Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I'd forget it as well.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

So Prana, your scum team pick is?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

It's Lexa/Titus.

[PranaDevil]

Lexa/Titus

I'm going through Titus' posts, as I said I would yesterday, to show first the inconsistency and second the fact she dragged everyone away from Lexa, claimed Lexa wasn't a suspect, but has afterwards kept Lexa in the "three that need lynching" so that if her buddy "is" hit, there's two more to get rid of (this is prior to Garmr's meltdown as I'm going through it), now we have one more lynch before we all go wrong, and if it seems people want Lexa lynched, Titus can get on board, choo choo her way to "see, I'm not scum" territory, and win the next day, and if Lexa isn't the lynch, and say it's myself, Titus insta-wins and has even directed town into it.

But I'm getting ahead of myself, the contradictions stand out a mile, especially when Titus admits to not even reading the thread, meaning her ENTIRE stance, according to her has come from VCA, which means the fact she bounces around so much is evidence she can't keep her story straight here. But you'll see that shortly.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

@Titus, can you show me a town game where you based reads based off of VCA and you never actually read the thread?

[ThinkBig]

Also @titus and Devil, can you show me a recent town/scum game?

[ThinkBig]

Last time I played with town Titus, I don't hemember her doing any VCA

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69517

[PranaDevil]

Apologies for huge wall-o-text, however the very vast majority is quotes, and some of my responses are short.

Ok, i need claims, if the scum lynch was a guilty.

Also, if someone colors and replaces all names in Mastina's VCA that would be awesome.

right out of the door "I want claims, gimme claims!"

What are your reads on each current player? (I accept read through may take time, on the flip side... two days of quick lynching will speed it up considerably, on the other hand, two tonnes of shit-posting may make it a slog)

I do not read

until I do my VCA barring extrem circumstances

.

Fixed that for you.

Alisae - 3 (PranaDevil, nydushermain, shannon)
XnadrojX - 2 (karnos, Alisae)
karnos - 2 (Garmr, XnadrojX)

Garmr and the three names on Alisae have major scumpoints to here, but there is little to zero chance that there are two scum on the Alisae wagon, as they'd likely jump onto X wagon

So that's major scum points to me, Gin (Nyd's replacement) and shannon... got it.

karnos - 4 (Garmr, XnadrojX, BlueBloodedToffee, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)[/color]
All Alone - 3 (Lexa, Alisae, LicketyQuickety)
LicketyQuickety - 3 (PranaDevil, shannon, ThinkBig)

Leaning town on PranaDevil, because of the fact scum are not jumping onto karnos, yet an LQ wagon seems to be appearing. Why not just join the AA wagon. This suggests that either a) scum are splitting their votes between AA and LQ and are unsure which they want to push or b) AA is doing what scum want and scum would rather wagon LQ because his reads are objectively better at this point. The names on LQ are the same names from Alisae before. There's a wierd alliance between PranaDevil and shannon that needs prodding to see if it is organic.

Ah, I'm suddenly town because scum "aren't" jumping on karnos... riiiight. Didn't Titus also say scum would attempt counter wagons?

karnos - 6 (Garmr, XnadrojX, BlueBloodedToffee, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, PranaDevil, ThinkBig)[/color]
All Alone - 2 (Lexa, LicketyQuickety)
ThinkBig - 2 (shannon, Alisae)
LicketyQuickety - 1 (All Alone)
XnadrojX - 1 (karnos)

Not Voting - 2 (Pepchoninga)

This ending suggests a mass bus after the scum failed to get a town wagon to counter. Although, if I'm candid, I'd suspect my slot for not even trying during this wagon. The lack of a counter = ineffective scum or lurker scum.

We have ineffective scum here and I know that because I am in the slot of lurker.

Oh yeah... contradiction number 1 because it fits an agenda. Big tick.

Interesting, both day 2 wagons on town, and little pressure on the backhalf of the wagon. Those wagons taking off makes horrible sense which suggests scum are promoting bad town with their bus cred.

Hindsight is always 20/20, easy to know who's town when they're dead and painted green.

I'm thinking more Shannon, PranaDevil as my top two myself at the moment but I need to organize my thoughts before coming down with where I'd like to focus.

