composed of mostly scum and null reads, especially when I have much stronger scum reads available to be lynched like pep who somehow has still avoided any and all scrutiny.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

What post (hyperbole warning) screamed town to you? You like to reference posts to explain your reads so I don't doubt you can do me this courtesy to build a town case on LQ.

[Lexa]

I now find that there is a large contradiction in LQ's play. (Thanks Gramr, I think I was buddied because I love theory talk )

Well in the theory talk that LQ was explaining to me, he found it very AI the way people posted and that's how he got a read on him. This game he linked was a town game of Karnos. If what LQ says is what he believes, that means he would think Karnos is in fact town but he sat at null. I don't think it was really that hard to understand you either voted for Karnos cuz he was scummy to you or he was town. I find it odd that he remained null for the longest of times...

Oh, and trying to derail a wagon on a person he didn't think was town :p I'll derail any town wagon I see, even at one vote (as I did with ThinkBig), but I actually sometimes vote my null reads (ask Alisae lmfao) because it helps me discover more about their alignment and how they handle the wagon.

Those voting Karnos, I want you to look at this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66922

P-Edit: Mastina notice me

<<< You're my favorite student.
...no, it doesn't matter that you're my ONLY student, my statement still stands as accurate anyway! >>>

The argument you base your stance on him here is

heavily

contingent in LQ believing karnos is town based on him having a previous town game and assuming he would have the same meta. Without speaking for LQ if I'm reading someone I'm not using meta solely to determine their alignment, I'm accounting for it but I'm not claiming them as town or scum solely based on how their meta tone matches up to previous games, especially not earlier in a day before they've made any claims or statements or actions to compare their meta to.

Wagon derailment is a reasonable argument

[Lexa]

What post (hyperbole warning) screamed town to you? You like to reference posts to explain your reads so I don't doubt you can do me this courtesy to build a town case on LQ.

I referenced several towny posts in my catchup post, the towniest post to me was 600 in defense of ThinkBig. I found his reasoning solid and town motivated, it was a risky defense for scum~LQ to make at the time given the momentum gaining towards him and the only scum motivation I could see would be scum buddies - something risky in and of itself given the clear linkages it establishes between the two.

[Garmr]

I town read LQ, I don't find Garmr's arguments compelling, I find his quotes heavily cherrypicked, and I have three scum reads on the LQ wagon

Honestly I think your scum reads are pretty shit well the ones on the LQ wagon at least. As alisae,All alone and gin are town reads of mine.


Also your trying to use cherry picking to try and discredit a reasoning? Addressing the reasoning itself would be better lol.

Also you're dodging the interactions between LQ and karnos.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

The basis in why I say that is because later on he actually says he will go out of his way to prove that the post formatting is town!Karnos in Evidence A.

Evidence B is 3 quotes showing that he HEAVILY relies on using that as part of his reads as that is apparently what he is really good at, what he uses to form opinions.

So yes, I fully believe that given "LQ's special type of meta" and how he portrayed it, that he would town reading Karnos pretty hard but he didn't. He was at a null.

Spoiler: Evidence A

Why point out that the post formatting is the same, if it doesn't mean anything Lickety?

Because its evidence that if he is Scum there is no gaping holes in his game by even appearance of his posts. This indicates someone who would be rather proficient as a Scum player if he is Scum in this game.

I often observe and notice things other people don't consider. This is one of those things.

Honestly his format isn't the same if there's so much difference through.

Do I really have to go "Ham" and point out how they are similar, because I totally will.

Spoiler: Evidence B

Post formatting is not alignment indicative. I'm sorry but it's silly.

How do you know this? Have you even had a conversation about it before?

You're judging a book in the means if it's a hardback or a softback cover. You need to actually analyze the reading inside the book. The rest doesn't matter.

Now, what you might be getting at is a person naked voting as scum and then voting with reasoning attached to the same post as town. If that's it, then I understand that.

However if you're saying it's alignment indicative in a person in how they format posts, ya know basically the aesthetic part of making a post, then I'm just going to say it's silly.

Nope, nope, nope. Disagree so much with you on that. The aesthetic stuff is actually really really good to look at. Reason: Hardly anyone thinks to adapt their game that way. Also, meta tells are almost never as you describe them. Its about what that person plays like, not making a list of things they do or don't do as either alignment. If that is the way you do meta tells, then you will have to play many more games with the same person to be able to get a solid info base, which btw, changes all the time. Its about reading the personality of the player, not a categorical methodology.

And its not whether its hard cover or soft cover. Its about what the paragraph structure is like, what the diction used is like, what is the range of emotions that person exhibits in their play.

If after post game this ends up working, I'll consider looking more into your theory work. I am of the opinion that if anyone has any literary talent, they can easily fake emotions. I personally hold more weight to a persons argument and how they present it over emotions. I'm more of the objective over the subjective reader if you catch my drift.

I use both but I am better at subjective stuff.

