Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[Titus]

I generally take a pretty firm stance that I don't reread unless you tell me what to look at.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

LEXA I TOLD YOU CATCH UP POSTING WAS SCUM PLAY. I FUCKING KNEW IT

[PranaDevil]

Speaking of which, did ANYONE catch what I was hinting at at any point?

By this, I mean the role I was claiming I had multiple times, and thought I had made it ridiculously obvious, and apparently everyone thought I claimed VT...

[ThinkBig]

Lexa and Devil, you guys played well and it is a respectable loss. Devil did a good job at coming across as town and I TR'd him for most of the game.

Good job guys.

[Titus]

Also, Titus... while you did get there with the VCA, and were bang on the money, the only problem with it was with all the changes in accusing people (and I get the feeling it was to get reactions and work out who my partner is, I just abused that a bit), it was very easy for me to make a big thing about it, and while you were obviously able to see through what I was doing, I didn't have to prove anything to you, just others, thus knowing you had caught me wasn't an issue unless others bought it, and it was relatively easy to point out things like your changing of opinion of Lexa.

Although, in hindsight, my feeling of how "obv scum" Lexa was dropped rapidly from when I was bullshitting my own VCA to make out it was "either" one or the other, and it was impossible to be both, and that really should have been a massive red flag, so I should be careful of that next time, think I got lucky there.

And yeah, Garmr's idiocy made the game much better in a way, and while I was hoping for straight to night, that would have been super unfair to town.

Apologies to anyone I wound up massively in this game too. I'm a bastard when I want to be. ^_^

My VCA was stream of consciousness and was a mistake. I wasn't actually suspecting any of those slots at the end, but I did it so Gin could follow rather than my usual VCA.

[Lexa]

Oh btw the setup was 4 town Joat 1 scum Joat. I had one shots of ninja kill/strongman kill/roleblock

[Lexa]

LEXA I TOLD YOU CATCH UP POSTING WAS SCUM PLAY. I FUCKING KNEW IT

Lol I was actually legit busy, life has been hectic lately

[PranaDevil]

LEXA I TOLD YOU CATCH UP POSTING WAS SCUM PLAY. I FUCKING KNEW IT

In fairness most of the posts that people town read me on were catch up play... by the same token it is the same play I use when town.

I think that was one of the reasons I went so long being viewed as town, I literally played as though I was town, regardless of who it was, whoever was scummiest, I would have my vote on, same actually went for karnos. Had nothing to do with "welp, better bus him", and everything to do with the fact that, at that point, he was the scummiest player.

[ThinkBig]

@Devil and @Lexa, both of you are respectable players and I really hope to be in a game with you sometime soon. If I ever role scum again, I want to role it with Devil.

[PranaDevil]

My VCA was stream of consciousness and was a mistake. I wasn't actually suspecting any of those slots at the end, but I did it so Gin could follow rather than my usual VCA.

This still confuses me even now... you did your VCA, and it was only after that where you started to guess teams. So even now when we all know the game has ended, it still reads as a lie... how do the teams change via VCA after VCA has been done? I'm confused (and I think that's why I was able to push it so much... I'm legitimately confused, it makes no sense to me, and thus I think Gin had the same issue, meaning you were caught out n something that really is an obvious miscommunication, and not any kind of scummy issue)

[Lexa]

Big ups to Devil, he definitely carried the major load for our team. I spent most of my efforts trying to scumhunt while coordinating wagons to avoid VC implications.

This was actually only my second time starting a game as scum and I'd hoped to get town for my first game here so it was helpful to have prana take the lead.

I'm better as scum but town is more fun :p

(If I ever look like the scummiest scum to ever scum I'm lock town)

[PranaDevil]

@Devil and @Lexa, both of you are respectable players and I really hope to be in a game with you sometime soon. If I ever role scum again, I want to role it with Devil.

You just want to be on team Hedgehog. I know your game.

In seriousness, thanks. First game back and my initial theory was, with me not playing for well over 3 years, Lexa being new on the site, and no clue with karnos at that point, I thought we were screwed right out of the gate. So even getting to LyLo shocked me. Although Garmr did essentially help by being a fourth scum in essence.

Big ups to Devil, he definitely carried the major load for our team. I spent most of my efforts trying to scumhunt while coordinating wagons to avoid VC implications.

This was actually only my second time starting a game as scum and I'd hoped to get town for my first game here so it was helpful to have prana take the lead.

I'm better as scum but town is more fun :p

(If I ever look like the scummiest scum to ever scum I'm lock town)

Let's not pretend here, I seemed to take the lead, but 99% of the time I came up with an idea, asked for an opinion... and had already acted and moved on without any input (stupid timezones... scummy time zones even ), or had suggested the double hammer thing (damn you Titus, don't think anyone else would have been so adamant about watching out for that), in that we wait for literally any vote, post in our PT so we're both on at the same time, and then hammer together... Titus made damned sure that wasn't an option for me, and thus I just voted Titus anyway.