No mention of Lexa, everyone off the Lexa train, we need to move the votes elsewhere, please do not pass go, do not collect £200.

Major hint that scum already have a mislynch in mind (or if you didn't know my slot's alignment) that I am scum or it's too early to determine lurkers

Where did this come from?

On day 1, when scum don't care to pressure a lurker, it's because they do not need to.

My slot wasn't pressured for shit.

Scum did not need to.

So because Titus has gained a couple of followers off the back of doing sweet fuck all, she uses her "obv. town" status to get them to ignore the fact she could strongly be scum thanks to this, and direct them away from it. It's easy to say scum don't need to pressure a lurker, but first, not everyone plays the game the same way, and second, if scum aren't in the lurker slot, they may be waiting on someone else to bring up the lurker stuff and follow in from it with the plan to be call someone else out on it later? Also, scum that consider VCA late game could easily avoid bussing a buddy by letting town do the work. Even my VCA stuff included the fact that scum were definitely on the karnos wagon... but flip that around to me being scum, and I could easily keep off that wagon and use that same argument, and oh look... we mislynch til the cows come home.

Basically, this Titus post was WIFOM and nothing else.

I'm being fucking stupid because I know scum slips come from town 90% of the time but could you reword it because it's bugging me seeing "that I am scum"

It just sounds really weird and makes me uncomfortable

No problem.

If scum don't pressure a lurker slot it's because either

a) Scum have a planned mislynch
b) It's a buddy
c) Scum don't need to (planned bus, town eating itself, etc)

Along with many other reasons, as stated above. Leading town to thinking there are only a couple of set answers is bad.

The only one I've come up with so far is that scum is in fact pressuring the lurker but that would mean I'm scum so I'm still puzzling.

Although admitting this makes me wonder why scum!you would say that

Yeah I haven't thought Lexa's scum for awhile.

Lexa isn't scum guys, stop voting her!

I'll point out, this is AFTER all VCA has been done. Titus has completely finished her VCA at this stage... her statement is that Lexa isn't scum.

Also, why is Lexa at L-1 when:

I was asked to unvote her earlier when I put her at L-1
We are all waiting to hear about Titus' VC, and Titus has indicated she thinks Lexa might not be scum
Gin, who you are all saying is conf town, is also starting to be a bit up in the air about Lexa

Town posting or Lexa buddy.

I do have a couple concerns on Gin but they are role related.

Oh, Lexa's scum...

I think Lexa is a better lynch because:
1. He lied about his role (I am a firm believer in lynching all liars, that is unless a doctor or cop claims VT in order to investigate and avoid the NK);
2. If she flips Mafia, Titus is essentially cleared

Right now her flip will tell us more than Devil.

Wrong.

You think Lexa has a bad claim. Devil isn't even claiming. If Lexa was forced into a bad claim, Devil should have no good claim either.

If Lexa is a roleblocker, regardless of alignment, we lynch scum. They can be publicly directed on who to block.

Devil's claim dodge on the allegation mass claim wasn't started is srmantic and garbage. We want it now and we want Devil to go first.

Devil death also clears up spots on wagon.

Lexa could be scum... vote Prana though!

You're Devil's buddy aren't you?

You unvote when I move momentum away from Lexa and try to speed rush her lynch when I try to get a Devil claim?

Her own statement at moving the lynch OFF Lexa, and now wanting to link someone we now KNOW was town with my slot...

After the claim tho Titus, I do need you to give reads based on day play.

You already have them. Devil and Garmr are the scums barring a jarring claim.

See?

He's a suspect in it. Lexa isn't really.

Ignore Lexa... do not vote for the Lexa, nothing to see here, move along please.

I see what you did there

No offence gin but you should be really thinking right now if you think titus has a guilty.


Because then claimed roles are

joat role cop varitions plus fruit vender
joat cop varitions
joat dr varitions
roleblocker
titus supposed role that makes gin want



It pretty much confirms that one of the power roles proposed is lying about their role or alignment. Town would not have this much power.

Balance whine when I haven't even claimed officially. Priceless.

5 town power roles isn't a problem at all guys, don't worry!

I still however, have Shannon as viable and Lexa as a long shot.

Lexa might be scum guys, just in case...