[Lexa]

The basis in why I say that is because later on he actually says he will go out of his way to prove that the post formatting is town!Karnos in Evidence A.

Evidence B is 3 quotes showing that he HEAVILY relies on using that as part of his reads as that is apparently what he is really good at, what he uses to form opinions.

So yes, I fully believe that given "LQ's special type of meta" and how he portrayed it, that he would town reading Karnos pretty hard but he didn't. He was at a null.

Spoiler: Evidence A

Why point out that the post formatting is the same, if it doesn't mean anything Lickety?

Because its evidence that if he is Scum there is no gaping holes in his game by even appearance of his posts. This indicates someone who would be rather proficient as a Scum player if he is Scum in this game.

I often observe and notice things other people don't consider. This is one of those things.

Honestly his format isn't the same if there's so much difference through.

Do I really have to go "Ham" and point out how they are similar, because I totally will.

Spoiler: Evidence B

Post formatting is not alignment indicative. I'm sorry but it's silly.

How do you know this? Have you even had a conversation about it before?

You're judging a book in the means if it's a hardback or a softback cover. You need to actually analyze the reading inside the book. The rest doesn't matter.

Now, what you might be getting at is a person naked voting as scum and then voting with reasoning attached to the same post as town. If that's it, then I understand that.

However if you're saying it's alignment indicative in a person in how they format posts, ya know basically the aesthetic part of making a post, then I'm just going to say it's silly.

Nope, nope, nope. Disagree so much with you on that. The aesthetic stuff is actually really really good to look at. Reason: Hardly anyone thinks to adapt their game that way. Also, meta tells are almost never as you describe them. Its about what that person plays like, not making a list of things they do or don't do as either alignment. If that is the way you do meta tells, then you will have to play many more games with the same person to be able to get a solid info base, which btw, changes all the time. Its about reading the personality of the player, not a categorical methodology.

And its not whether its hard cover or soft cover. Its about what the paragraph structure is like, what the diction used is like, what is the range of emotions that person exhibits in their play.

If after post game this ends up working, I'll consider looking more into your theory work. I am of the opinion that if anyone has any literary talent, they can easily fake emotions. I personally hold more weight to a persons argument and how they present it over emotions. I'm more of the objective over the subjective reader if you catch my drift.

I use both but I am better at subjective stuff.

Compelling argument. I don't necessarily agree that he would be town-reading karnos but I can entertain the possibility.

Why do you think that him not town-reading karnos when you think he should be is scum-indicative? Why does that outweigh his other contributions that (imo) are considerably town-oriented?

[Lexa]

I town read LQ, I don't find Garmr's arguments compelling, I find his quotes heavily cherrypicked, and I have three scum reads on the LQ wagon

Honestly I think your scum reads are pretty shit well the ones on the LQ wagon at least. As alisae,All alone and gin are town reads of mine.

I'm not exactly surprised that my reads differ from someone whom I've marked for close attention

Also your trying to use cherry picking to try and discredit a reasoning? Addressing the reasoning itself would be better lol.

I believe I've done so in reponse to gin

Also you're dodging the interactions between LQ and karnos.

Clarify which ones for me? I may have missed it in responding to other parts of posts

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Here's the thing. This game is about psychology. One thing I'm actually going to do some theory work is the reaction caused by two scums and having one buddy the other.

Ya see, scum don't like calling their scum partners scum because they don't actually want them lynched, they also don't want to call their scum partners town because they don't want to take any heat for "town reading" someone when they flip scum.

So it is common scum psychology and henceforth the scum motivation to provide a town case for Karnos while not actually out right saying he thinks Karnos is town to not draw attention

[mastina]

Ooh, theory! I love game theory!

[Lexa]

Here's the thing. This game is about psychology. One thing I'm actually going to do some theory work is the reaction caused by two scums and having one buddy the other.

Ya see, scum don't like calling their scum partners scum because they don't actually want them lynched, they also don't want to call their scum partners town because they don't want to take any heat for "town reading" someone when they flip scum.

So it is common scum psychology and henceforth the scum motivation to provide a town case for Karnos while not actually out right saying he thinks Karnos is town to not draw attention

I agree that this is often the case. I contend that it's also common for town to be cautious in labeling people scum or town while also building a case for similar reasons, either to avoid being pressured for a vote or read that they may not be certain of or to avoid entrenching themselves in labeling bias. This seems more likely in LQs case than in the null case for reasons such as those seen in 226 where he explicitly states that his methods of reasoning are more fluid and the implication is that it takes time to get to concrete reads.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Mastina, obviously you can't talk to me about it right now but sit on the idea and give me feedback post-game where you may talk without game influence.

So hearing me out, one thing I notice is that the scum move of "buddying" a townie to carry in LyLo for the win or just in general has only been done by a scum to a townie. Almost every time I see the associative say "he buddied Player X so he must be town." Now if you were to do that with scum onto a scum, not only would you clear your partner if you flipped, but you also effectively null a town tell which later increases your scum game in the future.