You held your end of the party well Lexa, in fact come the end of yesterday and today, I could have easily been the weak link.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Btw, I forgot to mention but another reason I was suspect of Titus is last night I went to bed with Titus voting Prana and after waking up and seeing everyone post with no scum hammer, it reminded me Hiraiki voting KainTepes in a LyLo and leaving the vote.

So, that might also help you understand why I couldn't fathom you being town

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

For the record, I do actually hate being in LyLo

[Titus]

Btw, I forgot to mention but another reason I was suspect of Titus is last night I went to bed with Titus voting Prana and after waking up and seeing everyone post with no scum hammer, it reminded me Hiraiki voting KainTepes in a LyLo and leaving the vote.

So, that might also help you understand why I couldn't fathom you being town

Nope.

At PoE, all that confirms at least one scum in the grouping. It doesn't confirm the other as town. If I thought such a syllogism was possible, I would have said I was conftown because I voted first and left RL being the reason for leaving being damned.

I only voted first in lylo because you and shannon threatened to vote me, making me the suspected townie and thus I vote first in lylo.

[Lexa]

The other thing too with gin and shannon living to p3 is that there's two joat claims alive at that point with two confirmed. Assuming I get lynched (and I'd considered several gambits based on getting lynched) we can cast doubt on one of the claims based on balance which further implicates gin, hopefully pushing him towards shannon since he knows he's town

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

I voted Prana after you came in, I forget what happened that made me lose trust in you

[mastina]

I believe there was a hammer. Let me check.

[mastina]

Vote Titus

Confirming: this is a hammer vote.

[mastina]

Forty-eighth Votecount

:

(Fourth and Final Votecount D5)

Titus - 3 (PranaDevil, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Lexa)

PranaDevil - 1 (Titus)

Not Voting - 1 (shannon)

With

5

alive, it takes

3

to lynch.

Day 5's deadline is Thursday, March 9th, @ 3:00 PM PST--(expired on 2017-03-09 19:02:05).

V/LA Notices/Mod Notes:

• mastina, the moderator, is V/LA over weekends.
  

[mastina]

Fun fact:

Did you know that in this 5p mylo, you had four JOATs alive and a goon?

"Uh, mastina. You're not allowed to tell us that type of information while the game's ongoing."

Yeah, abooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooout that.........

Titus

,

Town JOAT

(

Tracker, Follower, Motion Detector

)

, was

lynched Day Five

.

shannon

,

Town JOAT

(

Doctor, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard

)

, was

endgamed

.

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

,

Town JOAT

(

Cop, Gunsmith, Neapolitan

)

, was

endgamed

.

The

scumteam

consisting of

karnos

(

Goon

)

,

Lexa

(

JOAT[Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker]

)

, and

PranaDevil

, have

won Mini Normal 1873!

Topics, game thoughts, and mod rants incoming shortly. (There's a lot of paperwork involved at game's end.)

[mastina]

Gin do you mind relinking those mastina threads you did way early in the game, could use some reading material

The sad thing is, if Gin had actually followed my damn advice, Gin woulda lynched your slot because ALL MY FUCKING THEORY WORK SAYS LYNCH LEXA this game.

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Wait what piece?

[mastina]

Overall, besides half the town having bloody power roles

People REALLY need to get a better sense of balance in games.
Four town roles, especially gated ones (the entirety of this game's power was designed to be used up by the end of N3!), is standard levels of town power. As in, you're basically not going to find a game with less than this in terms of town power in a mini normal. You also MASSIVELY underestimated the strength of your joat--the strongman punches through the single protection role which is already severely limited. The ninja is immune to the already severely limited tracker. If you strongman killed Gin, then the only role NOT left compromised was All Alone's JOAT--which wouldn't be able to directly catch scum aside from a lucky shot on Lexa. (Which Gin pulled

anyway

.) Because scum could act and kill, All Alone's fruit vend was useless filler, basically put in to have him have a third power. (It was originally a duplicate Neapolitan, but the reviewers nixed that.) All Alone's rolecop could confirm that a JOAT was what they claimed, and could catch Lexa, but was useless for vanillas. Similarly so for the Vanilla Cop: it could catch Lexa lying about being Vanilla (more on that later), but couldn't do anything otherwise. His role was basically filler, to buff the town's strength up marginally, helping to confirm town roles and in one specific instance catch the scum role but otherwise was in the game because withOUT him, your team was too strong.

[mastina]

Wait what piece?

Direct from the ranting/raving thread, aka spoilered dead PT:

So if the town mislynches Titus here, they'll have committed five of the deadly cardinal sins in a game. I'm listing them below:

Sin the first: Ignoring Lynch All Liars

. "But mastina!", the town desperately cries out. "Town lie, too!" Why yes! Yes they do! Which is why you have to actually fucking EVALUATE the lie, and you've thusfar been failing to do so. In this case, run Lexa's claim through the following three-strikes rule:

STRIKE ONE: How the lie was found.