I tell you that's not his claim. Now, how could I know what PD was claiming without investigating him? Either, I saw a role hint (Highly unlikely, given I hadn't read and I am asking for claims), investigated him (Really, with a dead rolecop), I am scum (you already know this one is false), or I am the very role so it's highly unlikely PD will claim it. This is what you should have deduced by page 68, Post 1679.

So Titus knew what I was claiming... yet I never claimed anything, top marks there. Especially considering it's a role that TB had been talking about for a fair chunk of the game (In future TB, keep quiet about stuff like that, the ONLY people who need to try and work out who are what roles are scum, if you think you spot something, make a note of it, and use it for future reference if it's required, but never shout about it in thread, and never should about set up speculation). Titus can easily make out she has that type of role, and if I'm not that role (3 JOATs is already stupidly OP, let alone 4 and a roleblocker, so me not having that role is high anyway) the chance of faking catching someone is high when we're in LyLo or MyLo... and oh look, that would just happen to be the very next day after she claimed... imagine that.

That being said, if we suppose Garmr is town, if we find the scum other than Lexi today, we can force an inevitable endgame.

Lexi cannot block me. We know Lexi isn't an ascetic.

I track/follow Lexi. Lexi blocks someone other than me. Either scum must no kill (due to being blocked or framing), or we get some fucking clears.

"Lexa's scum now guys. I know I said she wasn't earlier, but she is."

Also, pay VERY close attention to that last line about Titus following Lexa.

If Garmr is scum (and at this point, I'm 99% confident that he is), the scum team should just resign

He's actually probably town.

Why's that?

If he is town, then the day ends. How do we play in tomorrow's MyLo?

You will be conftown. You get hammer.

Devil votes first, within 48 hours, or he gets rope.

I'm presuming I die there.

If you die instead of me, I out my result.

If I don't have a result, Lexa's scum.

"I know I only just said Lexa is scum and Garmr could be her buddy, but now we force Prana to vote first, even though I never mentioned him a minute ago".

Also, 48 hours is brilliant when some people aren't around all the time, and I'm clearly not around as regular as others, nice easy mislynch if I'm not able to be at a computer to properly check through everything and re-read (you know, how you actually play this game, by reading the sodding thread) in that short window of time. It also basically sends Gin and TB down a pre-set tunnel that IGNORES Titus entirely... which is amazingly interesting.

Here is my proposal:

Titus, you follow Lexa. Lexa roleblocks Devil. This is the only way I see confirming Lexa as a roleblocker.

We can easily confirm Lexa as a blocker. The thing is, I'd lose my result.

Your plan is ideal though.

Wait, wait, wait... what was that literally just two quotes above... Titus suggesting to follow Lexa, and now pretending it's not a good idea?

Why is that? If we take out shannon, we have:

1. shannon

3. TheRealGin-N-Tonic
5. Titus

6. Lexa

8. ThinkBig

13. PranaDevil

Shannon/Lexa/Devil

Just their negativity towards me. I can't put my finger on it. I feel better about Lexa than Shannon, but by role power, you are likely correct Lexa is scum. I just don't KNOW Lexa is scum.

We have a pool of 3 and three obvtowns.

We force them to vote on each other first. :nod:

"Get these guys to vote first, I'm obv. town so don't suspect me, we get them three to vote first, my buddy can easily vote where I want them to, and I can hammer for the win, it's easy!"

Fuck that noise. Titus is all over the place in her reads, literally EVERYONE outside of Gin and TB have been decided to be options, and neither Gin nor TB have actually looked into the fact they have been so heavily buddied it's ridiculous.

Titus has admitted to not reading the game...

Titus, have you read the thread yet?

Me read, puhleeze.

...as noted right there, and so can get away with not knowing certain things. But it also means her buddying of Gin and TB from the start of the VCA shite is telling. She saw two people who could be easily led by her, and used it to her advantage, and has placed herself in an "obv. town" position... nobody else did, she put herself there through leading people that chose not to question her motives.

I am strongly of the belief that Lexa/Titus are the scum team. It makes perfect sense to me for multiple reasons:

1 - Titus dragged everyone away from Lexa, that wagon stopped dead
2 - Attempted to make out Lexa wasn't a suspect
3 - The above failed, so Lexa became a suspect to stay town on the flip
4 - 4 JOATs is WAAAAAAY too OP, meaning one of Gin/shannon/Titus is lying.
5 - Roleblocker as a role only works for scum at this point
6 - Titus said she based her reasons for people being scum on VCA (see below), yet apparently that means everyone bar the two who were pretty much conf. town and herself, who wasn't on ANY wagon...

Her pairings seemed to jump between:

Prana/Lexa
Lexa/shannon
Garmr/Prana

Also, until Garmr self combusted, the Prana/Garmr pairing was the main one it seemed... so... ignore Lexa again at that point?

Her entire scum reads boiled down to "what can I get to seem plausible while buddying the confirmed town?"

Also, the quote for number 6:

Well at this point I believe there is only benefit to her claiming.

This. With TB being lock death tonight, what's the harm?

Other than not claiming can you tell me why prana is scum titus?

Vca.

Lexa/Titus scum team, I rest my case.

[PranaDevil]

Also @titus and Devil, can you show me a recent town/scum game?

Mate, I've been off site (hell, pretty much off the internet barring a phone) for over three years... unless you want Song Contest entries I can't show you a recent anything, and the old stuff even I can tell you I play different to how I did back then. I've changed a lot in the last three years thanks to not being online, so showing you old stuff would be a wasted effort.

[ThinkBig]

Also @titus and Devil, can you show me a recent town/scum game?

Mate, I've been off site (hell, pretty much off the internet barring a phone) for over three years... unless you want Song Contest entries I can't show you a recent anything, and the old stuff even I can tell you I play different to how I did back then. I've changed a lot in the last three years thanks to not being online, so showing you old stuff would be a wasted effort.

Fair enough.

Also, do you believe that the Karnos wagon was all town? Why or why not?

Also, if you think Lexa is lock scum why are we no lynching today?

[PranaDevil]

I believe Titus is scum, and that she was obv. getting people off the Lexa wagon. That means the karnos wagon had to be all town (we lose if we lynch wrong, so each of us needs to figure out who our top two scum reads are, or we lose for certain that also means figuring out who is town... and that leads to an all town karnos wagon, which I agree is unlikely, but if we assume the Pep slot is scum, then it's not that far fetched either as there was only one other scum, if Pep wasn't active, then scum would surely be worried about being left alone for the forseeable).

Also, while I believe Lexa is a lock for scum, I believed Alisae was a lock for scum D2 and D3, and look where that got us. I'd rather drop someone (which in all fairness means we should NL and then do said reads properly tomorrow, so scum don't know where to target), and have a smaller pool to work from. Yes that means "likely" losing TB or Gin, however as a whole everyone should be looking at everyone, it does nobody any favours to go down a set tunnel and take it as read that you are right without looking at others. I'd rather use night phase to do a full read of every player (especially if we NL now, I have this week free enough to dedicate a good few hours to re-reading each slot) and for us to all come back with fresh theories. Yes, all of us will waste time reading the slot that dies, and said slot will waste time doing any reading, but we can come in fresh with that information, and use that to re-assess everything.

If we lynch now, and we "are" wrong somehow, then we've already lost. Less options = less chance to fuck it up.

I also believe Titus is more likely scum than Lexa as I could see scum trying to buy extra support for "stopping" a town lynch, though I strongly believe both are definite scum.

My preference is NL, re-read, and then we reveal our reads at that point. NL is always the optimum play in a MyLo situation.

-------

Incidentally... I've noticed people confusing MyLo and LyLo, or using them interchangeably.

MyLo or "Mislynch and Lose" is when we have an even number of players, meaning if we lynch "wrong" we lose the game as scum kill at night means we return with an even number either side and we lose that way.

LyLo or "Lynch or Lose" is when we have an odd number and we know town outnumber scum by a single person, meaning if we don't lynch at all, we are guaranteed to lose.

Just something that has been bugging me.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

TB, my final decision is Lexa/Titus.

I scum read Lexa early on and I did the same with Pep. I town read Shannon and Prana. When I don't ignore my reads they're damn good. I'm trusting my gut and reasoning stated above.

No matter what happens, one of us has to die to 100% the other is town.