Lexa told a lie with the intention of it sticking. It was only when TheRealGin-N-Tonic forcefully exposed her lie (she claimed VT, and Gin, with a Neapolitan, got a "Not a Vanilla Townie" result) that she was put in a position where she had no choice but to change her claim. Check.

STRIKE TWO: The circumstances behind the lie.

Lexa claimed her motive for lying, but did it actually make sense? Why, no. No, it didn't. You let her bullshit slide without giving a thought as to whether it made sense to do her actions as town, and didn't consider if maybe her actions made more sense as scum. (They did.)

STRIKE THREE: The convenience of the claim.

Lexa claimed to block known entities only. Garmr was a claimed VT. Pepchoninga was obviously flaked from the game. (More on that below.) All Alone was dead already, and unable to call her out on this (which he would have done!). There were questions as to why she didn't block other players--there weren't any in-depth inquiries as to why she DID block who she did, and while a player did bring up how "easy" the claim was...you failed to actually fucking USE that to lynch her.

Sin the second: failure to do basic setup spec.

Let's look at the roles we've had claimed, and flipped. We've got a JOAT who has a rolecop and a Vanilla Cop: these powers share an obvious theme. We've got a claimed JOAT who had a doctor, jailkeep, and bodyguard: these powers share the theme of protection. We've got a claimed JOAT who had a cop, gunsmith, and neapolitan: these powers share the theme of being hard investigatives. We've got a claimed JOAT who has a track, follow, and motion detector: these powers share the theme of being tracker-variant powers. We've got a claimed full-Roleblocker.
...
...
...One of these things is not like the others. Lynch the odd woman out.

Sin the third: failure to do basic interactions

. Who could Titus actually be scum with? Realistically. Her reads are scattered all over the place, lacking strong cohesion. The little she's pushed suggests strongly she's not scum with PranaDevil. The fact that PranaDevil and shannon both heavily suspect her indicates she's less likely to be their scumbuddies, too. The only possibilities are TheRealGin-N-Tonic and Lexa, but more on the Lexa scenario below. She's a universal scumread. That means, every player--literally every player in the game--is calling her scum. Which means one of two things: either her scumbuddy is bussing her...or FAR more likely (and this is the reason a failure to do basic interactions is a cardinal sin!), she's the town mislynch in lylo: scum want her dead and so do town.

Sin the fourth: failure to consider the circumstances of the game in relationship to the slot

. Pepchoninga was in the process of siteflaking at the end of D1. D2 and D3 were quicklynches, so I was unable to replace the slot. It wasn't until I was presented with evidence of the siteflake that I could replace the slot on D4. This told the town that Pepchoninga was unable to do anything. In other words, Titus as town would have all of her powers, or be scum with a scumbuddy who was playing solo for two if not THREE of the game's nights--figure out who said scumbuddy would be before so much as considering a lynch on Titus, because Titus would not be the one driving the nightkills.

Sin the fifth: failure to apply occam's razor

. Which makes more sense? Titus claimed a role which perfectly fit into the game as scum, when she hadn't even read the game and was in a slot which hadn't played since D1...OR, that Titus had a role which was actually fucking in the game?
Furthermore, which of the below scenarios makes the most sense?
Titus is scum, and Lexa is also scum. Titus claims a result indicating she is blocked, and Lexa is a claimed roleblocker. They did this to establish distance. (If you somehow believe this, then the correct move is...fucking lynching Lexa.)
Titus is scum with shannon, Lexa is a town roleblocker. Titus, knowing Lexa is a roleblocker, claims a result indicating she is blocked, knowing Lexa is going to have a claim which contradicts her.
Titus is scum with someone else, Lexa is town. Titus, knowing Lexa is a roleblocker AND that shannon had a jailkeeper, claims a result indicating she is blocked, in spite of knowing Lexa is going to claim a result which will contradict her.
Titus is town, Lexa is a town roleblocker. Titus got blocked, yet Lexa truthfully blocked PranaDevil, meaning that Titus was blocked by either shannon or TheRealGin-N-Tonic.
OR.
How about, without speculating about any other things.
Titus is town. Lexa, the claimed roleblocker, roleblocked Titus, and lied about who she blocked.

That is the simplest scenario. No twists. No assumptions. No crazy wacky shenanigans. One simple theory, using known facts.

This is why the town should be lynching Lexa.
And this is why a failure to do so would be a perfect instance of why those fatal five flaws are cardinal sins of townplay.

There was a failure to evaluate Lexa's lie (strike against mindset, motive, and intention, three of my FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF THEORY WORK), failure to pay attention to circumstances (strike against circumstances, ANOTHER of my founding principles of theory work), failure to apply occam's razord (strike against KISS, ANOTHER of my founding principles of theory work), AND failure to do basic interactions (strike against interactions, one of THE first principles of theory work I did!). The only sin listed here which isn't a part of my theory work so much as it is basic common sense is the setup spec point.