VOTE: No Lynch

[ThinkBig]

Fair enough.

VOTE: No Lynch

I'll probably be dead tonight. Kill Lexa first.

[shannon]

I'm fucking annoyed Pep's slot got to not play the whole fucking game and now we're here.

+1

I'd advocate a No Lynch if it meant scum would be forced to kill a slot people are contesting about but in this case, there is no contesting TB and I

This is a somewhat fair point, but I remind you of my post last night in regards to the fact I'm not sure about things right now, meaning even shannon's stuff regarding your slot makes some sense to me now, thus I'm not sure if there are any definitive confirmed town in my head at the moment.

Likely town? Sure, but enough to bank the entire game on it? I'm not so sure. (and I can understand that if, indeed, you are town, this seems like me just going back on my previous certain view that you are town, but considering everything... it worries me, and I hoe you can appreciate that if you are town).

I still need to go over Titus as a whole, but I strongly feel her entry and pushing has not been for town's purpose, and the fact she basically had two buddies before she even replaced in, who were willing to side with her throughout the VCA even to the point of overlooking any and all contradictions and errors in judgement, and it's of absolutely no shock to me that you two were obv. town for all that time, which is why it's very interesting that prior to Garmr's wobbly you guys were obv. town and were easily town and as a block you could easily win... and now we hit MyLo (with the option of No Lynch for LyLo), she suddenly questions even your slot and only has TB as confirmed town, yet uses a really piss poor argument of "even if TB isn't we have to go through Gin to get at him" to answer it. We're at a point where we can't afford a mislynch... which means if Gin and TB are lying we've lost anyway, and if we're being directed elsewhere as well, how would we ever know?

Thus I feel like Titus is creating confusion from a no lynch, set it up so that TB is the "only logical one to die as he's the only confirmed town" based on solely her wording, and then attempt to use her "result" to direct us to someone else... perhaps "catching" a lying Gin who is no longer "obv. town"? Or "catch" a Prana that was obv. town right up until her entry?

everything just smells of bullshit and deciet and it's only because she has two lapdogs that she seems to have got away with it. I really, really want everyone to question Titus' slot here. Don't bother asking questions, she clearly hasn't read the thread and so actually playing mafia isn't her strong suit, but read her posts and question the motives behind them, which is what I'm doing shortly.

I think we are on the same page here

{Prana,

Jordan

}
{

Gin

,

Garmr

,

Lickety

}
{

Alisae

,

Karnos

, Lexa}
{

All Alone

,

ThinkBig

}

Pep isn't mentioned

Whoops! Shows what an impression the slot made.

@Titus, can you show me a town game where you based reads based off of VCA and you never actually read the thread?

I have only seen Titus use the 'not reading' thing when she subs in to a game, not when she's in the game from the start. It seems like the sort of thing she'd keep doing even as town, because it's so useful as scum (as today is showing).


Is No Lynch the official line?

If TB and Gin are scum we're done for anyway, so I may as well follow them, whether to doom or Glorious Town Victory.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

If TB and Gin are scum we're done for anyway, so I may as well follow them, whether to doom or Glorious Town Victory.

We have to die, if one of us doesn't die over the other, scum know they just tossed the game out of the air.

[shannon]

VOTE: No Lynch

[ThinkBig]

In hindsight, I am still unsure about Titus/Devil, though I am confident Lexa is scum. Lynch Lexa first.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

This game is so bloody weird in how you advocate for your own death

[shannon]

???

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I'm saying it's optimal play that I should die. I don't remember playing Monopoly and have the winning strategy be to go bankrupt on purpose lolol

[ThinkBig]

If he scum team decides to no kill, should we no lynch again?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

If you think I won't wait this bitch out lmfao

[PranaDevil]

If he scum team decides to no kill, should we no lynch again?

Without discussion, yes.

[Titus]

I have only seen Titus use the 'not reading' thing when she subs in to a game, not when she's in the game from the start. It seems like the sort of thing she'd keep doing even as town, because it's so useful as scum (as today is showing).

I actually read as scum and not as town. The strategy is not useful for scum, because there's a lack of knowledge and more ways to be caught.

I find it interesting how people keep deflecting from you.

[Titus]

Sorry deflecting from PD. Similar avatars.